Global Hunger, Will the fat cat's pay the proposed tax?

uprising2

Just reading an RTE news article, Trocaire Director Justin Kilcullen has called for a 0.05% tax on large transfers, that would generate 400bn per year to fight poverty, we all know this will not be.
This tax will never be applied, simply because the one who own's tax doesn't need to pay it.

I'll quote the article:

Trócaire wants financial institutions taxed.
'At the outset the Millennium Development Goals recognised that aid alone would not suffice to achieve the goals,' Mr Kilcullen said in a statement.
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'This tax would not cost ordinary citizens a penny, but would be applied to big banks that move large amounts of currency around on money markets.
'Experts predict that a tiny tax of just 0.05% would generate over $400 billion each year - three times the current total aid levels,' he said.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0918/trocaire.html

So if not, why not?, the simple truth is that the money men want/need to keep poverty in place, control it, expoit it, these kunt's, monsanto being one of them just LOVE famine, starving people, makes easy work of robbing the minerals from under their noses with the help of a rich warlord.

So the conspiracy is that famine is a convienience for the banker's.

EDIT:
I added a few pics to help convey the message, can't edit title so maybe somebody can edit it.

me_right_one

Thats utter bollox. See how we're struggling in this country from trying to squeeze 30bn from the taxpayer? The entire tax take for the country last year was 20bn odd. You're saying that by applying a new tax, we can somehow raise 400bn magically? 20 times more than Ireland earned in tax last year? I cant afford to pay 20 times more tax. It would be US facing a SECOND famine if this were to be introduced. Famines happen, thats just a ****ty fact of life. So does disease, natural disaster, murder etc. There is no big orchestrated effort to try and starve people to death.

Torakx

I dont think he mentioned that we were going to have to pay it.I think its aimed at the big banks and corps moving massive amounts of moeny around internationally.
The charities apparently want a peice of the cake.I had thought they already got the crumbs and were happy with this profit ^^

uprising2

me_right_one wrote: »

Thats utter bollox. See how we're struggling in this country from trying to squeeze 30bn from the taxpayer? The entire tax take for the country last year was 20bn odd. You're saying that by applying a new tax, we can somehow raise 400bn magically? 20 times more than Ireland earned in tax last year? I cant afford to pay 20 times more tax. It would be US facing a SECOND famine if this were to be introduced. Famines happen, thats just a ****ty fact of life. So does disease, natural disaster, murder etc. There is no big orchestrated effort to try and starve people to death.

Your stuck in a bubble trying to look out, blah, blah.

I'm saying that these institutions will not pay the proposed tax, the figure I gave was from RTE and in the link provided, so I'm not saying they'll pull money from anywhere.
The money your talking about is money from us to the banks via govt, the money he is talking about is money from banks as a tax to fight poverty, two very different transactions, like lodgement and withdrawl.

me_right_one

But there's only so much money in the pot. Who it comes from, where it goes etc. is irrelevant. The fact is there isnt enough. Therefore, unfortunately, somebody is going to suffer. There will always be fatcats who were lucky enough in life to accumilate large amounts, and there will always be starving people who were unlucky enough to be the victims of circumstance. Either way, even if you forced fatcats to distribute their wealth to the most needy, there would still be people dying if starvation. 1+1 does not equal 3. To suggest though, that there is a conspiracy here, is just ridiculous. Harrowing pics there Uprising2. Imagine that was happening here only 4 generations ago.

gizmo

0.05%? Why not 0.5%? Hell, why not 1%? Surely they can afford it? etc...

You see where this is going?

As for the rich wanting to keep poverty in place, between the aid budgets of most Western nations and the "lost" revenue from the lack of taxation on these poor people, it's not in "their" best interests to perpetuate the current situation in the slightest.

uprising2

Haha, what's your problem?, I don't think you've got your head quite around the concept yet, it's global, a little tax to fight poverty paid by the Bank's, not the people, a fair tax if such thing exists.

Had this tax been around 4 generations ago I'd hope it would have been used to fight the Irish famine, and you seem to forget what part britain played in that.
Kinda proves the conspiracy.

EDIT:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)

Nehaxak

Well now, the plain simple fact that all the large well known charities in Ireland, when under pressure from the recession when it started to bite hard, cut back on overseas programmes, cut back on overseas based staff and even in some cases pulled out of some countries altogether - rather than make significant cuts to wages and administration costs in their home country of Ireland (all they did make were mostly peace-meal wages cuts to staff on the lower end of the scale) - would immediately raise questions as to the true motives for asking for this tax in the first place.

Most if not all of the larger well established charities/NGO's in Ireland these days are run as a business and there are too many Irish based staff content to take their high wages from what they see as just another 9 to 5 job.
Most of their higher management are on over 100k+ per year, Middle management on between 60k and 90k+ and their CEO's range in wage from 120k to over 200k and none of them, none of them, are deserving of such a high wage in a "charity". Don't even get me started on what they pay consultants !

Famines, all famines, can be averted. I know, I've worked in a few of them and all of them I experienced first hand could've been averted with proper government, proper governance and some proper planning to care for the people of the country(s) effected in the first place.

Who manages the "fund" of monies from the tax ?
Who determines as and to what NGO, programme or even country the money should be given ?
To me, the IMF are the only ones capable or competent enough of handling this fund if ever this tax/levy were imposed on banks. I'd only back it's implementation if that were the case.

gizmo

I have no problem, I simply don't agree with what you're suggesting. On top of this, given the criticism both the IMF and World Bank gets for their current relief efforts what makes you think this plan would work?

Nehaxak

gizmo wrote: »

I have no problem, I simply don't agree with what you're suggesting. On top of this, given the criticism both the IMF and World Bank gets for their current relief efforts what makes you think this plan would work?

