Top or Rear stove exit better?

sooty_soupy

Try section 1.38 of this document http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2010.pdf

A simple search for the documents you mentioned on google, and the people you claim are unfamiliar, can arm themselves with the recommended guidelines. You will need the ability to read and understand them before opening your mouth and falsely questioning a professionals integrity. This may be more prudent in future. After all, I have nothing to gain by giving this info, as the Republic has it's own breed of merry men fitting these things….and God knows we get the people asking advice…before and after up here in the North.

Good DIYers are the very reason these forums have such a following. People are trying to learn from others mistakes. Playing on peoples fears is also a bit strong. I have just come from a site visit on behalf of a customer that bought a stove and flue from a plumbing counter, and he fitted it himself…but guess what…he knew what he was doing, he's fitted a load of stoves before. This became a problem when his bedroom carpet caught fire from the vitreous enamel flue passing through his joists, through the bedroom, and into the attic, before twin wall flue going through the tiles….1 metre of it…just to be "safe"….oh and his insurance company's loss adjuster laughed and are washing their hands of him.

What people charge for their work is neither here nor there. People are not obliged to pay it. You perhaps feel you know what is involved in fitting these units, and perhaps you know the price of materials, but with all things in life, you get what you pay for. After all, there are different grades of flue, different manufacturers, different constructions…with some being more robust than others….fair enough. If I choose to drive a Ferrari and you, a Ford, so be it. You will get to your destination as will I.

There…and not one expletive. ;-)

ronan0

Well look,

You referred to 2 standards. The Irish standard emphasises minimum flue size, and so does the NI one although it goes a little further by saying one must:

"ensure an adequate discharge velocity of the flue gas that will prevent flow reversal problems but will not impose excessive flow resistance."

So, I take that to mean, yes, a larger flue area may well be fine. But TEST it to check for the above conditions.

Then subsequently you refer us to a much more comprehensive UK standard. Again, there is a lot about minimum flue side. But there is one line there that you referred us to.

It says: 1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.

Now, the language of these standards is very specific. They say MAY need to be relined... And "oversized flues CAN be unsafe.

But not necessarily.

a. Drop your Android down on a rope to check condition of chimney and joins.

b. Do a smoke test.

... There are many factors to count in the above (thus the language used). - How seasoned is your wood, are you burning pine, how high is your chimney, how well does it draw... Do you allow it to smoulder overnight, are you continually burning at lowest output...

An example of what I'm driving at - Look towards motorbike owners. Now, their machines are potential killers. But there are two different types of owners. - There is the guy who buys a ten to fifteen year old machine and looks after his bike all himself and makes sure it is safe for him to ride; and then there is the guy who buys it brand new and drops it into the dealer at the required service intervals (or sometimes not, unfortunately).

Which is the safer owner?

The other analogy in the motorbike example is cost barrier to ownership. Now you look to the US or Canada where stoves have been in wide use for much longer, you will find that a majority of owners are the savvy DIYers. - They are very familiar with the "art of stove operation and maintenance". Also of acquiring and appraising fuel etc.

... So there are two reasons why I am driven to expletives - (1) Is that any real discussion on stove DIY on boards.ie gets quickly shut down by vested interests coming on here and bamboozling people with talk of regulations and horror stories (2) the stove industry seems to be taking extraordinary levels of profit for the kind of work they do, and goods they distribute, through (tacit) cartelism. One example of this is the chimney re-lining - a job where the materials can be acquired fairly cheaply, and can be completed in half a day (at most) by an experienced fitter and his apprentice or intern. - They clear extraordinary levels of profit for this work which they insist to all is essential etc.

As to your latest example of stove catastrophe, what was the guy doing passing a non-insulated flue through a ceiling or joists? That is very basic knowledge. Knowledge that might very easily be shared on boards like this if discussion and compilation of respources was encouraged.

Finally - you say, "People are not obliged to pay it.". I disagree. They ARE obliged. - in the same way as when you go to your pharmacist or solicitor or anyone of the other professional cartels operating in this country. They have no choice.

So let's try and open up the area to competent DIYers so that people can have more choice.

PeteHeat

I take exception to the content and language used in your posts.

