Top or Rear stove exit better?

johneym

Folks,

have got 4 quotations from stove installers to install a stove.

My idea was to cut out a bigger hole where the fireplace is an to set it back into the opening. Using top exit the flue would be straight up.
2 installers with 20 years experience said this is very bad and dangerous as all soot, deposits etc will fall back into the stove. They said the pictures I see of stoves like this are a myth and only in magazines.
He showed me pictures where black soot/cresole was coming out through the chimney walls on the outside.
If they did it this way they guranteed me to have problems within a few years. They can do it this way but will not garantee it. They say the best way is out the back and then up. Also a builder I have spoken to claims a bend is always necessary for the draw.
The other 2 installers will do it this way and claim top exit is always best. And straight up is the way to go. This is the natural course for the smoke. 1 is a very experienced technician.
But is this not quite a valid point about the soot etc with a straight up flue? Where will the soot go and if it falls back into the stove, is this not bad as it
might clog something up?
Anyone who has a top exit stove maybe you could let me know if you have had any issues with this?

Thanks very much in advance

John

demanufactured

Its either /or...niether one is right or wrong , its all down to asthetics.

heinbloed

2 installers with 20 years experience said this is very bad and dangerous as all soot, deposits etc will fall back into the stove. They said the pictures I see of stoves like this are a myth and only in magazines.

This is true. On the continent such installations as seen here in most Irish households are illegal. My sister in law had such an installation done, the mixture of soot and condensing water and rain running down the chimney into the stove, flowing out at the flue pipe joints.
Further on there is no way left of cleaning the chimney and consequently any atempt to do so means throwing soot into the stove and the flue pipe. Soot is a carcinogenic substance b.t.w..

Also a builder I have spoken to claims a bend is always necessary for the draw.

This is rubbish.Talk to a real builder, someone who has experienced the laws of physics and knows how to make the most of them. Selling myth and mystery is not a builder's job.

Where will the soot go and if it falls back into the stove, is this not bad as it
might clog something up?

Your doubts are justified. In case a larger deposit of ash and soot falls from the chimney into the flue pipe it might block it and then you'll die of CO poisoning. Or the house burns down...

That is the reason why these installations are absolute illegal. But subsidised by the SEI, well, killing people makes them to zero energy consumers. Ask your fire safety officer.

A chimney designed to operate as a flue gas duct for an open fire is by no way suitable to be operated with a stove. It must be altered, usually by reducing it's diameter.

danjo

Contact the supplier/manufacturer. Why do you think the design gives you the option of straight up or out the back?

Where does the soot and residue go when you have a bend?

The most important thing about a stove is to keep the flue system clean as this will give you best efficiency.

I am not saying which is right or wrong but I would be wary of advice without knowing the make and model of your stove and the details of your flue.
Ask the manufacturer.

heinbloed

Danjo asks:

Where does the soot and residue go when you have a bend?

It must go downwards into the soot chamber. Check your central heating boiler's chimney build-up. The soot chamber sits below the flue pipe inlet. It has a little fire proof door to empty out the soot.
It is a legal requirement.

DoneDL

I am not a chimney expert, but I would not install a wood burning or multi -fuel stove without suggesting a liner and suitable cowl and you didn't mention this has been suggested to you. As mentioned in the other threads stoves and open fires are different beasts. The reason that you get staining and creosote coming out the wall is because the chimney is damaged or failing. Most likely from age but probably from poor construction. Call the manufacturer, ask for technical and heed their advice

ntpm

DoneDL wrote: »

I am not a chimney expert, but I would not install a wood burning or multi -fuel stove without suggesting a liner and suitable cowl and you didn't mention this has been suggested to you. As mentioned in the other threads stoves and open fires are different beasts. The reason that you get staining and creosote coming out the wall is because the chimney is damaged or failing. Most likely from age but probably from poor construction. Call the manufacturer, ask for technical and heed their advice

Would agree with DoneDL.
Generally I would get the chimney thouroughly cleaned and inspected by a reputable company first. If you are going to reuse the existing chimney you will need to use a reducer 9"-5" ( depending on your cimney/stove spigot size).
As for top or back exit, the manufacturers of stoves spend thousands on research and development. Their stoves (if they carry IS, BS or EN etc stamps) must meet certain standards regarding safety).

Most Back and Top exit stoves have a baffles that can be removed for direct sweeping/cleaning of chimney (from the chimney pot downwards).

With regards of the existing chimney, if in doubt I have utilised a flexible flue which relines the chimney and this is connected directly in to the back of the stove or via a matching flue pipe in to the top of the stove.

I recently was asked by a customer to open up a chimney and recess a stove (similar to your idea). They were concerned about losing floor space. ( and liked the look of the stove in the magazine .. spooky heh).

After careful deliberation and investigation I found that the existing gatherer was too low to allow for a decent top opening flue pipe without major re-working of the chimney.
I also pointed out that inserting a stove into a recess would reduce the effectivness of heating the room ( air circulation / convection would be hampered).
Finally as the stove would have to be centred to the existing chimney flue/lining would have meant that the stove and hearth/plinth was only going to be recessed by about 9-12".
The customer final decision was to go with flexible flue, use vermiculite to insulate between flue and existing chimney, back entrance, block up opeing, and have the stove sit in front of chimney.
They are very happy with it and saved a small fortune on modifiying the chimney. Food For Thought.:)

johneym

thanks very much lads for the replies,

the stove is an solid fuel olymberyl aidan 21 KW with boiler. I will be using a 6 inch flexi flue and cowl and will be back filling with vermiculite.
One of the installers wanted to put a back exit without a soot box. Soot boxes are a thing of the past he says. Both the top and back baffle can be romoved for cleaning purposes.
He didnt think it necessary but if I went this route I would use a 90 degree T or 45 degree T with a 45 bend would be used. This might be a holding where the soot would go.
As regards the builders suggestion, he is a professional builder. Any older people will all tell you the same thing about a bend for the draw. My grand uncle for one who is 87 years old and has seen many stoves/ranges installed in his day. All I am saying is that there must have been something in it. But I am not really concerned about this at all and think the draw will be good regardless.
I need to make a decision one way or the other soon. But I do not want problems down the line and want the best possible installation.
Unfortunately the room is not big enough to allow the stove too far out in the room. Even a little back is a help.
I would like to hear from someone who has a top exit straight up flue and if you had any issues.

