Nature in the News

magicbastarder

i found this article from four years ago, which uses the corker of a line (in relation to a decline in hill farming of sheep):

The environment will also be damaged, because agriculture is acknowledged as the only way to sustain uplands socially, economically, and environmentally.

also

The hill sheep farmers with average income of €14,743 got subsidies of various kinds amounting to €18,301.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-20443612.html
so we pay hill farmers €18k per year to lose €3.5k. why not just ask them to stick their feet up and not lose any money? how much would ireland's agricultural output fall by?

I know, makes zero sense as we are going on now. I suppose the social/cultural aspect must be considered. Something like the Burren Life project, but on a much larger scale. You get paid for achieving certain environmental objectives, the land is scored on its habitat quality, how that is achieved is up to the farmers.

Sheep farming has few upsides; it would be a shame to lose the working dogs and dog handling skills, and rare breed sheep. A recent ecological disaster, the late 1980s onwards overgrazing caused by headage payments, has left ruined landscapes, worst in west Galway and Mayo, that will take even longer to recover from.

But when you have semiwits like Charlie McConalogue speaking of mythical benefits of burning, it is hard to be optimistic.

deise08

Has anyone heard anything about this?


https://www.buzz.ie/news/irish-news/irish-activist-killed-burkina-faso-23996308?fbclid=IwAR3y504lVcO0dSad3t95M8QF7E8KCxbqKiYSiXq38CBTzdfEt2HqFYzOa7g


Irish wildlife activist among three killed by jihadists in Burkina Faso ambush
Rory Young was shot dead along with two reporters in Burkina Faso on Monday evening, after the anti-poaching patrol they were on was ambushed.

Rory Young (48) was shot dead with reporters David Beriain (44) and Roberto Fraile (47) in Burkina Faso on Monday evening, after the anti-poaching patrol they were on was ambushed.

Mr Young, who was born and bred in Zambia but has an Irish passport and is an Irish citizen, was one of Africa’s best-known conservationists.

He was founder and president of the Chengeta Wildlife Foundation, which trains rangers to fight poachers all over Africa.

The ambush in the Fada N’gourma Pama area was being blamed on the Jamaat Nusrat al-Islam group, which is closely linked to al Qaeda.

The three men were kidnapped in the attack, but their bodies were found early yesterday and observers believe they were murdered within minutes of being abducted.

Yellow_Fern

Deleted User wrote: »

I know, makes zero sense as we are going on now. I suppose the social/cultural aspect must be considered. Something like the Burren Life project, but on a much larger scale. You get paid for achieving certain environmental objectives, the land is scored on its habitat quality, how that is achieved is up to the farmers.

Sheep farming has few upsides; it would be a shame to lose the working dogs and dog handling skills, and rare breed sheep. A recent ecological disaster, the late 1980s onwards overgrazing caused by headage payments, has left ruined landscapes, worst in west Galway and Mayo, that will take even longer to recover from.

But when you have semiwits like Charlie McConalogue speaking of mythical benefits of burning, it is hard to be optimistic.

Prescribed fires are very good for many species. The red grouse famously benefits from fires. Even European oakwoods are thought to be fire adapted.

Birdnuts

Deleted User wrote: »

I think the problem is the intermediate type vegetation, gorse and bracken, and to a lesser extent Purple Moor-grass.

These first two species are not abundant in any stable natural habitat. The current practices of sheep grazing, which selectively browse other species, leave these. The gorse in particular is seen as a problem and then burnt. This does not of course remove it.

I think removal of all grazing within the park is necessary straight away. Then payment to allow regeneration to woodland on upland areas nearby. Temperate woodland doesn't burn; isolated trees and interspersed patches of course succumb, but not reasonable stands.

Hardy traditional upland cattle breeds would deal with alot of these problems - sadly that tradition has nearly been lost due to the intensification of farming in general that favoured softer breeds that needed better forage and winter housing. At least some EU schemes now recognise that with the Hen Harrier scheme in particular paying farmers to manage gorse, Matt Grass etc in such a way that recreates traditional upland habitats using Dexter etc. cattle

magicbastarder

i was actually just reading the chapter in 'whittled away' last night which deals with this - he does mention that the sheep/cattle habits have been reversed, that it used to be cattle associated with upland grazing, and sheep with lowland grazing.

