Cliches

madtheory

Good balance in this thread

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

show me someone young who's good who is isn't arrogant and I'll show you someone who's actually decidedly mediocre.
In all areas really.

As good musicians get older they hide their self confidence and try so hard to exude an aura of humility because they realise they need the people around them to continue their success (and because they realise they're being pricks).

Soooo many classic examples of this in Irish music, it's a bit ridiculous at this stage.

I don't understand JT.
Are you saying experienced musicians pretend to be humble ?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I don't understand JT.
Are you saying experienced musicians pretend to be humble ?

Many truly great musicians, as time goes on, fake humility because they realise it gets them far further than honesty.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

Many truly great musicians, as time goes on, fake humility because they realise it gets them far further than honesty.

That's a very sad way to look at the world..... and is completely at odds with my experience.

PMI

I see JT's point you fake parts of it, to get through to people when truly you know your the ABSOLUTE **** !!

Now wheres that mirror

GTE

"I cant hear myself"
*engineer pretends to adjust the monitor mix*
"Awh yeah! Awesome!"

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's a very sad way to look at the world..... and is completely at odds with my experience.

not really a sad way to look at the world whatsoever......I can think of at least 3 people who have had mega international success and have been quite honest about what they think of their abilities. When there are outsiders present, they of course humble it up, but in private with people they trust, they're quite open about it.

Paul, you've either never met somebody who was really genius, or else when you have you've been an 'outsider'. Obviously we are speaking in very general terms here, but I've yet to come across a genius who didn't know it.

The difference is, that as they get older they realise that even though people worship them the one thing they love more is seeing their idols being humble. It's a no brainer really when you figure out what's going on.

Rather than say things like 'jaysus that album is sh1te, can't even believe so-and-so is on the same label as me, etc.' they engage in the rampant backpatting, that keeps you in the life you have become accustomed to.

There's one guy in the techno community called Shed (real name Rene Pawlowitz) and he is the latest example of a guy who just speaks his mind. Needless to say, internet message boards have been alight with criticism of him lately because of 1 interview he did where he shared an honest opinion on some other records, and spoke of how easy it was for him to make some really huge dancefloor focused records lately.

The one thing insecure people can't stand more than anything else, is someone with talent who knows beyond of a shadow of a doubt that they've got talent. And there are a hell of a lot of insecure people out there.

I'll never get into quotes of what some very talented and successful have said off record, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about what I'm saying here.

That's why when young guys come along, they pretty much always get warned about their arrogance. Because they haven't figured out how to disguise it.

Me, I hate fake humility far more than an honest perspective. Far far more. So it really doesn't sadden me to look at the world this way.

woodsdenis

jtsuited wrote: »

not really a sad way to look at the world whatsoever......I can think of at least 3 people who have had mega international success and have been quite honest about what they think of their abilities. When there are outsiders present, they of course humble it up, but in private with people they trust, they're quite open about it.

Paul, you've either never met somebody who was really genius, or else when you have you've been an 'outsider'. Obviously we are speaking in very general terms here, but I've yet to come across a genius who didn't know it.

The difference is, that as they get older they realise that even though people worship them the one thing they love more is seeing their idols being humble. It's a no brainer really when you figure out what's going on.

Rather than say things like 'jaysus that album is sh1te, can't even believe so-and-so is on the same label as me, etc.' they engage in the rampant backpatting, that keeps you in the life you have become accustomed to.

There's one guy in the techno community called Shed (real name Rene Pawlowitz) and he is the latest example of a guy who just speaks his mind. Needless to say, internet message boards have been alight with criticism of him lately because of 1 interview he did where he shared an honest opinion on some other records, and spoke of how easy it was for him to make some really huge dancefloor focused records lately.

The one thing insecure people can't stand more than anything else, is someone with talent who knows beyond of a shadow of a doubt that they've got talent. And there are a hell of a lot of insecure people out there.

I'll never get into quotes of what some very talented and successful have said off record, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about what I'm saying here.

That's why when young guys come along, they pretty much always get warned about their arrogance. Because they haven't figured out how to disguise it.

