Cliches

PaulBrewer

Let's hear some of the recording cliches that, if you're in the Biz more than a week, you start to see.

A few off the top of my head -

Making CDs look like vinyl ... older than CDs themselves .... nearly.

'We're all rehearsed' ..... Oh no you dihn't

SeanHurley

After performing a car crash of a take: "I can't really hear myself, is the mic on????"

jtsuited

"I much prefer playing without the click. Far more organic sounding"

In 99% of cases it means 'I can't play to a click so I'm deluding myself to protect my fragile ego'.

CoolDudesJunk

- Putting wayyy to much effects on a track to mask that it's crap
- Doing a bad take, doing it again, and again until finally you revert to the first one.
- Making drums sound ****e because your mic can't take the db.
- Everything sounds awful cos you couldn't find the thingy that plug the other thingy into the computer. (still can't find my m-audio)

ebaysellerrob

the engineer recked our song cos we could not play in time or in tune so he used auto tune and beat detective the right way or dont use auto tune we dont wanna sound like cher

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'We're all rehearsed' ..... Oh no you dihn't

That's a well worn cliché alright...

trackmixstudio

All of these in the last couple of months!

I don't like Les Pauls. I used to have an Epiphone one.

Of course my guitar is intonated.

I use 10 gauge strings (tuned to B standard)

It has got new strings. I only put them on a couple of months ago.

Of course my Floyd Rose guitar stays in tune.

I know the kick pattern changes every chorus. That's how the song goes.

I always play what the guitar does (on bass). Why would I play with the drums?.

I can't hear the drum roll speeding up and landing ahead of the beat.

My mate's coming in to play violin. He's really good.

I don't want autotune on my (tuneless) vocals.

Can you give me a copy of that plugin?

Do you have drum sticks in the studio?

I need you for a voice over session this afternoon. Will you drop everything, come to the opposite end of the city, arrive early, and go home through rush hour traffic. The session will last an hour so is €50 ok?.

I need to get my film mixed. I can't pay you anything but the film is great and I will give you a credit in the titles.

We are playing in Fibbers next week. Can I borrow your Mesa rectifier stack?

Will you do our live sound ?. We will buy you a few beers.

ETC ETC

krd

madtheory wrote: »

That's a well worn cliché alright...

Hey, Milli Vanilli never had to rehearse.

They worked on their hair - and if only - I'm just saying - if only other people put as much time and effort into their hair as they do into their indie rock - I'm just saying.

krd

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

trackmixstudio

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

Totally agree. Character is FAR more important than tuning, but when the singer has no character and is trying and failing to sing in tune it is painful.
Some kid in a pop punk band is a far cry from Dylan/Lennon etc.
I would never use autotune when it's not needed or takes away from the performance.

krd

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Totally agree. Character is FAR more important than tuning, but when the singer has no character and is trying and failing to sing in tune it is painful.
Some kid in a pop punk band is a far cry from Dylan/Lennon etc.
I would never use autotune when it's not needed or takes away from the performance.

Dylan and especially Lennon - were always in tune. if you want to learn to sing in tune the best practice is singing close harmony - I used to do it with a friend. I'd like to do it again - but need to find somebody - When you get it right it's really impressive - I'd really like to do an Everly brothers thing with someone. (Me and Paul Brewer - he'll have to lose some weight and dye the hair - I'll have to put on some weight - so we can meet half way in the middle)

Anyway - as the story goes - Bono had his epiphany on the release of their first single - where he realised HE COULD NOT ******** SING. And he then he learned.

Bad Singers are plainly bad - good singers use going slightly off as part of their toolbox. The first time you hear Morrisey he sounds off - same with Dylan. And the same with Sinatra - they're deliberately bending out. Morrisey is a great singer - like Sinatra - he comes in most of the time just slightly off to create a slightly discordant sound with the music.

