Butter vs. low fat spreads....

Tevez101

Which do you use, if any?

Alot of personal trainers, fitness experts(Transform being one of them) would recommend butter but the majority of dieticians, nutrionalist advocate the use of low fat spreads. Whats your view?

rocky

I go for butter and more often coconut oil if I want to fry something.

moonshinerocks

I use spreads on a day to day basis but I prefer the taste of butter. I know it is not healthy to eat and it's a pain to spread so that is why I go for the spreads.

d'Oracle

Butter is not "not healthy to eat".

Low fat is nonsense in my view.

metamorphosis

Butter every time. Butter is an actual food whereas spreads have a list of ingredients that can sometimes be ridonculous (depending on brands). It's also worth mentioning that spreads are mostly veg. oils and as a result are very high in omega 6 which we consumer far too much off - there's a knock on inflammatory effect in there long term. we all know we need lots of omega 3's but the more omega 6's we consume, the more O3 we need as a result. The spreads with the big O3 plastered on their packaging is stupid as it is mainly nonabsorbant so best to stick to your salmon, sardines, flax, fish oil for your O3s. Not to mention the dose of selenium and vitamin k (k2 on grass fed butter) we get which, unless you eat lots of greens, you may benefit from getting more off (especially since this is a fitness forum and most people train a fair bit).

L'prof

I grew up on Flora and prefer it to everything else, especially since any time I deviate I tear lumps out of my bread!

Mellor

I eat neither really

Dixie Chick

moonshinerocks wrote: »

I use spreads on a day to day basis but I prefer the taste of butter. I know it is not healthy to eat and it's a pain to spread so that is why I go for the spreads.

are you a weightwatchers follower by any chance?

moonshinerocks

Dixie Chick wrote: »

are you a weightwatchers follower by any chance?

No, I'm not a Weightwatchers follower. I have never had a problem with my weight, I can eat what I want and never put on a pound. I grew up on butter but switched recently as the fat content in butter is too high. This is not because I am afraid of getting fat but I don't want to end up with clogged arteries like my mother. She was ordered by her doctor to switch or suffer another heart attack. Now I know butter wasn't her only source of excess fat but cutting it out and switching to Benecol has lowered her cholestoral. I still eat butter in moderation. I can't stand it on toast as it doesn't spread properly and tears lumps out of the toast

SanoVitae

In his book "Fats That Heal, Fats that Kill", Udo Erasmus says "low-fat" spreads are often packed full of shortenings, which are very unhealthy.

Given the choice between these spreads and butter, he says go with butter every time. However, he recommends using healthier alternatives instead such as coconut oil and virgin olive oil.

Paul

SanoVitae

Also, here's an article you might find interesting:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/lowfat-spreads-can-be-more-harmful--than-butter-673982.html

moonshinerocks

SanoVitae wrote: »

In his book "Fats That Heal, Fats that Kill", Udo Erasmus says "low-fat" spreads are often packed full of shortenings, which are very unhealthy.

Given the choice between these spreads and butter, he says go with butter every time. However, he recommends using healthier alternatives instead such as coconut oil and virgin olive oil.

Paul

Is it low fat dairy spreads like LowLow and Flora he is referring to or the imitation butter ones like Move Over Butter and Utterly Butterly, or are they considered the same?

moonshinerocks

I think you just have to be smart and read your ingredient list/nutritional information as with all food products.

Magic Eight Ball

moonshinerocks wrote: »

I grew up on butter but switched recently as the fat content in butter is too high. This is not because I am afraid of getting fat but I don't want to end up with clogged arteries like my mother.

So you replaced saturated fat with hydrated trans fats?

Dixie Chick

moonshinerocks wrote: »

No, I'm not a Weightwatchers follower. I have never had a problem with my weight, I can eat what I want and never put on a pound. I grew up on butter but switched recently as the fat content in butter is too high. This is not because I am afraid of getting fat but I don't want to end up with clogged arteries like my mother. She was ordered by her doctor to switch or suffer another heart attack. Now I know butter wasn't her only source of excess fat but cutting it out and switching to Benecol has lowered her cholestoral. I still eat butter in moderation. I can't stand it on toast as it doesn't spread properly and tears lumps out of the toast

Lucky you re: the weight!! Id love that. However I think you shoudlr ead nto the spreads vs butter thing a bit more cos we, as a society have been brainwashed into blaiming weight and health issues on easy targets when if you read below the surface you will see its not so.

