Why does Greystones have so few pubs?

sagat2

Pick any comparable town in the country to Greystones and you would notice a distinct lack of pubs. Why is this the case? I heard a theory or two over the years, such as: Greystones falls under the same licensing scheme as the city hence the licences are two expensive, some gibberish to do with the Anglican church and the ever reliable: The Byrnes are more powerful than you could ever imagine. Does anyone know the real reason?

loyatemu

the bulk of pub licenses were handed out in the late 19th century - at the time Greystones was a small village mostly populated by wealthy protestant types who probably didn't spend a lot of time down the pub. There were quite a few hotels in the town back in the day though, but they probably specialized in the cream tea type of refreshment rather than serving up pints of plain.

By the time the population started to grow significantly in the late-70s and 80s the cost of a pub license had increased dramatically. I have heard stories of the Byrne group buying up some of the defunct hotel licenses (the Woodlands Hotel is one that is usually mentioned) - its probably just hearsay though.

As of this week there are 3 vacant pub premises in the town (the Greystones Inn, the Charlesland pub and the recently approved premises opposite Bels) along with the Delgany Inn (available for around €1m if anyone is interested) and the not-yet-burned-down La Touche Hotel.

Blandpebbles

Why do you need more than one pub.

Blanchflower

The Pioneer and Total Abstinence Association of the Sacred Heart (or PTAA) was traditionally very strong in the greater Greystones area arising from a visit one Sunday by Father Theobald Mathew who preached against the horrors of the demon drink. Giving the neighbouring village of Kilcoole as a warning to the people of Greystones against the curse of the drink Father Mathew convinced the local powers that be that drinking was very bad for the soul. As a result eminent local Councilllor Hugh Jarse in the local area plan for Greystones of 1900 designated that public houses were to be prohibited within the greater Greystones connurbation. This prohibition was relaxed during the Great Depression of 1929 following the tidal wave on the Greystones north beach which washed away a number of cottages.

pixbyjohn

http://www.fathermathew.ie/

This website commemerates the life and death of Father Theobald Mathew
(1790-1856).

44years after he died pubs were banned in Greystones, really!!!!

Blandpebbles

I think the mention of Hugh Jarse should have given it away as a joke.

The Bishop Basher

There was a rumour for years that the burned out house at the top of Redford had a licence attached to the premises and the licence of course was owned by........


Wait for it.....


The Byrne's.


Again this is probably pure hearsay.

Jimjay

Blandpebbles wrote: »

Why do you need more than one pub.

Choice and competition reduces prices, why do we need more than one supermarket? Same thing!
Also we are hoping that a new one would be better than what we have. We dont bother going to the pub in greystones because we feel unwelcome and the atmosphere to be honest is terrable. Dans is good but very small and the beach house is ok.
A pub in charlesland would be great for a quick pint the odd evening and for food when you cant be bothered to cook after a long day.

Annasopra

There's supposed to be a new pub opening beside the barbers just up from supervalu

trad

When did the Greystones Inn close? Was in there about a month ago, a work thing on a Saturday night about 20+ of us and about 4 locals.

jobless

Blanchflower wrote: »

The Pioneer and Total Abstinence Association of the Sacred Heart (or PTAA) was traditionally very strong in the greater Greystones area arising from a visit one Sunday by Father Theobald Mathew who preached against the horrors of the demon drink. Giving the neighbouring village of Kilcoole as a warning to the people of Greystones against the curse of the drink Father Mathew convinced the local powers that be that drinking was very bad for the soul. As a result eminent local Councilllor Hugh Jarse in the local area plan for Greystones of 1900 designated that public houses were to be prohibited within the greater Greystones connurbation. This prohibition was relaxed during the Great Depression of 1929 following the tidal wave on the Greystones north beach which washed away a number of cottages.

lol.. that gave me a chuckle...
the offerings in greystones pubwise is depressing.... dans is ok for a quiet pint... the beach house is the only place for a semi decent night out purely because they have music on a saturday night.. otherwise i dont bother...

danjo

There was a story about a plan to open a pub in the Tesco complex some years ago. The license was opposed by Guess Who.
Also heard that a premises (house) on Church Road oppsite the old Shell garage which opens one day a year to maintain it's license. This is reputedly owned by Guess Who.
Maybe this is all pub talk.:)

Merrilady

Somewhere else in the village would be nice, for those who like choice of course :rolleyes:

I do like The Willow or The Grove not sure the name, in Kilpedder and The Wicklow Arms is lovely with great grub, however the atmosphere/crowd can be hit n miss ( very fussy I am )
All of which is good, but if I get off the bus after work for a drink / bite to eat OR decide to head out with the Hubby at the weekend for a bite we both like to start and end the night with a few drinks, the choice is very limited in the village

Gone off topic again :eek:

d'Oracle

Swanner wrote: »

There was a rumour for years that the burned out house at the top of Redford had a licence attached to the premises and the licence of course was owned by........


