Why are we not doing something?

largepants

I'm not hugely into politics but I'm amazed by Berite Ahern on last nights tv programme. But what amazing me more is why as the people of this nation we are not rebelling against our government. Why are we not demanding action be taken against some of our banker, developers and politicians?No this is not another online rant. I'm very serious. They are making fools of the whole lot of us and we're all standing back and letting them do it.How are these things organised? Something has to be done.

ei.sdraob

see this excellent article few days ago

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-must-discard-futile-delay-and-pray-strategy-2334554.html

What is clear is that the Irish people are in an abusive relationship with their political and protected elite of kingmakers. They can't worry about the nation when they spend all their time worrying about self-preservation. So many people rely on the current corrupt system staying in place that they refuse to see what is happening, as they have their vested interests to protect. Ireland needs to put itself on emergency footing, but those in positions to influence the future of the nation have gone missing in action -- not only our politicians but the entire media seems to have taken the summer off.

that would answer the "why?" in your post

dan_d

I agree, but to be honest, you're posting in the wrong place to find anyone to support you.

The thread will just evolve into a row about how FF weren't really bad, they just did what they had to do, and how they're better/worse than anything else out there (take your pick)

That's after everyone has given you a reason why they personally can't be involved in any kind of public outcry, ranging from being too busy to "not my problem".

I'm quite a positive person usually, and I'm not in the habit of endlessly criticising other posters, but there's just no point in looking for action around here. The majority of people who post here won't budge.They'll have lots of reasons as to why they won't budge, but the bottom line is that they just won't. I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere....I'm trying to....

largepants

ei.sdraob wrote: »

see this excellent article few days ago

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-must-discard-futile-delay-and-pray-strategy-2334554.html



that would answer the "why?" in your post

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

Cookie_Monster

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen?

why are you?
Thats what you really need to ask. If you, yourself do something maybe others will follow...

largepants

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

as i highlighted

while some people have it failry bad, the majority dont

to give an example:
* if you are an OAP you are now getting more money than ever before and deflation is helping things some more
* if you are on welfare you are getting 3x more than north of the border, you might not want to rock the boat...
* if you are public servant you were bought off until 2014 with promises of no more cuts and still have a job paying on average 30% more than private sector and security

to summarize FF have bought off many important groups that might riot with borrowed money, money that these very same people will have to pay back directly and indirectly over next decade

the self preservation drive of the FF group is leading this country into a hole as they "buy off" other key groups, typical of their strategy over last decade

scargill

this is why!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

Alot of people dont want to protest and riot since these protests usually tend to attract some nutcases who like to cause trouble and hijack demonstrations.

largepants

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why are you?
Thats what you really need to ask. If you, yourself do something maybe others will follow...

Without wanting to sound stupid I honestly wouldn't know where to start. Would the likes of facebook be any good to try and do something like this. As mentioned I wouldn't be hugely into politics but they are making fools of us.Tis only on the Sundays papers that we had an extremely happy Cowen posing with an even happier Johnny Ronan. And Ronan wasn't wearing cheap demins with a Heatons shirt on either. It's a joke.

largepants

ei.sdraob wrote: »

as i highlighted

while some people have it failry bad, the majority dont

to give an example:
* if you are an OAP you are now getting more money than ever before and deflation is helping things some more
* if you are on welfare you are getting 3x more than north of the border, you might not want to rock the boat...
* if you are public servant you were bought off until 2014 with promises of no more cuts and still have a job paying on average 30% more than private sector and security

to summarize FF have bought off many important groups that might riot with borrowed money, money that these very same people will have to pay back directly and indirectly over next decade

the self preservation drive of the FF group is leading this country into a hole as they "buy off" other key groups, typical of their strategy over last decade

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

danbohan

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

for years the irish have done most of their rebelling propped up to a bar counter , now they are doing most of it on places like boards etc , all very safe and cosy .our politicial masters know this very well too and can get away with downright theft from the irish people knowing that we will grumble and moan but thats it . at this stage it should be unsafe for clowen and co to leave the bunker let alone have a '' think in '' in galway . but as always in the past we will acept it . we will just change the goverment which really only means giving another group of useless no hopers a chance to rob us further while the ambitious and the talented quietly head to the exit doors if they can find enough places to exit too