Thanks a lot,

John

Micky Dolenz

heinbloed wrote: »

That is the reason why these installations are absolute illegal. But subsidised by the SEI, well, killing people makes them to zero energy consumers. Ask your fire safety officer.

Do SEI offer grants to fit solid fuel stoves? I didn't think they did.

Carlow52

johneym wrote: »

Folks,

....
He showed me pictures where black soot/cresole was coming out through the chimney walls on the outside.

Some of the worst crap I have read on boards.

heinbloed wrote:

It is a legal requirement.

Source please.

heinbloed wrote:

On the continent such installations as seen here in most Irish households are illegal.

Indeed
See Aura 1 and 3 here
http://www.vardeovne.dk/page.asp?sideid=165&zcs=53

DoneDL

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

Do SEI offer grants to fit solid fuel stoves? I didn't think they did.

No they don't nor for wood burning stoves, more to do with V.A.T. than the environment I would guess, then how do you tax a tree?

heinbloed

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinbloed
That is the reason why these installations are absolute illegal. But subsidised by the SEI, well, killing people makes them to zero energy consumers. Ask your fire safety officer.



Do SEI offer grants to fit solid fuel stoves? I didn't think they did.

Yes, they do. But it must be designed to burn pellets or timber chips only, at least some fuel that might be renewed.

heinbloed

The poster Carlow52 has a few questions. Last first, a propaganda cataloge is linked showing faked installations....

Quote:
Originally Posted by heinbloed
On the continent such installations as seen here in most Irish households are illegal.

Indeed
See Aura 1 and 3 here
http://www.vardeovne.dk/page.asp?sideid=165&zcs=53

The last two pictures in the link show the very same stove/boiler in the very same situation for propaganda reasons. To sell, not to inform. Prove: the same flame picture, first (maybe) with an external flue which is not shown and second with an upwards flue shown.
This is a fake! Targeting idiots? Well, they find plenty this way (smiley)....


Now the first statement of Carlow25's post, doubting about the real world's pictures. I quote again

Quote:
Originally Posted by johneym
Folks,

....
He showed me pictures where black soot/cresole was coming out through the chimney walls on the outside.

Some of the worst crap I have read on boards.

I have seen the very same, my relatives have such a shoddy installation since 2 years where the condensate/rain is dripping down the from the flue joints and junctions. They had a chimney fire before with the open fire, it won't be the last.....

In my (previously) own Irish home the chimney was leaking. The plaster falling off, the chimney wet and sodden. Full of creosote/tar. A new house, build 1990.

On the EU continent a combustion installation must ALWAYS be acompanied by a certificate of a fire safety engineer or-with smaller installations above 8kW - by a chimney sweeper's certificate. A chimney sweeper on the EU continent had a training of at least three years before he/she is allowed to work without supervision. Not to mention certifying anything...
Source ? EU legislations and own experience.

Maybe Carlow52 will link us the INSTALLATION MANUALS from his propaganda link? So we all can check more than advertising slogans and colourfully faked pictures?



Comparing a double lined stainless flue ( linked by Carlow52 , see above) with the proposed build-up of the OP is going into the direction of, I quote,

Some of the worst crap...

Has Carlow52 understood the OPs question at all ? Turning an open fireplace chimney into a stove chimney and wondering if the connection should be made horizontal or vertical?

I doubt it....

johneym

Thanks Heinbloed,

you are a correct.

And you are a gentleman.

Unlike others.

John

sooty_soupy

Strange that I am dealing with someone called Michael about the same issue. I can show you any Gods amount of photos of tar coming through walls, however this is normally caused by one of two reasons. Either the flue was not correctly cleaned prior to a flexible steel liner being installed, or there is no liner installed. The staining only occurs when flue gasses cool and condense inside the chimney and cause condensates (which is the correct name for these moistures that cause the staining) to leech into the structure. The flexible steel liner will encourage flue gasses to remain warm, and especially if the steel is insulated with vermiculite which we always do. The steel sleeve is installed in one continuous length and any moistures are channeled into the stove to evaporated again once the stove comes back up to a high temperature. This flue is kept the same diameter as the outlet on the stove to maximise efficiency of the appliance. I give talks in Northern Ireland for Building control on flue systems and as chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, I train all our registered chimney technicians in the North too. You guys need to get a copy of Document J from here http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1650,en.pdf

Clearly you need to be making sure the flue is vertical where possible for solid fuel. My apologies to the moderators here, but I would suggest you all visit a certain web site of a company in county down that sells stoves...if you know what I mean when you go to google. You will see some very interesting images.

As far as deposits falling, if they fall down through a vertical flue into the stove they are easily accessible to you the end user while cleaning your stove, which is preferable to them accumulating out of reach. A stove can be vented from the rear or the top, but if you are coming off the rear, the maximum your flue can travel horizontal is 6" 150mm before it rises, and a "t" section is recommended to collect soot at a lower level that on the bend. The bottom of the "t" becomes a sump. You will not stop soot from falling if you neglect to sweep and maintain the flue, but if it does fall, I can assure you are a registered chimney technician, I would prefer it falls onto your throat plate in the stove, so you can safely remove it during routine cleaning. The "t" sump can be cleared during the sweeping process, which should be carried out every six months to a year depending on use. Remember if you use dry fuel, in an insualted steel flue, the gasses should not cool enough to cause the build up of soot. The only time significant soot build up occurs is if you have fitted a modern efficient stove to a clay liner which is designed for open fire use where flue gas temperatures are always high because of the excessive heat loss. Let me ask you why you are fitting a stove in the first place...if it is to help efficienty heat your home, then install a stove properly and do your homework first. Leaders in the UK for efficiency are Charnwood made in the Isle of Wight and Clearview (famous for Clear window) made in Shropshire, and then Morso and Jotul are two good Scandanavian stoves.