Sinatra in the 50s. There were lots of crooners around - and most of them sung perfectly in tune. Sinatras thing was always teasing the edge of being in tune - listen to the stuff; fly me to the moon, and let me play among the stars. I'd like to see what the weather's like on Jupiter and Mars. He's just doing great stuff with it - he's like going "I'm going to play around, be very close - but most times I'll be slightly sharp or flat - occasionally, i will lay some Jazz on you" - and considering the original song was in Japanese - he's possibly incorporating Japanese atonal techniques.

counterpointaud

"I don't believe in electronic tuners, I like to tune by ear" - Young electric guitar player in a band with two other guitar players, both of whom used tuners but either couldn't hear how out of tune he was, or wouldn't mention it. When I did, it cost me the gig. Oh well :rolleyes:

"There must be something wrong with your kick drum mic, it is speeding up."

In fairness, I think it is easy to take the piss when you have worked in an environment that is designed to hear everything down to the last detail.

I honestly think that some of the bands I have met have worked with rooms and equipment and ears that have made it impossible to hear some of the problems they are dealing with.

Maybe there is a call for a 'demo pre-production service', where a battle-hardened audio engineer rolls up and records one take of everything and prepares a scathing critique of the performance ?

Gets some of that bile out, and gives the young bands an idea of what they are dealing with, win-win

I am just joking really, if someone had of judged some of the tapes I found recently in such a manner, I probably would never have continued. Maybe best to forge ahead with the age-old 'yeah that was great, maybe try one more ?'

Caveat

"That click is definitely speeding up/slowing down"

"I don't want to record the guitar clean - I need the superfuzz/delay/overdrive/flanger/phaser on first so I can get more into into it"

(i.e. I need to cover up my sloppiness)

eviltimeban

Coming at it from the opposite side:

"You guys go off for a beer while we do the mixing."

Eh no thanks, I'd rather stay and prevent you from mixing it like sh*te and wasting the 400 quid I've spent on this lousy session.

That happened once - and we went off leaving them to it. The mix was rubbish and there wasn't anything I could do about it. From then on I vowed to either mix it myself or literally sit behind him the whole time pointing out what I didn't like (and did like). Unless of course he's already got the hang of what it should sound like - then you can go to the pub!

DamagedTrax

eviltimeban wrote: »

Coming at it from the opposite side:

"You guys go off for a beer while we do the mixing."

Eh no thanks, I'd rather stay and prevent you from mixing it like sh*te and wasting the 400 quid I've spent on this lousy session.

That happened once - and we went off leaving them to it. The mix was rubbish and there wasn't anything I could do about it. From then on I vowed to either mix it myself or literally sit behind him the whole time pointing out what I didn't like (and did like). Unless of course he's already got the hang of what it should sound like - then you can go to the pub!

my advice. go to a better engineer.

personally i wont have a band around while im mixing until the very last stages. no offence but most musicians have no idea of whats involved in mixing a record and the last thing you need is someone behind you telling you a hihat doesnt sound right because they cant see the bigger picture.

get a good engineer from the start. one who understands your music and then trust him and leave him be. if you're not happy with final result then sit in on revisions and get the changes made that you want.

Seziertisch

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

There is a difference between a good singer and a good vocalist. Tuning can be corrected, a lack of character can't.

PMI

DRUM ROLL PLEASE.............................































"WE'LL FIX IT IN THE MIX"







UH THANK YOU

krd

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

PMI

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

Totally correct

I dont mind people being inexperienced at anything in life but dont talk the talk before hand which is what alot of them do

TelePaul

"We're really going for that lo-fi sound here" i.e., "can you make that precision-engineered German microphone sound like the input on my dictaphone?"

"We're really going for that raw sound here" i.e., I can't play my instrument

Denalihighway

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

+1

unfortunately the fact this thread developed like it did indicates the level of elitism out there.

It reminds me of how computer technicians get shirty with people who don't understand how to fix what they perceive to be 'simple' things wrong with their computer. It's their job to be able to fix computer. And it's pathetic that they might get an ego-trip out of being so condescending. But they do...

I think producers sometimes revel in the cluelessness of bands in order to make the music they want to make. All the power is with them. "Just record dry, then we'll see where the song take us regarding effects etc" :rolleyes:

Translation - "I know how this song should sound better than you do (even though you've been rehearsing it for 2 years), so just surrender over your song and let the genius make it better"

I can't tell you how many bands have got poor results from this.

