Cliches

PaulBrewer

Let's hear some of the recording cliches that, if you're in the Biz more than a week, you start to see.

A few off the top of my head -

Making CDs look like vinyl ... older than CDs themselves .... nearly.

'We're all rehearsed' ..... Oh no you dihn't

SeanHurley

After performing a car crash of a take: "I can't really hear myself, is the mic on????"

jtsuited

"I much prefer playing without the click. Far more organic sounding"

In 99% of cases it means 'I can't play to a click so I'm deluding myself to protect my fragile ego'.

CoolDudesJunk

- Putting wayyy to much effects on a track to mask that it's crap
- Doing a bad take, doing it again, and again until finally you revert to the first one.
- Making drums sound ****e because your mic can't take the db.
- Everything sounds awful cos you couldn't find the thingy that plug the other thingy into the computer. (still can't find my m-audio)

ebaysellerrob

the engineer recked our song cos we could not play in time or in tune so he used auto tune and beat detective the right way or dont use auto tune we dont wanna sound like cher

madtheory

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'We're all rehearsed' ..... Oh no you dihn't

That's a well worn cliché alright...

trackmixstudio

All of these in the last couple of months!

I don't like Les Pauls. I used to have an Epiphone one.

Of course my guitar is intonated.

I use 10 gauge strings (tuned to B standard)

It has got new strings. I only put them on a couple of months ago.

Of course my Floyd Rose guitar stays in tune.

I know the kick pattern changes every chorus. That's how the song goes.

I always play what the guitar does (on bass). Why would I play with the drums?.

I can't hear the drum roll speeding up and landing ahead of the beat.

My mate's coming in to play violin. He's really good.

I don't want autotune on my (tuneless) vocals.

Can you give me a copy of that plugin?

Do you have drum sticks in the studio?

I need you for a voice over session this afternoon. Will you drop everything, come to the opposite end of the city, arrive early, and go home through rush hour traffic. The session will last an hour so is €50 ok?.

I need to get my film mixed. I can't pay you anything but the film is great and I will give you a credit in the titles.

We are playing in Fibbers next week. Can I borrow your Mesa rectifier stack?

Will you do our live sound ?. We will buy you a few beers.

ETC ETC

krd

madtheory wrote: »

That's a well worn cliché alright...

Hey, Milli Vanilli never had to rehearse.

They worked on their hair - and if only - I'm just saying - if only other people put as much time and effort into their hair as they do into their indie rock - I'm just saying.

krd

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

trackmixstudio

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

Totally agree. Character is FAR more important than tuning, but when the singer has no character and is trying and failing to sing in tune it is painful.
Some kid in a pop punk band is a far cry from Dylan/Lennon etc.
I would never use autotune when it's not needed or takes away from the performance.

krd

trackmixstudio wrote: »

Totally agree. Character is FAR more important than tuning, but when the singer has no character and is trying and failing to sing in tune it is painful.
Some kid in a pop punk band is a far cry from Dylan/Lennon etc.
I would never use autotune when it's not needed or takes away from the performance.

Dylan and especially Lennon - were always in tune. if you want to learn to sing in tune the best practice is singing close harmony - I used to do it with a friend. I'd like to do it again - but need to find somebody - When you get it right it's really impressive - I'd really like to do an Everly brothers thing with someone. (Me and Paul Brewer - he'll have to lose some weight and dye the hair - I'll have to put on some weight - so we can meet half way in the middle)

Anyway - as the story goes - Bono had his epiphany on the release of their first single - where he realised HE COULD NOT ******** SING. And he then he learned.

Bad Singers are plainly bad - good singers use going slightly off as part of their toolbox. The first time you hear Morrisey he sounds off - same with Dylan. And the same with Sinatra - they're deliberately bending out. Morrisey is a great singer - like Sinatra - he comes in most of the time just slightly off to create a slightly discordant sound with the music.