I'm not saying it would work but it has a better chance of working if the fund were managed by the IMF rather than NGO's, one only has to look at the debacle of the IRC in Ireland recently to see how they deal with funds left "resting in accounts".

gizmo

Nehaxak wrote: »

I'm not saying it would work but it has a better chance of working if the fund were managed by the IMF rather than NGO's, one only has to look at the debacle of the IRC in Ireland recently to see how they deal with funds left "resting in accounts".

Sorry Nehaxak, that reply was meant for uprising. But you're right, it could only work if it was managed by the IMF or World Bank but as I said, since these two organizations are already criticized for their efforts, why would someone suggest they manage these funds too?

me_right_one

uprising2 wrote: »

Haha, what's your problem?, I don't think you've got your head quite around the concept yet, it's global, a little tax to fight poverty paid by the Bank's, not the people, a fair tax if such thing exists.

Had this tax been around 4 generations ago I'd hope it would have been used to fight the Irish famine, and you seem to forget what part britain played in that.
Kinda proves the conspiracy.[URL="http://"][/URL]

With all respect Uprising2, I think its YOU who hasnt your head around it. There are too many mouths to feed on this rock called earth. There will NEVER be enough to go around. The banks? Who owns the banks? the people, thats who! Yes, the people own the banks. The savers, me, you, average people all over the world who pool our savings into a building for safekeeping. Sure there are some better off than others, but if you filter any amount of money out of the international coffers, it will trickle down to the people. Yes, THE PEOPLE!

I have no problem donating what I can afford to help those less fortunate than me, and I would hope if I ever find myself starving somebody will be charitable to me, but I'm fcuked if I'd let somebody siphon what I CANNOT afford to give, without my knowlegde or permission, for ANY reason. I already give what I can and have nothing to apologise about. As for the famine here, indeed such a tax would have been welcome, but it didnt happen then for the same reasons it wont happen now. Resources are finite. Unfortunately there's nothing anyone can do about that. There was no conspiracy back then, and there isnt one now.

Nehaxak

No you're right too Gizmo, but the IMF are the only ones I can think of with enough financial competence, professionalism and ability to handle such a large fund of money for distribution onwards.

There's also one thing that should be stated here, so others are aware - if a donation is given to a charity/NGO with no specific clause as and to what and where that money should be used - it goes into a general fund for the Charity/NGO to use as they see fit themselves.
If however the monies donated have specific clauses or intentions attached (let's say you donate 1 million for a famine in Ethiopia) then that money, all of it, every single penny/cent of it, must be used for relief efforts in that country only.

I am loath to think that a fund of the size that this tax/levy could generate could be just given to NGO's to do with as they please and as they determine themselves.
That is why I would suggest a group like the IMF properly manage the fund and release funds specifically as determined for each country requirement and that every penny/cent spent is audited and accounted for.

PS., This thread is probably more suited to Politics rather than CT, there's no real conspiracy here at all but a decent debate to be had for sure.

mrblack

All the years of giving aid and what has been achieved in Africa bar a lot of self satisfied NGO's who in many cases are now just fat cats themselves with their unjustifiably large pay packets. Trade not aid raises peoples standard of living. Hunger is a weapon used by the leaders in many african states to perpetuate their corrupt regimes by starving their enemies and transferring the wealth to their supporters. Ethiopia & Zimbabwe being the chief culprits here I believe. South Korea, China, Thailand, Phillipines were all on a par with african countries in the 1950's but better governments and free trade has lifted their levels up considerably closer to the Wests. How much aid ends up in middlemens pockets rather than the needy-A lot of it I heard in a recent report on Pakistan.

I would prefer effective regulation of Banks and Bank fat cats and not just lazy transaction taxes on them which would end up ultimately being paid for by higher bank charges & interest rates on us consumers. Without international money markets our stupid Banks would be in liquidation now by the way. Free trade rather than aid is what the africaners want themselves-they don't want to be beggars forever I am sure. If Chinese can make goods which westerners want then so could Africans if they were allowed to by trade rules and their government regimes. MNC's and local business would thrive in Africa and boost trade considerably if they felt the political climate and laws would be fairly enforced and they could profit at the same time. Nigeria has incredible natural resources and would be a powerhouse economy if it was governed well-Instead its a basket case with systemic corruption and widespread absolute poverty and malnutrition. Contrast it with South Africa which despite its racial issues is economically successful due to free trade and investmentand.

As for the fat cat bankers I would like their personal assets to be confiscated to repay shreholders and the state for being negligently reckless in executing their roles as directors. Personally I doublt if they committed crimes worthy of prison because being greedy and shortsighted is not yet a crime in this country-but it is grounds to sue directors for breach of their fiduciary to shareholders I think. It has amazed me that so far Sheehy, Goggin, Fingers and co have not been chased by the shareholders into court and faced civil suit for failure in their fiduciary duty to shareholders.



Mrblack

uprising2

Why not everybody think in a more simplistic way, if you were given $400bn a year to distribute to worthy causes and kept nothing for yourself, could you do it?.

This planet is more than capable of feeding itself, despite rumours that it is not, it's just a management issue.

Economy's are controlled and manipulated, the system is corrupt to the core, the World Bank is a con, simply put the power's that be "need" poverty.
Money does not vanish into thin air unless it never existed to begin with, and it only has the value that they apply to it at any given time, it's a big complicated smokescreen thrown up to confuse with stocks and shares, markets, and other claptrap.

Some of the replies have come from the perspective of accepting the illusion as fact that we need people competent enough to do it, anybody could do it with the right information and structure beneath them.

People are too institutionalised, unable to think for themselves, just another part of the problem I suppose.

Brown Bomber

me_right_one wrote: »

As for the famine here, indeed such a tax would have been welcome, but it didnt happen then for the same reasons it wont happen now.

