How real is ketosis?

brianthebard

Rather than derail a different thread I thought I'd start a new one on what's probably an old topic. Basically how real is this ketosis stuff? It always seemed the most far fetched element of a low carb diet plan/philosophy. Plus there are several varieties of low carbing and they don't appear to have a consensus on how long it takes to get into ketosis, how long you need to stay there, etc. In addition although some people lose a good bit of weight in the induction phase, its the weeks and months after induction where the majority of weight is lost, after you start uping the carbs in most cases (although if you were following the anabolic diet I believe it involves 5 very low carb days and a cheat weekend) and eventually move out of ketosis.
To me low carb makes sense and appears to work without the mysterious ketones so is it really necessary, does it exist, how much does it matter and should we care?

Sapsorrow

Well it definately exists, I spent long enough learning the damn pathway off to know that much! :pac: I think you can still get a lot of the weightloss of a low carb diet without being in ketosis dur to stabilisation of insulin levels etc, but I'd say for people who generally find it harder to shift the weight or are older, less carb tolerant etc then it probably does help to accelerate the loss. It's just a fancy way of describing how your body burns it's fat reserves rather than carbs in the blood or glycogen in the liver or muscle, it's a starvation survival strategy so that the brain has a usable form of energy (ketones) to get by on as it can't use fat like other bodily cells. So when your carbs have all run out, you start eating into your fat reserves to make ketone bodies which are then consumed as energy, so ya it makes sense from a weightloss perspective to the best of my knowledge anyway. Temple should know anyway

brianthebard

That helps a lot, thanks, although it also suggests that ketosis is probably not necessary on a low carb diet once a calorie deficit is created?

Sapsorrow

brianthebard wrote: »

That helps a lot, thanks, although it also suggests that ketosis is probably not necessary on a low carb diet once a calorie deficit is created?

No, I wouldn't imagine so for the majority of people, although maybe when people hit a plateau on kcal cutting diets it would help, even if it's only to get the right hormones working in the right ways to boost the loss. Honestly, in terms of weight loss it's not an area of biochem I know much about. We studied it from the perspective of starvation more than anything so I'd say someone else should be able to help more. From a practical perspective and from my own experience with lowish carb living it is a lot easier to cut your kcals without thinking about it on a high fat/protein diet so that might be responsible for a lot of peoples successs. But the ketosis does result from (and result in) a lot of important hormonal changes that happen when the body senses it's carb stores have run out that aid weightloss so it can only help! I kind of think of it as wiping the slate clean and reporgramming your hormones to your advantage.

brianthebard

Thanks for the explanations. Wasn't aware of the hormonal aspect of it that's useful to know.

EileenG

It's definitely real, and it's a normal physiological response to a lot of exercise or a diet low in carbs. It's unusual now, because modern food is so carb heavy, but our hunter-gatherer ancestors must have spent a significant amount of time in ketosis.

Interestingly, pregnant women are often in ketosis as well (I was, even as a high carbing vegetarian). And breastfed babies are in ketosis for the first six months of their life, if they are exclusively breastfed, as per WHO recommendations.

A significant number of epileptic children, as well as some adults, respond to a keto diet, and can reduce or eliminate seizures without medication, through diet alone.

I find it interesting that when I'm in ketosis, I tend to read textbooks and can finish crossword puzzles, while on a higher carb diet, I tend to read novels.

However, ketosis makes it easier to stick to the lower calories required to lose weight, but is no guarantee of weight loss. If you eat above maintenance, even if you are in ketosis, you will put on weight. It just requires a lot more effort to eat that number of calories in ketosis.

brianthebard

Lol yeah eating above maintenance while in ketosis would be some feat. Interesting that breast milk is low carb, I would have thought it had a similar macro breakdown to cow or goats milk. Thanks for the info Eileen.

EileenG

They try, but they still haven't managed it.

