Why are we not doing something?

largepants

I'm not hugely into politics but I'm amazed by Berite Ahern on last nights tv programme. But what amazing me more is why as the people of this nation we are not rebelling against our government. Why are we not demanding action be taken against some of our banker, developers and politicians?No this is not another online rant. I'm very serious. They are making fools of the whole lot of us and we're all standing back and letting them do it.How are these things organised? Something has to be done.

ei.sdraob

see this excellent article few days ago

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-must-discard-futile-delay-and-pray-strategy-2334554.html

What is clear is that the Irish people are in an abusive relationship with their political and protected elite of kingmakers. They can't worry about the nation when they spend all their time worrying about self-preservation. So many people rely on the current corrupt system staying in place that they refuse to see what is happening, as they have their vested interests to protect. Ireland needs to put itself on emergency footing, but those in positions to influence the future of the nation have gone missing in action -- not only our politicians but the entire media seems to have taken the summer off.

that would answer the "why?" in your post

dan_d

I agree, but to be honest, you're posting in the wrong place to find anyone to support you.

The thread will just evolve into a row about how FF weren't really bad, they just did what they had to do, and how they're better/worse than anything else out there (take your pick)

That's after everyone has given you a reason why they personally can't be involved in any kind of public outcry, ranging from being too busy to "not my problem".

I'm quite a positive person usually, and I'm not in the habit of endlessly criticising other posters, but there's just no point in looking for action around here. The majority of people who post here won't budge.They'll have lots of reasons as to why they won't budge, but the bottom line is that they just won't. I'm afraid you'll have to look elsewhere....I'm trying to....

largepants

ei.sdraob wrote: »

see this excellent article few days ago

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/we-must-discard-futile-delay-and-pray-strategy-2334554.html



that would answer the "why?" in your post

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

Cookie_Monster

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen?

why are you?
Thats what you really need to ask. If you, yourself do something maybe others will follow...

largepants

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

as i highlighted

while some people have it failry bad, the majority dont

to give an example:
* if you are an OAP you are now getting more money than ever before and deflation is helping things some more
* if you are on welfare you are getting 3x more than north of the border, you might not want to rock the boat...
* if you are public servant you were bought off until 2014 with promises of no more cuts and still have a job paying on average 30% more than private sector and security

to summarize FF have bought off many important groups that might riot with borrowed money, money that these very same people will have to pay back directly and indirectly over next decade

the self preservation drive of the FF group is leading this country into a hole as they "buy off" other key groups, typical of their strategy over last decade

scargill

this is why!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YawagQ6lLrA

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

Alot of people dont want to protest and riot since these protests usually tend to attract some nutcases who like to cause trouble and hijack demonstrations.

largepants

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why are you?
Thats what you really need to ask. If you, yourself do something maybe others will follow...

Without wanting to sound stupid I honestly wouldn't know where to start. Would the likes of facebook be any good to try and do something like this. As mentioned I wouldn't be hugely into politics but they are making fools of us.Tis only on the Sundays papers that we had an extremely happy Cowen posing with an even happier Johnny Ronan. And Ronan wasn't wearing cheap demins with a Heatons shirt on either. It's a joke.

largepants

ei.sdraob wrote: »

as i highlighted

while some people have it failry bad, the majority dont

to give an example:
* if you are an OAP you are now getting more money than ever before and deflation is helping things some more
* if you are on welfare you are getting 3x more than north of the border, you might not want to rock the boat...
* if you are public servant you were bought off until 2014 with promises of no more cuts and still have a job paying on average 30% more than private sector and security

to summarize FF have bought off many important groups that might riot with borrowed money, money that these very same people will have to pay back directly and indirectly over next decade

the self preservation drive of the FF group is leading this country into a hole as they "buy off" other key groups, typical of their strategy over last decade

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

danbohan

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

for years the irish have done most of their rebelling propped up to a bar counter , now they are doing most of it on places like boards etc , all very safe and cosy .our politicial masters know this very well too and can get away with downright theft from the irish people knowing that we will grumble and moan but thats it . at this stage it should be unsafe for clowen and co to leave the bunker let alone have a '' think in '' in galway . but as always in the past we will acept it . we will just change the goverment which really only means giving another group of useless no hopers a chance to rob us further while the ambitious and the talented quietly head to the exit doors if they can find enough places to exit too