SanoVitae

moonshinerocks wrote: »

Is it low fat dairy spreads like LowLow and Flora he is referring to

http://www.theecologist.org/green_green_living/behind_the_label/269112/behind_the_label_flora_proactiv.html

This is an article called "Behind the label: Flora Pro-Activ"

Parts of the article that really stand out for me are:

"The sterols in your spread are not in their natural state. Because they are not freely soluble in oils and fats, the sterol is first hydrogenated and then compounded, or esterified, with other fatty acids (usually from rapeseed oil) in order to make them mix better in the spread."

"As far back as 1975, research identified the structural similarity between plant sterols and the morning-sickness drug Diethylstilboestrol, another ‘weak’ oestrogen associated with birth defects and reproductive cancers in women."

"Fish that live downstream from paper mills are routinely found to change sex due to exposure to sterol-containing effluents." :eek:

moonshinerocks

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

So you replaced saturated fat with hydrated trans fats?

Nope. Have both the packet of LowLow spread and Kerrygold butter from my fridge in front of me. Total fat content per 100g of butter: 81g. Total fat content for the spread: 38g. The fat is not broken down into types on the butter packet, I'm assuming its all saturated. On the spread it is broken down and there is less than 0.5g of trans fats per 100g. I don't see how that equates to replacing saturated with trans? That would seem like a minor amount to me but I'm no trans fat expert so feel free to correct me on that one.

Tevez101

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

So you replaced saturated fat with hydrated trans fats?

While your point is taken and btw I'm a buter man myself, the levels of saturated fat in butter are much greater than the levels of trans fats in low fat spreads. Typically the levels are (50g of sat fats per 100g butter compared to .5g trans fats per 100g low fat spread)

And what constitutes a 'low fat' spread? Is real full fat butter better for you than 'real' butter with reduced levels of saturated fat? or does this render the butter a low fat spread?

moonshinerocks

I will be doing more research thanks to this thread so thumbs up to Tevez101 for starting it

Dotcomdolly

I keep away from the odd ingredient spreads but don't want the fat content of butter so go for low-fat butter instead -
this one
http://www.connachtgoldfoods.ie/butter/detail/low-fat-butter/
or the M&S version

But since I've given up bread I rarely use either.

d'Oracle

moonshinerocks wrote: »

Nope. Have both the packet of LowLow spread and Kerrygold butter from my fridge in front of me. Total fat content per 100g of butter: 81g. Total fat content for the spread: 38g. The fat is not broken down into types on the butter packet, I'm assuming its all saturated. On the spread it is broken down and there is less than 0.5g of trans fats per 100g. I don't see how that equates to replacing saturated with trans? That would seem like a minor amount to me but I'm no trans fat expert so feel free to correct me on that one.

Your body can metabolise Saturated fat.
Saturated fat is not a bad thing in itself.

Your body cannot properly metabolise Trans fats.
Trans fat is a bad thing in itself.

Or so my reading on the subject has lead me to believe.

brianthebard

Tevez101 wrote: »

While your point is taken and btw I'm a buter man myself, the levels of saturated fat in butter are much greater than the levels of trans fats in low fat spreads. Typically the levels are (50g of sat fats per 100g butter compared to .5g trans fats per 100g low fat spread)

Yeah but saturated fat isn't necessarily bad for you, so its not necessarily a good idea to avoid it.

Tevez101

brianthebard wrote: »

Yeah but saturated fat isn't necessarily bad for you, so its not necessarily a good idea to avoid it.

What nutritional benefits arise from consuming saturated fat? Just out of interest, are there any? Out of the hundreds of food and diet articles I have read I have never heard any benefits of it and 99% of the time, the advice is to avoid it. So are saturated fats just 'empty calories'?, because if they are not, surely they must have some sort of nutritional benefit.

moonshinerocks

Saturated fat and trans fats are both bad for you. Saturated fat will increase your risk of heart disease so it is only okay to eat when taken in moderation, and the amounts contained in butter are certainly not moderate. I know that trans fats are bad for you but there is so little of it contained in most spreads. Also spreads have monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fats which can lower cholestoral and reduce your risk of heart disease(according to the Irish Heart Foundation).

SanoVitae

Tevez101 wrote: »

What nutritional benefits arise from consuming saturated fat? Just out of interest, are there any?