There is No Cartel operating in the stove industry North or South of Ireland that I am aware of, if there is one perhaps I should be offended as I haven't been asked to join?

The professionals in the industry are working to four guidelines, Building Regulations, Hetas, Manufacturers Instructions (where available) and Good Working Practice.

As to your reference re: installers using an apprentice or intern, is that meant to offend further?

Employing an apprentice is a very costly road to take for anyone who is hoping to make money, as to interns is that meant to suggest employers don't pay their workers?

Your posts suggest that you haven't a clue about running a business, there is the small matter of overheads, expensive equipment which must be maintained, HSA Regulations which must be complied with, insurances etc etc.

I have never apolgised for making a profit, it happens to be what keeps me in business, the business that survives by offering goods and services at competitive rates.

Please open your own outlet and commence supplying and installing stoves and learn from the experience, the first thing you will learn is there is no cartel, the second there is no easy money, and the third; no lets see how you get on with the first two.

We ply our trade in an open market often being expected to compete against part time DIY'ers, incompetent installers who join the business for the heating season and of course the type who go into the business but never intend to provide an after sales back up service.

Well when you can't beat em join em, so I intend to open an online shop where I don't have to provide advice (often advising against a stove) and charging for the after sales service.

Of course I will still have the top level service for those who wish to avail of and pay for it.

You don't have to avail of any of the goods or services I offer, so strike one off your imaginary Cartel.
.

ronan0 wrote: »

Well look,

You referred to 2 standards. The Irish standard emphasises minimum flue size, and so does the NI one although it goes a little further by saying one must:

"ensure an adequate discharge velocity of the flue gas that will prevent flow reversal problems but will not impose excessive flow resistance."

So, I take that to mean, yes, a larger flue area may well be fine. But TEST it to check for the above conditions.

Then subsequently you refer us to a much more comprehensive UK standard. Again, there is a lot about minimum flue side. But there is one line there that you referred us to.

It says: 1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.

Now, the language of these standards is very specific. They say MAY need to be relined... And "oversized flues CAN be unsafe.

But not necessarily.

a. Drop your Android down on a rope to check condition of chimney and joins.

b. Do a smoke test.

... There are many factors to count in the above (thus the language used). - How seasoned is your wood, are you burning pine, how high is your chimney, how well does it draw... Do you allow it to smoulder overnight, are you continually burning at lowest output...

An example of what I'm driving at - Look towards motorbike owners. Now, their machines are potential killers. But there are two different types of owners. - There is the guy who buys a ten to fifteen year old machine and looks after his bike all himself and makes sure it is safe for him to ride; and then there is the guy who buys it brand new and drops it into the dealer at the required service intervals (or sometimes not, unfortunately).

Which is the safer owner?

The other analogy in the motorbike example is cost barrier to ownership. Now you look to the US or Canada where stoves have been in wide use for much longer, you will find that a majority of owners are the savvy DIYers. - They are very familiar with the "art of stove operation and maintenance". Also of acquiring and appraising fuel etc.

... So there are two reasons why I am driven to expletives - (1) Is that any real discussion on stove DIY on boards.ie gets quickly shut down by vested interests coming on here and bamboozling people with talk of regulations and horror stories (2) the stove industry seems to be taking extraordinary levels of profit for the kind of work they do, and goods they distribute, through (tacit) cartelism. One example of this is the chimney re-lining - a job where the materials can be acquired fairly cheaply, and can be completed in half a day (at most) by an experienced fitter and his apprentice or intern. - They clear extraordinary levels of profit for this work which they insist to all is essential etc.

As to your latest example of stove catastrophe, what was the guy doing passing a non-insulated flue through a ceiling or joists? That is very basic knowledge. Knowledge that might very easily be shared on boards like this if discussion and compilation of respources was encouraged.

Finally - you say, "People are not obliged to pay it.". I disagree. They ARE obliged. - in the same way as when you go to your pharmacist or solicitor or anyone of the other professional cartels operating in this country. They have no choice.

So let's try and open up the area to competent DIYers so that people can have more choice.

sooty_soupy

Congratulations Pete. Very well answered. The simple fact is that nobody is obliged to pay our prices. Clearview Stoves recommend the way they want their stoves fitted to get the most efficient and safe use out of their stoves, and we offer the service of doing so. If some muppet wants to fit a stove against manufacturers instructions, building regs HETAS guidelines etc etc, then we will sell them the stove and they are on their own.