Sinatra in the 50s. There were lots of crooners around - and most of them sung perfectly in tune. Sinatras thing was always teasing the edge of being in tune - listen to the stuff; fly me to the moon, and let me play among the stars. I'd like to see what the weather's like on Jupiter and Mars. He's just doing great stuff with it - he's like going "I'm going to play around, be very close - but most times I'll be slightly sharp or flat - occasionally, i will lay some Jazz on you" - and considering the original song was in Japanese - he's possibly incorporating Japanese atonal techniques.

counterpointaud

"I don't believe in electronic tuners, I like to tune by ear" - Young electric guitar player in a band with two other guitar players, both of whom used tuners but either couldn't hear how out of tune he was, or wouldn't mention it. When I did, it cost me the gig. Oh well :rolleyes:

"There must be something wrong with your kick drum mic, it is speeding up."

In fairness, I think it is easy to take the piss when you have worked in an environment that is designed to hear everything down to the last detail.

I honestly think that some of the bands I have met have worked with rooms and equipment and ears that have made it impossible to hear some of the problems they are dealing with.

Maybe there is a call for a 'demo pre-production service', where a battle-hardened audio engineer rolls up and records one take of everything and prepares a scathing critique of the performance ?

Gets some of that bile out, and gives the young bands an idea of what they are dealing with, win-win

I am just joking really, if someone had of judged some of the tapes I found recently in such a manner, I probably would never have continued. Maybe best to forge ahead with the age-old 'yeah that was great, maybe try one more ?'

Caveat

"That click is definitely speeding up/slowing down"

"I don't want to record the guitar clean - I need the superfuzz/delay/overdrive/flanger/phaser on first so I can get more into into it"

(i.e. I need to cover up my sloppiness)

eviltimeban

Coming at it from the opposite side:

"You guys go off for a beer while we do the mixing."

Eh no thanks, I'd rather stay and prevent you from mixing it like sh*te and wasting the 400 quid I've spent on this lousy session.

That happened once - and we went off leaving them to it. The mix was rubbish and there wasn't anything I could do about it. From then on I vowed to either mix it myself or literally sit behind him the whole time pointing out what I didn't like (and did like). Unless of course he's already got the hang of what it should sound like - then you can go to the pub!

DamagedTrax

eviltimeban wrote: »

Coming at it from the opposite side:

"You guys go off for a beer while we do the mixing."

Eh no thanks, I'd rather stay and prevent you from mixing it like sh*te and wasting the 400 quid I've spent on this lousy session.

That happened once - and we went off leaving them to it. The mix was rubbish and there wasn't anything I could do about it. From then on I vowed to either mix it myself or literally sit behind him the whole time pointing out what I didn't like (and did like). Unless of course he's already got the hang of what it should sound like - then you can go to the pub!

my advice. go to a better engineer.

personally i wont have a band around while im mixing until the very last stages. no offence but most musicians have no idea of whats involved in mixing a record and the last thing you need is someone behind you telling you a hihat doesnt sound right because they cant see the bigger picture.

get a good engineer from the start. one who understands your music and then trust him and leave him be. if you're not happy with final result then sit in on revisions and get the changes made that you want.

Seziertisch

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

Or Lou Reed?

I think Dylan was always perfectly in tune. I seriously think he was.

There is a difference between a good singer and a good vocalist. Tuning can be corrected, a lack of character can't.

PMI

DRUM ROLL PLEASE.............................































"WE'LL FIX IT IN THE MIX"







UH THANK YOU

krd

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

PMI

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

Totally correct

I dont mind people being inexperienced at anything in life but dont talk the talk before hand which is what alot of them do

TelePaul

"We're really going for that lo-fi sound here" i.e., "can you make that precision-engineered German microphone sound like the input on my dictaphone?"

"We're really going for that raw sound here" i.e., I can't play my instrument

Denalihighway

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

+1

unfortunately the fact this thread developed like it did indicates the level of elitism out there.

It reminds me of how computer technicians get shirty with people who don't understand how to fix what they perceive to be 'simple' things wrong with their computer. It's their job to be able to fix computer. And it's pathetic that they might get an ego-trip out of being so condescending. But they do...

I think producers sometimes revel in the cluelessness of bands in order to make the music they want to make. All the power is with them. "Just record dry, then we'll see where the song take us regarding effects etc" :rolleyes:

Translation - "I know how this song should sound better than you do (even though you've been rehearsing it for 2 years), so just surrender over your song and let the genius make it better"

I can't tell you how many bands have got poor results from this.