There are many, many benefits of saturated fats:

http://www.health-report.co.uk/saturated_fats_health_benefits.htm

This, for me, is the most important part of the article:

"[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]The cause of heart disease is not animal fats and cholesterol but rather a number of factors inherent in modern diets, including excess consumption of vegetables oils and hydrogenated fats; excess consumption of refined carbohydrates in the form of sugar and white flour; mineral deficiencies, particularly low levels of protective magnesium and iodine; deficiencies of vitamins, particularly of vitamin C, needed for the integrity of the blood vessel walls, and of antioxidants like selenium and vitamin E, which protect us from free radicals; and, finally, the disappearance of antimicrobial fats from the food supply, namely, animal fats and tropical oils.52 These once protected us against the kinds of viruses and bacteria that have been associated with the onset of pathogenic plaque leading to heart disease."[/FONT]

Ultimately, it's much more important to concentrate on limiting your intake of refined carbohydrates than it is worrying about whether butter or a low fat spread is healthier.

Most things are fine in moderation, including both butter and low-fat spreads. Unfortunately, the masses aren't even aware that they should moderate their intake of refined carbs because they have been brainwashed by the low-fat brigade into judging foods solely on their fat and calorie content.

As long as this continues, the number of deaths due to heart disease will rise and rise.

Enough typing - I'm off to chew on a bar of lard!

Paul

Transform

Oh holy mary mother of god - that post above my moonshinerocks s just packed with just about every low fat theory going that has been pushed on us for the past 50-100 years!!

I have covered this many times before and here are a few of the most compelling pieces i use when giving my take on the issue -

++++++++++++

Fats are vital to so many processes in our body and yet there are still people out there who think if we eat the good fats (and saturasted fats) we will get fat. There is also a false belief that eating fat is bad for our heart. In 2003 The British Medical Journal did a fourteen year study (way more than the 2-6 week studies that show nothing really) and found:

“There is no support for dietary fat/cholesterol and risk of stroke in men”

In October 2005 the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a study in which the diets of 2,200 post-menopausal women with low total fat intake and they discovered:

“A higher saturated fat intake (from meat, eggs, dairy foods) is associated with LESS progression of cardiovascular disease (CVD) whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with greater progression”

Finally, more recently the one of the most prestigious journals, the Journal of the America Medical Association (JAMA) published a study in which 50,000 women between 50-79years of age. They concluded that:

“Decreased fat and increased fruit and vegetables and grains did not decrease the risk of CVD”

Therefore, what we they are all saying is that eating fat, even saturated fat (contains MCT), is good for your heart and can even prevent CVD.

In May 2007 (Pharmacotherapy Journal) published a study, which showed a decrease in trigylceride levels by 45% and lowering of LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) by more than 50% through the regular consumption of fish oil supplements. This study lead to the groundbreaking approval by the FDA for omega 3’s (2-4/day) in the prevention of CVD.

+++++

Now is it the butter that is the real issue or the 4 slices of bread you are having twice a day that is the elephant in the room?

brianthebard

Tevez101 wrote: »

What nutritional benefits arise from consuming saturated fat? Just out of interest, are there any? Out of the hundreds of food and diet articles I have read I have never heard any benefits of it and 99% of the time, the advice is to avoid it. So are saturated fats just 'empty calories'?, because if they are not, surely they must have some sort of nutritional benefit.

Out of interest did you ever look for a pro saturated fat article?

fats are definitely not empty calories they are absolutely necessary to the proper functioning of our body. There is far more nutritional benefit to be gained from butter than spreads.

SanoVitae

Transform wrote: »

Now is it the butter that is the real issue or the 4 slices of bread you are having twice a day that is the elephant in the room?

But I've been eating nothing all day except white bread with low-fat spreads and I'm not losing any weight at all!!!

moonshinerocks

Transform wrote: »

Oh holy mary mother of god - that post above my moonshinerocks s just packed with just about every low fat theory going that has been pushed on us for the past 50-100 years!!