Yellow_Fern

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

Prescribed fires are very good for many species. The red grouse famously benefits from fires. Even European oakwoods are thought to be fire adapted.

Beyond Red Grouse, and the burning for that creates an unnatural abundance, at a huge environmental cost, I don't think many native species benefit from burning, prescribed or otherwise. I have explored many post burn sites, from immediately to several years post fire and the same opportunists thrive.

Having said that, I have seen oak seedlings emerge in a small area of burned gorse. No grazing there.

Thelonious Monk

This is what you're up against

https://twitter.com/whittledaway/status/1388079985970274304

Eddie B

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

This is what you're up against

https://twitter.com/whittledaway/status/1388079985970274304

It's supply and demand. Simple as that. Unless we stop eating lamb, we can't really complain.

magicbastarder

how productive are the uplands?
e.g. what's the yield per hectare of an upland farm compared to a lowland farm, say?

Del.Monte

The level of some people's stupidity is beyond belief but at 62 years of age nothing surprises me anymore.

Ospreys' nesting platform cut down in 'horrific act of vandalism'

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-56955084

Thelonious Monk

Eddie B wrote: »

It's supply and demand. Simple as that. Unless we stop eating lamb, we can't really complain.

I don't eat it myself, but if not having any biodiversity on the island is a repercussion of eating lamb we really need to decide which is more important.

Eddie B

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

I don't eat it myself, but if not having any biodiversity on the island is a repercussion of eating lamb we really need to decide which is more important.

I agree. Being part of the EU means that farmers are expected and encouraged to use every inch of their land for production. Be it livestock or crops. Both of which have a negative effect on biodiversity. Fir the farmer, their hands are pretty much tied. Its Either sink or swim for them. So for me personally, I blame our government for the state of the countryside, far more than ghe farmers.

Of course the government will also say, that their hands are tied, and so nothing will change.

magicbastarder

well, the green junior minister has called up mcconalogue to revisit the rules which penalise farmers for letting land become 'unproductive'.

i saw a tweet earlier which had been (supposedly! i can't verify this) made by a farmer who was denied some subsidies for having a large beech in a field, that it meant the field wasn't under as much grass as the farmer had been claiming. the point was being made that having a tree to shelter under is better for the animals, but that the subsidies penalised them for it.

Thelonious Monk

On the other hand there were cases of fraud where farmers were claiming CAP for sheep that didn't exist. The whole system needs to be redrawn with a focus on biodiversity, I feel like we're getting there slowly but surely so hopefully things improve for the better.

Yellow_Fern

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

On the other hand there were cases of fraud where farmers were claiming CAP for sheep that didn't exist. The whole system needs to be redrawn with a focus on biodiversity, I feel like we're getting there slowly but surely so hopefully things improve for the better.

I agree that reform is needed but it isnt right for people to live of subsidies. It is just unethical. Farmers want to make food, not biodiversity and food production should be the aim

Birdnuts

magicbastarder wrote: »

well, the green junior minister has called up mcconalogue to revisit the rules which penalise farmers for letting land become 'unproductive'.

i saw a tweet earlier which had been (supposedly! i can't verify this) made by a farmer who was denied some subsidies for having a large beech in a field, that it meant the field wasn't under as much grass as the farmer had been claiming. the point was being made that having a tree to shelter under is better for the animals, but that the subsidies penalised them for it.

The so called "rules" come under an EU policy called GAEC(Good Agricultural Enviromental Conditions) - the problem in this country is that the likes of DAFM have always ignored the E element.