Granted, there are bands and songs who benefit from recording dry and there always will be, I've benefitted it from it myself and it is necessary. And I can imagine some bands that are nightmarish to deal with. But it's the palpable level of elitism out there that is really unfortunate. We know you are experienced musos, who have listened to lots of music, have technical abilities that we don't have they you've spent years learning and who can often wave songs in a beneficial directions ...but don't treat musicians like retards.

Who is perpetuating this Us vs them phenomenon I wonder?

How many of you have a good sit down with a band beforehand and explain the process and why they may have to do many things that don't seem natural?

How many of you have a e-sheet of preparations and requirements to email to your band that they should adher to so you don't have the hassle of wasting both your time before the session begins?

How many of you take a trip to their rehearsal room or let them bang out all the songs live in the studio, with full effects etc for a good hour or two, taking notes, maybe even doing an ambient room recording to get a good idea of what kind of soundscape the band is aspiring to?

All absolutely invaluable. If you don't do this, I can't for the life of me understand why.

Quit the feckin us VS them for jaysus sake! Make it better/easier/more productive.

TelePaul

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

I hear what you're saying but alot of the poor performances I've heard committed to tape are by bands or artists who genuinely have utmost faith in their (limited) ability. I've had huge issues in this regard and it;'s why is topped doing favours for friends.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

My mate's coming in to play violin. He's really good.

:eek: Shudder ...

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

No ! Or Siouxie Sioux ! .... or however she spells it.

However most lads don't sound good out of tune.

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

+1

unfortunately the fact this thread developed like it did indicates the level of elitism out there.

It reminds me of how computer technicians get shirty with people who don't understand how to fix what they perceive to be 'simple' things wrong with their computer. It's their job to be able to fix computer. And it's pathetic that they might get an ego-trip out of being so condescending. But they do...

I think producers sometimes revel in the cluelessness of bands in order to make the music they want to make. All the power is with them. "Just record dry, then we'll see where the song take us regarding effects etc" :rolleyes:

Translation - "I know how this song should sound better than you do (even though you've been rehearsing it for 2 years), so just surrender over your song and let the genius make it better"

I can't tell you how many bands have got poor results from this.

Granted, there are bands and songs who benefit from recording dry and there always will be, I've benefitted it from it myself and it is necessary. And I can imagine some bands that are nightmarish to deal with. But it's the palpable level of elitism out there that is really unfortunate. We know you are experienced musos, who have listened to lots of music, have technical abilities that we don't have they you've spent years learning and who can often wave songs in a beneficial directions ...but don't treat musicians like retards.

Who is perpetuating this Us vs them phenomenon I wonder?

How many of you have a good sit down with a band beforehand and explain the process and why they may have to do many things that don't seem natural?

How many of you have a e-sheet of preparations and requirements to email to your band that they should adher to so you don't have the hassle of wasting both your time before the session begins?

How many of you take a trip to their rehearsal room or let them bang out all the songs live in the studio, with full effects etc for a good hour or two, taking notes, maybe even doing an ambient room recording to get a good idea of what kind of soundscape the band is aspiring to?

All absolutely invaluable. If you don't do this, I can't for the life of me understand why.

Quit the feckin us VS them for jaysus sake! Make it better/easier/more productive.

Ah Denial , chill out will ya . We're only having a laugh.
A sense of humour is a prerequisite for good studio living.

Cliches become cliches for a reason after all.

However it swings both ways - a lot of engineer producers are set in their ways and that can cause friction with a band who just don't work the engineer/producers way.


I recently did a great short session with a band from Laois called Nova Static.

It was a day session for 1 track including mix - we chatted about how we'd approach the track .

We agreed we'd try with a click track and take it from there - the song had similarities musically to how someone like Ash might sound.

After a few takes it was clear that the click was indeed holding back the track so we went with a click start and rocked on from there.

After half an hour things had settled down nicely .... but the earlier energy wasn't there - so we took a break.

During lunch we looked at intonation and 15 mins after coming back a rocking track was thrashed out.

We did did an extra take of guitar and bass to have a plan B against the drum track - the vocalist then put down 3 vocals , we used take two.

The track is by no means perfect but is full of raw energy.

The point is to adapt.

We went at it one way, which failed..... so we went at it another way, which didn't.

Denalihighway

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah Denial , chill out will ya . We're only having a laugh.
A sense of humour is a prerequisite for good studio living.