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob's post have hit the nail on the head, we had a similar thread not long ago. There are people who are finding the going very tough, but the majority of people are still fine, and will happily go along with the status quo while it ensures they are ok. The only people with any real reason to cause a scene are the newly unemployed, they came mostly from construction, and are young men mainly. Most of them would have little understanding of our economic woes, apart from the fact that they have cost them a job, and most wouldn't have particularly strong political views one way or the other, they have neither the will nor the organization to protest en masse. If we saw a Greek style crisis where deep and really painful cuts had to be made across the board, I'm talking about 20-30% cuts in dole & PS pay & redundancies, then we would see people in the streets. Bottom line, as incredible as this seems, the recession hasn't hurt enough people badly enough yet to see mass protests, but the way we are going that is only a matter of time.

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

Dont worry i do not wish to turn it into one either

What I did was provide examples of groups which are not doing too badly in a country that's bankrupt, due to FF being able to borrow crazy amounts that we have no chance of repaying at higher and higher rates

Dirk Gently

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

We always have been tbh. Irish people are traditionally docile to those in power. Don't believe the fighting Irish myth. Whether it was church dominance or wink and nod business and political culture, the ordinary people are detached and subservient to whomever the masters of the day are. It's always been that way. There simply isn't a social consciousness in this state like there is in Greece or France or most other western countries.

feicim

ei.sdraob wrote: »

..
What I did was provide examples of groups which are not doing too badly in a country that's bankrupt, ...

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

If you mean that in the sense that they aren't starving to death or living in a cardboard box under a bridge then yes they aren't doing too bad. There are a lot of recently unemployed having to deal with huge income drops and combined with the prospect of no jobs for the fore-seeable future and the prospect of no improvement in their massively reduced standard of living, losing their home plus all the the family/mental health problems that can arise from such worries. Ever hear of the poverty trap? Look it up.

I'm not convinced the recently unemployed casualties of the celtic tiger should be put in the same "group thats not doing to badly" bracket as pensioners and the public service who still have well paying jobs.

I'm just glad you are not a politician, because the country would actually be in a worse mess with robots people like you in charge.

dan_d

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

Well, I should have amended my last point to say there aren't too many places to look, because people just aren't interested. It's easier to ring Joe Duffy and complain, than to go out and participate. It's definitely easier if it means that you might be interested in the good of the country, rather than the good of your local street/village/GAA club. It's how we do business around here.

I hear your point op, don't get me wrong. And I agree wholeheartedly. But it's an argument I have tried to have many, many times around here and it just goes nowhere.

the_syco

feicim wrote: »

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

A drop, yes. But they still have some sort of income.

If all the people on this thread who thinks someone should do more PM'ed each other, and got a few people affected to come along, and protested somewhere in Dublin, nearby government offices, after some media were tipped off, you'd get more people joining your "cause". You'd probably have a few socialists join you, to assist your campaign against the capitalist state which caused all of your woes.

But it's easier to follow than to lead, so lets just b|tch about the lack of rebellion leaders on boards.ie instead of actually doing something about it... :rolleyes:

SkepticOne

The reason people aren't out on the streets is that things are being dragged out over a very long period. Problems are being stored up rather than dealt with.

Comparisons have been made with Iceland. The Icelanders are very undemonstrative but because their events were sudden, they were out on the street.

Personally I think the key thing is that the governing parties need to be punished electorally not just in the next election (which I think they have more or less accepted that they will lose) but more importantly in the one after that. If we bring them back in after one term in opposition then it no amount of marching in the street will be of any importance.

Count Dooku

SkepticOne wrote: »

Personally I think the key thing is that the governing parties need to be punished electorally not just in the next election (which I think they have more or less accepted that they will lose) but more importantly in the one after that. If we bring them back in after one term in opposition then it no amount of marching in the street will be of any importance.

Why only governing parties?
Opposition must be punished as well and main goal on next election must be to get rid of all present political establishment.

gurramok

Why are the opposition parties not organising daily demo's? They could lead the disgruntled by example.