Granted, there are bands and songs who benefit from recording dry and there always will be, I've benefitted it from it myself and it is necessary. And I can imagine some bands that are nightmarish to deal with. But it's the palpable level of elitism out there that is really unfortunate. We know you are experienced musos, who have listened to lots of music, have technical abilities that we don't have they you've spent years learning and who can often wave songs in a beneficial directions ...but don't treat musicians like retards.

Who is perpetuating this Us vs them phenomenon I wonder?

How many of you have a good sit down with a band beforehand and explain the process and why they may have to do many things that don't seem natural?

How many of you have a e-sheet of preparations and requirements to email to your band that they should adher to so you don't have the hassle of wasting both your time before the session begins?

How many of you take a trip to their rehearsal room or let them bang out all the songs live in the studio, with full effects etc for a good hour or two, taking notes, maybe even doing an ambient room recording to get a good idea of what kind of soundscape the band is aspiring to?

All absolutely invaluable. If you don't do this, I can't for the life of me understand why.

Quit the feckin us VS them for jaysus sake! Make it better/easier/more productive.

TelePaul

krd wrote: »

You're all such whiny pr1cks.


If ye have so much trouble with people turning up unprepared - why don't ye give them all preparation sheets of stuff to do before they turn up. Give them a few weeks before the booking to get ready. There are people who are awful - but inexperienced people can't really be blamed for being inexperienced.

I hear what you're saying but alot of the poor performances I've heard committed to tape are by bands or artists who genuinely have utmost faith in their (limited) ability. I've had huge issues in this regard and it;'s why is topped doing favours for friends.

PaulBrewer

trackmixstudio wrote: »

My mate's coming in to play violin. He's really good.

:eek: Shudder ...

PaulBrewer

krd wrote: »

A question?

Do you think Ian Mculloch's vocals (echo and the bunnymen) would have sound better with Autotune?

No ! Or Siouxie Sioux ! .... or however she spells it.

However most lads don't sound good out of tune.

PaulBrewer

Denalihighway wrote: »

+1

unfortunately the fact this thread developed like it did indicates the level of elitism out there.

It reminds me of how computer technicians get shirty with people who don't understand how to fix what they perceive to be 'simple' things wrong with their computer. It's their job to be able to fix computer. And it's pathetic that they might get an ego-trip out of being so condescending. But they do...

I think producers sometimes revel in the cluelessness of bands in order to make the music they want to make. All the power is with them. "Just record dry, then we'll see where the song take us regarding effects etc" :rolleyes:

Translation - "I know how this song should sound better than you do (even though you've been rehearsing it for 2 years), so just surrender over your song and let the genius make it better"

I can't tell you how many bands have got poor results from this.

Granted, there are bands and songs who benefit from recording dry and there always will be, I've benefitted it from it myself and it is necessary. And I can imagine some bands that are nightmarish to deal with. But it's the palpable level of elitism out there that is really unfortunate. We know you are experienced musos, who have listened to lots of music, have technical abilities that we don't have they you've spent years learning and who can often wave songs in a beneficial directions ...but don't treat musicians like retards.

Who is perpetuating this Us vs them phenomenon I wonder?

How many of you have a good sit down with a band beforehand and explain the process and why they may have to do many things that don't seem natural?

How many of you have a e-sheet of preparations and requirements to email to your band that they should adher to so you don't have the hassle of wasting both your time before the session begins?

How many of you take a trip to their rehearsal room or let them bang out all the songs live in the studio, with full effects etc for a good hour or two, taking notes, maybe even doing an ambient room recording to get a good idea of what kind of soundscape the band is aspiring to?

All absolutely invaluable. If you don't do this, I can't for the life of me understand why.

Quit the feckin us VS them for jaysus sake! Make it better/easier/more productive.

Ah Denial , chill out will ya . We're only having a laugh.
A sense of humour is a prerequisite for good studio living.

Cliches become cliches for a reason after all.

However it swings both ways - a lot of engineer producers are set in their ways and that can cause friction with a band who just don't work the engineer/producers way.


I recently did a great short session with a band from Laois called Nova Static.

It was a day session for 1 track including mix - we chatted about how we'd approach the track .