Bends in chimneys are not used to increase flue performance. I understand you may have been told this in the past, but I can assure you than most chimneys in mainland Europe, America and Canada are vertical. The reason bends were introduced to chimneys in the UK and Ireland was to ensure the chimney terminated at the highest point of the roof to ensure that any direction of wind did not cause a blowdown or downdraught problem, also know in the industry as positive pressure problems. It was a fact that old chimneys always seemed to work well, and therefore people mistakenly thought it was something to do with needing bends, but this was not the case. In days gone by it would have been much easier for builders to build chimneys vertically than put bends in them but it was necessity rather than choice.

I trust this helps

David Campbell

sooty_soupy

ntpm wrote: »

Would agree with DoneDL.
Generally I would get the chimney thouroughly cleaned and inspected by a reputable company first. If you are going to reuse the existing chimney you will need to use a reducer 9"-5" ( depending on your cimney/stove spigot size).
As for top or back exit, the manufacturers of stoves spend thousands on research and development. Their stoves (if they carry IS, BS or EN etc stamps) must meet certain standards regarding safety).

Most Back and Top exit stoves have a baffles that can be removed for direct sweeping/cleaning of chimney (from the chimney pot downwards).

With regards of the existing chimney, if in doubt I have utilised a flexible flue which relines the chimney and this is connected directly in to the back of the stove or via a matching flue pipe in to the top of the stove.

I recently was asked by a customer to open up a chimney and recess a stove (similar to your idea). They were concerned about losing floor space. ( and liked the look of the stove in the magazine .. spooky heh).

After careful deliberation and investigation I found that the existing gatherer was too low to allow for a decent top opening flue pipe without major re-working of the chimney.
I also pointed out that inserting a stove into a recess would reduce the effectivness of heating the room ( air circulation / convection would be hampered).
Finally as the stove would have to be centred to the existing chimney flue/lining would have meant that the stove and hearth/plinth was only going to be recessed by about 9-12".
The customer final decision was to go with flexible flue, use vermiculite to insulate between flue and existing chimney, back entrance, block up opeing, and have the stove sit in front of chimney.
They are very happy with it and saved a small fortune on modifiying the chimney. Food For Thought.:)

Might I just point out that if a stove is to be sited on a pre existing hearth, that once served an open fire, it is a requirement that the hearth extends in from of the stove by a MINIMUM of 225mm, and more than likely 300mm. We would take it a little further and state that the SWING OF THE DOOR be protected with non combustible material. Just something that is often overlooked until a house buns to the ground and the installer is in court trying to defend against something that can't be defended against....and on a more sobering thought...if you have fitted the stove yourself and you loose the house...a fire inspection officer and loss adjuster might find you have not complied with regualtions and you might not be insured....interesting thought when you are buying a box from shop and being told to fit it yourself.

sooty_soupy

ntpm wrote: »

Would agree with DoneDL.
Generally I would get the chimney thouroughly cleaned and inspected by a reputable company first. If you are going to reuse the existing chimney you will need to use a reducer 9"-5" ( depending on your cimney/stove spigot size).

But surely reducing the diameter of the entire flue to suit the manufactures stipulation in the brochures will give you a better efficiency from the appliance. Also a flue adapter has to be sleeved UP INSIDE THE CLAY LINER...effectively this is an upside down sockected joint...check the document J about socketed joint being installed with the socket pointing up to contain moistures

sooty_soupy

[After careful deliberation and investigation I found that the existing gatherer was too low to allow for a decent top opening flue pipe without major re-working of the chimney.
I also pointed out that inserting a stove into a recess would reduce the effectivness of heating the room ( air circulation / convection would be hampered).
Finally as the stove would have to be centred to the existing chimney flue/lining would have meant that the stove and hearth/plinth was only going to be recessed by about 9-12".
The customer final decision was to go with flexible flue, use vermiculite to insulate between flue and existing chimney, back entrance, block up opeing, and have the stove sit in front of chimney.
They are very happy with it and saved a small fortune on modifiying the chimney. Food For Thought.:)]


A good inset stove with a flexible steel lining system to ensure soot falls into the appliance rather than around and behind it would work. Some of the better ones are basically a stove in a hollow box, and efectively are a convection unit, encouraging cold air to be drawn under the firebox, and heated, then propelled out from the unit through vents above the door. A very good alternative and you also are not needing to extend the hearth usually as the stove is recessed.

sooty_soupy

johneym wrote: »

thanks very much lads for the replies,

the stove is an solid fuel olymberyl aidan 21 KW with boiler. I will be using a 6 inch flexi flue and cowl and will be back filling with vermiculite.
One of the installers wanted to put a back exit without a soot box. Soot boxes are a thing of the past he says. Both the top and back baffle can be romoved for cleaning purposes.
He didnt think it necessary but if I went this route I would use a 90 degree T or 45 degree T with a 45 bend would be used. This might be a holding where the soot would go.
As regards the builders suggestion, he is a professional builder. Any older people will all tell you the same thing about a bend for the draw. My grand uncle for one who is 87 years old and has seen many stoves/ranges installed in his day. All I am saying is that there must have been something in it. But I am not really concerned about this at all and think the draw will be good regardless.
I need to make a decision one way or the other soon. But I do not want problems down the line and want the best possible installation.
Unfortunately the room is not big enough to allow the stove too far out in the room. Even a little back is a help.
I would like to hear from someone who has a top exit straight up flue and if you had any issues.

Thanks a lot,

John

21KW...don't forget to add 550mm squared of ventilation for every KW over 5...My calculation is 16 x 550 = 8800mm Square of ventilation is required in the room....Now there is a reason for Carbon Monoxide gentlemen...a lack of ventialtion, the stove uses the Oxygen quicker than the modern home can replenish and we all fall down... Can you imagine the draught through a permanently open vent in the wall...and yes that is in document J too if you care to check....Check out Clearview or I think the bigger Charnwood stoves that can have this required air ducted directly into the stove rather than ventilating the room...much like the time honoured and well respected Baxi open fire with the vent to the ash pit.

sooty_soupy

heinbloed wrote: »

This is true. On the continent such installations as seen here in most Irish households are illegal. My sister in law had such an installation done, the mixture of soot and condensing water and rain running down the chimney into the stove, flowing out at the flue pipe joints.
Further on there is no way left of cleaning the chimney and consequently any atempt to do so means throwing soot into the stove and the flue pipe. Soot is a carcinogenic substance b.t.w..