Cliches become cliches for a reason after all.

However it swings both ways - a lot of engineer producers are set in their ways and that can cause friction with a band who just don't work the engineer/producers way.


I recently did a great short session with a band from Laois called Nova Static.

It was a day session for 1 track including mix - we chatted about how we'd approach the track .

We agreed we'd try with a click track and take it from there - the song had similarities musically to how someone like Ash might sound.

After a few takes it was clear that the click was indeed holding back the track so we went with a click start and rocked on from there.

After half an hour things had settled down nicely .... but the earlier energy wasn't there - so we took a break.

During lunch we looked at intonation and 15 mins after coming back a rocking track was thrashed out.

We did did an extra take of guitar and bass to have a plan B against the drum track - the vocalist then put down 3 vocals , we used take two.

The track is by no means perfect but is full of raw energy.

The point is to adapt.

We went at it one way, which failed..... so we went at it another way, which didn't.



I recently worked with a great band from Laois

(stands up quickly, redfaced, pointing) - I am chilled!! :pac:

I hear ya. I really do. I actually do find that shizzle funny but there's a serious side too and its like the elephant in the room sometimes.

Just felt it needed to be said. Perhaps I picked the wrong time.

Continue with musician pishtaking :P

(runs to 'Bands and Musicians' to set up new thread...)

Denalihighway

cliche # 20

over-earnest musicians

take some valium or get some exercise...

jtsuited

I'll tell you what though lads, engineers do themselves no favours by being smug (even if they have every right to be).
I remember being in a band and pretty much every engineer we worked with used to be a dick to us at the start (probably because we were young and arrogant).
I can think of three separate occassions where we got hand on heart apologies from an engineer when they saw that we knew what we were doing (or sort of had an idea).

In each case, it was of course mentioned 'young bands like you's are normally clueless dickheads and I find it easier to just be a prick'.

The decline in business for studios has never been partially blamed on the fact that most young bands are treated badly in their first experiences, but it really should be.

At the end of the day, you're gonna work with 1 decent band for every 20 sh1t ones. If you don't figure out how to not get annoyed with the vast majority, you're in the wrong business.

Also at the end of said day, if you're getting paid an hourly rate regardless, it really shouldn't get to you that 99% of musicians are way worse than they think they are, will always show up late, hungover or stoned, will think they are far cleverer than they are, will take an inhuman amount of time to do the simplest fcukin take, and will invite all their girlfriends' around near the end when it stops sounding so sh1te.

old gregg

"The more I toke, the better I play"

Pass me a joint man, I wanna lay down a jazz fusion solo in the middle of our 3 chord protest song, man.

Notes and disclaimers:
1 )I may have said something like the opening statement in '77 when I was a teenager in a band trying to marry my love of The Adverts with my love of Yes
2) wasn't jazz fusion the worst thing ever to happen to rock music?
3) drugs are bad, mkay

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

because we were young and arrogant).
.

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction' , who owns that law .... Newton was it ?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction' , who owns that law .... Newton was it ?

show me someone young who's good who is isn't arrogant and I'll show you someone who's actually decidedly mediocre.
In all areas really.

As good musicians get older they hide their self confidence and try so hard to exude an aura of humility because they realise they need the people around them to continue their success (and because they realise they're being pricks).

Soooo many classic examples of this in Irish music, it's a bit ridiculous at this stage.

madtheory

Good balance in this thread

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

show me someone young who's good who is isn't arrogant and I'll show you someone who's actually decidedly mediocre.
In all areas really.

As good musicians get older they hide their self confidence and try so hard to exude an aura of humility because they realise they need the people around them to continue their success (and because they realise they're being pricks).

Soooo many classic examples of this in Irish music, it's a bit ridiculous at this stage.

I don't understand JT.
Are you saying experienced musicians pretend to be humble ?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

I don't understand JT.
Are you saying experienced musicians pretend to be humble ?

Many truly great musicians, as time goes on, fake humility because they realise it gets them far further than honesty.

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

Many truly great musicians, as time goes on, fake humility because they realise it gets them far further than honesty.

That's a very sad way to look at the world..... and is completely at odds with my experience.

PMI

I see JT's point you fake parts of it, to get through to people when truly you know your the ABSOLUTE **** !!

