Driving someone's car which didn't have any tax or insurance

DeltaB

I was stopped by the Gardaí driving my friend's car tonight and although I was under the impression that she had an open insurance policy, it was only upon the Guards questioning her that I found out that she doesn't have any insurance, tax or NCT. The Garda told me to present my driving license and proof of insurance at my local Garda station in the next few days and they seized her car. Does he mean present proof of my own insurance, or proof that I was insured to drive her car (which I obviously don't have)? I do have a full driving license but I'm only 21 so I'm not sure if the claim that I thought she had open insurance actually has any weight.

Anyone have any thoughts on where I stand legally in all of this?

LookBehindYou

The garda is looking for proof that YOU are insured to drive that vehicle.
If you have insurance for your own car, it MAY cover driving other cars.
Start praying.

Eoin

Read your policy thoroughly. You might actually be covered to drive her car - under your policy, not yours.

challengemaster

Policy might cover him, but depends on the terms... ie. car must be in roadworthy condition (NCT) and have valid tax...

Merch

eoin wrote: »

Read your policy thoroughly. You might actually be covered to drive her car - under your policy, not yours.

Dont mean to scare the OP but usually if your own policy covers you to drive someone elses car, it requires that car to be insured anyway, so say they had comp but you weren't named on the policy, and you had comp on yours,but with a clause to allow you to drive other cars, depending on the policy you might be covered 3rd party. If you're 21 I doubt it.
Tax and NCT would also seem to me to be a requirement

Insurance companies might use any excuse to not have to pay, but as that vehicle wasnt even insured??
effectively it seems to me as if you were uninsured.
Lot of times I will not applaud the gardai, but in this case they took you off the road very legitimately and I cannot but credit them for doing their job, when I say that I am not having a go at you, just that it would be unfair for any insured driver to come across a car like that, if anything happened.

Personally, I cannot understand how you could not see the tax, nct and insurance disks were out??? I wouldn't move my own if it wasn't covered under all, as for someone elses, I'd be making doubly sure.
Dont know how your friend didnt mention it?? but you have the ultimate responsibility to check

If the no ins is accurate, better check if your own covers you, I doubt it, so if not you could be in the sh*t

thebullkf

more to this than meets the eye.

Merch

thebullkf wrote: »

more to this than meets the eye.

? huh

thebullkf

only one side of the story here.
i doubt its truth.

tbh if its all true, the OP deserves the book thrown at 'em.

no nct....

no tax.....

no freekin ins.??

if the op doesn;t know the ROTD then he doesn't deserve to have a licence imo.

feelites

u will be prosecuted for driving car without anything displayed
lets say 250 for each disc will give u charge of 750e
if u had no previous convictions u may be charged less even as low as 250e /if u have open insurance policy/

BUT if u do have open insurance and u will produce it to the garda station and talk nicely making some story about it u may be left without summon


anyway get the car out of the pound with the towtruck as i understand theres no insurance on the car

opinion guy

thebullkf wrote: »

only one side of the story here.
i doubt its truth.

tbh if its all true, the OP deserves the book thrown at 'em.

no nct....

no tax.....

no freekin ins.??

if the op doesn;t know the ROTD then he doesn't deserve to have a licence imo.

I'm sorry you clearly haven't read the thread. He is saying his "friend" led him to believe he would be insured - how is it his fault if she lied to him ? (so tip number one: find better friends).

OP I think you have a big problem here unless you can get your friend to give evidence that she misled you.

thebullkf wrote: »

more to this than meets the eye.

Huh? Did the car transform into a giant robot ?

mathepac

DeltaB wrote: »

... I was under the impression that she had an open insurance policy ... I found out that she doesn't have any insurance, tax or NCT. ...

As you were taking a car on the road it was your responsibility to ensure the car was fit to be driven legally by you. Please don't try the "Oh boo hoo but she lied to me" defence; you were driving, you did not discharge your responsibilities, you broke the law.

You ensure a car is "legal" by looking on the windscreen and checking that the tax, NCT and insurance discs are current and are for the vehicle you intend driving. If you don't know how to do this basic check or understand the importance of it, maybe you shouldn't be driving at all. The Guards / courts may help you here.