Lack of food wasn't the problem, poverty as a consequence of colonialism was. How many British landowners died of malnutriton?

Brown Bomber

I'd like for someone to show me some convincing evidence that there are too many mouths to feed/not enough food to go around, that free trade/free market is the magic solution, that the IMF/World Bank are the saviours. As far as I can tell the IMF and World Bank have only increased pain and suffering for the world's poor assisted corrupt governments and corporations.

A recent example concerning the IMF and flood-ravaged Pakistan.

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]According to an account published in the September 8 Dawn, IMF authorities took "a very strong position" during the talks, affirming "that the IMF executive board would not be interested in considering Pakistan’s request for more funds unless it made tangible progress" on implementing the IMF-dictated economic restructuring program.[/FONT]

which include:

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]The reforms that the IMF and World Bank are demanding include:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]
[*]The transformation of a General Sales Tax into a 15 percent Value Added Tax or VAT. The new tax will shift the burden of taxation from business to working people. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]
[*]The complete elimination of energy price subsidies. Previously the government had committed to increase the cost of electricity by at least 25 percent in three phrases over 6 months beginning this October 1. (The World Bank and Asian Development Back estimated earlier this year that a 49 percent increase would be required to meet the government’s pledge to end all electricity subsidies.) [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial]
[*]Full autonomy for the country’s central bank and the cessation of loans from the State Bank of Pakistan to the government. [/FONT]

Seems like people are more worried about bank charges than people dying of hunger, sad.

gizmo

uprising2 wrote: »

Economy's are controlled and manipulated, the system is corrupt to the core, the World Bank is a con, simply put the power's that be "need" poverty.

Please explain how keeping Africa poor aids "them" in any goal they could possibly have?

Also, what you described is a global initiative where transactions between banks are taxed. I'll ask again, if you don't think the World Bank or IMF are capable of doing it then who is?

uprising2 wrote: »

Why not everybody think in a more simplistic way, if you were given $400bn a year to distribute to worthy causes and kept nothing for yourself, could you do it?.

Some of the replies have come from the perspective of accepting the illusion as fact that we need people competent enough to do it, anybody could do it with the right information and structure beneath them.

You're confusing institutionalization with realism unfortunately. Personally no, I don't think I could do it and I highly doubt anyone here could do it either. There are too many countries which need such support and that kind of money would just breed inefficiency. The poor countries don't just need food bought for them, they need regime change and stability, they need infrastructure, they need properly trained people, they need equipment and they need continued support. The old Chinese proverb is quite relevant here: "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime." The former is what most countries have been doing for years and it has shown to simply not be effective. It's not just a matter of throwing money at an NGO and hoping it fixes itself.

sligopark

oh my god - another tax to be placed on the tax payer - those guys are starving for a reason - elite money making on the markets - they know how to make food cheaper they just don't care enough - just shows how naive the head of trocaire really is - keep filling those lenten boxes

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

Please explain how keeping Africa poor aids "them" in any goal they could possibly have?

It preserves US hedgemony. They are undemocratic slave states enforced by CIA trained death squads who have their own indigenous elite propped up and serving the the international corporations.

You think an African man who doesn't know where his childrens next meal is coming from is immediately concerned with revolution? I don't.

Mahatma coat

This Tax has been proposed a few times before, Wont happen, as BB demonstrated the IMF are all about screwin the little guy, and lining thepockets of their Fat Cat Owners, a proposed increase in VAT, now that they'd be in favour of because it takes money from Us not Them.

African famines are a weapon being used for the Supression of the Continent, A well Fed African population might just get the time to stick its head up from the Daily Sh!t its being put through and realise it was being F***ked over, A people united by a common cause could effectivvley overthrow the tinpot puppets installed by these Western Corporations and take back the resoursces that are rightly theirs

Cant have that now, FatCats gettin Poorer on two fronts there lads

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

It preserves US hedgemony. They are undemocratic slave states enforced by CIA trained death squads who have their own indigenous elite propped up and serving the the international corporations.

So despite the US having one of the most proactive anti-blood/conflict diamond policies across several administrations, you're still going to blame it on them?

Let's look at the situation in Niger so. The President decides he doesn't want to step down after the maximum number of years he is allowed to be in office, so he tries to abolish the Parliament, the constitution, initiate martial law and become a dictator. The army then step in and remove him and his cabinet from power, forming a transitional government and scheduling elections for early next year.

So, which ones did the CIA train? And what about the coup before that? And the government before that? You realise that after awhile it's obvious that it's not a conspiracy but just a bunch of barbarians scrambling for power themselves? And that much of the continent isn't in an almost permanent state of famine because of some massive corporate conspiracy but because of the drought and desertification?

joebucks

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Lack of food wasn't the problem, poverty as a consequence of colonialism was. How many British landowners died of malnutriton?

I agree with this. This is the same in many countries where there is mass starvation and famine. There is still a ruling elite who are very wealthy and have no problem getting food.

However I agree with Gizmo that aid is not always the solution for this problem. The people only become dependent on aid and never break out of the vicious cycle of poverty. There are so many different factors involved, tribal, caste systems, effects on the psyche of locals due to colonialism etc in many of the '3rd' world countries that western NGO's don't understand so throwing money at the problem will not make it go away.

I have experience working for a charity in Dublin after the Asian tsunami and the public donations were incredible, however the amount of money wasted by the charity on admin costs was unreal. But that was only the start of the problems. Getting what money and aid was available to the people that most needed it was the real problem. Local businessmen, politicians, military regimes etc all wanted their taste of any aid money and their interests looked after before the masses were dealt with.