The_Honeybadger

ei.sdraob's post have hit the nail on the head, we had a similar thread not long ago. There are people who are finding the going very tough, but the majority of people are still fine, and will happily go along with the status quo while it ensures they are ok. The only people with any real reason to cause a scene are the newly unemployed, they came mostly from construction, and are young men mainly. Most of them would have little understanding of our economic woes, apart from the fact that they have cost them a job, and most wouldn't have particularly strong political views one way or the other, they have neither the will nor the organization to protest en masse. If we saw a Greek style crisis where deep and really painful cuts had to be made across the board, I'm talking about 20-30% cuts in dole & PS pay & redundancies, then we would see people in the streets. Bottom line, as incredible as this seems, the recession hasn't hurt enough people badly enough yet to see mass protests, but the way we are going that is only a matter of time.

ei.sdraob

largepants wrote: »

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

Dont worry i do not wish to turn it into one either

What I did was provide examples of groups which are not doing too badly in a country that's bankrupt, due to FF being able to borrow crazy amounts that we have no chance of repaying at higher and higher rates

Dirk Gently

largepants wrote: »

Thats fair enough. But why are we standing back and continually letting it happen? The Greeks were right - we're a crowd of bloody wimps and should be ashamed of ourselves.

We always have been tbh. Irish people are traditionally docile to those in power. Don't believe the fighting Irish myth. Whether it was church dominance or wink and nod business and political culture, the ordinary people are detached and subservient to whomever the masters of the day are. It's always been that way. There simply isn't a social consciousness in this state like there is in Greece or France or most other western countries.

feicim

ei.sdraob wrote: »

..
What I did was provide examples of groups which are not doing too badly in a country that's bankrupt, ...

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

If you mean that in the sense that they aren't starving to death or living in a cardboard box under a bridge then yes they aren't doing too bad. There are a lot of recently unemployed having to deal with huge income drops and combined with the prospect of no jobs for the fore-seeable future and the prospect of no improvement in their massively reduced standard of living, losing their home plus all the the family/mental health problems that can arise from such worries. Ever hear of the poverty trap? Look it up.

I'm not convinced the recently unemployed casualties of the celtic tiger should be put in the same "group thats not doing to badly" bracket as pensioners and the public service who still have well paying jobs.

I'm just glad you are not a politician, because the country would actually be in a worse mess with robots people like you in charge.

dan_d

largepants wrote: »

Thats fiar enough dan d but where do I look?Usually I couldn't be @rsed about demonstrators and frankly I think a lot of them are muppets. But something HAS to be done to let those tools in Leinster House know that we're not to be taken lightly anymore. The only reason they make us out to be stupid is that they know we'll just sit back and take it. Shame on us.

Well, I should have amended my last point to say there aren't too many places to look, because people just aren't interested. It's easier to ring Joe Duffy and complain, than to go out and participate. It's definitely easier if it means that you might be interested in the good of the country, rather than the good of your local street/village/GAA club. It's how we do business around here.

I hear your point op, don't get me wrong. And I agree wholeheartedly. But it's an argument I have tried to have many, many times around here and it just goes nowhere.

the_syco

feicim wrote: »

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

A drop, yes. But they still have some sort of income.

If all the people on this thread who thinks someone should do more PM'ed each other, and got a few people affected to come along, and protested somewhere in Dublin, nearby government offices, after some media were tipped off, you'd get more people joining your "cause". You'd probably have a few socialists join you, to assist your campaign against the capitalist state which caused all of your woes.

But it's easier to follow than to lead, so lets just b|tch about the lack of rebellion leaders on boards.ie instead of actually doing something about it... :rolleyes:

SkepticOne

The reason people aren't out on the streets is that things are being dragged out over a very long period. Problems are being stored up rather than dealt with.

Comparisons have been made with Iceland. The Icelanders are very undemonstrative but because their events were sudden, they were out on the street.

Personally I think the key thing is that the governing parties need to be punished electorally not just in the next election (which I think they have more or less accepted that they will lose) but more importantly in the one after that. If we bring them back in after one term in opposition then it no amount of marching in the street will be of any importance.

Count Dooku

SkepticOne wrote: »

Personally I think the key thing is that the governing parties need to be punished electorally not just in the next election (which I think they have more or less accepted that they will lose) but more importantly in the one after that. If we bring them back in after one term in opposition then it no amount of marching in the street will be of any importance.

Why only governing parties?
Opposition must be punished as well and main goal on next election must be to get rid of all present political establishment.

gurramok

Why are the opposition parties not organising daily demo's? They could lead the disgruntled by example.

SkepticOne

Count Dooku wrote: »

Why only governing parties?
Opposition must be punished as well and main goal on next election must be to get rid of all present political establishment.

And elect who?

SkepticOne

gurramok wrote: »

Why are the opposition parties not organising daily demo's? They could lead the disgruntled by example.