If you were under the impression that your friend had "an open insurance policy", then you should also have known that "open drive policies" if that's what you mean, are generally restricted to full licence holders between the ages of 25 and 70, so you would not have been covered on her policy anyway, even if she'd had one. I suspect you either knew she had no insurance or knew that an open drive policy would not cover you.

DeltaB wrote: »

... The Garda told me to present my driving license and proof of insurance at my local Garda station in the next few days and they seized her car. Does he mean present proof of my own insurance, or proof that I was insured to drive her car (which I obviously don't have)? I do have a full driving license but I'm only 21 so I'm not sure if the claim that I thought she had open insurance actually has any weight. ...

As the owner of the car had no insurance on the vehicle you need to check your policy for a "driving other cars" extension which may cover you as pointed out above.

DeltaB wrote: »

... Anyone have any thoughts on where I stand legally in all of this?

In the dunce's corner possibly facing prosecution for no tax and no NCT - fines and points on your licence I'm afraid. You behaved irresponsibly and you must now pay the price. If your own insurance has no "driving other cars" extension you may be facing time on public transport.

You may get the impression reading my post that I am unsympathetic to your plight and you're right; I am. Approximately 13% of my motor premiums every year goes to pay for the

• mess the stupid greedy eejits in a certain bank made of an insurance company many years ago
• gobsheens who drive around uninsured and have accidents

This time you and other road users were lucky you didn't have an accident.

x in the city

DeltaB wrote: »

I was stopped by the Gardaí driving my friend's car tonight and although I was under the impression that she had an open insurance policy, it was only upon the Guards questioning her that I found out that she doesn't have any insurance, tax or NCT. The Garda told me to present my driving license and proof of insurance at my local Garda station in the next few days and they seized her car. Does he mean present proof of my own insurance, or proof that I was insured to drive her car (which I obviously don't have)? I do have a full driving license but I'm only 21 so I'm not sure if the claim that I thought she had open insurance actually has any weight.

Anyone have any thoughts on where I stand legally in all of this?

other road users pay for inept actions the likes of yourself take you know.?

how hard is it to know whether a car is taxed or insured or nct'd...

Handyman1

While I do feel your pain at being caught without your paperwork in order I have to add that personally I know that driving without the necessary documents makes you a much safer driver,

I did the same in England for the best part of 15 years and never got anything worse than a parking ticket… bar one time when I was well drunk
They took the car off me and told me to wobble home “not the exact words that I remember them using”

People that knew me at the time said I was either a very good drinker or a very safe driver but I knew it was the latter… I knew I needed the car to make a living in my wheelin and dealin so I was just that little bit more vigilant than say a person with full insurance,

There was many a time that I foreseen an incident/accident and managed to avoid it well in advance for the simple reason that I didn’t have any cover “ie insurance”

I reckoned at the time it really does make you more aware of what’s going on around you so you drive with more care,

But now I’m back home and seen the errors of my way’s :rolleyes: I went and did the tests so I could do things right/ legally

but find because of this new law regarding “Small vans” I’m in the same boat as you if I get caught,
They law say the €700 I pay as a commercial insurance is void if I have private tax on the van and the insurance company wont insure the van as private “and it is a van not a 4x4”

So basically I’m going to end up in much the same boat as you,
While I know this is not helping you I hope it makes you feel like your not the only one that has a problem,

My poor boat is still in Kerry and I cant tow it back without breaking the law... or someone's neck

I can see 4 points on your licence and €150 for they're christmass kitty

Esel

^ Does that small van fit under the bridge where you live?

Merch

opinion guy wrote: »

I'm sorry you clearly haven't read the thread. He is saying his "friend" led him to believe he would be insured - how is it his fault if she lied to him ? (so tip number one: find better friends).
OP I think you have a big problem here unless you can get your friend to give evidence that she misled you.