Anyway it's a very, very complex issue and if anyone on this forum can come up with a solution then I think we should put them forward for a Nobel prize.

pablo_escobar

gizmo wrote: »

So, which ones did the CIA train? And what about the coup before that? And the government before that? You realise that after awhile it's obvious that it's not a conspiracy but just a bunch of barbarians scrambling for power themselves? And that much of the continent isn't in an almost permanent state of famine because of some massive corporate conspiracy but because of the drought and desertification?

We know Africa is a huge continent, rich in natural resources that many of our foreign corporations covet. ( oil, gas, diamonds, gold, silver, copper )

Geographically, It's one of, if not the most resource rich continents on the planet, yet it's the place we associate with war and famine.

A healthy democratic society with educated people would prevent outside corporations exploiting it so easily for profit.

Sani Abacha of Nigeria, a repressive dictator and kleptocrat, loved by US oil corporations.
Laurent Kabila of Congo , Idi Amin of Uganda and not to mention dozens of countries rich in natural resources ruled by dictators from south america to asia all fully supported by US administrations.

You used 2 very selective set of circumstances to argue external influence by secret agencies of the US is unfounded and nothing but a "Conspiracy Theory"

There's more evidence to suggest outside influence is the main cause of Africa's problems than drought itself.

Nehaxak

In fairness, the Chinese are more active in Africa exploiting the resources there than Americans but everyone seems to single out America when they're doing something wrong at all

Mahatma coat

Yeah, but Chinese colonial Ambitions are only in their infancy yet, Dont worry I'm sure a lot of people are Watching China, but they dont utilise the notion of accountability like the Western organisations claim to, so there is No double standard there, the Chinese Will just Act like a Shower of C***s if they feel like it, they dont seem to be pretending to do anything else other than that, now dont get me wrong I'm no fan of Chinese Expansion, but surely its up to us to get our own house in order first, start pulling these organisations up on this concept of accountability BEFORE they run the thing ragged and disappear off into the night

gizmo

pablo_escobar wrote: »

A healthy democratic society with educated people would prevent outside corporations exploiting it so easily for profit.

I completely agree and this is what I advocated above, rather than just spending billions in "aid" and food directly.

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Sani Abacha of Nigeria, a repressive dictator and kleptocrat, loved by US oil corporations.
Laurent Kabila of Congo , Idi Amin of Uganda and not to mention dozens of countries rich in natural resources ruled by dictators from south america to asia all fully supported by US administrations.

I can't find any info on US support for the former two dictators but Amin is a different story, shortly after his rise to power and his subsequent expulsion of Asians in the country (amongst other things) the US closed their embassy and denounced his government. That clearly had no effect. They later began a long line of economic sanctions against the country including the coffee boycott which indirectly led to his downfall. This is hardly a show of support from the US administration?

pablo_escobar wrote: »

There's more evidence to suggest outside influence is the main cause of Africa's problems than drought itself.

There are indeed many problems however it remains a huge one. Personally I'd rate the colonization by European nations as the first cause for the troubles, followed closely by the sheer unforgiving climate of the continent.

pablo_escobar

Nehaxak wrote: »

In fairness, the Chinese are more active in Africa exploiting the resources there than Americans but everyone seems to single out America when they're doing something wrong at all

You cannot preach about the value of human rights and democracy while also stripping away the rights of millions in pursuit of wealth.

When the US imposed sanctions on Iraq some years after arming both Iraq and Iran to fight each other, many innocent people suffered.

In a 60 minutes interview, the presenter Lesley Stahl put forth a question to Madeleine Albright.

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.

So there you have a US state representative admitting on television that being indirectly responsible for the deaths of half a million children is worth it.

And since 2003, how many other people have died?

gizmo

The issue of whether western nations should use economic means to put the squeeze on foreign regimes is one which has come up time and time again. Indeed it was a major issue around the time of Idi Amin since coffee was the largest export out of Uganda and the US were responsible for about 75% of this figure.

The problem then is, if economic sanctions are decried and military intervention is decried then what can be done? Should we condemn these nations to generations of tyrannical rule under these monsters?

uprising2

Were all connecting it to Africa and 3rd world countries, but seem to be forgetting that numbers of children woke up to empty fridges in Ireland today, no food to be had, and probably were living over a shop filled to the brim with goody's.
Actually in every 1st world city a number of children woke today with no food either, so isn't just plain greed a major contributing factor?
Shouldn't the system be changed to put humanity before profit, because that isn't the case right now, profit alway's comes first, isn't that morally wrong?

Govt's all over the world subsidise land, not to grow food,

Farm Program Pays $1.3 Billion to People Who Don't Farm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/01/AR2006070100962.html

It's all just about profit.
http://www.nfu.ca/briefs/2003/Myths_PREP_PDF_TWO.pdf
EDIT:

Today, agriculture demands improved productivity and efficiency. Cutting costs,
saving time, and ensuring the entire agricultural enterprise is more efficient and
accountable is essential to compete in domestic and global markets. (Trimble
Navigation Limited; http://www.trimble.com/agriculture.html )
Efficiency will be the watchword of successful farming in the new millennium.
Considering what’s going on with soybean growers in Brazil, as one notable
example, you have no choice but to become ever more efficient. (Donald R.
The Farm Crisis, Bigger Farms, and the Myths of “Competition” and “Efficiency” Page 2
Margenthaler, President, John Deere Foundation, National Outstanding Farmer
Luncheon Address, Mobile, Alabama, February 27, 1999)
[T]here are some who don’t understand modern farming and what it takes to
survive in a global marketplace with low commodity prices. . . . The [farmers] who
remain in full-time farming have been forced to use economies of scale. That is,
they’ve had to become more efficient by using technological advances and raising
more animals. (Bruce L. Hiatt, President, Virginia Farm Bureau Federation, The
President’s View, August 1999; www.vafb.com/opinions/1999/op_8_99.htm )
Farmers must be encouraged and assisted to compete aggressively in domestic and
international markets on the basis of efficiency and quality. . . . (Bob Speller,
Liberal Member of Parliament, “PM’s Task Force hopes to work with Agriculture
Minister, rural and farm organizations, consumer groups, to establish a vision,” Hill
Times, April 2, 2002)
[P]roducers must become more efficient and competitive in order to survive in an
increasingly global marketplace. (Senator Paul Coverdell, news release, Georgia
Peanut Commission, May 12, 2000)

gizmo

uprising2 wrote: »

Govt's all over the world subsidise land, not to grow food.