Which is why the formula companies to go great lengths to make breastfeeding sound like too much hardship for any rational woman. You've got the "SMA panel of breastfeeding experts" who say that of course breast is best, but if you are breastfeeding, you shouldn't drink coffee. Or wine. Or eat sushi. Or cabbage. Or do exercise. Or.. or...or... Until any sane woman says "Sod this, I'm bottling the baby."

Sorry, sore subject with me. Can you tell?

brianthebard

lol. Everyone knows that the experts of a company who are trying to promote that companies products provide unbias, useful information.

SteelyDanJalapeno

How do you know if your in Ketosis?

EileenG

The usual way is to test your urine with ketostix (you can buy a tub of 50 for about €8 in any chemist) and see if it turns pink.

If you do endurance sports, and you hit the wall, that's the switchover to using fat for fuel which happens as you enter ketosis.

If you are low carbing, then a day spent peeing like a race horse, followed by an overnight drop in weight is the famous water weight disappearing as you enter ketosis.

People in ketosis may experience fruity smelling breath, or stronger smelling urine, or more energy, or less hunger, or easier concentration or a metallic taste in the mouth. Or not.

brianthebard

Actually side question I always mean to ask, is the initial loss of water weight always a given when loosing weight? I always figured it was because people generally start to drink more water when they start a diet. I already drink between 3 and 6 litres a day so I don't see why I would still drop water weight? Obviously it isn't that important I'm just curious.

EileenG

Yes, you always lose water when you go into ketosis. The carbs you eat are converted to glycogen, which is a fancy word for sugar solution. If you then stop eating carbs, the sugar in that solution are used for energy, and the water that holds it in solution is unnecessary and is disposed off, via extra urine.

Typically you can expect to lose 2-4lb of water in the first week of a low carb diet. Very muscular guys can lose up to 10lb.

If you are in ketosis, and then eat a lot of carbs, your mucles and liver will refill their glycogen supplies, and will grab all the water you drink to put the carbs into a sugar solution. So it's quite common for someone to gain a few pounds after one high carb meal. It's not fat, it's extra water.

Fitness models will often spend a couple of weeks in ketosis, to deplete muscle glycogen, then do a carb-up just before a photo shoot, so their muscles will be swollen with glycogen and all pretty for the camera.

brianthebard

That makes sense now thanks for that.

Kimia

EileenG wrote: »

Yes, you always lose water when you go into ketosis. The carbs you eat are converted to glycogen, which is a fancy word for sugar solution. If you then stop eating carbs, the sugar in that solution are used for energy, and the water that holds it in solution is unnecessary and is disposed off, via extra urine.

Typically you can expect to lose 2-4lb of water in the first week of a low carb diet. Very muscular guys can lose up to 10lb.

If you are in ketosis, and then eat a lot of carbs, your mucles and liver will refill their glycogen supplies, and will grab all the water you drink to put the carbs into a sugar solution. So it's quite common for someone to gain a few pounds after one high carb meal. It's not fat, it's extra water.

Fitness models will often spend a couple of weeks in ketosis, to deplete muscle glycogen, then do a carb-up just before a photo shoot, so their muscles will be swollen with glycogen and all pretty for the camera.

Sorry to drag up an old thread but I have just experienced the bold part. I went out for a meal over the weekend, and usually I eat moderately low carb (approx 40-70g of carbs a day). Well this particular meal was so delicious (they had fresh baked bread!!!!) I had to have a few pieces. So I did. And realised 2 days later that I have put on 3 pounds.

Will this go after a few days of low carbing?

brianthebard

I think I can answer that one; it will go away. My weight could fluctuate up to a stone I think depending on if I weighed myself dehydrated and with an empty stomach in the morning or well hydrated and bloated with carbs and such in the evening.

Kimia

Sigh. Excellent proof then that carbs + me = not a happy body. It really lends credence to the saying 'you are what you eat' eh!

EileenG

Yes. As soon as you are back in ketosis, the extra water weight will disappear. I'm assuming you ate a few more carb foods than just bread? Otherwise you'd be back pretty quickly.