Me, I hate fake humility far more than an honest perspective. Far far more. So it really doesn't sadden me to look at the world this way.

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

Doge

counterpointaud wrote: »

"There must be something wrong with your kick drum mic, it is speeding up."

I LOL'd!

krd

woodsdenis wrote: »

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

I don't know. People are always misunderstanding my stupidity for arrogance and over confidence.

But - do hate this Irish thing of expecting people to be like, "Oh beggorra, I'm only a poor little leprechaun - beggorra" And - it does lead to much worse - the most obnoxious and arrogant bollokses putting on a fake humility. (Actually this discussion makes want to go out an break the fingers on some Irish trad fiddlers I've known. )

There's absolutely nothing wrong with self confidence - in reality we have a lack of it. Talentless gob****es having too much is a problem but lacking self-confidence has held so many talented people back.

Paul Brewer, Jstuited .... if I'm ever in a studio with either of you - and either of you try on a mind game to undermine my self-confidence - I will take a knife from my pocket - and I will cut both eyes of yours, straight out of your ****ing heads (I have this worked out - if you're blind, you can't pick me out of a line up as the guy -- there may be other witnesses but the may like the ability to see stuff - they may like to hang onto their eyes)


I have never understood this problem people have with people who have self-confidence. What's wrong?

What's wrong?

Is it something like - you hate people who had more balls to do things that you didn't have the balls to do?

Too scared to sing?

Too scared to sing?

Too scared to sing?

buck buck buck buck Kaah - chicken noise

i57dwun4yb1pt8

<cop megaphone>
KRD, PUT DOWN THE BOTTLE OF ABSINTH , NOW !
< end cop megaphone >

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

I don't know. People are always misunderstanding my stupidity for arrogance and over confidence.

No they're not ....

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

I'd agree Denis. Having worked with some of the finest musicians here in Ireland and spent time with quite a few Studio Gods internationally - there is a common celebration of music among them, they appreciate that they have talent.

jtsuited

krd wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with self confidence - in reality we have a lack of it. Talentless gob****es having too much is a problem but lacking self-confidence has held so many talented people back.

Paul Brewer, Jstuited .... if I'm ever in a studio with either of you - and either of you try on a mind game to undermine my self-confidence - I will take a knife from my pocket - and I will cut both eyes of yours, straight out of your ****ing heads (I have this worked out - if you're blind, you can't pick me out of a line up as the guy -- there may be other witnesses but the may like the ability to see stuff - they may like to hang onto their eyes)

wtf????? lol

I'd never do any of that sh1te. My way of working with difficult musicians is just show them I understand what's going on. Surprisingly enough, I've never really had too much of a problem with anyone I work with once they see that I actually do know what I'm doing.

And that goes for being a young arrogant musician laying down the law with curmudgeony engineers, to recording mates' bands trying to keep the love of the music the most important vibe in the room.

The amount of people who are very good at what they do, know it and are honest about it, that get called arrogant wánkers is astounding. And maybe it's Irish begrudgery that forces many into fake humility, because it's certainly more rife in Ireland than anywhere else.

Some people (if not most), cannot spot fake humility because a) it's very easy to say 'sure I just do what I do, can't believe the whole world makes such a fuss about me, I'm so lucky, there is sooooo much undiscovered talent out there etc.' (probably the most cliched thing to ever say after you get your 'break')
and
b) it's much nicer to think of your idols as being down to earth and just like you. It suits everyone better.

The reality of the situation is (as many of you are quick to point out), musical success is a result of such hard work, dedication, focus, deliberate moves, and of course an overabundance of talent etc. that the chances of anyone who actually does mega-spectacularly being just some happy-go-lucky humble type is fairly slim.

I can think of one particular Irish artist who pulled the whole humility-after-success thing, but as time went on lost the energy to keep it up, and ended up pretty much refusing all interviews with anyone anymore because of how badly uppity journalists were taking him when he was honest.