SkepticOne

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why only governing parties?
Opposition must be punished as well and main goal on next election must be to get rid of all present political establishment.

And elect who?

SkepticOne

gurramok wrote: »

Why are the opposition parties not organising daily demo's? They could lead the disgruntled by example.

Because they know (bar some huge scandal) that they are going to win the next election. Any disgruntlement they stir up will continue into their term of office. It is not as if the economic problems will be solved in the next few years.

the_dark_side

SkepticOne wrote: »

And elect who?

dont think it will really matter... whoever gets in will just take orders over the phone from Brussels, and implement them as diplomatically as they can here. We sold our soveirgnty, and got an enormous unpayable debt in return... we are now owned.

ei.sdraob

feicim wrote: »

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

Yes they have, but they could be doing much worse

just see the rates across the irish sea and the border, even with lower cost of living accounted for our welfare is still more generous

some people might realise this and not rock the boat sort of speak

Idbatterim

I think there havent been drastic reactions, because nothing drastic has happened yet, cuts wise atleast. Alot of the people involved in constructions and trades can easily emigrate, an electrician mate, left a few weeks ago for new Zealand and had a job within a day of arriving, on a 6 month project. Also as has been mentioned everything is happening so slowly, they cut, then to an extent we calm down, before the cuts are announced again i.e December. Id day there will be serious reactions if the EU or IMF come in and make serious cuts. Then again, I hope all the anger is placed directly at the goverment and the likes of Ahern! it wont be anyones fault but our own and the political parties! there has to be a consequence to us pricing ourselves of of the market and expecting no repecussions down the line...

gurramok

Plus alot of people who have jobs cannot listen to Joe Duffy on work time!

A factor staying away from protests would be the fear they would get out of hand(hijacked by violent elements) and if their employer finds out about them getting arrested even for a minor public order offence, it would be too much to lose.:(

johnnyskeleton

largepants wrote: »

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

Quick question for you though - if you knew that FG and Labour were promsing to cut your wages more than FF are currently promising e.g. they say they will take 10% off in 2011 while FF are saying there will just be no increases, and if an election was called tomorrow, who would you vote for?

Honestly, would you vote for anyone but FF because of what they have done, even if it means a pay cut, or would you vote for whatever suits you best i.e. no paycut FF deal?

If you would vote for FG/Lab then maybe there is some hope for the country, but sadly I feel that most would not vote that way and most will vote for whoever promises them personally the least amount of cuts. Not that there is anything wrong about that - you vote for whoever you want - but it is bad for the country that this is how people vote, and that the traditional parties don't actually stand for any real policies etc.

johnnyskeleton

mickeyk wrote: »

The only people with any real reason to cause a scene are the newly unemployed, they came mostly from construction, and are young men mainly.

Pinsters did it:
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13739

The coverage of that protest was just a blip, but 2 years later and it has been almost universally accepted that the government guarantee was wrong.

However, subsequent protests were not as successful as they became merged with the don't cut our jobs, don't cut our services, don't cut our dole, don't lets be capitalist groups and eventually became one indistinguishable blur.

The_Honeybadger

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you would vote for FG/Lab then maybe there is some hope for the country, but sadly I feel that most would not vote that way and most will vote for whoever promises them personally the least amount of cuts. Not that there is anything wrong about that - you vote for whoever you want - but it is bad for the country that this is how people vote, and that the traditional parties don't actually stand for any real policies etc.

The last election was an auction, many independent commentators stated that both Fine Fail's and Fine Gaels manifestos were works of fiction, and that there was no way they could be paid for. Like you ask, would people vote for a straight talking, straight shooting party who will tell it like it is? Very doubtful, this is why Labour will make up part of the next government, and why we will never sort out our problems on our own.

Joshua Jones

largepants wrote: »

Without wanting to sound stupid I honestly wouldn't know where to start. Would the likes of facebook be any good to try and do something like this. As mentioned I wouldn't be hugely into politics but they are making fools of us.Tis only on the Sundays papers that we had an extremely happy Cowen posing with an even happier Johnny Ronan. And Ronan wasn't wearing cheap demins with a Heatons shirt on either. It's a joke.