Wait for it.....


The Byrne's.


Again this is probably pure hearsay.

Guuuuuyerrrrr. Those Pesky Byrnes.....

d'Oracle

danjo wrote: »

There was a story about a plan to open a pub in the Tesco complex some years ago. The license was opposed by Guess Who.
Also heard that a premises (house) on Church Road oppsite the old Shell garage which opens one day a year to maintain it's license. This is reputedly owned by Guess Who.
Maybe this is all pub talk.:)

Probably is, being that the old hotel that is there is actually apartments.
If'n we are talking about the same place.

Although I did hear rumours that their Evil Empire did contain a certain house in the Burnaby which was occupied by a family member and had a bar open once a year to maintain the licence.

I don't believe a word of it.
Frankly, I think its just the licencing laws.

Whatgoinon

Nothing to do with licensing laws. Nothing to do with those "Pesky Byrnes"! All to do with a complete social change, below cost selling of booze by supermarkets, drink driving laws(not a bad thing mind you) and massive overheads associated with having the pleasure of doing business in Wicklow. And the location of Greystones in relation to other places to go out ie bray and Dublin

Blandpebbles

And a good proportion of the people of Greystones no longer being booze hounds like days gone by.

d'Oracle

Whatgoinon wrote: »

Nothing to do with licensing laws. Nothing to do with those "Pesky Byrnes"! All to do with a complete social change, below cost selling of booze by supermarkets, drink driving laws(not a bad thing mind you) and massive overheads associated with having the pleasure of doing business in Wicklow. And the location of Greystones in relation to other places to go out ie bray and Dublin

There were never that many pubs in Greystones.
It has absolutely nothing to do with any of those things.

artvandelay48

What is the story with the Byrnes? Is this the same Byrne family that own Bradys/Byrne's in Shankill? Do they own most of greystones? Can we talk about it on the forum?

Answers on a postcard...

pixbyjohn

artvandelay48 wrote: »

What is the story with the Byrnes? Is this the same Byrne family that own Bradys/Byrne's in Shankill? Do they own most of greystones? Can we talk about it on the forum?

Answers on a postcard...

Brady's in Shankill was called Micky Byrne's but not the same Byrne as those who owned/own The Beach House, The Burnaby and some pubs in Dublin. There used to be 2 Byrne brothers who ran these premises. Liam lived on the Burnaby and it is his sons that run the 2 premises in Greystones now.

ciaran67

Blandpebbles wrote: »

And a good proportion of the people of Greystones no longer being booze hounds like days gone by.

You're have a laugh mate. Booze and being drunk is still very much all the rage in Gstones!

Blandpebbles

By booze hounds I meant slouched over the bar covered in cobwebs, with the wife and nippers at home crying for some scran.

Nowadays, its O'Briens for a bottle and off down the south beach..

Burnaby, Beach House, pretty empty most nights. The Carraig seems to be the only booze hound location still on the go, loads of cars outside there day or night, and of course (ahem) they all walk home after a few drinks.

cooper90

Having worked in the beachouse for 8 years I can assure you that the Byrne’s have a lock down on the 18 licenses in the town! There are a number of houses in the Burnaby area that have license’s attached to them, as I was in 3 of them over the years on the days that they were open for custom! Ie the staff come on down for a piss up and pay a euro a pint in accordance with licensing laws.

sagat2

cooper90 wrote: »

Having worked in the beachouse for 8 years I can assure you that the Byrne’s have a lock down on the 18 licenses in the town! There are a number of houses in the Burnaby area that have license’s attached to them, as I was in 3 of them over the years on the days that they were open for custom! Ie the staff come on down for a piss up and pay a euro a pint in accordance with licensing laws.

18 licenses? Seriously?

d'Oracle

cooper90 wrote: »

Having worked in the beachouse for 8 years I can assure you that the Byrne’s have a lock down on the 18 licenses in the town! There are a number of houses in the Burnaby area that have license’s attached to them, as I was in 3 of them over the years on the days that they were open for custom! Ie the staff come on down for a piss up and pay a euro a pint in accordance with licensing laws.