Now wheres that mirror

GTE

"I cant hear myself"
*engineer pretends to adjust the monitor mix*
"Awh yeah! Awesome!"

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

That's a very sad way to look at the world..... and is completely at odds with my experience.

not really a sad way to look at the world whatsoever......I can think of at least 3 people who have had mega international success and have been quite honest about what they think of their abilities. When there are outsiders present, they of course humble it up, but in private with people they trust, they're quite open about it.

Paul, you've either never met somebody who was really genius, or else when you have you've been an 'outsider'. Obviously we are speaking in very general terms here, but I've yet to come across a genius who didn't know it.

The difference is, that as they get older they realise that even though people worship them the one thing they love more is seeing their idols being humble. It's a no brainer really when you figure out what's going on.

Rather than say things like 'jaysus that album is sh1te, can't even believe so-and-so is on the same label as me, etc.' they engage in the rampant backpatting, that keeps you in the life you have become accustomed to.

There's one guy in the techno community called Shed (real name Rene Pawlowitz) and he is the latest example of a guy who just speaks his mind. Needless to say, internet message boards have been alight with criticism of him lately because of 1 interview he did where he shared an honest opinion on some other records, and spoke of how easy it was for him to make some really huge dancefloor focused records lately.

The one thing insecure people can't stand more than anything else, is someone with talent who knows beyond of a shadow of a doubt that they've got talent. And there are a hell of a lot of insecure people out there.

I'll never get into quotes of what some very talented and successful have said off record, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about what I'm saying here.

That's why when young guys come along, they pretty much always get warned about their arrogance. Because they haven't figured out how to disguise it.

Me, I hate fake humility far more than an honest perspective. Far far more. So it really doesn't sadden me to look at the world this way.

woodsdenis

jtsuited wrote: »

not really a sad way to look at the world whatsoever......I can think of at least 3 people who have had mega international success and have been quite honest about what they think of their abilities. When there are outsiders present, they of course humble it up, but in private with people they trust, they're quite open about it.

Paul, you've either never met somebody who was really genius, or else when you have you've been an 'outsider'. Obviously we are speaking in very general terms here, but I've yet to come across a genius who didn't know it.

The difference is, that as they get older they realise that even though people worship them the one thing they love more is seeing their idols being humble. It's a no brainer really when you figure out what's going on.

Rather than say things like 'jaysus that album is sh1te, can't even believe so-and-so is on the same label as me, etc.' they engage in the rampant backpatting, that keeps you in the life you have become accustomed to.

There's one guy in the techno community called Shed (real name Rene Pawlowitz) and he is the latest example of a guy who just speaks his mind. Needless to say, internet message boards have been alight with criticism of him lately because of 1 interview he did where he shared an honest opinion on some other records, and spoke of how easy it was for him to make some really huge dancefloor focused records lately.

The one thing insecure people can't stand more than anything else, is someone with talent who knows beyond of a shadow of a doubt that they've got talent. And there are a hell of a lot of insecure people out there.

I'll never get into quotes of what some very talented and successful have said off record, but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind about what I'm saying here.

That's why when young guys come along, they pretty much always get warned about their arrogance. Because they haven't figured out how to disguise it.

Me, I hate fake humility far more than an honest perspective. Far far more. So it really doesn't sadden me to look at the world this way.

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

Doge

counterpointaud wrote: »

"There must be something wrong with your kick drum mic, it is speeding up."

I LOL'd!

krd

woodsdenis wrote: »

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

I don't know. People are always misunderstanding my stupidity for arrogance and over confidence.

But - do hate this Irish thing of expecting people to be like, "Oh beggorra, I'm only a poor little leprechaun - beggorra" And - it does lead to much worse - the most obnoxious and arrogant bollokses putting on a fake humility. (Actually this discussion makes want to go out an break the fingers on some Irish trad fiddlers I've known. )

There's absolutely nothing wrong with self confidence - in reality we have a lack of it. Talentless gob****es having too much is a problem but lacking self-confidence has held so many talented people back.