I had an idea awhile back and after seeing your post I thought I'd set it up. The idea is for, what I call it, a Stick it to the man day. I've set up a group on facebook so please join if you think its something you could do. In essence if we all come together under one idea then we can show the powers that be and most importantly ourselves that we can be united. If we can come together then we can achieve anything. United we stand, divided we fall.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=108826132511741&ref=mf

Please feel free to join and if you like the idea then send it on.

bbam

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

That's the solution... burn some innocent bank employees as well why don't we

Roits and ripping the sh1t out of our country isn't the solution. What would it acheive, the answer to our problem isn't political change, swapping one bunch of twats for another bunch of muppits will acheive nothing..
the reason FG have no dirty laundry is they were so unpopular and incapable they were kept out of government for so long... don't be fooled if they had been in government or higher positions they would have skeletons in the closet too.

SkepticOne

bbam wrote: »

That's the solution... burn some innocent bank employees as well why don't we

Roits and ripping the sh1t out of our country isn't the solution. What would it acheive, the answer to our problem isn't political change, swapping one bunch of twats for another bunch of muppits will acheive nothing..
the reason FG have no dirty laundry is they were so unpopular and incapable they were kept out of government for so long... don't be fooled if they had been in government or higher positions they would have skeletons in the closet too.

So protesting won't make any difference and neither will voting. What is the solution you propose?

largepants

bbam wrote: »

That's the solution... burn some innocent bank employees as well why don't we

Roits and ripping the sh1t out of our country isn't the solution. What would it acheive, the answer to our problem isn't political change, swapping one bunch of twats for another bunch of muppits will acheive nothing..
the reason FG have no dirty laundry is they were so unpopular and incapable they were kept out of government for so long... don't be fooled if they had been in government or higher positions they would have skeletons in the closet too.

Thats not what I meant by my 'the Greeks were right' statement. I'm not advocating violence. I'm merely saying that they were probably right when they had signs when they demonstrated saying they weren't Irish.

I've been fooled long enough by these idiots in Government. I'll not be fooled any longer.

RichardAnd

Joshua Jones wrote: »

I had an idea awhile back and after seeing your post I thought I'd set it up. The idea is for, what I call it, a Stick it to the man day. I've set up a group on facebook so please join if you think its something you could do. In essence if we all come together under one idea then we can show the powers that be and most importantly ourselves that we can be united. If we can come together then we can achieve anything. United we stand, divided we fall.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=108826132511741&ref=mf

Please feel free to join and if you like the idea then send it on.

Whilst I admire anyone for doing something they believe in (within reason), you idea is a foolish one. Despite that fact that no one will hold to it, if you did manage to cause a stay on spending for a day you would achieve nothing more than confound the problems of businesses trying to stay open. Your comment about public houses is absurd, what about those people who work for them?

And finally, where are you going to get the drink and stuff for the parties we will all be having in lieu of spending? From a shop the day before perhaps?

Joshua Jones

RichardAnd wrote: »

Whilst I admire anyone for doing something they believe in (within reason), you idea is a foolish one. Despite that fact that no one will hold to it, if you did manage to cause a stay on spending for a day you would achieve nothing more than confound the problems of businesses trying to stay open. Your comment about public houses is absurd, what about those people who work for them?

The whole premise is to get people together. If we all could unite under one idea and show some solidarity then there's no end to what can be achieved. United we stand, divided we fall. We all need something that we can believe in, something that will bring us all together.

And finally, where are you going to get the drink and stuff for the parties we will all be having in lieu of spending? From a shop the day before perhaps?

Of course. It's a peaceful demostration to show that there are plenty who feel that this cabal, sorry government, sorry vested intrests are not going to get away with it anymore. They say money is power, lets see.

johnnyskeleton

Joshua Jones wrote: »

If we all could unite under one idea and show some solidarity then there's no end to what can be achieved.

Umm, yes there is. We can't magic the national debt away, or magic up a new solvent banking system out of the old one. These things are not going to be resolved by us all having a big party. Besides, the 30th is a work day, why not pick a saturday instead? You'll not deny people a well earned pint after a hard day's work will you?