Never happened when I was around.
Was this over 10 years ago by chance?

Whatgoinon

cooper90 wrote: »

Having worked in the beachouse for 8 years I can assure you that the Byrne’s have a lock down on the 18 licenses in the town! There are a number of houses in the Burnaby area that have license’s attached to them, as I was in 3 of them over the years on the days that they were open for custom! Ie the staff come on down for a piss up and pay a euro a pint in accordance with licensing laws.

Anyone can get a license as long as they comply with any planning permission constraints associated with the application. They then have to fulfil criteria for the licensing application.
Pub licenses are not something locked away in a dusty safe to be traded. Licenses are applied for and the net cost ends up around 70k. Possibly a reason why they're so scarce

Annasopra

sagat2 wrote: »

18 licenses? Seriously?

Nah I think he made it up!

Annasopra

Whatgoinon wrote: »

Anyone can get a license as long as they comply with any planning permission constraints associated with the application. They then have to fulfil criteria for the licensing application.
Pub licenses are not something locked away in a dusty safe to be traded. Licenses are applied for and the net cost ends up around 70k. Possibly a reason why they're so scarce

I didn't actually think that was the case at all, have you got a link to back up your point?

d'Oracle

Johnnymcg wrote: »

I didn't actually think that was the case at all, have you got a link to back up your point?

All the licensing laws are available, just like any law, on the statutebook website.

Good luck finding the actual bits you are looking for.:D

loyatemu

Whatgoinon wrote: »

Anyone can get a license as long as they comply with any planning permission constraints associated with the application. They then have to fulfil criteria for the licensing application.
Pub licenses are not something locked away in a dusty safe to be traded. Licenses are applied for and the net cost ends up around 70k. Possibly a reason why they're so scarce

up until the reform of the licensing laws 10 or so years ago, thats exactly how they worked - you had to extinguish an existing license to get a new one and they changed hands for £100K+ (much like taxi plates at the time). I think you actually had to buy up 2 rural licenses to open an urban pub also.

These days the main barrier to entry is the sheer cost of setting up a new premises - the days of the small country pub are over, which is a shame.

Mahogany

Blandpebbles wrote: »

Why do you need more than one pub.

Competition.

Blandpebbles

Same prices, same decor, same helpful staff.. Where's the competition.

patwicklow

its not just Greystones that is lacking in pubs just go to any town or village in the country. Athlone town 16 pubs closed there,waterford,wexford,even my village avoca four closed the vale view hotel,the valley hotel,nagles bar,and a great little pub&shop called Browns after over 140years of trading also gone,
There is shebeens popping up all over the place,and many more will i think as the goose that laid the golden egg is well and truely gone for pubs as they priced them selfs out of the market.

d'Oracle

patwicklow wrote: »

its not just Greystones that is lacking in pubs just go to any town or village in the country. Athlone town 16 pubs closed there,waterford,wexford,even my village avoca four closed the vale view hotel,the valley hotel,nagles bar,and a great little pub&shop called Browns after over 140years of trading also gone,
There is shebeens popping up all over the place,and many more will i think as the goose that laid the golden egg is well and truely gone for pubs as they priced them selfs out of the market.

Again, Greystones has always been "the town with no pubs"
The whole Drink-driving, recession etc has no relevance here.

pixbyjohn

O great were the weekend nights in the Beach house, Marshie Mc Laughlin , Jimmy Hogan, Eamonn Brosnan and many many more singing with super accompaniment. The La Touche for a quiet drink. Skipped the Burnaby;), Then the Woodlands Hotel lounge with a big open fire blazing as the pianist played good music to his hearts content, then on to the Rugby Club disco on a Saturday night to bop to Skid Row or the Horslips etc. Aww sure we had a great time and this was without cars or taxis.

The Guide

Horslips Ah the Memories!

Blandpebbles

I don't remember there being a pub on Memory Lane.

Annasopra

Blandpebbles wrote: »

I don't remember there being a pub on Memory Lane.

that imaginary one, the one that only opens one day a year

d'Oracle

I hear the byrnes own it too.

Fiachra2

Blandpebbles wrote: »

Why do you need more than one pub.

To give people a choice. I like Danns, my wife doesnt because its not very comfortable. I also like the middle bar but I know lots of people who have never been even in it.
I even know people who like the burnaby and think its much better now than it used to be!

If there were more choice then more people would drink in pubs. The secret in a new pub in Greystones is that it should be small and owner managed. not run by an absentee landlord trying to make a fortune. Those days are gone.