You mention the comprehensive UK document. I was asked to visit the Irish Standards office a good number of years ago by someone who was attempting to set up an Association in the South. I was led to believe the standard was not in place and that I was being asked to help in the guidance of such a document. It was rather embarrassing to find that the Irish had adopted the same Document J as was applicable in the UK, stating that the document was ideal for what they required. I guess there is a dumbed down version if you wish to comply with the VERY MINIMUM.

"An oversize flue can be unsafe" Of course it can. If you shove a piece of 5 or6" black pipe inside an 8" clay liner, with a plug of fire cement, (or if you are one particular DIY fool, that thought paying us was too expensive, the proceeded to destroy the top of the brand new stove he had bought from us with dripping pink expandable foam product while filling the house with toxic gases) you create a trough. When this fills with soot, you are just waiting for the show to start. A real chimney fire after a slumbering stove has built up enough fuel in the chimney is possibly one of the frightening experiences you will witness.

DIYers need understand the complexities and dynamics of how a flue actually works. You need to know why it is important to maintain flue gas temperatures, reduce the flue dimensions to ensure adequate velocity of the combustion gas discharge, create a smooth surface area, with the minimum of bends to reduce the risk of condensates and combustibles building up in the flue, and then things like termination points of flues, ensuring adequate combustion air for every KW of heat produced, distances from combustibles, correct hearth dimensions and thicknesses to comply with current fire regulations, and the list goes on and on. But until you know all of this, then perhaps rather than questioning the people trying to give sound guidance on good practice, and safe installation, while making a living, you should be thankful we are giving our time to answer some of the genuine queries. I remember back in my younger days driving my first car to the garage to get brake pads fitted. Watching what he was doing I remarked to Maurice "that looked easy enough" on completion while paying the bill. The old mechanic looked at me and smiled. He replied "you can always watch what I'm doing, but can't tell what I'm thinking son…be safe out there" I have still only ever fitted brake pads to my push bike.

The latest catastrophe, as you put it, was fitted by the homeowner using components bought from a plumb centre, and was fitted the way he was told to do so by a young guy behind the counter, apparently working there for about two weeks and still a teenager, who handed over all the materials. What did he know about chimneys and flues?……In words you would understand Ronan0, F**K all. But the company have washed their hands of all responsibility and this homeowner….oh and DIYer…. is left with a destroyed house, and no insurance. I guess the teenager should have gone on to a forum and learnt from the other DIYers before advising the general public…sure then everyone would sleep safe in bed. After all these things are only heating appliances that you light a fire in, which in turn exhausts the harmful gases of combustion out of a flue passing through a home. Any dick-head should be able to fit them….what can go wrong with Boards.ie to help you out. I'm thinking of making a small nuclear power plant to generate electricity in the spare bathroom, if anyone can point me in the right direction for advice.

You claim people HAVE TO PAY US…you are oh so wrong, and might I be so bold as to say you are making a fool of yourself for stating otherwise. There are plenty of idiots in hardware shops, plumbing counters, and car boot sales with a wee mate that can "stick a stove in for you" We price to do jobs the way we can confidently leave the appliance as a safe and well installed unit which is fit for purpose every day. Some will pay it, some won't. Others want to take product and fit it themselves. Others will buy online and take the gamble they don't need warranty or after sales. This is the world we live in. Do what you wish, but don't come on to an open forum mouthing about professional companies doing a professional job especially when you are using the gob****es in the industry as a yard stick to measure us against.

fozz10

this is a genuine q. i had my stove fitted and the manual stated nothing only ensure the chimney is clean and in good condition OTHERWISE may need to be lined. had it cleaned and checked it was fine. stove fitted with cast iron flue attached to the chimney flue as in the instructions and diagram. also ive worked on heaps of new builds where the same was done. do the experienced fitters think there an issue with this .

PeteHeat

fozz10 wrote: »

this is a genuine q. i had my stove fitted and the manual stated nothing only ensure the chimney is clean and in good condition OTHERWISE may need to be lined. had it cleaned and checked it was fine. stove fitted with cast iron flue attached to the chimney flue as in the instructions and diagram. also ive worked on heaps of new builds where the same was done. do the experienced fitters think there an issue with this .