Were it not for the subsidies the EU provide our own agricultural sector, most farmers wouldn't be able to survive so that's hardly true. Also, in terms of our own country, our social welfare system is far fairer than other EU countries. If some kids are waking up to no food in their fridges then the level of child neglect is of greater concern.

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

I can't find any info on US support for the former two dictators but Amin is a different story, shortly after his rise to power and his subsequent expulsion of Asians in the country (amongst other things) the US closed their embassy and denounced his government. That clearly had no effect. They later began a long line of economic sanctions against the country including the coffee boycott which indirectly led to his downfall. This is hardly a show of support from the US administration?

Later? How much later? After Amin had turned against his masters later?

Amin, a former member of the British Army was trained as a paratrooper in Israel. According to Amin the Israelis were attempting to bankrupt Uganda, hence the break with US/UK/Israel. Prior to this he had been friends with Israeli PM Golda Meir and a house guest of Moshe Dayan. He was clearly a front for CIA/MOSSAD/MI5 who in turn are de facto agents of the corporations.

This is the reason for Amin's rise to power.

The "Common Man's Charter" http://www.radiorhino.org/htm_material/archiv/text/press/monitor/THE%20COMMON%20MAN%20CHARTER%20By%20DrAMO.htm

Then President Milton Obote was on the verge of changing the politcal system in Uganda:

The move to the Left is the creation of a new political culture and a new way of life, whereby the people of Uganda as a whole - their welfare and their voice in the National Government and in other local authorities - are paramount. It is, therefore, both anti-feudalism and anti-capitalism.

Western interests, primarily British were seriously threatened. Amin's coup came about within the year. It's not that hard to figure out is it?

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Later? How much later? After Amin had turned against his masters later?

The sanctions began in 1977 I believe, after the Air France hijacking and hostilities with Kenya? But what would you have suggested they do? The leader whom he deposed was going to ruin the country with his nationalization plan, similarly to what Mugabe has done in Zimbabwe so I hope to hell you're not supporting that, so they stepped in and in return, got a monster. They initially broke off diplomatic relations which had no effect, then after increasingly erratic behavior they employed economic sanctions which were decried. So again, what should have been done? Nothing? Let the country implode?

As for the Israeli comments, I've never condoned anything they've done however if you're going to look at Amin as someone who was wronged by them, also look at his behavior during the Airline hijacking with respect to the Jews on board.

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

You realise that after awhile it's obvious that it's not a conspiracy but just a bunch of barbarians scrambling for power themselves?

An imperialist faux pas?

Everything is obviously not a conspiracy if you don't even scratch the surface and swallow everything the Ministry of Truth tells you.

I'll give you an example. Two semi-related incidents which I am absolutely certain you have no idea about.

The Entebbe Hijacker crisis. It was Israeli engineered.

The Israeli secret service and radical Palestinians may have engineered the hijacking of an Air France plane that flew to Entebbe in Uganda, according to a claim in newly released government documents.

This extraordinary interpretation on the Entebbe raid was cited by a British diplomat, DH Colvin of the Paris embassy, in June 30 1976 as the world was transfixed by the hostage crisis in Entebbe, which features in the recent film The Last King of Scotland.

In a document released by the National Archives, Mr Colvin, citing an unnamed contact at the Euro-Arab parliamentary association, wrote: "According to his information, the hijack was the work of the PFLP [Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine], with help from the Israeli secret service, the Shin Beit."

Describing the collaboration as an unholy alliance, he went on: "The operation was designed to torpedo the PLO's [Palestine Liberation Organisation] standing in France and to prevent what they see as a growing rapprochement between the PLO and the Americans.

"Their nightmare is that after the November elections, one will witness the imposition in the Middle East of a Pax Americana, which will be the advantage of the PLO (who will gain international respectability and perhaps the right to establish a state on evacuated territories) and to the disadvantage of the Refusal Front (who will be squeezed right out in any overall peace settlement and will lose their raison d'etre) and Israel (who will be forced to evacuate occupied territory)."

Actually...this next part is a test. This video is only 3 seconds long.

http://yfrog.com/5hv0860301512kbframe45656z

It is an American solider at ground zero on 911 who can't speak english? WTF is that all about???

Buildings is going to collapse...Nothing informations

See if you can connect Idi Amin to this "US" solider. Hint: Israeli false-flag attacks.

gizmo

Brown Bomber wrote: »

An imperialist faux pas?

Hah, no I'm specifically referring to those people who would butcher their own people and loot their countries wealth for their own benefit.

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'll give you an example. Two semi-related incidents which I am absolutely certain you have no idea about.

The Entebbe Hijacker crisis. It was Israeli engineered.

You mean the event I mentioned before your post? The difference being, I don't consider one unsubstantiated report to be proof that it was orchestrated by the Israelis.

As for the rest, if you can indicate which building is being shown in the background I'll first believe it was even taken around the WTC. Secondly, are you now implying the Israelis carried out or had a hand in 9/11?

LevelSpirit

I have a better proposal.
Chuggers donate their wages for hassling people, many of whom already give to charity, would be a good way for them to prove they are actually trying to help the poor, blind, homeless etc.