I have covered this many times before and here are a few of the most compelling pieces i use when giving my take on the issue -

++++++++++++

Fats are vital to so many processes in our body and yet there are still people out there who think if we eat the good fats (and saturasted fats) we will get fat. There is also a false belief that eating fat is bad for our heart. In 2003 The British Medical Journal did a fourteen year study (way more than the 2-6 week studies that show nothing really) and found:

“There is no support for dietary fat/cholesterol and risk of stroke in men”

In October 2005 the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition published a study in which the diets of 2,200 post-menopausal women with low total fat intake and they discovered:

“A higher saturated fat intake (from meat, eggs, dairy foods) is associated with LESS progression of cardiovascular disease (CVD) whereas carbohydrate intake is associated with greater progression”

Finally, more recently the one of the most prestigious journals, the Journal of the America Medical Association (JAMA) published a study in which 50,000 women between 50-79years of age. They concluded that:

“Decreased fat and increased fruit and vegetables and grains did not decrease the risk of CVD”

Therefore, what we they are all saying is that eating fat, even saturated fat (contains MCT), is good for your heart and can even prevent CVD.

In May 2007 (Pharmacotherapy Journal) published a study, which showed a decrease in trigylceride levels by 45% and lowering of LDL cholesterol (bad cholesterol) by more than 50% through the regular consumption of fish oil supplements. This study lead to the groundbreaking approval by the FDA for omega 3’s (2-4/day) in the prevention of CVD.

+++++

Now is it the butter that is the real issue or the 4 slices of bread you are having twice a day that is the elephant in the room?

Can you provide links to the last 2 articles you mentioned so I can look at them and judge for myself rather than just take your interpretation at face value? The first one is irrelevant as nobody here claimed that saturated fat increases the risk of stroke in men. Also, keep it to butter vs spreads - the nutritional facts regarding bread are for another thread.

moonshinerocks

I mean not the last 2 but the second and third. The last one is also irrelevant to me

Tevez101

brianthebard wrote: »

Out of interest did you ever look for a pro saturated fat article?

fats are definitely not empty calories they are absolutely necessary to the proper functioning of our body. There is far more nutritional benefit to be gained from butter than spreads.

Hey guys, dont get me wrong, I'm not anti fat at all, I know the body needs lots good fats to function properly (fish, seeds, nuts, oils etc.) but the advice I was always given was to limit saturated fats and eat plenty of the fats as mentioned above. I never said all fats are empty calories or make you fat I was simply questioning the nutritional benefits of saturated fats as my knowledge of them(like many others I'm sure) is limited.

d'Oracle

WOAH.

Should this not be in Nutrition & Diet?

brianthebard

Tevez101 wrote: »

Hey guys, dont get me wrong, I'm not anti fat at all, I know the body needs lots good fats to function properly (fish, seeds, nuts, oils etc.) but the advice I was always given was to limit saturated fats and eat plenty of the fats as mentioned above. I never said all fats are empty calories or make you fat I was simply questioning the nutritional benefits of saturated fats as my knowledge of them(like many others I'm sure) is limited.

I'm not saying your anti fat but if all the info you're reading is anti fat then you won't be able to get the full picture no matter how open minded you are. Transform's post is a great example of knowledge about the topic. Plus fish, seeds, nuts and oils are all saturated fats (as well as other types). I always find it funny when diet shows are on tv and the presenter tells the person that they are going to stop eating fatty unhealthy burgers and eat healthy salmon - its probably got more fat in it than the burgers. Not that there's anything wrong with salmon, its just that in and of themselves these foods and saturated fat are not bad for you.

Transform

moonshinerocks wrote: »

Can you provide links to the last 2 articles you mentioned so I can look at them and judge for myself rather than just take your interpretation at face value? The first one is irrelevant as nobody here claimed that saturated fat increases the risk of stroke in men. Also, keep it to butter vs spreads - the nutritional facts regarding bread are for another thread.

man i a not going to provide any further links (got clients to train and help teach them to eat more butter and less bread!!) and to be honest you need to do your own research as its more than compelling that -

A) the low fat theory is wrong

b) the likes of flora or other spreads are NOT the health promoting foods that they are advertised

People use low fat spreads because of point A

Low fat spreads are a frankenstein food

Take the example of lowering cholesterol - some misinformed people will start consuming lots of flora, plant sterol yogurt drinks etc yet there is a mountain of evidence that fish oil supplementation would make a massive difference to their cholesterol numbers.

Overall when my clients stick to eating butter on some oatcakes with salmon, tuna etc or butter on their steamed/roasted veg, instead of tons of bread, adopt a lower carb intake (less bread, rice, cereals, pasta, potatoes and more fruit and veg), eat quality protein sources and more good fats in general they feel better, have more energy, perform better in sessions and will drop weight so long as the total calorie intake for the day puts them into a calorie deficit.

