What happens if this kid dies?

actuallylike

How do, firstly apologies if this is in the wrong forum. It's to do with the Pope so obviously all Christians aren't concerned. Just want the views of Catholics really.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/cancer-boy-9-to-get-special-papal-blessing-2339373.html

Read this the other day and got me thinking, the Pope, the Big Cheese, the numero...one of Catholics (at least that's what I've been led to believe) has promised to bless this child who suffers from cancer.
Now I know that big requests (world peace, end to hunger, etc.) could be considered difficult to facilitate but this is something seemingly so simple that the Pope himself is using his direct line to God to ask him to spare this boy (I know cancer isn't a 'simple' problem, just in comparison to the larger problems I mentioned).

If this child dies of cancer after the Pope has tried to intervene, what does this say to Catholics? I mean, if he can't stop something like this, is there any point in anyone ever praying to God if a loved one is in trouble?

Gurgle

Question is disingenuous. There is no suggestion in Catholic teachings that the Pope can boss God around. (This answer from an athiest btw).

JimiTime

Gurgle wrote: »

Question is disingenuous. There is no suggestion in Catholic teachings that the Pope can boss God around. (This answer from an athiest btw).

Actually, not quite 'boss God around', but apostolic sucession is what is taught. Also 'forgiveness of sins' is taught to be empowered in Catholocism. Also, as we are reminded regularly, the power to bind and loosen etc.

If The pope is truly apostolic, then if he says that this boy will be healed, then his words will by no means hit the ground.

Seaneh

actuallylike wrote: »

= Pope himself is using his direct line to God to ask him to spare this boy

The pope has no more of a direct line to God than any Christian, he's just a man. a Falible, sinful, imperfect man just like me or Jakkass or PDN or any other Christian you know.

Gurgle

JimiTime wrote: »

Actually, not quite 'boss God around', but apostolic sucession is what is taught.

Follow the succession right back to the apostles, but they didn't get to boss God around either.

The implication in the OP was that if his Popeyness asked God to heal the child and the child died then this would prove/disprove a point. Not so, either way.

Manach

Should God grant this miracle, it would be through the act of prayer which any Catholic processes, and might be effected indirectly through the skill of the attending doctors' actions.

As for the imperfectable of others, as I'm not in management I'll owe up to being far from perfect but Catholicism is a good guide way of getting closer.

strobe

Seaneh wrote: »

just like me or Jakkass or PDN

Ahh, the other holy trinity.

Seaneh

strobe wrote: »

Ahh, the other holy trinity.

Dunno about the other two, but I am far from holy.

Stinicker

actuallylike wrote: »

How do, firstly apologies if this is in the wrong forum. It's to do with the Pope so obviously all Christians aren't concerned. Just want the views of Catholics really.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/cancer-boy-9-to-get-special-papal-blessing-2339373.html

Read this the other day and got me thinking, the Pope, the Big Cheese, the numero...one of Catholics (at least that's what I've been led to believe) has promised to bless this child who suffers from cancer.
Now I know that big requests (world peace, end to hunger, etc.) could be considered difficult to facilitate but this is something seemingly so simple that the Pope himself is using his direct line to God to ask him to spare this boy (I know cancer isn't a 'simple' problem, just in comparison to the larger problems I mentioned).

If this child dies of cancer after the Pope has tried to intervene, what does this say to Catholics? I mean, if he can't stop something like this, is there any point in anyone ever praying to God if a loved one is in trouble?

If that child dies then it says to me that the Lord has greater plans for him in the Kingdom of Heaven and he will go to heaven as an angel. The lord works in mysterious ways and this is the work of god.

Seaneh

Stinicker wrote: »

If that child dies then it says to me that the Lord has greater plans for him in the Kingdom of Heaven and he will go to heaven as an angel. The lord works in mysterious ways and this is the work of god.

What?
Where did you pull that out of?
Angels and Humans are extremely different.
Humans do not become angels...

Des Carter

actuallylike wrote: »

How do, firstly apologies if this is in the wrong forum. It's to do with the Pope so obviously all Christians aren't concerned. Just want the views of Catholics really.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/europe/cancer-boy-9-to-get-special-papal-blessing-2339373.html

Read this the other day and got me thinking, the Pope, the Big Cheese, the numero...one of Catholics (at least that's what I've been led to believe) has promised to bless this child who suffers from cancer.
Now I know that big requests (world peace, end to hunger, etc.) could be considered difficult to facilitate but this is something seemingly so simple that the Pope himself is using his direct line to God to ask him to spare this boy (I know cancer isn't a 'simple' problem, just in comparison to the larger problems I mentioned).