Yes folks. those chuggers earn €13 per hour. Since they get paid per hour, they can answer the question "Do you get commission?", with a no. But make no mistake, most of the money you donate is going to them. Another chunk of it is going to their bosses.

Imagine how much of the money raised by charity goes into the pockets of those collecting it. Now imagine that how much that pocketed money could help the poor.

Brown Bomber

gizmo wrote: »

Hah, no I'm specifically referring to those people who would butcher their own people and loot their countries wealth for their own benefit.

I know. In fact my post came across unintentionally patronising so I apologise.

gizmo wrote: »

You mean the event I mentioned before your post? The difference being, I don't consider one unsubstantiated report to be proof that it was orchestrated by the Israelis.

I didn't doubt that you weren't aware of Entebbe, though I am sure there are many who are not. What I was confident that you weren't aware of was the Isreali involvement, which I am sure 99% are not.

Apologies for not linking originally.
Guardian Article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jun/01/israel
From the UK national archives: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/releases/2007/june/entebbe.htm

gizmo wrote: »

As for the rest, if you can indicate which building is being shown in the background I'll first believe it was even taken around the WTC. Secondly, are you now implying the Israelis carried out or had a hand in 9/11?

Best we forget about 911, it was my fault for bringing it up. This is an interesting thread IMO and I want to avoid taking it off topic if I can.

gizmo

No problems at all, I can see where you were coming from though but rest assured I don't hold any of those backward colonial beliefs.

You'd be correct on the assumption I wasn't aware of the (supposed) Israeli involvement alright. It just seems a little far fetched really, are there any other documented cases of Israeli agents working with their enemies in such a manner?

pablo_escobar

gizmo wrote:

The problem then is, if economic sanctions are decried and military intervention is decried then what can be done? Should we condemn these nations to generations of tyrannical rule under these monsters?

It's a pity we didn't have some anonymous US foreign policy advisor to answer that question but i'd say it depends on who the monster is working for.

If the monster is helping us achieve some objective, it's no secret those monsters are tolerated by the western governments, including the mainstream media.

Take for example the leader of Uzbekistan, Islam Karimov.
He's been in power since 1990, just after the breakup of the USSR.

Karimov is known as one of the worlds worst dictators but he can apparently do no wrong at the moment.

The US condemned Karimov for ordering to kill hundreds of demonstrators in 2005 who were protesting against the repressive Karimov regime.

In response to the criticism, Uzbekistan kicked out the US military who were using Uzbekistan for a military supply route.

Although there are supply routes through Pakistan, the security situation makes it unreliable

Karimov ordered the death of Muzafar Avazov in 2002 who was a vocal critic of the current regime.

Medical examiners found severe burns on Avazov's legs, buttocks, lower back and arms, covering 60-70% of his body, which they believed to be the result of immersion in boiling water.

There can be no criticism of Karimov because the US need him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7F00-UNp4rE

gizmo

I'm somewhat confused here...

pablo_escobar wrote: »

The US condemned Karimov for ordering to kill hundreds of demonstrators in 2005 who were protesting against the repressive Karimov regime.

In response to the criticism, Uzbekistan kicked out the US military who were using Uzbekistan for a military supply route.

But then you say...

pablo_escobar wrote: »

There can be no criticism of Karimov because the US need him.

pablo_escobar

Between 2001 and 2005 the United States Air Force used the base, also known as K2 and "Stronghold Freedom", for support missions against al-Qaeda in neighbouring Afghanistan. The 416th Air Expeditionary Operations Group was the host unit. On July 29, 2005, amid strained relations caused by the May 2005 unrest in Uzbekistan, the United States was told to vacate the base within six months. It was vacated by the United States in November 2005

timelines

2005 May 20, The EU and NATO called for an int’l. investigation into the May 13 suppression of protestors at Andijan, Uzbekistan.
(WSJ, 9/2/05, p.A13)

2005 May 25, China rolled out the red carpet for Uzbekistan's Pres. Karimov, underscoring the importance it places on curbing the rise of Islamic militancy as it welcomed the authoritarian leader criticized in the West for a bloody crackdown on protesters. China signed a $600 million joint oil venture with Uzbekistan.
(AP, 5/25/05)(WSJ, 5/26/05, p.A1)

2005 Jul 29, Uzbekistan notified the State Department that US military aircraft and personnel must leave Karshi-Khanabad air base, commonly referred to as K2, that has been an important hub for American military operations in Afghanistan.
(AP, 7/30/05)

2009 Jan 20, The head of US Central Command said the US has struck deals with Russia and neighboring countries allowing it to transport supplies to American troops in Afghanistan through their territory. US officials have said that one likely route is overland from Russia through Kazakhstan and on through Uzbekistan using trucks and trains. Another possible route is via Azerbaijan across the Caspian Sea to the Kazakh port of Aktau and then through Uzbekistan.
(AP, 1/20/09)

The US need Uzbekistan for supply route because of the security problem present in pakistan, so it's unlikely we'll hear any future criticism of Karimov, just praise.

WakeUp

The "people" who run our world should hang their heads in shame. Shame on all of them there is now way in this day and age people should be going hungry. Sort it out you kunt's:),do something and make it happen I for one am tired of excuse's. This really bothers me.

uprising2

Here's an example of plunder from todays news, french and spanish mining uranium, a kidnapping of mine staff, it's blamed on AQIM....(Al Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb:rolleyes:), france sends in troops to guard the mine from AQIM, kills some terrorists, the fight on terror goes on, oh and some civilians got killed.