Ice.

William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal 'Nutrition in Clinical Practice', Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat.

daltonm

Transform wrote: »

man i a not going to provide any further links (got clients to train and help teach them to eat more butter and less bread!!) and to be honest you need to do your own research as its more than compelling that -

A) the low fat theory is wrong

b) the likes of flora or other spreads are NOT the health promoting foods that they are advertised

People use low fat spreads because of point A

Low fat spreads are a frankenstein food

Low fat is the biggest scam the food industry has ever pulled off.
This is a great article which explains about fats and bad carbs.

OILING OF AMERICA What we have had in the last 80 years is the oiling of America. We have had a big decline in the use of animal fats. People don't use lard any more. We have had a huge increase in the use of vegetable oils, either shortening, margarine or the liquid vegetable oils. Butter consumption has fallen dramatically, but the increase in heart disease and cancer is continuing to rise. It doesn't take a statistician to realize that butter consumption is not the cause of heart disease and cancer. You may have heard of the French paradox. They have one quarter the heart disease that we have, one of the lowest coronary heart disease rates of all western countries, yet they consume a lot more dairy fat than we do, and more animal fats, but their consumption of vegetable oil and hydrogenated fats is much lower.

http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303194521

Ice.

daltonm wrote: »

Low fat is the biggest scam the food industry has ever pulled off.
This is a great article which explains about fats and bad carbs.

OILING OF AMERICA What we have had in the last 80 years is the oiling of America. We have had a big decline in the use of animal fats. People don't use lard any more. We have had a huge increase in the use of vegetable oils, either shortening, margarine or the liquid vegetable oils. Butter consumption has fallen dramatically, but the increase in heart disease and cancer is continuing to rise. It doesn't take a statistician to realize that butter consumption is not the cause of heart disease and cancer. You may have heard of the French paradox. They have one quarter the heart disease that we have, one of the lowest coronary heart disease rates of all western countries, yet they consume a lot more dairy fat than we do, and more animal fats, but their consumption of vegetable oil and hydrogenated fats is much lower.

http://www.consumerhealth.org/articles/display.cfm?ID=19990303194521

That article was written by Sally Fallon who is president of the Weston A. Price Foundation, a notorious advocacy group for the promotion of meat and dairy. Hardly unbiased.

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

William C. Roberts MD has five decades of experience in the field of cardiology, written over 1300 scientific publications, a dozen cardiology textbooks, and has been editor in chief of the American Journal of Cardiology for a quarter of a century. In his 2008 editorial "The Cause of Atherosclerosis", published in the peer reviewed journal 'Nutrition in Clinical Practice', Roberts states that there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat.

75% people who present in hospitals with their first heart attack have normal cholesterol. Kinda shoots a big gaping hole in the 'sole cause of heart disease' theory doesn't it?

In answer to the OP buttter, every single time. There's not one single well controlled prospective trial where they reduce saturated fat in one group and not to reduce in the other that shows that saturated fat contributes to heart disease. Butter contains lots of nutrients and spreads are only enriched with synthetic vitamins in order to inhibit some of that oxidative damage and inflammation that they provoke.

Vegetable oil (what spreads are usually made with) on the other end of the scale is bad news. It is mostly composed of a fat called linoleic acid. Linoleic acid is so good at surpressing the immune system that they used to give kidney transplant patients lots of vegetable oil to eat in order to ensure the organ wasn't rejected by the immune system. It worked really well until they found that the people given the vegetable oil were developing more cancerous tumours, which put the end to that practice.

Vegetable oil is not food recognisable to any mammal on the planet. Leave some spread in the garden and see if anything eats it. It will be untouched weeks later. If that doesn't tell you something..

d'Oracle

Since when did eating & encouraging the eating of meat and dairy become an act of notoriety?

Ice.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

75% people who present in hospitals with their first heart attack have normal cholesterol. Kinda shoots a big gaping hole in the 'sole cause of heart disease' theory doesn't it?

Not really. There could be any number of explanations. The devil is in the details.

d'Oracle wrote: »

Since when did eating & encouraging the eating of meat and dairy become an act of notoriety?