DamagedTrax

take the ego/arrogance away from some genius musicians and you're left with nothing.

and i dont mean that the ego is all that they are, i mean that the ego is part of them as a person and is partially responsible for them becoming the genius that they are.

morrisey
corgan
mascis
weller
prince

would they really have achieved all that they have by being humble? personally i dont think so.

jtsuited

good point damaged. people who have godlike images of themselves often tend to set godlike standards for themselves (hence the reason mental illness runs rampant amongst those types too).

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

take the ego/arrogance away from some genius musicians and you're left with nothing.

and i dont mean that the ego is all that they are, i mean that the ego is part of them as a person and is partially responsible for them becoming the genius that they are.

morrisey
corgan
mascis
weller
prince

would they really have achieved all that they have by being humble? personally i dont think so.

But they don't pretend otherwise and that's JTs point - I have acquaintances who work with 2 of your list and who say they're both good, if driven, and therefore demanding, guys.

It's the idea that because you're talented you pretend to be something you're not that galls i.e. humble - which is a disservice to the many talented people I've had the pleasure of working with.

Being talented is a positive not a negative.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

But they don't pretend otherwise and that's JTs point - I have acquaintances who work with 2 of your list and who say they're both good, if driven, guys.

I can guarantee for every one of those two guys who say that there are literally hundreds of journalists who have got seriously pissed off with their 'arrogance'. Just look at the stuff that has been written about Corgan being an egomaniac control freak in the years since Melon Collie.

When really he's just a guy with an uncompromising vision and also knows that he's got more talent in his left toe than the rest of the people he has worked with have combined.

Is it just coincidence that certain musicians who achieve massive success are known as hugely humble while others (who have achieved the same) are legendarily arrogant, egomaniacal, narcissistic and controlling? Or is it that some guys figure out how to fake humility and cover up the very personality traits that got them the success in the first place.

Is it a coincidence that in areas of massive begrudgery towards successful people (Ireland basically), that more of these musicians are present?

Couple these questions of probability with the fact that every sap you ever meet who has met a famous musician will either say either of the following

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

I can guarantee for every one of those two guys who say that there are literally hundreds of journalists who have got seriously pissed off with their 'arrogance'. Just look at the stuff that has been written about Corgan being an egomaniac control freak in the years since Melon Collie.

When really he's just a guy with an uncompromising vision and also knows that he's got more talent in his left toe than the rest of the people he has worked with have combined.

But has he released anything since Melon Collie that warrants the genius tag. I haven't followed his career very closely as I was never a fan but it seems the conventional wisdom is he's gone off the boil. And of the people that DT listed, these were for the most part people whose halcyon days were when they worked in collaboration with somebody else (Weller with the Jam, Corgan with the Pumpkins, Mascis with Barlow and Dinosaur Jr, Morrissey with the Smiths, Prince being the notable exception). Having an ego is one thing, having an ego go unchecked is another.

jtsuited wrote: »

Is it just coincidence that certain musicians who achieve massive success are known as hugely humble while others (who have achieved the same) are legendarily arrogant, egomaniacal, narcissistic and controlling? Or is it that some guys figure out how to fake humility and cover up the very personality traits that got them the success in the first place.

Or, maybe people react to success in different ways. Some might see it as vindication of all their most obnoxious traits, others might see as just a continuation of a journey. Look at Bowie, Dylan, Plant and Springsteen. All massively talented, all know but all still searching and still curious (well, maybe apart from Bowie, has he retired fully). All would have had issues in their time but seem (from my point of view anyways) to possess some modicum of self control and knowledge of the importance of the other people they play with.

jtsuited wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that in areas of massive begrudgery towards successful people (Ireland basically), that more of these musicians are present?

Not entirely sure what you mean here exactly. Are you saying Ireland we begrudge musicians success? I don't think it's really confined to Ireland, look at Melody Maker's 'Build them up and knock them down' mentality of the Late 80s and 90s. Most of the criticism directed at Corgan would seem to come from England and America and Morrissey has always been a target of the British Press (in fairness he does their job for them).

jtsuited wrote: »

Couple these questions of probability with the fact that every sap you ever meet who has met a famous musician will either say either of the following

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Well they always say 'Don't meet your heroes' and a lot of the time it seems to be true. But I think this goes back to the point I made about how people handle success. Some like it, some hate it. Sometimes you might catch these people on a good day, sometimes on a bad. Same thing applies here I think. Having an ego is okay and healthy, unbridled arrogance isn't.