Mauritania kills two civilians in Mali Qaeda raid.
The kidnappers, suspected of being al Qaeda fighters, seized seven mining company staff from Arlit in northern Niger last Thursday, five French, one Togolese and one from Madagascar.
Two months ago French and Mauritanian forces killed six fighters from al Qaeda's north African wing in the Malian desert during an effort to free a French hostage the group was holding. Al Qaeda said it later killed the hostage.
About 100 French anti-terrorism specialists have arrived in Niamey, Niger's capital, aboard reconnaissance aircraft, the source added. Arlit is close to the site of uranium mining operations that are the mainstay of Niger's economy.
http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE68J0ID20100920

More plunder,

The IMF trimmed Congo's 2010 growth forecast to 10.6 percent from 12.1 percent and boosted its 2011 growth forecast to 8.7 percent from 6.6 percent as increases in oil production have taken longer than anticipated.
Melhado said Congo's oil production would peak in 2011 near 370,000 bpd due to new output from fields operated by Total, Murphy, ENI and TEP-Congo, before output falls into decline.

http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE68J08U20100920

Eyeing up some future bounty.

When some of the most influential figures in emerging markets finance spoke to a group of Reuters editors, they were asked about top picks for growth beyond the so-called BRIC countries of Brazil, Russia, India and China.
One continent came up again and again – Africa – and one country in particular – Nigeria. Goldman Sachs global head of economic research, Jim O’Neill, highlighted the improvement in the growth-environment index of Africa’s giant over the past decade.

http://blogs.reuters.com/africanews/2010/07/07/africa-optimism-rising/

Stealing the gold.....

Lake Victoria Completes Drilling of Sambaru 3, 4 and 5 Targets at Singida Gold Project, Tanzania and Submits the First.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUS108450+20-Sep-2010+MW20100920

Some of the thieves,

The company quickly realized that there were tremendous benefits to be had, marrying the international investor to the peaceful country of Tanzania, its people and its mineral wealth.
http://www.lakevictoriaminingcompany.com/corporate/overview.php

plunder and death....

AngloGold shuts S.Africa mine after death
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE68J1IE20100920

Some happy gold barons........

DENVER, Sept 19 (Reuters) - Small wonder that gold mining executives are smiling these days.
Many gold bulls seem to think the sky's the limit. Even billionaire George Soros, who has warned that gold is "the ultimate bubble," has heavily invested in gold and gold-mining companies through his Soros Fund Management LLC hedge fund.
That's what a recession will do for the metal, which is traditionally regarded as a safe haven for investors in times of economic uncertainty.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN167056020100920

Maggie's son trying to take over a small African country, how very british of him..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUHssNKl8xc

joebucks

Great to see Bono is still fighting the good fight.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/poor_idea_bono_bsUzJMfT2mBJbqyXgp6YoO#ixzz10AdTHKdI

The Bono nonprofit took in $14,993,873 in public donations in 2008, the latest year for which tax records are available.
Of that, $184,732 was distributed to three charities, according to the IRS filing.
Meanwhile, more than $8 million was spent on executive and employee salaries.

Yitzhak Rabin

joebucks wrote: »

Great to see Bono is still fighting the good fight.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/poor_idea_bono_bsUzJMfT2mBJbqyXgp6YoO#ixzz10AdTHKdI

What a self serving scumbag.

To think he is in the "Top 5 Greatest Irish People" as voted by us the public is sickening.

Torakx

Well he did bend knee to the queen so anything isnt suprising after that :P

WakeUp

joebucks wrote: »

Great to see Bono is still fighting the good fight.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/poor_idea_bono_bsUzJMfT2mBJbqyXgp6YoO#ixzz10AdTHKdI

St. Bono is a muppet who makes' "normal" people feel bad about our not so great live's, tonight thank God its them instead of you and all that, whilst him and his rich type ilk live the high life without a care in the world. Thanks for that Bono:).

uprising2

I hate that little self serving dikk, its all about Bono, Bono and Bono, the elites on-call 24/7 lapdancer.
The great humanitarian, he just ooze's sincerity to millions of deluded boners, hypocite, tax dodging runt.


"Hurry up and take the picture, he's breathing on me and this crap smells rotten".



"Look at them idiots george, they'd believe anything, isn't being us great!"

"Sure as heck is boner"





Intimate moment.









Remember the LIVE 8 "Make Poverty History" (past, present and future history!) scam.

Live 8: Corporate Media Bonanza
Disinformation Campaign and Public Relations Stunt on behalf of the G8

Distorting the Causes of Global Poverty
The concerts are totally devoid of political content. They concentrate on simple and misleading clichés.
They use poverty as a marketing tool and a consumer-advertising gimmick to increase the number of viewers and listeners worldwide.
Live 8 creates an aura of optimism. It conveys the impression that poverty can be vanquished with the stroke of the pen. All we need is good will. The message is that G8 leaders, together with the World Bank and the IMF, are ultimately committed to poverty alleviation.

In this regard, the concerts are part of the broader process of media disinformation. They are used as a timely public relations stunt for Prime Minister Tony Blair, who is hosting the G-8 Summit at Gleneagles, Scotland. Tony Blair is presented as stepping up his campaign to convince other G8 nations "to take action on poverty". The G8's Debt Forgiveness Proposal

Live 8 fails to challenge or comprehend the G8 policy agenda which directly contributes to creating poverty, nor does it question the role of the World Bank, now under the helm of Paul Wolfowitz, the neo-conservative architect of the invasion of Iraq,

In addressing the issue of debt forgiveness, Live 8 does not even acknowledge the impacts of IMF-World Bank "economic medicine" imposed on the World's poorest countries on behalf of Western creditors.

These deadly macro-economic reforms have contributed to the impoverishment of miillions of people. They oblige countries to close down their schools and hospitals, privatize their public services and sell off the most profitable sectors of their national economy to foreign capital. In return, the G8 promises to increase foreign aid and provide token debt relief. These reforms kill and the G8 is not the solution but the cause. Actor Will Smith addressed the crowds at the concert venues "to snap their fingers" as a reminder that every three seconds a child dies in Africa. What he failed to mention is that the main cause of child mortality in Africa are the deadly macroeconomic reforms.