They are essentially a lobby group for the meat and dairy industry. They promote these products while being anti plant & fruit based diets.

daltonm

Ice. wrote: »

That article was written by Sally Fallon who is president of the Weston A. Price Foundation, a notorious advocacy group for the promotion of meat and dairy. Hardly unbiased.

So? Is there anything there that you disagree with?

brianthebard

Ice. wrote: »

Not really. There could be any number of explanations. The devil is in the details.

epic negation of your own point there. Talking out both sides your mouth you are, but its pretty obvious to anyone reading your posts so that's ok.

ApeXaviour

moonshinerocks wrote: »

The first one is irrelevant as nobody here claimed that saturated fat increases the risk of stroke in men.

Stroke is a symptom of atherosclerosis. It's basically the same thing as a heart attack but in your brain. Very relevant.

Ice. wrote:

there is a single, sole cause to heart disease: cholesterol. What is the cause of high cholesterol? Saturated fat.

This is a heavily over-simplified and unjustified assertion. The link between blood serum cholesterol and dietary cholesterol is tenuous at best. Also there are many types and sub classifications of cholesterol. You need cholesterol, you just need it in the right ratios. High cholesterol is not necessarily a bad thing either. Your risk of dying from all factors increases significantly when your cholesterol is low. Do some learning...

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

Not really. There could be any number of explanations. The devil is in the details.

Well yes really. If you say that high cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease (any respectable cardiologist would laugh out loud at that assertion) then all I need to prove that wrong is show you one person with heart disease that doesn't have high cholesterol. I don't have one person, I have 75% of first time heart attack victims.

But I think there really isn't much point reasoning with you. No amount of evidence will deter you from the holy church of the plant-based-diet. You can't battle religion with facts. Seriously, I know loads of cool vegetarians but what is it with the evangelical ones who aren't happy unless they are shoving it down everyone else's throats.

If you continue to just read things that agree with you then you'll never learn anything.

Mellor

Just to throw a spanner into the mix regarding saturated fat, coconut oil and coconut butter is considered to be one of the healthiest sources of dietary fat.

What type of fat does it fall come under...
...saturated fat.

But I thought that all saturated fat was... Oh no... But they always told me...

Ice.

brianthebard wrote: »

Talking out both sides your mouth you are, but its pretty obvious to anyone reading your posts so that's ok.

Because I'm challenging the high-fat carb-phobic dogma that's prevalent here?

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Well yes really. If you say that high cholesterol is the sole cause of heart disease (any respectable cardiologist would laugh out loud at that assertion)

I haven't said it but rather a leading cardiovascular pathologist has. I'd much rather take his word for it. Thanks all the same.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

But I think there really isn't much point reasoning with you. No amount of evidence will deter you from the holy church of the plant-based-diet.

Struck a nerve?:D

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

Because I'm challenging the high-fat carb-phobic dogma that's prevalent here?




I haven't said it but rather a leading cardiovascular pathologist has. I'd much rather take his word for it. Thanks all the same.



Struck a nerve?:D

Lol, you wish. You really are new here, these debates have been done to death using sound facts and evidence, the only one posting dogma around here is you. I have actual data to back up what I say, you only have appeals to authority which is the sign of a poor argument. Please please read something not written from a vegetarian point of view. Despite what you might have thought before, meat AND vegetables are valuable sources of nutrition.

Ice.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Lol, you wish. You really are new here, these debates have been done to death using sound facts and evidence, the only one posting dogma around here is you.

I disagree.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

I have actual data to back up what I say, you only have appeals to authority which is the sign of a poor argument. Please please read something not written from a vegetarian point of view. Despite what you might have thought before, meat AND vegetables are valuable sources of nutrition.

I have read sources from multiple points of view and all the evidence points to a low-fat high-carb diet of fruits and vegetables with the addition of some nuts and seeds as the optimal diet.

Dixie Chick

Ice. wrote: »

I disagree.




I have read sources from multiple points of view and all the evidence points to a low-fat high-carb diet of fruits and vegetables with the addition of some nuts and seeds as the optimal diet.

Great now shove a big lash of the above into your gob and be quiet:D

Ice.

Dixie Chick wrote: »

Great now shove a big lash of the above into your gob and be quiet:D

El_Dangeroso

Ice. wrote: »

I have read sources from multiple points of view and all the evidence points to a low-fat high-carb diet of fruits and vegetables with the addition of some nuts and seeds as the optimal diet.

..ok, great! What are those sources?