Because they know (bar some huge scandal) that they are going to win the next election. Any disgruntlement they stir up will continue into their term of office. It is not as if the economic problems will be solved in the next few years.

the_dark_side

SkepticOne wrote: »

And elect who?

dont think it will really matter... whoever gets in will just take orders over the phone from Brussels, and implement them as diplomatically as they can here. We sold our soveirgnty, and got an enormous unpayable debt in return... we are now owned.

ei.sdraob

feicim wrote: »

I'm not sure how you consider the unemployed as a group thats "not doing too badly"... they have taken a huge drop in income.

Yes they have, but they could be doing much worse

just see the rates across the irish sea and the border, even with lower cost of living accounted for our welfare is still more generous

some people might realise this and not rock the boat sort of speak

Idbatterim

I think there havent been drastic reactions, because nothing drastic has happened yet, cuts wise atleast. Alot of the people involved in constructions and trades can easily emigrate, an electrician mate, left a few weeks ago for new Zealand and had a job within a day of arriving, on a 6 month project. Also as has been mentioned everything is happening so slowly, they cut, then to an extent we calm down, before the cuts are announced again i.e December. Id day there will be serious reactions if the EU or IMF come in and make serious cuts. Then again, I hope all the anger is placed directly at the goverment and the likes of Ahern! it wont be anyones fault but our own and the political parties! there has to be a consequence to us pricing ourselves of of the market and expecting no repecussions down the line...

gurramok

Plus alot of people who have jobs cannot listen to Joe Duffy on work time!

A factor staying away from protests would be the fear they would get out of hand(hijacked by violent elements) and if their employer finds out about them getting arrested even for a minor public order offence, it would be too much to lose.:(

johnnyskeleton

largepants wrote: »

I am a public servant but being honest I don't wish this post to be turned into another anti public servant rant. This is about FF and how incompetent this government has become.I havn;t been bought off as you say. All people should get together and make their voice count no matter what their backgroung, creed, job status or race.

Quick question for you though - if you knew that FG and Labour were promsing to cut your wages more than FF are currently promising e.g. they say they will take 10% off in 2011 while FF are saying there will just be no increases, and if an election was called tomorrow, who would you vote for?

Honestly, would you vote for anyone but FF because of what they have done, even if it means a pay cut, or would you vote for whatever suits you best i.e. no paycut FF deal?

If you would vote for FG/Lab then maybe there is some hope for the country, but sadly I feel that most would not vote that way and most will vote for whoever promises them personally the least amount of cuts. Not that there is anything wrong about that - you vote for whoever you want - but it is bad for the country that this is how people vote, and that the traditional parties don't actually stand for any real policies etc.

johnnyskeleton

mickeyk wrote: »

The only people with any real reason to cause a scene are the newly unemployed, they came mostly from construction, and are young men mainly.

Pinsters did it:
http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13739

The coverage of that protest was just a blip, but 2 years later and it has been almost universally accepted that the government guarantee was wrong.

However, subsequent protests were not as successful as they became merged with the don't cut our jobs, don't cut our services, don't cut our dole, don't lets be capitalist groups and eventually became one indistinguishable blur.

The_Honeybadger

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

If you would vote for FG/Lab then maybe there is some hope for the country, but sadly I feel that most would not vote that way and most will vote for whoever promises them personally the least amount of cuts. Not that there is anything wrong about that - you vote for whoever you want - but it is bad for the country that this is how people vote, and that the traditional parties don't actually stand for any real policies etc.

The last election was an auction, many independent commentators stated that both Fine Fail's and Fine Gaels manifestos were works of fiction, and that there was no way they could be paid for. Like you ask, would people vote for a straight talking, straight shooting party who will tell it like it is? Very doubtful, this is why Labour will make up part of the next government, and why we will never sort out our problems on our own.

Joshua Jones

largepants wrote: »

Without wanting to sound stupid I honestly wouldn't know where to start. Would the likes of facebook be any good to try and do something like this. As mentioned I wouldn't be hugely into politics but they are making fools of us.Tis only on the Sundays papers that we had an extremely happy Cowen posing with an even happier Johnny Ronan. And Ronan wasn't wearing cheap demins with a Heatons shirt on either. It's a joke.

I had an idea awhile back and after seeing your post I thought I'd set it up. The idea is for, what I call it, a Stick it to the man day. I've set up a group on facebook so please join if you think its something you could do. In essence if we all come together under one idea then we can show the powers that be and most importantly ourselves that we can be united. If we can come together then we can achieve anything. United we stand, divided we fall.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/group.php?gid=108826132511741&ref=mf

Please feel free to join and if you like the idea then send it on.