Bob Geldof sees an increase in foreign aid completely out of context, as a "unique opportunity" to eradicating poverty, when in fact the proposed increase in aid flows by the rich G8 countries will lead to exactly the opposite results.

A large percentage of the debt of these countries is owed to the World Bank, the IMF and the African Development Bank
To address this issue, G8 finance ministers had indeed put forth a proposal which consisted in "foregiving" the outstanding debt owed to these three international financial institutions by the 18 highly indebted countries. The debt forgiveness figure mentioned was of the order of 40 billion dollars. Concurrently, there was a vague commitment to eventually increasing foreign aid flows to the 0.7% of GDP target. (http://www.g8.utoronto.ca/finance/fm050611_dev.htm )

Where is the hitch behind this seemingly reasonable "debt forgiveness" proposal?
The IMF, the World Bank and the African Development Bank, never cancel or forgive outstanding debts.

Because they do not forgive debts, the G8 has committed itself to reimbursing the multilateral creditors acting on behalf of the World's poorest countries.
Where will they get the money?

For each dollar of "debt cancellation" to the international financial institutions, the G8 will reduce the flow of foreign aid to these countries. In other words, the foreign aid earmarked to finance much needed social programs will now go directly into the coffers of the IMF and the World Bank.

There is nothing new in this financial mechanism. It has been used time and again since the onslaught of the debt crisis.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=641

“Live 8”--a political fraud on behalf of imperialism
Returning the favour, Geldof and Bono have been invited to attend the G8 summit. Almost every utterance made by the pair portrays Blair and Bush as the potential saviours of Africa, whilst keeping silent on their war against Iraq. Bono described Blair and Brown as “the John [Lennon] and Paul [McCartney] of the global development stage,”
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/jul2005/live-j01.shtml

Another sckening example of fat cat greed closer to home, Savage cutbacks being called for from a man, Dr Patrick Honohan whose predecessor was paid €369,078 a year, and doesn't like the idea of capping bank exec's salaries.

New Central Bank chief wants salary cap lifted
THE new governor of the Central Bank has come out against capping the salaries of top-earning bank executives.
In an exclusive interview with the Irish Independent, Dr Patrick Honohan said banks risked losing out on the best candidates if they could not offer competitive pay packages
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/new-central-bank-chief-wants-salary-cap-lifted-1947871.html

Central Bank boss calls for more savage cuts in Budget

By Donal O'Donovan and Sarah Collins

Tuesday September 21 2010

MORE savage Budget cutbacks are necessary if international investors are to be convinced that Ireland is on the path to recovery, the governor of the Central Bank warned yesterday.
Professor Patrick Honohan suggested the Government look again at its cost-cutting plans for the upcoming Budget.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/central-bank-boss-calls-for-more-savage-cuts-in-budget-2345640.html

bonkey

This doesn't seem to be much about any sort of conspiracy....rather just a "rail against the injustice and inequality inherent in the system" thread.

As such, it seems more suited to somewhere like Humanities

uprising2

bonkey wrote: »

This doesn't seem to be much about any sort of conspiracy....rather just a "rail against the injustice and inequality inherent in the system" thread.

As such, it seems more suited to somewhere like Humanities

The conspiracy is that world leaders and various elites and international organisations act as if the want to stop and fix hunger and poverty, when the opposite is in fact what their true goals are, millions of people around the globe foolishly believe believe that the IMF,World Bank, Bono, Bill Gates, Bill Clinton and co are trying to relieve debt and suffering, the foolishly believe that the world cannot feed itself, that we need these multinational movers and shakers to make the world go round, when its all just a meaningless illusion, to keep the system as is.

Hope thats conspiracy enough.

bonkey

uprising2 wrote: »

The conspiracy is that world leaders and various elites and international organisations act as if the want to stop and fix hunger and poverty, when the opposite is in fact what their true goals are,

Thats not a conspiracy though....its assigning a motive to individuals to explain their actions, rather then showing that they are conspiring about anything.

People are greedy. We know this. Discussing human greed isn't a conspiracy theory. Accusing people of greed isn't a conspiracy theory.

Consider this...it is almost certain that the average poster on this forum lies above both the median and the average when it comes to wealth and standard of living. Its certain that simply by being able to read this message, you are in the top 33% when it comes to literacy, and in the top 7% simply by having access to a computer (regardless of whether or not you own it). If you went to college and got a degree, you're in the top 1% when it comes to education.

If you're not malnourished, you're already in the top 50%

Now...we can look at the fat cats and complain that they aren't solving the world's problems....and that's true. We're not solving them either, though. We have more then our fair share, and insist that the problem lies elsewhere...but that's not a conspiracy. Its not even greed. Its justifiable.

So tell me again where the conspiracy is? Is the conspiracy that people with more then their fair share are conspiring to do something? Are we all in on it then? We are the elite....at least in the eyes of those without.

I don't know about you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not conspiring to do anything to these people. I profess to care about them, but I'll readily admit that I'm also part of the problem. That's what it is, though. Its a problem, not a conspiracy.

So why does it become a conspiracy when its richer or more influential people? Why are they not just richer and more influential versions of us here...people who may or may not care about the problem, but either which way are part of the perpetuation of the problem?

So where is the conspiracy?

the foolishly believe that the world cannot feed itself,

Other then people trying to argue that its false, I haven't seen anyone suggest the idea that the current world population cannot be fed by the current world generation of food. I've never seen any activist who's combatting poverty and malnutrition suggest as much. I have never once seen someone suggest that we need to increase world food production in order to be able to feed people, or that we need to let people die of starvation because we don't have the food to feed them.