We agreed we'd try with a click track and take it from there - the song had similarities musically to how someone like Ash might sound.

After a few takes it was clear that the click was indeed holding back the track so we went with a click start and rocked on from there.

After half an hour things had settled down nicely .... but the earlier energy wasn't there - so we took a break.

During lunch we looked at intonation and 15 mins after coming back a rocking track was thrashed out.

We did did an extra take of guitar and bass to have a plan B against the drum track - the vocalist then put down 3 vocals , we used take two.

The track is by no means perfect but is full of raw energy.

The point is to adapt.

We went at it one way, which failed..... so we went at it another way, which didn't.

Denalihighway

PaulBrewer wrote: »

Ah Denial , chill out will ya . We're only having a laugh.
A sense of humour is a prerequisite for good studio living.

Cliches become cliches for a reason after all.

However it swings both ways - a lot of engineer producers are set in their ways and that can cause friction with a band who just don't work the engineer/producers way.


I recently did a great short session with a band from Laois called Nova Static.

It was a day session for 1 track including mix - we chatted about how we'd approach the track .

We agreed we'd try with a click track and take it from there - the song had similarities musically to how someone like Ash might sound.

After a few takes it was clear that the click was indeed holding back the track so we went with a click start and rocked on from there.

After half an hour things had settled down nicely .... but the earlier energy wasn't there - so we took a break.

During lunch we looked at intonation and 15 mins after coming back a rocking track was thrashed out.

We did did an extra take of guitar and bass to have a plan B against the drum track - the vocalist then put down 3 vocals , we used take two.

The track is by no means perfect but is full of raw energy.

The point is to adapt.

We went at it one way, which failed..... so we went at it another way, which didn't.



I recently worked with a great band from Laois

(stands up quickly, redfaced, pointing) - I am chilled!! :pac:

I hear ya. I really do. I actually do find that shizzle funny but there's a serious side too and its like the elephant in the room sometimes.

Just felt it needed to be said. Perhaps I picked the wrong time.

Continue with musician pishtaking :P

(runs to 'Bands and Musicians' to set up new thread...)

Denalihighway

cliche # 20

over-earnest musicians

take some valium or get some exercise...

jtsuited

I'll tell you what though lads, engineers do themselves no favours by being smug (even if they have every right to be).
I remember being in a band and pretty much every engineer we worked with used to be a dick to us at the start (probably because we were young and arrogant).
I can think of three separate occassions where we got hand on heart apologies from an engineer when they saw that we knew what we were doing (or sort of had an idea).

In each case, it was of course mentioned 'young bands like you's are normally clueless dickheads and I find it easier to just be a prick'.

The decline in business for studios has never been partially blamed on the fact that most young bands are treated badly in their first experiences, but it really should be.

At the end of the day, you're gonna work with 1 decent band for every 20 sh1t ones. If you don't figure out how to not get annoyed with the vast majority, you're in the wrong business.

Also at the end of said day, if you're getting paid an hourly rate regardless, it really shouldn't get to you that 99% of musicians are way worse than they think they are, will always show up late, hungover or stoned, will think they are far cleverer than they are, will take an inhuman amount of time to do the simplest fcukin take, and will invite all their girlfriends' around near the end when it stops sounding so sh1te.

old gregg

"The more I toke, the better I play"

Pass me a joint man, I wanna lay down a jazz fusion solo in the middle of our 3 chord protest song, man.

Notes and disclaimers:
1 )I may have said something like the opening statement in '77 when I was a teenager in a band trying to marry my love of The Adverts with my love of Yes
2) wasn't jazz fusion the worst thing ever to happen to rock music?
3) drugs are bad, mkay

PaulBrewer

jtsuited wrote: »

because we were young and arrogant).
.

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction' , who owns that law .... Newton was it ?

jtsuited

PaulBrewer wrote: »

'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction' , who owns that law .... Newton was it ?

show me someone young who's good who is isn't arrogant and I'll show you someone who's actually decidedly mediocre.
In all areas really.

As good musicians get older they hide their self confidence and try so hard to exude an aura of humility because they realise they need the people around them to continue their success (and because they realise they're being pricks).

Soooo many classic examples of this in Irish music, it's a bit ridiculous at this stage.