Yes, most manuals refer to local regulations simply because there is no one size fits all specification for the installation of a stove.

I had a visit from a supplier offering adapters for the new flues you refer to, knowing how the product as one I refuse to sell (please bear in mind I like to make a profit) I asked the following questions;

Where in the regulations or guidelines are they covered?

Are they covered by product liability insurance?

Do the manufacturers recommend them?

They are not covered in the regulations or guidelines.

They are not covered by any product liability insurance.

Only one manufacturer offered them as a possible method of installation with the appropriate disclaimers.

They are cheap to buy, easy to use and have the potential to be extremely dangerous.

At the time they were selling some 300 units per week.

I then asked who is liable for the inevitable damage or possible loss of life they can cause?

The simple answer is the DIY or incompetent installer, the product (adapter) is manufactured and sold without any recommendations of how to use them or where.

Chimney fires can kill, Carbon Monoxide can kill Yes even using solid fuel.

I don't need anyone pointing the finger at me saying they suffered a loss because I wanted a €20.00 profit, therefore I don't stock them, sell them or use them.

.

fozz10

Sorry I think your talkin about a different product. I'm talking proper heavy cast iron not that light steel with enamel that all the hardware Stores sell . Heavy duty cast iron straight from the Factory.

PeteHeat

I would expect cast iron pipe which was usually used for soil stacks etc to be likely to crack when subjected to the possible high temperatures that flue products are designed to withstand.

Of course if the manufacturer can answer yes to the same questions I asked about stainless steel adapters then it means the product is fit for purpose.

Personally I haven't used cast iron flue pipe.

.

fozz10 wrote: »

Sorry I think your talkin about a different product. I'm talking proper heavy cast iron not that light steel with enamel that all the hardware Stores sell . Heavy duty cast iron straight from the Factory.

fozz10

Ok I'm not sure your gettin me at all. it's made from the same cast iron my Stanley stove is made from. it's the most expensive flue on the market the shop rarely stocks them as people just buy the cheaper product. I ordered it from the factory myself. I've had the same set up with my oisin for 9 years as none of the cheaper stuff was around then it doesnt
Crack.. My question was do ye see a problem with connection to the chimney with all this lining talk I keep reading. Yet my manual only states line if flue is not sound. I've never lined it for the last 9 years either yer all I read is you need to lline it.

PeteHeat

I do not sell, service or install that particular brand, if they manufacture and sell a cast iron pipe as a flue pipe then I would expect it they deem it suitable for their products, the same manufacturer is the only one I know of who recommended the adapter I referred to earlier in their installation manuals.

When being tested by independent laboratories the flue from the stove is the same size (diameter) as the stove spigot.

The results obtained by the testing laboratory are what should be used when marketing the output and efficiency of the stove, the larger the spigot more air is needed for the flue to work effectively, therefore if a stove with a 125mm spigot is connected to a 200mm diameter flue more of the heat generated (heat) from the fuel is sent up the flue.

Yes the problem I see with your description is the stove is not working as efficiently as it should be.

fozz10

ok. im not too concerned if a small bit is lost. i have no issue with the performance every rad in the house is usually roasting all evening and often a bath or so is had and still hot water in the morning.if thats my only concern im content. cheers for the reply.

PeteHeat wrote: »

I do not sell, service or install that particular brand, if they manufacture and sell a cast iron pipe as a flue pipe then I would expect it they deem it suitable for their products, the same manufacturer is the only one I know of who recommended the adapter I referred to earlier in their installation manuals.

When being tested by independent laboratories the flue from the stove is the same size (diameter) as the stove spigot.

The results obtained by the testing laboratory are what should be used when marketing the output and efficiency of the stove, the larger the spigot more air is needed for the flue to work effectively, therefore if a stove with a 125mm spigot is connected to a 200mm diameter flue more of the heat generated (heat) from the fuel is sent up the flue.

Yes the problem I see with your description is the stove is not working as efficiently as it should be.

fozz10

and my father has worked there for 30 years and theyve always considered cast iron as the best. thats all they make out there and always have. cast iron matt and casrt iron enamel. there extremely heavy duty