If this child dies of cancer after the Pope has tried to intervene, what does this say to Catholics? I mean, if he can't stop something like this, is there any point in anyone ever praying to God if a loved one is in trouble?

He says hes gonna bless this child - not cure him.

big difference.

Onesimus

Seaneh wrote: »

What?
Where did you pull that out of?
Angels and Humans are extremely different.
Humans do not become angels...

Matthew:22:30
For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Above is an interesting verse for you to ponder on Seaneh.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

The pope has no more of a direct line to God than any Christian, he's just a man. a Falible, sinful, imperfect man just like me or Jakkass or PDN or any other Christian you know.

What's this all about then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

PDN

Ush1 wrote: »

What's this all about then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Er, Seaneh's not a Catholic.

Onesimus

Ush1 wrote: »

What's this all about then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Seaneh is right though, but His Holiness isnt infallible, but carries the charism of infallibility and anyone who wants to know more about this charism its important that we look more into it and study it, even myself and many Catholics need to do so, if we are to truly understand it.

Fanny Cradock

Ush1 wrote: »

What's this all about then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

Did you even bother to read the link?

BrokenArrows

Onesimus wrote: »

Matthew:22:30
For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Above is an interesting verse for you to ponder on Seaneh.

means they will be in heaven as well as the angels, not they will be in heaven as angels.


I don't believe in god, its just english.

Ush1

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Did you even bother to read the link?

Yes, why? Did you?

"Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation"

prinz

This is an interesting question. There was a biographical film on last weekend about Pope John Paul II, and during the course of the movie (I am unsure of the historical accuracy of this - perhaps poetic license) and during his fairly frequent post-assassination attempt visits to hospital in Rome he befriended a child ill in hospital and the child's mother. He met them a number of times IIRC and eventually saw the child was succumbing to the illness. The mother posed the same questions to John Paul II, why does God do this? What can the Pope do the doctors couldn't? etc. He blessed the child and spoke with the mother on a spiritual level. Personally I got the impression that the child did indeed die.

Ush1 wrote: »

What's this all about then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_infallibility

The Pope is deemed infallible in very, very, very, very, very limited circumstances to do with the core Catholic beliefs.

If the Pope says black is white it doesn't make it so, nor does it have any bearing on Papal Infallibility.

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

The Pope is deemed infallible in very, very, very, very, very limited circumstances to do with the core Catholic beliefs.

If the Pope says black is white it doesn't make it so, nor does it have any bearing on Papal Infallibility.

"universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation"

So if he could link black being white to divine revelation? For instance, an angel appearing to him?

It sounds broader than core beliefs, the bible is divine revelation yes?

Onesimus

Ush1 wrote: »

Yes, why? Did you?

"Papal infallibility is the dogma in Roman Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error[1] when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the universal Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation"

Your not reading it properly ush1 and I is too lazzy this evening to bother.

but anyway here is my 2 cents I'll let someone else expand if they can, its only when he promulgates a doctrine or discipline, he isnt infallible 24/7 days a week. this charism in the history of the Church was only ever put into force twice in the churches 2000 year olds history, one being the doctrine of the immaculate Mary and the other being her assumption, which were traditions already believed by the Church, so the Pope of the time to cancel out all confusion completed rather what was already a common tradtion and belief for centuries.

Ush1

Onesimus wrote: »

Your not reading it properly ush1 and I is too lazzy this evening to bother.

but anyway here is my 2 cents I'll let someone else expand if they can, its only when he promulgates a doctrine or discipline, he isnt infallible 24/7 days a week. this charism in the history of the Church was only ever put into force twice in the churches 2000 year olds history, one being the doctrine of the immaculate Mary and the other being her assumption, which were traditions already believed by the Church, so the Pope of the time to cancel out all confusion completed rather what was already a common tradtion and belief for centuries.

Please tell me what I'm not reading properly. When it comes to something like divine revelation, the pope can't be wrong, is that not true?

From your 2 cents it sounds like his "infallibilty" is useless as it's only been used to re enforce what was already believed?

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

So if he could link black being white to divine revelation? For instance, an angel appearing to him?

Do angels concern themselves with interior decorating now? :rolleyes: Perhaps they do. I'll go with Onesimus on this and won't bother further.

Onesimus

Ush1 wrote: »

Please tell me what I'm not reading properly. When it comes to something like divine revelation, the pope can't be wrong, is that not true?

From your 2 cents it sounds like his "infallibilty" is useless as it's only been used to re enforce what was already believed?

The Pope is the guardian of the faith not the master of it, and when a completion of doctrine must be made he sits in the Chair of Peter and declares it a part of the faith, thats only happened twice. But infallibility goes in deeper too, the Pope makes infallible proclaimations too but I forget how that works try looking it up on www.newadvent.org I'm sure they give the full wack of it there. If there is anything I've learned from this conversation is that I need to know my faith more.