EileenG

brianthebard wrote: »

I think I can answer that one; it will go away. My weight could fluctuate up to a stone I think depending on if I weighed myself dehydrated and with an empty stomach in the morning or well hydrated and bloated with carbs and such in the evening.

Just imagine if you were factoring in PMS as well....

brianthebard

Kimia wrote: »

Sigh. Excellent proof then that carbs + me = not a happy body. It really lends credence to the saying 'you are what you eat' eh!

well not exactly since you've only put on water and glycogen apparently, its not meaningful weight gain.

LeahK

I am starting low carb today and have joined fitday. How many grams of carbs should I be eating to go into ketosis? some websites say 40-50 and some say less than 30? I am 5'8, female, appx 147lbs. Do cardio exercise 2-4 times a week.

EileenG

This is "how long is a piece of string?" In general, if you are under 100g a day, ketosis is possible. In fact, it's possible on much higher if you exercise intensely. After that, it depends on lifestyle, age, gender and overall health. If you eat under 30g of carbs a day, it's impossible to avoid ketosis. Most non-athletes find that somewhere around 40-50g of carbs a day is the tipping point.

Bodybuilders often do a keto diet with a regular high carb refeed. So they will aim for 20g of carbs a day on the keto days, to get back to ketosis as quickly as possible after the carb-up.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Hey, can anyone tell me where i can buy some Ketostix? thanks.

EileenG

Any chemist. You have to ask for them at the pharmacy counter, but you don't need a presciption. Diabetics use them all the time. They cost about €8 for a tub of 50.

Mellor

Horgan wrote: »

How do you know if your in Ketosis?

EileenG wrote: »

The usual way is to test your urine with ketostix (you can buy a tub of 50 for about €8 in any chemist) and see if it turns pink.

Horgan wrote: »

Hey, can anyone tell me where i can buy some Ketostix? thanks.

EileenG wrote: »

Any chemist. ... They cost about €8 for a tub of 50.

The only palce they were mentioned also said were to get them ???


Eileen, thinking of going towards this soon. Could even be in it already, i tend to get pretty low carb. Jusy on the "fruity" breath. Is it bad breath, ie would others notice it. As I'd probably be put off going keto if it was and stick with current diet.

EileenG

At the start, you may get fruity breath. It's not bad, nothing like garlic breath or curry breath, and it doesn't last long.

SteelyDanJalapeno

Tried two pharmacy's today, 1 didnt know what i was on bout, the other didnt have them, and boots wanted 67 euro for a 100 pack! eek

brianthebard

http://www.valuemed.co.uk/acatalog/Ketone_Tests.html

can't find them on the boots website but that's them.

Tevez101

Mellor wrote: »

Eileen, thinking of going towards this soon. Could even be in it already, i tend to get pretty low carb. Jusy on the "fruity" breath. Is it bad breath, ie would others notice it. As I'd probably be put off going keto if it was and stick with current diet.

Mellor, I am also considering going low carb, but is it true you can't build muscle while in ketosis?

EileenG

Not true. There was one interesting study where they took a bunch of trained athletes, fed half of them their normal diet, and the other half ate keto. All were instructed to eat enough to maintain their weight, and to train as normal. At the end of three months, the control group had the exact same body composition as when they started, the keto group had lost 1kg of fat and gained 1kg of muscle.

However, bodybuilders will combine a very low carb diet with planned high-carb refeeds to maximize muscle growth. CKD (cyclical ketogenic diet) is normally six days a week of heavy lifting while eating low carb at a deficit, and then one day of high carb, low fat above maintenance.

Mellor

EileenG wrote: »

then one day of high carb, low fat above maintenance.

ie going on the Beer :D:D:D:D

EileenG

Only if you really hate yourself. Booze hits you quicker on keto diets, and affect you worse. If you don't drink a pint of water for every pint of beer, you'll have the hangover from hell the next day.