This is rubbish.Talk to a real builder, someone who has experienced the laws of physics and knows how to make the most of them. Selling myth and mystery is not a builder's job.



Your doubts are justified. In case a larger deposit of ash and soot falls from the chimney into the flue pipe it might block it and then you'll die of CO poisoning. Or the house burns down...

That is the reason why these installations are absolute illegal. But subsidised by the SEI, well, killing people makes them to zero energy consumers. Ask your fire safety officer.

A chimney designed to operate as a flue gas duct for an open fire is by no way suitable to be operated with a stove. It must be altered, usually by reducing it's diameter.

Flue pipes with spigot and socket joints should be installed with sockets pointing up to contain moistures. A lot of cheap import stoves don't allow the vitreous enamel pipe to connect correctly to the stove, and this causes problems with the ill educated installer who continues to install such joints the wrong way around...clay liners have the same joint and should be installed in the same manner. If they are upside down, or not seated properly. THEN FORGET ABOUT USING A FLUE ADAPTER....

rpmcs

i laughing more and more as people come on here saying builders say this and that,and that is a fearful laugh as its so dangerous!!
i fit fireplaces and stoves, ask any builder what heights your flue gather should be at and everyone will have different answer,most not all, will be incorrect!!
as for stoves, builders really dont have a clue, theres a reason why we in the industry do courses and stick to what we know, we dont build houses, thats for the builders!!
why oh why do people still come on here and say my builder who has 20yrs experience said ......!!! jesus, people if you want to extend your house go to a builder,but if you want to fit stoves /fireplace go see someone that has done some courses on chimneys/installation of stoves!!
sooty soup talks alot of sense, unfortunately in south of ire altough the reg is there,there is not one clear association that are legally required to carry out or asses work!! and this leaves some shops in order to sell stoves will say what seems like they might get the sale!!!
my best line to people is you can do it that way if you want but if you ever want to call your insurance company they will have a look and tell you your insurance is invalid!! surprising how that gets people to see the light!!
as to agree with sooty soup in answer to op, as long as the vertical pipe does not exceed 6"150mm in length, should be ok, but given option top is always best with liner going straight up full length of flue!!

sooty_soupy

rpmcs wrote: »

i laughing more and more as people come on here saying builders say this and that,and that is a fearful laugh as its so dangerous!!
i fit fireplaces and stoves, ask any builder what heights your flue gather should be at and everyone will have different answer,most not all, will be incorrect!!
as for stoves, builders really dont have a clue, theres a reason why we in the industry do courses and stick to what we know, we dont build houses, thats for the builders!!
why oh why do people still come on here and say my builder who has 20yrs experience said ......!!! jesus, people if you want to extend your house go to a builder,but if you want to fit stoves /fireplace go see someone that has done some courses on chimneys/installation of stoves!!
sooty soup talks alot of sense, unfortunately in south of ire altough the reg is there,there is not one clear association that are legally required to carry out or asses work!! and this leaves some shops in order to sell stoves will say what seems like they might get the sale!!!
my best line to people is you can do it that way if you want but if you ever want to call your insurance company they will have a look and tell you your insurance is invalid!! surprising how that gets people to see the light!!
as to agree with sooty soup in answer to op, as long as the vertical pipe does not exceed 6"150mm in length, should be ok, but given option top is always best with liner going straight up full length of flue!!

Just to clarify guys, RPMCS means the HORIZONTAL PIPE should not exceed 6" or 150mm from the rear of the stove.

It is also interesting to note that Clearview Stoves, which we supply all over Ireland now, refer to a lot of retailers as BOX MOVERS. It is companies like this that can destroy the reputation of a manufacturer simply because the box movers put stoves into the hands of these builders, handymen, plumbers, and blatant cowboys to "install", or sold as a DIY project...then when things go wrong...it is the technical support for the manufacturer that gets bombarded. You can be damn sure it is either crap fuel, or bad installation, and rarely the stove, so you can imagine why these companies get annoyed.

I'm not saying that the installation can't be done the tradesmen and DIY enthusiast, but all too often they are too proud to take advice, or more importantly the shirt and ties with hands like accountants in showrooms haven't got a bloody clue what they are selling and wouldn't know the first thing about chimneys and flues...

It shouldn't be allowed but it happens all the time...

So what do you do? who do you get advice from? Well you can read posts from people on forums if you want. Filter through the rubbish, and hope that some people who UNDERSTAND what they are working with, and are MAKING THE EFFORT to advise are willing to help guide you. We are not doing so for the good of OUR health. The other thing you can do is speak to the manufacturer of the stove you want to buy....but a word to the wise...if you speak to them and feel they are talking crap...then they are employing the wrong people and it is a reflection on the product. Trust me I have spoken to a lot of them over the years, and still find myself suggesting the usual four brands...Morso or Jotul for good Scandanavian stuff and Charnwood or our Clearview's for UK manufacturers. All excellent, and so is the after sales.

Off my soap box I get again...

rpmcs

wouldnt get to far sooty with my 150 vertical!! thanks for the correction!! :eek:

sooty_soupy

No problem mate

skigolf

ntpm wrote: »

After careful deliberation and investigation I found that the existing gatherer was too low to allow for a decent top opening flue pipe without major re-working of the chimney.
I also pointed out that inserting a stove into a recess would reduce the effectivness of heating the room ( air circulation / convection would be hampered).
Finally as the stove would have to be centred to the existing chimney flue/lining would have meant that the stove and hearth/plinth was only going to be recessed by about 9-12".
The customer final decision was to go with flexible flue, use vermiculite to insulate between flue and existing chimney, back entrance, block up opeing, and have the stove sit in front of chimney.
They are very happy with it and saved a small fortune on modifiying the chimney. Food For Thought.:)

Can I ask a question please, sorry but just finding this hard to picture...