Onesimus

prinz wrote: »

Do angels concern themselves with interior decorating now? :rolleyes: Perhaps they do. I'll go with Onesimus on this and won't bother further.

I think its important for us to answer questions seriously according to our limited knowledge about the faith. I didnt want to expand on it as I cant and I'm too lazy this evening to think so instead I'm showing him through the door of New Advent to see if they can help him with his questions there.

prinz

Onesimus wrote: »

I think its important for us to answer questions seriously according to our limited knowledge about the faith..

I'll answer serious questions with a serious answer.;)

Ush1

Onesimus wrote: »

The Pope is the guardian of the faith not the master of it, and when a completion of doctrine must be made he sits in the Chair of Peter and declares it a part of the faith, thats only happened twice. But infallibility goes in deeper too, the Pope makes infallible proclaimations too but I forget how that works try looking it up on www.newadvent.org I'm sure they give the full wack of it there. If there is anything I've learned from this conversation is that I need to know my faith more.

Okay but surely infallibility is a bad phrase to use in that case? Do you mean it's a power he never exercises but can or that he actually can't?Which part have I not read properly?

Onesimus

prinz wrote: »

I'll answer serious questions with a serious answer.;)

ok.....

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

I'll answer serious questions with a serious answer.;)

Fair enough, you're the one who mentioned colours to begin with.

I was looking for a succinct definition.

Onesimus

Ush1 wrote: »

Fair enough, you're the one who mentioned colours to begin with.

I was looking for a succinct definition.

woooo this is a new word to me, what does it mean? why do I feel like the most uneducated Christian within this thread at the moment? :pac::D














*whispers*because I am the most uneducated Christian on this forum

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

I was looking for a succinct definition.

I have read the wikipedia page on this and if I remember correctly it deals quite well with the concept and outlining the circumstances it can be used. Perhaps you should read it again, and think about it for a while then come back with questions.

A Pope could go the entire length of their papacy without ever invoking infallibility for instance. There is a common misconception that the Pope is always infallible in everything he says/does. Thats wrong. It's a power that a Pope can exercise but very rarely does.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

prinz

Interesting note, the Pope just blessed the kid in question from the OP at Bellahouston

goose2005

Onesimus wrote: »

Matthew:22:30
For in the resurrection they shall neither marry nor be married; but shall be as the angels of God in heaven.

Above is an interesting verse for you to ponder on Seaneh.

They shall be AS angels, they won't be actual angels.

Stinicker wrote: »

If that child dies then it says to me that the Lord has greater plans for him in the Kingdom of Heaven and he will go to heaven as an angel. The lord works in mysterious ways and this is the work of god.

So if it works, God is great and good.
If it doesn't work, he's still great but has "other plans". If only "working in mysterious ways" could be used as a court defence.

What the Pope is doing is monstrous, if I claimed to be capable of getting supernatural beings to cure children I would be denounced as a charlatan.

Glenster

goose2005 wrote: »

They shall be AS angels, they won't be actual angels.

Subtleties like this are great until you realise that our english bible is several times removed from the original.

Who's to say whether we'll be like angels or angels. Dont worry about it so much.

prinz

goose2005 wrote: »

What the Pope is doing is monstrous...

Blessing a sick kid who wanted it? Monstrous indeed.

goose2005 wrote: »

....if I claimed to be capable of getting supernatural beings to cure children I would be denounced as a charlatan.

Did the Pope claim to be capable of this?

Ush1

prinz wrote: »

I have read the wikipedia page on this and if I remember correctly it deals quite well with the concept and outlining the circumstances it can be used. Perhaps you should read it again, and think about it for a while then come back with questions.

A Pope could go the entire length of their papacy without ever invoking infallibility for instance. There is a common misconception that the Pope is always infallible in everything he says/does. Thats wrong. It's a power that a Pope can exercise but very rarely does.

http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

I didn't ask about how often popes use it, I asked about its concept. I didn't have any misconception. I am saying, whether popes do it or not, do they have the power to say something when it is regarding divine revelation and they can't be wrong on it?

prinz

Ush1 wrote: »

I am saying, whether popes do it or not, do they have the power to say something when it is regarding divine revelation and they can't be wrong on it?

Only if it relates to something already a widely held belief in Catholicism, the Pope can confirm the belief and declare it to be infallible doctrine, i.e. that x version of y belief is the version to be understood by all Catholics, so you don't have Catholics in different parts of the world being taught different interpretations of the same belief.

The Pope cannot turn around tomorrow and declare that it was divinely revealed to him that apples are in fact oranges.

alex73

The boy does not have cancer.... He HAD cancer.