PaulBrewer

People going on about Billy Corgan as if he's a mate .....

There's a cliche right there.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

I can guarantee for every one of those two guys who say that there are literally hundreds of journalists who have got seriously pissed off with their 'arrogance'. Just look at the stuff that has been written about Corgan being an egomaniac control freak in the years since Melon Collie.

When really he's just a guy with an uncompromising vision and also knows that he's got more talent in his left toe than the rest of the people he has worked with have combined.

Is it just coincidence that certain musicians who achieve massive success are known as hugely humble while others (who have achieved the same) are legendarily arrogant, egomaniacal, narcissistic and controlling? Or is it that some guys figure out how to fake humility and cover up the very personality traits that got them the success in the first place.

Is it a coincidence that in areas of massive begrudgery towards successful people (Ireland basically), that more of these musicians are present?

Couple these questions of probability with the fact that every sap you ever meet who has met a famous musician will either say either of the following

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Your whole argument seems to be based on what other people think, citing 'journalists' and 'saps'.

A balanced successful person doesn't need that approval, from journalists or others. They already 'approve' of themselves.

What confidence and self belief does is gives one the ability to accept other views as valid points, even if contrary to ones own.

I can recommend trying that - it makes for a less angry life.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Your whole argument seems to be based on what other people think, citing 'journalists' and 'saps'.

Mainly because they're the ones who spout most loudly about an artists' character, and are most offended by an artist being confident in their abilities.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

A balanced successful person doesn't need that approval, from journalists or others. They already 'approve' of themselves.

I'm more talking of those who are great AND successful. Not just successful. And being great doesn't seem to have anything to do with being 'balanced'. Quite the opposite.
The suicide and mentall illness incidence in history's great artists (and indeed musicians), proves this point

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What confidence and self belief does is gives one the ability to accept other views as valid points, even if contrary to ones own.

Haha, no it doesn't. Not at all. That's somebody who's diplomatic (or just plain spineless). You're pulling that one out of thin air.

Self confidence and self belief let you stand up and be counted even if you're in the distinct minority, they allow you to overcome adversity repeatedly and not concern yourself with the opinions of others. It allows you to pursue endeavours others would deem impossible. That's why so many great AND successful people come across as arrogant. Because their self-confidence sets standards from themselve. Conversely, they can fall into crushing periods of self doubt because of their high standards.

Oh and as for cliches, this is probably the oldest one in the book. Entirely false, and the only reason people think it's not is that it's repeated ad nauseum in discourse when one is trying unsuccessfully to get a cowardly dig in at the other person.

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What confidence and self belief does is gives one the ability to accept other views as valid points, even if contrary to ones own.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

What confidence and self belief does is gives one the ability to accept other views as valid points, even if contrary to ones own.

I can recommend trying that - it makes for a less angry life.

Oh and I presume this is a recent conversion to this way of thinking Paul, because you certainly don't strike me as someone who lives by this philosophy, judging by your behaviour in debates on this here forum.

krd

jtsuited wrote: »

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

The whole "so down to earth" thing bothers me. Like people expecting talented people to be very ordinary - whatever their personal vision of ordinariness is - expecting them to be like a brick layer or a plumber. When they're not.

Artists tend to have a highly developed kind of intelligence the average bricklayer doesn't - not that they're cleverer; they just think different thoughts. It's a kind of intelligence that would get you run off a building site if you didn't hide it very well.