If you have blocked up the opening, and I assume you are using the regulations recommended tee (maximum 150mm horizontal, tee to collect soot) for rear exit stoves, how does the flue pipe reach the 'chimney' if the opening is blocked up - would you have a picture of the solution please as it is something I might consider.

ntpm

skigolf wrote: »

Can I ask a question please, sorry but just finding this hard to picture...

If you have blocked up the opening, and I assume you are using the regulations recommended tee (maximum 150mm horizontal, tee to collect soot) for rear exit stoves, how does the flue pipe reach the 'chimney' if the opening is blocked up - would you have a picture of the solution please as it is something I might consider.

Base of clay pipe has adapter fitted, similar to below dreawing:

The clay liner adapter is designed to easily make a tar tight connection to existing clay liners. A spigot inserts up into the liner and the shoulder of the adapter then pushes up to meet the liner. Any tar that gets outside of the spigot is led back into the flue system through the shoulder. The clay liner adapter is fixed up by screwing through the upper lip of the shoulder where necessary (often the flue pipe will hold this component up).

There is then small extension from this and swept bend ie. 45 + 45 deg elbows and another small extension section, that exit the fireplace opening at the correct height for the rear stove spigot.
NO TEE PIECE REQUIRED. As the chimney can be swept directly back in to stove.
The existing fire place is blocked uand back filled with bricks or filling.

skigolf

NTPM,
Thank you for clarifying that. Does the flue go through some hole in the blocked up fireplace?

I have a stovax stove and just looking at the installation manual - it only gives one option for rear exit flue connection and that is the tee - I think I should contact the manufacturer and see if your suggestion is suitable for this specific stove.

ntpm

skigolf wrote: »

NTPM,
Thank you for clarifying that. Does the flue go through some hole in the blocked up fireplace?

I have a stovax stove and just looking at the installation manual - it only gives one option for rear exit flue connection and that is the tee - I think I should contact the manufacturer and see if your suggestion is suitable for this specific stove.

Definetly follow Manufacturers Instruction.
The way i was explaining you will have a continous flue running from the back of the stove rear exit to the chimney flue, This would allow cleaning straight into the stove.
Some stoves normally have baffles inside that you can remove to clean the chimney.
The pipe/flue adaptor and elbows are fiited exits the opening at the correct height, The opening is then blocked up and plastered. The stove is then installed and connected to the flue using appropriate spigot.

PeteHeat

ntpm wrote: »

Base of clay pipe has adapter fitted, similar to below dreawing:

The clay liner adapter is designed to easily make a tar tight connection to existing clay liners. A spigot inserts up into the liner and the shoulder of the adapter then pushes up to meet the liner. Any tar that gets outside of the spigot is led back into the flue system through the shoulder. The clay liner adapter is fixed up by screwing through the upper lip of the shoulder where necessary (often the flue pipe will hold this component up).

There is then small extension from this and swept bend ie. 45 + 45 deg elbows and another small extension section, that exit the fireplace opening at the correct height for the rear stove spigot.
NO TEE PIECE REQUIRED. As the chimney can be swept directly back in to stove.
The existing fire place is blocked uand back filled with bricks or filling.

Hi NPTM,

I will ask you the same question I have asked other manufacturers of similar adapters;

Do you or the manufacturers have any certification documents such as British Agrement or Irish Agrement certs for this product?

Do you or the manufacturers have product liability insurance for this product?

I lose a lot of business because I refuse to stock / sell these adapters even if the customer wants to install D.I.Y.

.

sooty_soupy

Guys this is going to rumble on. The simple fact is you buy a stove to be efficient, more so than the open fire. the stove company will tell you what diameter the flue needs to be in their instructions. It is considered good practice referring to building regulations in Ireland...document J and in Northern Ireland it's Technical booklet L, that a flue be reduced to suit the appliance intended. This way you can be assured of getting the best efficiency from the stove, but also if the steel liner is used throughout, and backfilled with vermiculite insulation the flue temperatures are kept stable throughout, even when the stove is burning slowly, helping to reduce build up of combustive tars and soot in a flue.

The MAIN concern I have as a registered Master chimney technician in Northern Ireland is I have seen some disgraceful attempts by builders to build clay flues. Some of them need hung drawn and quartered for the efforts they make at fitting flues in chimneys, with gaps, no insulation, and often joints upside down. When one of the cowboy stove companies sell you this DIY adapter, ARE ANY OF THEM ASKING YOU TO CHECK WITH A CCTV CAMERA IF THE FLUE IS IN GOOD ORDER....bloody sure they aren't...you are packed out of the door with a pice of chinese pig iron made to look like a stove and painted black and a bastardised "chimney system" and they couldn't give a knack.

Get real people.....Solid fuel, fire, your home and family, and insurance. DO IT ONCE PROPERLY OR DON'T DO IT....as the meerkat says....SIMPLE !!!

I'm stepping off the soap box again for a wee while. Be safe

ronan0

sooty_soupy wrote: »

Guys this is going to rumble on. The simple fact is you buy a stove to be efficient, more so than the open fire. the stove company will tell you what diameter the flue needs to be in their instructions. It is considered good practice referring to building regulations in Ireland...document J and in Northern Ireland it's Technical booklet L, that a flue be reduced to suit the appliance intended. This way you can be assured of getting the best efficiency from the stove, but also if the steel liner is used throughout, and backfilled with vermiculite insulation the flue temperatures are kept stable throughout, even when the stove is burning slowly, helping to reduce build up of combustive tars and soot in a flue.

The MAIN concern I have as a registered Master chimney technician in Northern Ireland is I have seen some disgraceful attempts by builders to build clay flues. Some of them need hung drawn and quartered for the efforts they make at fitting flues in chimneys, with gaps, no insulation, and often joints upside down. When one of the cowboy stove companies sell you this DIY adapter, ARE ANY OF THEM ASKING YOU TO CHECK WITH A CCTV CAMERA IF THE FLUE IS IN GOOD ORDER....bloody sure they aren't...you are packed out of the door with a pice of chinese pig iron made to look like a stove and painted black and a bastardised "chimney system" and they couldn't give a knack.