Paul Brewer, Jstuited .... if I'm ever in a studio with either of you - and either of you try on a mind game to undermine my self-confidence - I will take a knife from my pocket - and I will cut both eyes of yours, straight out of your ****ing heads (I have this worked out - if you're blind, you can't pick me out of a line up as the guy -- there may be other witnesses but the may like the ability to see stuff - they may like to hang onto their eyes)


I have never understood this problem people have with people who have self-confidence. What's wrong?

What's wrong?

Is it something like - you hate people who had more balls to do things that you didn't have the balls to do?

Too scared to sing?

Too scared to sing?

Too scared to sing?

buck buck buck buck Kaah - chicken noise

i57dwun4yb1pt8

<cop megaphone>
KRD, PUT DOWN THE BOTTLE OF ABSINTH , NOW !
< end cop megaphone >

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

I don't know. People are always misunderstanding my stupidity for arrogance and over confidence.

No they're not ....

PaulBrewer

woodsdenis wrote: »

Personally I dont like arrogance, it shouldn't be confused with confidence though. In my experience arrogant musos/artists use it to cover up insecurity and more often than not a complete lack of talent. The most truly talented people I have worked with have been extremely humble, definitely not fake humilty. I think it comes from being secure in your own abilities and not having to critisize others to make oneself look better, smarter or superior.

I'd agree Denis. Having worked with some of the finest musicians here in Ireland and spent time with quite a few Studio Gods internationally - there is a common celebration of music among them, they appreciate that they have talent.

jtsuited

krd wrote: »

There's absolutely nothing wrong with self confidence - in reality we have a lack of it. Talentless gob****es having too much is a problem but lacking self-confidence has held so many talented people back.

Paul Brewer, Jstuited .... if I'm ever in a studio with either of you - and either of you try on a mind game to undermine my self-confidence - I will take a knife from my pocket - and I will cut both eyes of yours, straight out of your ****ing heads (I have this worked out - if you're blind, you can't pick me out of a line up as the guy -- there may be other witnesses but the may like the ability to see stuff - they may like to hang onto their eyes)

wtf????? lol

I'd never do any of that sh1te. My way of working with difficult musicians is just show them I understand what's going on. Surprisingly enough, I've never really had too much of a problem with anyone I work with once they see that I actually do know what I'm doing.

And that goes for being a young arrogant musician laying down the law with curmudgeony engineers, to recording mates' bands trying to keep the love of the music the most important vibe in the room.

The amount of people who are very good at what they do, know it and are honest about it, that get called arrogant wánkers is astounding. And maybe it's Irish begrudgery that forces many into fake humility, because it's certainly more rife in Ireland than anywhere else.

Some people (if not most), cannot spot fake humility because a) it's very easy to say 'sure I just do what I do, can't believe the whole world makes such a fuss about me, I'm so lucky, there is sooooo much undiscovered talent out there etc.' (probably the most cliched thing to ever say after you get your 'break')
and
b) it's much nicer to think of your idols as being down to earth and just like you. It suits everyone better.

The reality of the situation is (as many of you are quick to point out), musical success is a result of such hard work, dedication, focus, deliberate moves, and of course an overabundance of talent etc. that the chances of anyone who actually does mega-spectacularly being just some happy-go-lucky humble type is fairly slim.

I can think of one particular Irish artist who pulled the whole humility-after-success thing, but as time went on lost the energy to keep it up, and ended up pretty much refusing all interviews with anyone anymore because of how badly uppity journalists were taking him when he was honest.

DamagedTrax

take the ego/arrogance away from some genius musicians and you're left with nothing.

and i dont mean that the ego is all that they are, i mean that the ego is part of them as a person and is partially responsible for them becoming the genius that they are.

morrisey
corgan
mascis
weller
prince

would they really have achieved all that they have by being humble? personally i dont think so.

jtsuited

good point damaged. people who have godlike images of themselves often tend to set godlike standards for themselves (hence the reason mental illness runs rampant amongst those types too).

PaulBrewer

DamagedTrax wrote: »

take the ego/arrogance away from some genius musicians and you're left with nothing.

and i dont mean that the ego is all that they are, i mean that the ego is part of them as a person and is partially responsible for them becoming the genius that they are.

morrisey
corgan
mascis
weller
prince

would they really have achieved all that they have by being humble? personally i dont think so.

But they don't pretend otherwise and that's JTs point - I have acquaintances who work with 2 of your list and who say they're both good, if driven, and therefore demanding, guys.