Joshua Jones wrote: »

Of course. It's a peaceful demostration to show that there are plenty who feel that this cabal, sorry government, sorry vested intrests are not going to get away with it anymore. They say money is power, lets see.

A much better thing to do would be to take all the money that you would have spent, everyone stay at home not drinking, and use the money to fund a new politicial party etc.

Joshua Jones

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Umm, yes there is. We can't magic the national debt away, or magic up a new solvent banking system out of the old one. These things are not going to be resolved by us all having a big party. Besides, the 30th is a work day, why not pick a saturday instead? You'll not deny people a well earned pint after a hard day's work will you?

30th of October is a Saturday, shall I sign you up so lol. But seriously, I wouldn't deny anyone anything, especially the hard working folks of this great country. All I'm saying is that if people feel like I do, that we have been sold down the swaney by banks, corporations etc then the only thing they'll take notice of is us not giving them our money, or unit of energy as I like to call it.

Also the national debt etc could easily be magic-ed away, but thats for another day lol, maybe st stephens day, leave it with me lol.

A much better thing to do would be to take all the money that you would have spent, everyone stay at home not drinking, and use the money to fund a new politicial party etc.

You start it up buddy and I'll back you 100%, I mean that.

Zynks

I think there is no chance in hell that anyone will manage to drive any kind of protest/change/coup/revolution (pick as you wish) in this country. The main reasons for this guaranteed failure are:
- Irish people got lazy
- They experienced an illusionary wealth, and now think they are too good to be part of a 'people's movement'
- The government has been very clever by promoting a divide between public and private sectors that distracted everyone. That has now been replaced by getting people to point fingers at the Greens... we did learn something from the brits about divide and conquer!
- The are no real good (better maybe, but not good enough) options for a new government
- The current political system is crap and designed to dilute the entire decision making process, so anyone with balls is auto-castrated
- People probably realise that things are soooo f*cked up that it is too late to try to fix it. We are going insolvent, and that's it
- There is an absolute lack of leadership anywhere - the ones with any decent IQ level are leaving
- People are too busy playing on the interweb and following the soaps on tv
- The vacuum in power and the level of uncertainty helps build the illusion that maybe, just maybe, if we keep quiet the bad stuff will go away
- There is very little social consciousness in this country
- If I have a job I'll keep my head down and I may be able to keep it, if I loose my job I better not complain since at least I am being looked after


To get out of this mess, we either go to Germany/France/US and ask them to adopt us - as in please run the country and economy for us

OR

In the next elections we vote for someone who's campaign is solely based on the proposal to enter government to do the following:

- Pursue to the full extent of the law punishment for corruption, malpractice, cronysm (sp),
- Full review and open reporting of the financial position of the nations finances and a serious independent assessment of the options going forward (if we want to have any credibility abroad, this has to be done)
- Removal of any government guarantee for past deals between investors/bond holders and private institutions
- call a referendum for a replacement of the current government system with presidentialism, where the president will have a cabinet formed by non-political subject experts
- Find a way to make TDs loose jurisdiction over local issues - like potholes and pub openings, and to have national issues only in their agenda - councillors to be solely responsible for local issues (not sure if this can be implemented easily, but public support would help)
- Senate to either be closed or have a veto power on the Dail, but all members to be directly elected
- President position to be either finished or the president to play a serious role - If we need a queen we could just ask the UK to takes us back

This would then be followed by new elections.

Just for reference, if this is the kind of new start you would like to see, click the Thumbs up button below.

Zynks

Let's turn this into a public opinion. If you disagree with my post above, click the thumbs up button for this post.

The_Honeybadger

Agree with most of what you say zyncs, but where are these new honest and honourable politicians, who put the country before themselves going to come from? I would vote for that party in a heartbeat, as would most people I would think.

dan_d

Well with any luck they might be a few of the people around Boards who are constantly told there's no point in trying to organise any kind of a group protest, because it's a waste of time, it's stupid, it'll be hijacked, etc, etc....
Among others.I'd happily go into politics, but I won't - because people just won't want to hear what I have to say. It's that simple.

Zynks

mickeyk wrote: »

Agree with most of what you say zyncs, but where are these new honest and honourable politicians, who put the country before themselves going to come from? I would vote for that party in a heartbeat, as would most people I would think.