I think maybe you have read it and the person you responded to read it also, but have interpretted it differantly

I interpret it like the other person, the OP said they assumed the person had ins,tax,nct, they didnt say their friend misled them, which is like they are saying the friend lied to them.
So the OP assumed ins,tax,nct were in place even though no discs/wrong dates??
I would have some sympathy for them if they asked was all in order and say they were told the tax was in the post and the ins disc was in the windscreen but it turned out it had been cancelled, then they would have been misled, but the OP said they assumed all was in order, it doesnt answer how they missed an nct,tax and ins disc out of date in the window or missing, it would be difficult to see even if the friend/car owner admitted they misled you, I'd say as the driver the onus is on you to find out to the best of your ability to confirm that a vehicle is road worthy,taxed and insured, if there is doubt then I'd assume nothing

To the OP, In some ways I am a little sympathetic if you are genuine, but then I think you are a bit niave but this may be a hard lesson for you, understandably people might view you with a certain annoyance as they (me also) pay a premium to cover people that dont bother, perhaps a stint off the road might help, take the lesson come back driving after that break and consider other road users/people before accepting anything like that without questioning it.

corktina

As far as i know open insurance usally applies to over 25 YOs...i'd say you wont wriggle out of it...:(

Jo King

O/P to have any chance of getting out of this you need a good solicitor who is knowledgeable in Road traffic law.

-Corkie-

corktina wrote: »

As far as i know open insurance usally applies to over 25 YOs...i'd say you wont wriggle out of it...:(

Your correct there. Wouldnt her car need to be insured for him to be covered. Also the guard can do him for driving the car with no tax and having no nct which attracts 5 points..

Handyman1

esel wrote: »

^ Does that small van fit under the bridge where you live?

It does but my wheels keep getting stuck between the railway tracks :rolleyes:

OP its not the end of the world dude.. you did wrong and now you have to face the MAN,

I believe everything happens for a reason If i were in your shoe's now i would be thinking what if i hadnt been caught and had an accident involving another person just around the corner,

I would just take it in my stride and say lesson learnt... but if you do get a ban "which i doubt" than i have a little scrambler for sale.. they will never catch you on this little baby

Max Power1

is a troll's skin green font aswell

-Corkie-

Max Power1 wrote: »

is a troll's skin green font aswell

Maybe he thinks its Paddys day!!:D:D

slimjimmc

Handyman1 wrote: »

While I do feel your pain at being caught without your paperwork in order I have to add that personally I know that driving without the necessary documents makes you a much safer driver,

I did the same in England for the best part of 15 years and never got anything worse than a parking ticket… bar one time when I was well drunk
They took the car off me and told me to wobble home “not the exact words that I remember them using”

People that knew me at the time said I was either a very good drinker or a very safe driver but I knew it was the latter… I knew I needed the car to make a living in my wheelin and dealin so I was just that little bit more vigilant than say a person with full insurance,

There was many a time that I foreseen an incident/accident and managed to avoid it well in advance for the simple reason that I didn’t have any cover “ie insurance”

I reckoned at the time it really does make you more aware of what’s going on around you so you drive with more care,

But now I’m back home and seen the errors of my way’s :rolleyes: I went and did the tests so I could do things right/ legally

but find because of this new law regarding “Small vans” I’m in the same boat as you if I get caught,
They law say the €700 I pay as a commercial insurance is void if I have private tax on the van and the insurance company wont insure the van as private “and it is a van not a 4x4”

Which law is this? In Ireland validity of motor insurance is not dependent on motor tax.

Handyman1 wrote: »

So basically I’m going to end up in much the same boat as you,
While I know this is not helping you I hope it makes you feel like your not the only one that has a problem,

My poor boat is still in Kerry and I cant tow it back without breaking the law... or someone's neck

I can see 4 points on your licence and €150 for they're christmass kitty

I doubt it'll be that gentle. It's a mandatory court appearance and a minimum 1 year disqualification is quite normal. You'd need a pretty good sob story to avoid the ban.
No insurance carries 5 penalty points on conviction if the ban is not applied.

DeltaB

By the way I'm not looking for sympathy or even trying to absolve myself of any wrongdoing here, just trying to suss out what I'm in for.

slimjimmc wrote: »

I doubt it'll be that gentle. It's a mandatory court appearance and a minimum 1 year disqualification is quite normal. You'd need a pretty good sob story to avoid the ban.
No insurance carries 5 penalty points on conviction if the ban is not applied.