It's the idea that because you're talented you pretend to be something you're not that galls i.e. humble - which is a disservice to the many talented people I've had the pleasure of working with.

Being talented is a positive not a negative.

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

But they don't pretend otherwise and that's JTs point - I have acquaintances who work with 2 of your list and who say they're both good, if driven, guys.

I can guarantee for every one of those two guys who say that there are literally hundreds of journalists who have got seriously pissed off with their 'arrogance'. Just look at the stuff that has been written about Corgan being an egomaniac control freak in the years since Melon Collie.

When really he's just a guy with an uncompromising vision and also knows that he's got more talent in his left toe than the rest of the people he has worked with have combined.

Is it just coincidence that certain musicians who achieve massive success are known as hugely humble while others (who have achieved the same) are legendarily arrogant, egomaniacal, narcissistic and controlling? Or is it that some guys figure out how to fake humility and cover up the very personality traits that got them the success in the first place.

Is it a coincidence that in areas of massive begrudgery towards successful people (Ireland basically), that more of these musicians are present?

Couple these questions of probability with the fact that every sap you ever meet who has met a famous musician will either say either of the following

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

I can guarantee for every one of those two guys who say that there are literally hundreds of journalists who have got seriously pissed off with their 'arrogance'. Just look at the stuff that has been written about Corgan being an egomaniac control freak in the years since Melon Collie.

When really he's just a guy with an uncompromising vision and also knows that he's got more talent in his left toe than the rest of the people he has worked with have combined.

But has he released anything since Melon Collie that warrants the genius tag. I haven't followed his career very closely as I was never a fan but it seems the conventional wisdom is he's gone off the boil. And of the people that DT listed, these were for the most part people whose halcyon days were when they worked in collaboration with somebody else (Weller with the Jam, Corgan with the Pumpkins, Mascis with Barlow and Dinosaur Jr, Morrissey with the Smiths, Prince being the notable exception). Having an ego is one thing, having an ego go unchecked is another.

jtsuited wrote: »

Is it just coincidence that certain musicians who achieve massive success are known as hugely humble while others (who have achieved the same) are legendarily arrogant, egomaniacal, narcissistic and controlling? Or is it that some guys figure out how to fake humility and cover up the very personality traits that got them the success in the first place.

Or, maybe people react to success in different ways. Some might see it as vindication of all their most obnoxious traits, others might see as just a continuation of a journey. Look at Bowie, Dylan, Plant and Springsteen. All massively talented, all know but all still searching and still curious (well, maybe apart from Bowie, has he retired fully). All would have had issues in their time but seem (from my point of view anyways) to possess some modicum of self control and knowledge of the importance of the other people they play with.

jtsuited wrote: »

Is it a coincidence that in areas of massive begrudgery towards successful people (Ireland basically), that more of these musicians are present?

Not entirely sure what you mean here exactly. Are you saying Ireland we begrudge musicians success? I don't think it's really confined to Ireland, look at Melody Maker's 'Build them up and knock them down' mentality of the Late 80s and 90s. Most of the criticism directed at Corgan would seem to come from England and America and Morrissey has always been a target of the British Press (in fairness he does their job for them).

jtsuited wrote: »

Couple these questions of probability with the fact that every sap you ever meet who has met a famous musician will either say either of the following

1. 'He was dead sound. So humble, soooo down to earth' (subtext: i met a famous person and they thought I was cool, so therefore I am cool, and I like to talk about them as if they're just one of my many peers).

or

2. 'He was an ignorant cúnt. Blanked me completely. Tried to tell him about my band and he didn't give a fcuk.' (subtext: he burst my bubble, made me feel like sh1t, and from now on anytime anyone brings the guy up in conversation I'm gonna badmouth him as a guy who's ego has completely overblown)

Well they always say 'Don't meet your heroes' and a lot of the time it seems to be true. But I think this goes back to the point I made about how people handle success. Some like it, some hate it. Sometimes you might catch these people on a good day, sometimes on a bad. Same thing applies here I think. Having an ego is okay and healthy, unbridled arrogance isn't.

PaulBrewer

People going on about Billy Corgan as if he's a mate .....

There's a cliche right there.