Patrick Kavanagh, the poet, died in poverty. When he was alive he should have had plenty of opportunities to earn a living. But people thought he was too weird to let him have a job - partly because he couldn't keep his mouth shut - he couldn't keep his difference hidden. If he had played mute and stupid he would had a job. Instead he was shunned - he was hated for his talent. The mediocrities making good livings from teaching and writing about art and literature hated him. They painted him as idiot savant - when he wasn't

People will hate you for what they think is going on in your head. They don't mind the stupid - they hate the day dreamers.

Welcome to they weirdo club. Anyone who makes music has strange things going on in their heads.

And then don't forget. Whoever you are - a complete stranger approaches you and they think because they've bought your music, read your book, seen you in a film, that they have a personal relationship with you - they don't. It's a real intrusion to think they do.

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Lots of people are ignorant *****. Take lots of Irish people for example, your typical talentless Irish person. Give them a little money and they'll blank and sneer at people they think are beneath them. The average Irish person is a horrible arsehole. They hate people with genuine confidence - they prefer bull****ters and other nasty people. They enjoy humiliating people.

Lots of famous people steer clear of "ordinary" people - because a lot of ordinary people are a pain in the arse.

Anyway -the blanking and the other crap, it's called status slapping (I prefer to call it turkey slapping, because that's what it is.) I've no idea why people do it - something to with when we were monkeys. Some people can't resist doing it. It's something you should resist. It's a good way to make an enemy for life.

Everyone has an ego. A form of mental illness is the loss of ego. I've met a few famous people - I would say they're less stuck up than your average builder or farmer or office penguin.

A lot of "ordinary" people are very stuck up.

krd

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Being talented is a positive not a negative.

Lots of talented people are not very nice people.

Sting is a talented musician. He's also an absolute scum bag. He'll write a song about apartheid South Africa - as it was the "right on" thing to do. Raise money to protect the indigenous tribes of the Amazon - because they look funky. It makes him look good. Then he does an ad for the gas guzzler Jaguar.

Then he'll go to Adnan Khasoggi's birthday party - claiming afterwards he didn't know who he was - the biggest and possibly dirtiest arms dealer in the world. Or he'll accept a million and a half to play for Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan. Karimov has massacred hundreds of his own people. Sting is an arsehole.

He can still write a tune.

Seziertisch

Some good posts there, Krd.

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

Lots of talented people are not very nice people.
.

But lots of them are !

Citing examples of people I'd guess most here haven't met is hardly the basis of a reasonable argument, whether or not your point is correct.
My comments are my experience of people I have met/or worked with.

Talent doesn't have to go with torture and in fact, they're the cheap seats in the theatre of talent - despite the public's car crash interest in it.

Saying that talented people hide their self confidence is clearly nonsense.

Hiding their self confidence is completely incompatible with performing to thousands of people every night as all the musical examples above do, or did. That's expressing it!

Self confidence is never a disadvantage or anything to hide.

madtheory

krd wrote: »

Or he'll accept a million and a half to play for Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan.

That's not the full story...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1252566/Sting-plays-concert-daughter-boil-enemies-dictator.html

Glassheart

Caveat wrote: »

"I don't want to record the guitar clean - I need the superfuzz/delay/overdrive/flanger/phaser on first so I can get more into into it"

(i.e. I need to cover up my sloppiness)

Or maybe they just like using effects pedals?

jtsuited

krd wrote: »

Lots of talented people are not very nice people.

Sting is a talented musician. He's also an absolute scum bag. He'll write a song about apartheid South Africa - as it was the "right on" thing to do. Raise money to protect the indigenous tribes of the Amazon - because they look funky. It makes him look good. Then he does an ad for the gas guzzler Jaguar.

Then he'll go to Adnan Khasoggi's birthday party - claiming afterwards he didn't know who he was - the biggest and possibly dirtiest arms dealer in the world. Or he'll accept a million and a half to play for Islam Karimov in Uzbekistan. Karimov has massacred hundreds of his own people. Sting is an arsehole.

He can still write a tune.

Nail on head. Sting is the absolute perfect example of a guy who knows exactly how good he is and has no shame in letting people know it.

He's also a borderline sociopath who really genuinely doesn't give a fcuk what the average joe thinks about him. (anyone who has read his book will know what I mean).