BB-ers tend to eat a lot of oatmeal, brown rice, sweet potato and skim milk on carb-up.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Thanks EileenG for your informative posts.

I started my 'lifestyle change' last monday, and I experienced nearly all the signs/symptoms you described in posts 11 and 13 by day 4.
I lost 2.6 kg by day 4, which I'm presuming is mostly water weight. On day 10 I was down 3.3kgs.
My goal is to lose about 10kg in less than 2 months. I'm training 5 to 6 days a week. I'm being very strict on my diet.
Am I being too ambitious or is it a realistic goal?

Many Thanks, BN

Torakx

Also a question i have is how long can you stick to this type of diet?
Can i be in ketosis from age 30 to 50 for example?
Or better to go on and off it every few months or weeks?

columok

Torakx wrote: »

Also a question i have is how long can you stick to this type of diet?
Can i be in ketosis from age 30 to 50 for example?
Or better to go on and off it every few months or weeks?

Your diet should serve your quality of life. If ketosis is necessary for healthy living then so be it (ie. cause of epilepsy, cancer etc.).

Otherwise having an occasional créme bruleé or icecream again is full of win as far as I can see. It depends on your goals and needs from month to month and year to year.

EileenG

There's no health reason to go off a keto diet after a specific length of time, but most people like to vary it or take breaks from time to time. Don't forget, a diet doesn't have to be keto to be beneficial, a good low-to-moderate carb diet will have many of the same benefits, it's not Keto or high carb. You find the diet you can live with. Just base it on real food, not junk.

Amtmann

Out of curiosity, when people speak of a diet low enough in carbs to induce ketosis, how low are they talking about?

EileenG

Varies from person to person. The feeling is that under 100g of carbs a day, ketosis is possible, but generally you need to go under 50g. Many people stay under 30g if it's important to be in ketosis. Having said that, I know cyclists who can be in ketosis on over 150g of carbs, and I was frequently in ketosis when I was pregnant, even though I was a high carbing vegetarian.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

I've a quick question.

I've been in ketosis for two weeks, but suddenly this week I've been testing negative for the past number of days (incl. this morning). My diet hasn't changed and my portions are pretty much the same as normal.
The only real difference is I've up'd my training from 5 to 6 days a week.

I'm confused! Any advice is welcome! Thanks.

rocky

ketostix are not supremely reliable when determining if you're in ketosis or not. There may also be differences between batches of ketostix (if that's what you use to test).

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Yep, using the ketostix. They're all from the one pack and I've been very careful about opening them in case they 'go off'.

rocky wrote: »

ketostix are not supremely reliable when determining if you're in ketosis or not. There may also be differences between batches of ketostix (if that's what you use to test).

El_Dangeroso

Ketostix only test if you're peeing out ketones, ie, excess ketones. If you're active then you're using them all for energy.

I think ketostix can be a useful tool to begin with but they are not a sign of weightloss, you can stall or even gain weight when ketostix show pink.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Thanks for that. I presumed I was using up any excess ketones alright.
I'm guessing if I stop training for say 2 or 3 days, I'd test positive again.

The scales shows I'm losing weight, and that's what matters.

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Ketostix only test if you're peeing out ketones, ie, excess ketones. If you're active then you're using them all for energy.

I think ketostix can be a useful tool to begin with but they are not a sign of weightloss, you can stall or even gain weight when ketostix show pink.

EileenG

El_Dangeroso wrote: »

Ketostix only test if you're peeing out ketones, ie, excess ketones. If you're active then you're using them all for energy.

I think ketostix can be a useful tool to begin with but they are not a sign of weightloss, you can stall or even gain weight when ketostix show pink.

What she said.

Ketostix can only measure ketones in your urine over a certain concentration. If you are using all your ketones for energy (which you'd expect if you are eating fewer calories than you burn) OR if your urine is very dilute, then you won't get a reading.

You might get a faint trace of pink after a tough workout, especially if you forget to fill your water bottle.