Get real people.....Solid fuel, fire, your home and family, and insurance. DO IT ONCE PROPERLY OR DON'T DO IT....as the meerkat says....SIMPLE !!!

I'm stepping off the soap box again for a wee while. Be safe

Where does it say that in the regulations...

2.3 Size - Flue sizes should be at least:
(a) for flue pipes, equal to that of the flue outlet
on the appliance, or
(b) for chimneys, at least the size shown in Table
2, but never less than the size of the flue
outlet on the appliance or that recommended
by the appliance manufacturer.

And the reason this "rumbles on" is because the prices charged by stove installers in the republic of Ireland is absolutely bloody extortionate. Criminal even.

Then, these charges are justified by making obtuse reference to regulations their customers are unfamilar with and playing on their fears re fire and insurance and so on.

What we need on boards.ie is a group of good DIYers and builders to share their knowledge, and point each other to guidance contained in regulations, so that they can do the job confidently (as regular houseowners do to a far greater degree in the US, Canada and Europe).

F**k the bloody cartels operating here in the rip off republic. Recently I saw a couple of quotes for some basic stove remedial work (fiiting a liner) to an elderly neighbour of mine that made my blood boil. I know precisely what is involved in the work and cost of materials having done it myself. But she was being quoted around 650 for labour and 350-450 for the liner (bungalow)?!

B****rds.

sooty_soupy

Try section 1.38 of this document http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/uploads/br/BR_PDF_ADJ_2010.pdf

A simple search for the documents you mentioned on google, and the people you claim are unfamiliar, can arm themselves with the recommended guidelines. You will need the ability to read and understand them before opening your mouth and falsely questioning a professionals integrity. This may be more prudent in future. After all, I have nothing to gain by giving this info, as the Republic has it's own breed of merry men fitting these things….and God knows we get the people asking advice…before and after up here in the North.

Good DIYers are the very reason these forums have such a following. People are trying to learn from others mistakes. Playing on peoples fears is also a bit strong. I have just come from a site visit on behalf of a customer that bought a stove and flue from a plumbing counter, and he fitted it himself…but guess what…he knew what he was doing, he's fitted a load of stoves before. This became a problem when his bedroom carpet caught fire from the vitreous enamel flue passing through his joists, through the bedroom, and into the attic, before twin wall flue going through the tiles….1 metre of it…just to be "safe"….oh and his insurance company's loss adjuster laughed and are washing their hands of him.

What people charge for their work is neither here nor there. People are not obliged to pay it. You perhaps feel you know what is involved in fitting these units, and perhaps you know the price of materials, but with all things in life, you get what you pay for. After all, there are different grades of flue, different manufacturers, different constructions…with some being more robust than others….fair enough. If I choose to drive a Ferrari and you, a Ford, so be it. You will get to your destination as will I.

There…and not one expletive. ;-)

ronan0

Well look,

You referred to 2 standards. The Irish standard emphasises minimum flue size, and so does the NI one although it goes a little further by saying one must:

"ensure an adequate discharge velocity of the flue gas that will prevent flow reversal problems but will not impose excessive flow resistance."

So, I take that to mean, yes, a larger flue area may well be fine. But TEST it to check for the above conditions.

Then subsequently you refer us to a much more comprehensive UK standard. Again, there is a lot about minimum flue side. But there is one line there that you referred us to.

It says: 1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.

Now, the language of these standards is very specific. They say MAY need to be relined... And "oversized flues CAN be unsafe.

But not necessarily.

a. Drop your Android down on a rope to check condition of chimney and joins.

b. Do a smoke test.

... There are many factors to count in the above (thus the language used). - How seasoned is your wood, are you burning pine, how high is your chimney, how well does it draw... Do you allow it to smoulder overnight, are you continually burning at lowest output...

An example of what I'm driving at - Look towards motorbike owners. Now, their machines are potential killers. But there are two different types of owners. - There is the guy who buys a ten to fifteen year old machine and looks after his bike all himself and makes sure it is safe for him to ride; and then there is the guy who buys it brand new and drops it into the dealer at the required service intervals (or sometimes not, unfortunately).

Which is the safer owner?

The other analogy in the motorbike example is cost barrier to ownership. Now you look to the US or Canada where stoves have been in wide use for much longer, you will find that a majority of owners are the savvy DIYers. - They are very familiar with the "art of stove operation and maintenance". Also of acquiring and appraising fuel etc.

... So there are two reasons why I am driven to expletives - (1) Is that any real discussion on stove DIY on boards.ie gets quickly shut down by vested interests coming on here and bamboozling people with talk of regulations and horror stories (2) the stove industry seems to be taking extraordinary levels of profit for the kind of work they do, and goods they distribute, through (tacit) cartelism. One example of this is the chimney re-lining - a job where the materials can be acquired fairly cheaply, and can be completed in half a day (at most) by an experienced fitter and his apprentice or intern. - They clear extraordinary levels of profit for this work which they insist to all is essential etc.

As to your latest example of stove catastrophe, what was the guy doing passing a non-insulated flue through a ceiling or joists? That is very basic knowledge. Knowledge that might very easily be shared on boards like this if discussion and compilation of respources was encouraged.

Finally - you say, "People are not obliged to pay it.". I disagree. They ARE obliged. - in the same way as when you go to your pharmacist or solicitor or anyone of the other professional cartels operating in this country. They have no choice.

So let's try and open up the area to competent DIYers so that people can have more choice.

PeteHeat

I take exception to the content and language used in your posts.

There is No Cartel operating in the stove industry North or South of Ireland that I am aware of, if there is one perhaps I should be offended as I haven't been asked to join?

The professionals in the industry are working to four guidelines, Building Regulations, Hetas, Manufacturers Instructions (where available) and Good Working Practice.

As to your reference re: installers using an apprentice or intern, is that meant to offend further?

Employing an apprentice is a very costly road to take for anyone who is hoping to make money, as to interns is that meant to suggest employers don't pay their workers?