Birdnuts

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

I agree that reform is needed but it isnt right for people to live of subsidies. It is just unethical. Farmers want to make food, not biodiversity and food production should be the aim

Whats wrong with paying farmers to maintain water quality, biodiversity etc. from which we all benefit??. The likes of Beef and many other agri commodities are already over produced which is why headage payments went in the early 2000s. Throw in issues like massive food waste and obesity and its pretty obvious that the whole approach in flogging land to death for ever more intensive farming makes no sense on any level.

flyingsnail

High hopes cranes will breed in Ireland again after 300 years


A pair of cranes are nesting on a rewetted bog in the Midlands, Bord na Móna has confirmed. If they successfully breed, it is believed they will be the first common cranes to do so in Ireland for 300 years.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/high-hopes-cranes-will-breed-in-ireland-again-after-300-years-1.4553722?fbclid=IwAR2514B1qS66ybq9DnpBQjYPRU1N89NV6jcTYKDT5_jzBt_AyMOKZ4izeQo

fryup

down my way some people call Herons Cranes, very confusing

magicbastarder

Birdnuts wrote: »

The so called "rules" come under an EU policy called GAEC(Good Agricultural Enviromental Conditions) - the problem in this country is that the likes of DAFM have always ignored the E element.

Opinion: Our farm subsidy model is broken and causing destruction to habitats
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/opinion-cash-cow-subsidies-5402647-May2021/

appledrop

fryup wrote: »

down my way some people call Herons Cranes, very confusing

My mother does the same, must be just the way it was years ago.

appledrop

It will be amazing if Cranes nest here again.

At zoo yesterday and slimmer pickings for Herons compared to busier times.

Had to laugh at signs saying not too feed the Herons. I've never seen anyone feeding them only the Herons grabbing burgers out of people hands!

Yellow_Fern

Birdnuts wrote: »

Whats wrong with paying farmers to maintain water quality, biodiversity etc. from which we all benefit??. The likes of Beef and many other agri commodities are already over produced which is why headage payments went in the early 2000s. Throw in issues like massive food waste and obesity and its pretty obvious that the whole approach in flogging land to death for ever more intensive farming makes no sense on any level.

It just seems very unethical to me and is just another welfare class in society. Telling farmers to produce less because some people are fat and some people waste food is like telling Google to turn gmail off at certain times because some people over use it. Farmers are best at farming, not managing biodiversity and its delusional to think there isnt a conflict. What would be better is just beak uplands into richer soil areas maybe 1/3 where basically encourage investment for intensification with zero rules and zero subsidies provided you dont damage water systems and poorer areas (2/3 of land) were there is either rewilding or zero subsidy light grazing.

Capercaillie

Yellow_Fern wrote: »

It just seems very unethical to me and is just another welfare class in society. Telling farmers to produce less because some people are fat and some people waste food is like telling Google to turn gmail off at certain times because some people over use it. Farmers are best at farming, not managing biodiversity and its delusional to think there isnt a conflict. What would be better is just beak uplands into richer soil areas maybe 1/3 where basically encourage investment for intensification with zero rules and zero subsidies provided you dont damage water systems and poorer areas (2/3 of land) were there is either rewilding or zero subsidy light grazing.

"Intensification with zero rules".. Deregulation: nothing could go wrong there, jaysus......

Thelonious Monk

https://twitter.com/seaspiracy/status/1389668261256630277

Thelonious Monk

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/06/new-zealand-tourism-changes-environment-milford-sound

I thought this was interesting, New Zealand are planning to have fewer international visitors to tackle the environmental damage inflicted by hoards of tourists in certain areas. I don't think it could be applied here as we don't really have wilderness to be damaged in the first place the way NZ does, but it's good to see progression like this instead of just thinking of dollars.

Thelonious Monk

Amazing what happens when you have a fence to keep sheep away from land

https://twitter.com/IrishRainforest/status/1390562684039536642

magicbastarder

the native woodland trust's podcast series had an interview with him about what he's doing in cork.

https://podcasts.apple.com/ie/podcast/broad-leaf-ep-8-rewilding-in-west-cork/id1534145455?i=1000513486242

Yellow_Fern

Capercaillie wrote: »

"Intensification with zero rules".. Deregulation: nothing could go wrong there, jaysus......

Deregulation is often a very good idea. Not in some cases like environment laws where impact is highly externalised. I would die on a hill for that principal and its a position where many rewilding and environmental advocates like George Monbiot would back me.