As well as a fine do you reckon?

Vertakill

mathepac wrote: »

As you were taking a car on the road it was your responsibility to ensure the car was fit to be driven legally by you. Please don't try the "Oh boo hoo but she lied to me" defence; you were driving, you did not discharge your responsibilities, you broke the law.

You ensure a car is "legal" by looking on the windscreen and checking that the tax, NCT and insurance discs are current and are for the vehicle you intend driving. If you don't know how to do this basic check or understand the importance of it, maybe you shouldn't be driving at all. The Guards / courts may help you here.

If you were under the impression that your friend had "an open insurance policy", then you should also have known that "open drive policies" if that's what you mean, are generally restricted to full licence holders between the ages of 25 and 70, so you would not have been covered on her policy anyway, even if she'd had one. I suspect you either knew she had no insurance or knew that an open drive policy would not cover you.

As the owner of the car had no insurance on the vehicle you need to check your policy for a "driving other cars" extension which may cover you as pointed out above.

In the dunce's corner possibly facing prosecution for no tax and no NCT - fines and points on your licence I'm afraid. You behaved irresponsibly and you must now pay the price. If your own insurance has no "driving other cars" extension you may be facing time on public transport.

You may get the impression reading my post that I am unsympathetic to your plight and you're right; I am. Approximately 13% of my motor premiums every year goes to pay for the

• mess the stupid greedy eejits in a certain bank made of an insurance company many years ago
• gobsheens who drive around uninsured and have accidents

This time you and other road users were lucky you didn't have an accident.

corktina wrote: »

As far as i know open insurance usally applies to over 25 YOs...i'd say you wont wriggle out of it...:(

Quinn Direct's policies have "Open Drive" for people over 18 with a full license.
I think they're one of the only ones that have this for that age group though.

"Driving Other Cars" is the strict one, where it's nearly always 25+ for all companies.

I'm pretty sure "Driving Other Cars" only covers the driver when the car's owner has an active insurance policy.

I'm also pretty certain the only thing that could possibly have covered the OP is "Third Party Extension" which would give him Third Party cover even if the car had no active insurance policy. But it has to have had a valid Tax/NCT cert, which the car didn't.

Or... if the OP had rang up his insurance company and swapped over his insurance to her car... which we know he didn't.
But that's maybe why the Gardai are doing what they're doing rather than just taking the car off them and crushing it - coz it's clear neither of them have a clue about the consequences of what could have happened.

The Garda did you both a huge favour by pulling you over.


But to be honest, the OP's story about how he didn't realise all of this doesn't really seem all that likely to me.
I could tell you right now about whether or not my friends have a valid tax/nct/insurance cert on their cars right now.

I find it very hard to believe that someone could hop into a car and start driving and be completely oblivious to whether or not they were covered by insurance.... especially as a 21 year old when you get sweet fk all perks like the ones listed above.


Hope you get absolutely screwed though OP, you're the type of people that are fcking up my insurance premiums as I'm in the same demographic as you.

GalwayKiefer

esel wrote: »

^ Does that small van fit under the bridge where you live?

Funniest post I've read recently.

kielmanator

just in response to some posters,

I'm 20 (since August), and I have fully comp with Axa. They allow me to drive anyones car with 3rd party cover. In 2 more years it's going to comprehensive extension. That person does NOT need to be insured on that car.

However, OP, what you did was ridiculous. I'm not attacking you personally, but actions speak louder than words! You're jacking up premiums left right and centre, and giving under 25 males a bad name!

thebullkf

opinion guy wrote: »

I'm sorry you clearly haven't read the thread. He is saying his "friend" led him to believe he would be insured - how is it his fault if she lied to him ? (so tip number one: find better friends).

OP I think you have a big problem here unless you can get your friend to give evidence that she misled you.



Huh? Did the car transform into a giant robot ?

were you drunk replying to this??

i did read the OP.

see the post above mine:rolleyes:





*well said Merch.*

mathepac

Vertakill wrote: »

Quinn Direct's policies have "Open Drive" for people over 18 with a full license.
I think they're one of the only ones that have this for that age group though. ...