Your posts suggest that you haven't a clue about running a business, there is the small matter of overheads, expensive equipment which must be maintained, HSA Regulations which must be complied with, insurances etc etc.

I have never apolgised for making a profit, it happens to be what keeps me in business, the business that survives by offering goods and services at competitive rates.

Please open your own outlet and commence supplying and installing stoves and learn from the experience, the first thing you will learn is there is no cartel, the second there is no easy money, and the third; no lets see how you get on with the first two.

We ply our trade in an open market often being expected to compete against part time DIY'ers, incompetent installers who join the business for the heating season and of course the type who go into the business but never intend to provide an after sales back up service.

Well when you can't beat em join em, so I intend to open an online shop where I don't have to provide advice (often advising against a stove) and charging for the after sales service.

Of course I will still have the top level service for those who wish to avail of and pay for it.

You don't have to avail of any of the goods or services I offer, so strike one off your imaginary Cartel.
.

ronan0 wrote: »

Well look,

You referred to 2 standards. The Irish standard emphasises minimum flue size, and so does the NI one although it goes a little further by saying one must:

"ensure an adequate discharge velocity of the flue gas that will prevent flow reversal problems but will not impose excessive flow resistance."

So, I take that to mean, yes, a larger flue area may well be fine. But TEST it to check for the above conditions.

Then subsequently you refer us to a much more comprehensive UK standard. Again, there is a lot about minimum flue side. But there is one line there that you referred us to.

It says: 1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.

Now, the language of these standards is very specific. They say MAY need to be relined... And "oversized flues CAN be unsafe.

But not necessarily.

a. Drop your Android down on a rope to check condition of chimney and joins.

b. Do a smoke test.

... There are many factors to count in the above (thus the language used). - How seasoned is your wood, are you burning pine, how high is your chimney, how well does it draw... Do you allow it to smoulder overnight, are you continually burning at lowest output...

An example of what I'm driving at - Look towards motorbike owners. Now, their machines are potential killers. But there are two different types of owners. - There is the guy who buys a ten to fifteen year old machine and looks after his bike all himself and makes sure it is safe for him to ride; and then there is the guy who buys it brand new and drops it into the dealer at the required service intervals (or sometimes not, unfortunately).

Which is the safer owner?

The other analogy in the motorbike example is cost barrier to ownership. Now you look to the US or Canada where stoves have been in wide use for much longer, you will find that a majority of owners are the savvy DIYers. - They are very familiar with the "art of stove operation and maintenance". Also of acquiring and appraising fuel etc.

... So there are two reasons why I am driven to expletives - (1) Is that any real discussion on stove DIY on boards.ie gets quickly shut down by vested interests coming on here and bamboozling people with talk of regulations and horror stories (2) the stove industry seems to be taking extraordinary levels of profit for the kind of work they do, and goods they distribute, through (tacit) cartelism. One example of this is the chimney re-lining - a job where the materials can be acquired fairly cheaply, and can be completed in half a day (at most) by an experienced fitter and his apprentice or intern. - They clear extraordinary levels of profit for this work which they insist to all is essential etc.

As to your latest example of stove catastrophe, what was the guy doing passing a non-insulated flue through a ceiling or joists? That is very basic knowledge. Knowledge that might very easily be shared on boards like this if discussion and compilation of respources was encouraged.

Finally - you say, "People are not obliged to pay it.". I disagree. They ARE obliged. - in the same way as when you go to your pharmacist or solicitor or anyone of the other professional cartels operating in this country. They have no choice.

So let's try and open up the area to competent DIYers so that people can have more choice.

sooty_soupy

Congratulations Pete. Very well answered. The simple fact is that nobody is obliged to pay our prices. Clearview Stoves recommend the way they want their stoves fitted to get the most efficient and safe use out of their stoves, and we offer the service of doing so. If some muppet wants to fit a stove against manufacturers instructions, building regs HETAS guidelines etc etc, then we will sell them the stove and they are on their own.

You mention the comprehensive UK document. I was asked to visit the Irish Standards office a good number of years ago by someone who was attempting to set up an Association in the South. I was led to believe the standard was not in place and that I was being asked to help in the guidance of such a document. It was rather embarrassing to find that the Irish had adopted the same Document J as was applicable in the UK, stating that the document was ideal for what they required. I guess there is a dumbed down version if you wish to comply with the VERY MINIMUM.

"An oversize flue can be unsafe" Of course it can. If you shove a piece of 5 or6" black pipe inside an 8" clay liner, with a plug of fire cement, (or if you are one particular DIY fool, that thought paying us was too expensive, the proceeded to destroy the top of the brand new stove he had bought from us with dripping pink expandable foam product while filling the house with toxic gases) you create a trough. When this fills with soot, you are just waiting for the show to start. A real chimney fire after a slumbering stove has built up enough fuel in the chimney is possibly one of the frightening experiences you will witness.

DIYers need understand the complexities and dynamics of how a flue actually works. You need to know why it is important to maintain flue gas temperatures, reduce the flue dimensions to ensure adequate velocity of the combustion gas discharge, create a smooth surface area, with the minimum of bends to reduce the risk of condensates and combustibles building up in the flue, and then things like termination points of flues, ensuring adequate combustion air for every KW of heat produced, distances from combustibles, correct hearth dimensions and thicknesses to comply with current fire regulations, and the list goes on and on. But until you know all of this, then perhaps rather than questioning the people trying to give sound guidance on good practice, and safe installation, while making a living, you should be thankful we are giving our time to answer some of the genuine queries. I remember back in my younger days driving my first car to the garage to get brake pads fitted. Watching what he was doing I remarked to Maurice "that looked easy enough" on completion while paying the bill. The old mechanic looked at me and smiled. He replied "you can always watch what I'm doing, but can't tell what I'm thinking son…be safe out there" I have still only ever fitted brake pads to my push bike.