I am assuming that many honest and honorable people would be put off by the prospect of joining the current political environment and being 'assimilated'. However, if there was a serious push for reform in a movement disconnected from the political establishment, maybe these individuals would consider sticking their neck out at least to help drive this reform.

ROS123

Is one from of protest at least to wipe out the man protagonists in this whole sorry mess we are in, namely Fianna Fail. If we could at least through the next election punish the party that caused most of the mess, by decimating them, would that not at least be a message to the rest of them, that they can't get away with the level of mistakes that FF have made.

Having said that I dont hold out much hope, min 25% base plus those wo will vote thme back in if they think they will be a euro better off a week under FF.

maninasia

largepants wrote: »

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

Fair enough, individually you have your own views, but there is nothing in it for the average public servant to go and protest or change the government, because I think they know well any change is likely going to be negative for them. The end result is the same, large sections of the population are still doing very well for themselves- pensioners/long term social welfare recipients/public workers (compared to other rich countries let alone comparing ourselves to the PIGS where we rightfully belong), while some such as the young and the less educated but hard working folks are basically forced out of the country as there is no willingness to increase competitiveness overall which would damage FF core vote (the other parties hardly show a difference though, none have said how they will make solid spending cuts or talked clearly about the need to raise taxes). Labour looks possibly worse than FF!

PS workers made noises about the Croke Park deal but none of them were seriously opposed and now I think they are praying it's going to hold together. Many families have PS workers in Ireland, Irish people are not the type to bring these topics into the open too much as it tends to create division.

The other reasons people don't do anything, apathy, escape valve of emigration, a resignedness to the 'sure they are all the same', the young and hard working types are not the ones experienced in organising protests (compared to unionised and older workers/retirees). Finally Irish people in general are a bit soft, well padded stomaches and fairly comfortable lives in the main are what they care about like most others, Irish society has it's good and bad points.

maninasia

mickeyk wrote: »

Agree with most of what you say zyncs, but where are these new honest and honourable politicians, who put the country before themselves going to come from? I would vote for that party in a heartbeat, as would most people I would think.

You would, maybe a sizeable minority would, but I'm not sure if the majority would. Because you have to tell them that they risked losing their guaranteed jobs, reducing their pensions, cutting back on their dole and entitlements, increased income taxes. This is going to happen anyway but can you see Irish people voting for this explicitly? The effort is worth maybe for holding the swing vote and therefore influencing government policy, FF/FG/Labour would like that as they could blame your honest party for all the difficult decisions.

I admire the American system because they have to lay out their policy clearly and then the politicians votes are scrutinised to see if he has changed tack over his views over the years. They genuinely have different policies that people can vote on. In Ireland that's not the case, every party seems to think they can get the economy going without cutting public jobs/salaries/entitlements or significantly raising taxes. Even if they do have some plan to do this the electorate doesn't want to know about it until after the election. There's a problem of maturity with the average voter and it seems everybody is socialist in Ireland, even many of the large capitalists (because they got their debts covered by the government).

That adds up to a lot of people. Then there's another bunch that fear change.

Mister men

We are a country of cowards and the truth is we don't give a hoot what happens to our fellow country men. I'm alright jack attitude.

Mister men

Zynks wrote: »

I think there is no chance in hell that anyone will manage to drive any kind of protest/change/coup/revolution (pick as you wish) in this country. The main reasons for this guaranteed failure are:
- Irish people got lazy
- They experienced an illusionary wealth, and now think they are too good to be part of a 'people's movement'
- The government has been very clever by promoting a divide between public and private sectors that distracted everyone. That has now been replaced by getting people to point fingers at the Greens... we did learn something from the brits about divide and conquer!
- The are no real good (better maybe, but not good enough) options for a new government
- The current political system is crap and designed to dilute the entire decision making process, so anyone with balls is auto-castrated
- People probably realise that things are soooo f*cked up that it is too late to try to fix it. We are going insolvent, and that's it
- There is an absolute lack of leadership anywhere - the ones with any decent IQ level are leaving
- People are too busy playing on the interweb and following the soaps on tv
- The vacuum in power and the level of uncertainty helps build the illusion that maybe, just maybe, if we keep quiet the bad stuff will go away
- There is very little social consciousness in this country
- If I have a job I'll keep my head down and I may be able to keep it, if I loose my job I better not complain since at least I am being looked after