Blandpebbles

How is that secret to success?

The economic truth is that Greystones does not need more than 2 pubs. 2 pubs have remained for years. The inclusion of more has only lead to closures, but not the original two.

d'Oracle

That's not necessarily true.
What pubs have opened over the years?

I can think of one.

Bennigans doesn't count.

Blandpebbles

Scripts
Woodlands Lodge
Greystones Inn
Theatre Bar
Bennigans
Latreks
whatever it was called before that
the woodlands hotel
the rugby club disco bar
and Bennigans

Charlie-Bravo

whatever about 12 licenses locally, whatever about Script and the follow-on renamings, whatever about Bennigans (more attributed to the La Touche closing its doors); there is only one pub on the main street. There should be a choice, and not a wine bar or delicatessen, but another pub.

Unfortunately, and I will say it first, any new main street pub in Greystones will attract a younger crowd, and it will get itself a name - The management need to be cute and think wisely about decor (not like the original script which was shocking), layout, convenience, comfort, and so on.

Blandpebbles

All different owners all failed businesses. There is simply not enough demand for another pub.
Young people go to bray and bars remain open. It's about location, facilities, demand and scale.

The lamenting of a few boarders does not a demand make.

Annasopra

Blandpebbles wrote: »

All different owners all failed businesses. There is simply not enough demand for another pub.
Young people go to bray and bars remain open. It's about location, facilities, demand and scale.

The lamenting of a few boarders does not a demand make.

That makes no sense whatsoever

There is enough demand for people to go to Bray

Jimjay

There seems to be only one person writing that they dont want a new pub!
Why do pubs close down? Because they are crap.
I dont go to the current 2 pubs. I tried greystones inn a couple of times, it was not good, didnt go again.
If a new pub opens i will try a couple of times, if its crap i will stop going if it is good i will go regular.

A good pub will stay open and have customers.
Two not so good pubs will stay open and have customers as there is nowhere else to go.

Fiachra2

I think its probably not so much an issue of "ggod pub" "bad pub" as one of variety and standard of service.
It is not correct to assume that there is a certain level of demand and that increasing the supply of pubs will simply spread that demand more thinly. Any marketing person knows that you can stimulate demand by providing the right product.
I sugested a small pub simply because it is cheap to run and much easier to create an atmosphere. I sugested an owner managed business becuse it might overcome an issue which probably effects the success of pubs in Greystones which is the poor service. Staff in both pubs are badly trained, slow, not customer focussed and in some cases quite rude. They wouldn't survive a night in many other pubs.
There are plenty of rural communities with populations a fraction of the size of Greystones which support a significantly greater number of pubs. Those premises are not packed -even at the weekends-but they are ticking over and as the owners are running them and simply trying to make a decent living they work reasonably well as a business.

Blandpebbles

The number of people going to Pubs in Bray is enough to achieve reasonable equilibrium for the number of pubs vs punters in Bray, however it is not enough people to provide the required demand to open a new pub in Greystones.

In terms of marketing a pub, both pubs in Greystones remain open despite alleged bad service, without marketing of any large scale, because there is enough demand for them to be there.


The Greystones Inn closed because there was not enough demand for the services it provided, nor could it draw customers from other pubs.

In this case, the Greystones Inn was deemed as an inferior subsitute for the other two pubs in Greystones.

When planning to provide any new service or product it is vital to understand the elasticity or otherwise of your competitors product or service.

Finally a small pub does not guarantee success, as they will not be able to purchase product for resale at a competitive price vs a well established larger pub, combined with the limit capacity, they will be required to charge more for drinks thus alienating their potential clients.

Dr. Blandpebbles, Bachelor in Business, Psychology, Economics and Management

jobless

the greystones in was in a bad location i think that was its major downfall... had it been on the main street then i think it would be still open. Living in the area i dont go to the existing pubs because they have zero atmosphere (except when beach house has a band on). I would definately go somewhere else if there was a choice but until then most of my nights out will be outside greystones...

loyatemu

La Touche\Bennigans\Lautrex closed due to property speculation
Script\Woodlands Lodge\Greystones Inn closed because its a terribly designed building in a bad location

I'm not sure a small pub can really be viable these days though, unless the owner also owns the premises. Being on the main street would definitely be an improvement though.

Don't forget too that Greystones and Delgany are effectively the same town these days, and theres another 3 pubs (was 4) at that end of the town (which do draw a lot of their clientele from Greystones).