The latest catastrophe, as you put it, was fitted by the homeowner using components bought from a plumb centre, and was fitted the way he was told to do so by a young guy behind the counter, apparently working there for about two weeks and still a teenager, who handed over all the materials. What did he know about chimneys and flues?……In words you would understand Ronan0, F**K all. But the company have washed their hands of all responsibility and this homeowner….oh and DIYer…. is left with a destroyed house, and no insurance. I guess the teenager should have gone on to a forum and learnt from the other DIYers before advising the general public…sure then everyone would sleep safe in bed. After all these things are only heating appliances that you light a fire in, which in turn exhausts the harmful gases of combustion out of a flue passing through a home. Any dick-head should be able to fit them….what can go wrong with Boards.ie to help you out. I'm thinking of making a small nuclear power plant to generate electricity in the spare bathroom, if anyone can point me in the right direction for advice.

You claim people HAVE TO PAY US…you are oh so wrong, and might I be so bold as to say you are making a fool of yourself for stating otherwise. There are plenty of idiots in hardware shops, plumbing counters, and car boot sales with a wee mate that can "stick a stove in for you" We price to do jobs the way we can confidently leave the appliance as a safe and well installed unit which is fit for purpose every day. Some will pay it, some won't. Others want to take product and fit it themselves. Others will buy online and take the gamble they don't need warranty or after sales. This is the world we live in. Do what you wish, but don't come on to an open forum mouthing about professional companies doing a professional job especially when you are using the gob****es in the industry as a yard stick to measure us against.

fozz10

this is a genuine q. i had my stove fitted and the manual stated nothing only ensure the chimney is clean and in good condition OTHERWISE may need to be lined. had it cleaned and checked it was fine. stove fitted with cast iron flue attached to the chimney flue as in the instructions and diagram. also ive worked on heaps of new builds where the same was done. do the experienced fitters think there an issue with this .

PeteHeat

fozz10 wrote: »

this is a genuine q. i had my stove fitted and the manual stated nothing only ensure the chimney is clean and in good condition OTHERWISE may need to be lined. had it cleaned and checked it was fine. stove fitted with cast iron flue attached to the chimney flue as in the instructions and diagram. also ive worked on heaps of new builds where the same was done. do the experienced fitters think there an issue with this .

Yes, most manuals refer to local regulations simply because there is no one size fits all specification for the installation of a stove.

I had a visit from a supplier offering adapters for the new flues you refer to, knowing how the product as one I refuse to sell (please bear in mind I like to make a profit) I asked the following questions;

Where in the regulations or guidelines are they covered?

Are they covered by product liability insurance?

Do the manufacturers recommend them?

They are not covered in the regulations or guidelines.

They are not covered by any product liability insurance.

Only one manufacturer offered them as a possible method of installation with the appropriate disclaimers.

They are cheap to buy, easy to use and have the potential to be extremely dangerous.

At the time they were selling some 300 units per week.

I then asked who is liable for the inevitable damage or possible loss of life they can cause?

The simple answer is the DIY or incompetent installer, the product (adapter) is manufactured and sold without any recommendations of how to use them or where.

Chimney fires can kill, Carbon Monoxide can kill Yes even using solid fuel.

I don't need anyone pointing the finger at me saying they suffered a loss because I wanted a €20.00 profit, therefore I don't stock them, sell them or use them.

.

fozz10

Sorry I think your talkin about a different product. I'm talking proper heavy cast iron not that light steel with enamel that all the hardware Stores sell . Heavy duty cast iron straight from the Factory.

PeteHeat

I would expect cast iron pipe which was usually used for soil stacks etc to be likely to crack when subjected to the possible high temperatures that flue products are designed to withstand.

Of course if the manufacturer can answer yes to the same questions I asked about stainless steel adapters then it means the product is fit for purpose.

Personally I haven't used cast iron flue pipe.

.

fozz10 wrote: »

Sorry I think your talkin about a different product. I'm talking proper heavy cast iron not that light steel with enamel that all the hardware Stores sell . Heavy duty cast iron straight from the Factory.

fozz10

Ok I'm not sure your gettin me at all. it's made from the same cast iron my Stanley stove is made from. it's the most expensive flue on the market the shop rarely stocks them as people just buy the cheaper product. I ordered it from the factory myself. I've had the same set up with my oisin for 9 years as none of the cheaper stuff was around then it doesnt
Crack.. My question was do ye see a problem with connection to the chimney with all this lining talk I keep reading. Yet my manual only states line if flue is not sound. I've never lined it for the last 9 years either yer all I read is you need to lline it.

PeteHeat

I do not sell, service or install that particular brand, if they manufacture and sell a cast iron pipe as a flue pipe then I would expect it they deem it suitable for their products, the same manufacturer is the only one I know of who recommended the adapter I referred to earlier in their installation manuals.

When being tested by independent laboratories the flue from the stove is the same size (diameter) as the stove spigot.

The results obtained by the testing laboratory are what should be used when marketing the output and efficiency of the stove, the larger the spigot more air is needed for the flue to work effectively, therefore if a stove with a 125mm spigot is connected to a 200mm diameter flue more of the heat generated (heat) from the fuel is sent up the flue.

Yes the problem I see with your description is the stove is not working as efficiently as it should be.

fozz10

ok. im not too concerned if a small bit is lost. i have no issue with the performance every rad in the house is usually roasting all evening and often a bath or so is had and still hot water in the morning.if thats my only concern im content. cheers for the reply.

PeteHeat wrote: »

I do not sell, service or install that particular brand, if they manufacture and sell a cast iron pipe as a flue pipe then I would expect it they deem it suitable for their products, the same manufacturer is the only one I know of who recommended the adapter I referred to earlier in their installation manuals.

When being tested by independent laboratories the flue from the stove is the same size (diameter) as the stove spigot.

The results obtained by the testing laboratory are what should be used when marketing the output and efficiency of the stove, the larger the spigot more air is needed for the flue to work effectively, therefore if a stove with a 125mm spigot is connected to a 200mm diameter flue more of the heat generated (heat) from the fuel is sent up the flue.

Yes the problem I see with your description is the stove is not working as efficiently as it should be.

fozz10

and my father has worked there for 30 years and theyve always considered cast iron as the best. thats all they make out there and always have. cast iron matt and casrt iron enamel. there extremely heavy duty