To get out of this mess, we either go to Germany/France/US and ask them to adopt us - as in please run the country and economy for us

OR

In the next elections we vote for someone who's campaign is solely based on the proposal to enter government to do the following:

- Pursue to the full extent of the law punishment for corruption, malpractice, cronysm (sp),
- Full review and open reporting of the financial position of the nations finances and a serious independent assessment of the options going forward (if we want to have any credibility abroad, this has to be done)
- Removal of any government guarantee for past deals between investors/bond holders and private institutions
- call a referendum for a replacement of the current government system with presidentialism, where the president will have a cabinet formed by non-political subject experts
- Find a way to make TDs loose jurisdiction over local issues - like potholes and pub openings, and to have national issues only in their agenda - councillors to be solely responsible for local issues (not sure if this can be implemented easily, but public support would help)
- Senate to either be closed or have a veto power on the Dail, but all members to be directly elected
- President position to be either finished or the president to play a serious role - If we need a queen we could just ask the UK to takes us back

This would then be followed by new elections.

Just for reference, if this is the kind of new start you would like to see, click the Thumbs up button below.

Excellent post. I said it years ago "Give the people premiership football and X-Factor and they will forget about the important things in life.

Zynks

maninasia wrote: »

You would, maybe a sizeable minority would, but I'm not sure if the majority would. Because you have to tell them that they risked losing their guaranteed jobs, reducing their pensions, cutting back on their dole and entitlements, increased income taxes. This is going to happen anyway but can you see Irish people voting for this explicitly? The effort is worth maybe for holding the swing vote and therefore influencing government policy, FF/FG/Labour would like that as they could blame your honest party for all the difficult decisions.

It all depends on how you put it to the people. It actually boils down to a very simple question: do you want to know the truth?

TheDoc

largepants wrote: »

I'm not hugely into politics but I'm amazed by Berite Ahern on last nights tv programme. But what amazing me more is why as the people of this nation we are not rebelling against our government. Why are we not demanding action be taken against some of our banker, developers and politicians?No this is not another online rant. I'm very serious. They are making fools of the whole lot of us and we're all standing back and letting them do it.How are these things organised? Something has to be done.

Well there are a number of reasons perhaps to why we arn't in rebellion

This isn't the middle ages. And we are not some backwater third world state. Do you mean up in arms and revolt kinda thing? If so, I'm pretty sure you can guess as to why that might not be the best/good idea, and why it would fall flat on its face.

Outside of that we operate a democracy. We elected the people in power originally and pledged our faith in them. To oust that power and replace it there needs to be a new election which will probably come in the following months by the sounds of things.

Then we have another chance to vote in someone who we believe will do better.

Unfortunately the irish people are so easily turned and twisted into voting. I'm not sure on what the ratio is, but by the way Labour and F.G lick the arses of the lower class, I'd assume they are the majority of voters along with the lower middle class.

Unfortunately I don't see anyone doing any better. The opposing parties don't really give a ****, they rub their hands when nationally things get worse, as its more ammunition to open fire with. I have not heard one good idea or solution come from either camp. All I've heard is is the lower class is getting rapped and we need to tax the higher bracket. As an individual with aspirations to hopefully get into that higher bracket through working hard and further educating myself, what I'm reading is

"No no, **** educating yourself and becoming part of a smart economy, join a trade, get cash in hand, and when things go sour **** it you'll be looked after".

Zynks

'They' will be happy to know that you are volunteering to pay for the huge debts that they continue to build in our names as we speak - not that we will have an option, but don't you feel uncomfortable with the level of debt that the country is being committed to, and the (lack of) ethics behind the whole thing?

What really scares me is that what is holding everything together is the party whip policy, where the TD representing you cannot disagree or question this economical harakiri.

There is a guy backed by just 19.102 votes running this country, and the party policies mean there can be no dissent, no matter how bad the decision are. Is this really democracy?