Not according to their website - http://www.quinn-direct.com/car-insurance/policy-summary.html Based on their linked policy booklet and my experiences with them, this is only available as an option which would be consistent with most other companies.

Vertakill wrote: »

... "Driving Other Cars" is the strict one, where it's nearly always 25+ for all companies. ...

Incorrect. Just using Quinn as an example, their site states that this extension "Applies to most policies" and again that would be consistent with most other companies.

Vertakill wrote: »

... I'm pretty sure "Driving Other Cars" only covers the driver when the car's owner has an active insurance policy ...

Incorrect. Again using Quinn as an example, their policy booklet specifically states that their "Driving Other Cars" extension only applies if (among other all other conditions) there is no other insurance on the car in question.

"Driving other cars
If your certificate of insurance says so, we will also cover
you, the policyholder, for your liability to other people while
you are driving any other private motor car which you do
not own or have not hired or leased, as long as:
1 the vehicle is not owned by your employer or hired to them
under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;
2 you currently hold a full European Union (EU) licence;
3 the use of the vehicle is covered in the certificate of
insurance;
4 cover is not provided by any other insurance;
5 you have the owner’s permission to drive the vehicle;
6 the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition; and
7 you still have your vehicle and it has not been damaged
beyond cost-effective repair."

Vertakill wrote: »

... I'm also pretty certain the only thing that could possibly have covered the OP is "Third Party Extension" which would give him Third Party cover even if the car had no active insurance policy. But it has to have had a valid Tax/NCT cert, which the car didn't. ...

I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It seems that you may have your wires crossed about terminology and options / extensions.

slimjimmc

DeltaB wrote: »

By the way I'm not looking for sympathy or even trying to absolve myself of any wrongdoing here, just trying to suss out what I'm in for.



As well as a fine do you reckon?

Hard to say, it depends on how the judge looks upon the situation but with no insurance, no tax and no NCT I'd say it'd be hard to avoid a hefty fine of some sort, though I doubt it would be anywhere near the €2500 max for no insurance (assuming conviction). No point in speculation until you get proper legal opinion.

dunsandin

Oh Well, back around to Loose Lizzies for me then so.

Sounds like to me that you are in the doo-doo though - on sites when it comes to tea-time, every lad offers me their vehicle to nip down the shops (mines usually tied up cos of the gear on it), and since this depression struck, I politely decline, you just dont know who is fiddling the Tax/Nct/doe/insurance/tyres these days to save on costs. You are safer sticking to driving your own bus, at least then you have only yourself to blame if somthings not right.
You do win this months "golden spanner for acts detrimental to self" though.

guil

mathepac wrote: »

Not according to their website - http://www.quinn-direct.com/car-insurance/policy-summary.html Based on their linked policy booklet and my experiences with them, this is only available as an option which would be consistent with most other companies.
Incorrect. Just using Quinn as an example, their site states that this extension "Applies to most policies" and again that would be consistent with most other companies.
Incorrect. Again using Quinn as an example, their policy booklet specifically states that their "Driving Other Cars" extension only applies if (among other all other conditions) there is no other insurance on the car in question.

"Driving other cars
If your certificate of insurance says so, we will also cover
you, the policyholder, for your liability to other people while
you are driving any other private motor car which you do
not own or have not hired or leased, as long as:
1 the vehicle is not owned by your employer or hired to them
under a hire-purchase or lease agreement;
2 you currently hold a full European Union (EU) licence;
3 the use of the vehicle is covered in the certificate of
insurance;
4 cover is not provided by any other insurance;
5 you have the owner’s permission to drive the vehicle;
6 the vehicle is in a roadworthy condition; and
7 you still have your vehicle and it has not been damaged
beyond cost-effective repair."
I've never heard of this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It seems that you may have your wires crossed about terminology and options / extensions.

i'm pretty sure number 4 means that no other company is insuring you on the other car, i used the third party extension for years

also a lot of people are mixing up open drive and third party extension
open drive on ur policy allows anyone over 25 and under 65 with a full licence to drive your car
third party extension allows you to drive any other private vehicle that you or a spouse dont own, doesnt matter if someone else has it insured cos it wouldnt cover you anyway