Fidel Castro admits Cuban communism doesn't work anymore

mike65 · 09-09-2010 5:27pm #1

article

An almost off the cuff remark by the one time scourge of the USA but not one I was expecting. I guess when you are near the end and no longer in power one has the latitude to speak freely.

No doubt under Raul there will be a push to open Cuba up and get in the investment the country desperately needs which in turn should force Washington DC to get real. Cuba is no more a threat than I am.

Wolfe Tone · 09-09-2010 5:37pm

Communism in one country never does.

ei.sdraob · 09-09-2010 5:40pm

It must be a cold day in hell :P

Sergeant · 09-09-2010 5:41pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

Communism in one country never does.

Has there been any examples where it worked with more than one country?

Wolfe Tone · 09-09-2010 5:44pm

Sergeant wrote: »

Has there been any examples where it worked with more than one country?

I meant never will.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 5:45pm

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I meant never will.

It's actually never been tried.

Wolfe Tone · 09-09-2010 5:47pm

karma_ wrote: »

It's actually never been tried.

Pure communism? Never got past the socialist stage has it?

Permabear · 09-09-2010 5:47pm

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karma_ · 09-09-2010 5:51pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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If only the US hadn't sanctioned them they need not have had to.

evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 5:55pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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You really think that had it not been for Castro the people of Cuba would have lived long affluent lives? Just like the rest of South America yeah?

If the right gave two sh*ts about the Cuban people they would've opposed the US embargo.

Permabear · 09-09-2010 5:57pm

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karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:04pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why then were they not given a chance?

BlaasForRafa · 09-09-2010 6:13pm

mike65 wrote: »

article

An almost off the cuff remark by the one time scourge of the USA but not one I was expecting. I guess when you are near the end and no longer in power one has the latitude to speak freely.

No doubt under Raul there will be a push to open Cuba up and get in the investment the country desperately needs which in turn should force Washington DC to get real. Cuba is no more a threat than I am.

Castro also came to the defence of Israel which was a bit unexpected http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/08/fidel-castro-criticises-mahmoud-ahmedinejad

Sergeant · 09-09-2010 6:15pm

karma_ wrote: »

Why then were they not given a chance?

They were. For the past 48 years they have been the subject of an embargo from the United States. They are free to trade with almost every other country on earth. Since the massive flow of subsidies from the USSR dried up, the country has stagnated.

The country is ruled by a totalitarian elite. Human rights abuses are numerous. It is naive to blame all of the ills of the Cuban people on the USA. Blame the leadership who crush the rights of the Cuban people, blame a failed political system and ideology.

It ain't a small country putting it up to Uncle Sam, it is a dictatorship.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:16pm

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Castro also came to the defence of Israel which was a bit unexpected http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/08/fidel-castro-criticises-mahmoud-ahmedinejad

I don't see this is unexpected? Like I said in another post, Jewish people have long been entwined in Left-wing politics. Left-wing politics is at its roots is about equality and fairness for all.

Valmont · 09-09-2010 6:20pm

I wouldn't have said that Cuban communism has failed, it gives the impression that communism worked somewhere else. Oh wait, all of those other communist countries weren't 'proper' communist regimes because communism is awesome and...

Just thought I'd get that argument out of the way early.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:22pm

Sergeant wrote: »

They were. For the past 48 years they have been the subject of an embargo from the United States. They are free to trade with almost every other country on earth. Since the massive flow of subsidies from the USSR dried up, the country has stagnated.

The country is ruled by a totalitarian elite. Human rights abuses are numerous. It is naive to blame all of the ills of the Cuban people on the USA. Blame the leadership who crush the rights of the Cuban people, blame a failed political system and ideology.

It ain't a small country putting it up to Uncle Sam, it is a dictatorship.

What you actually mean is that it's a dictatorship that the US didn't approve of because of its paranoia of left-wing politics. The US only support right-wing dictators and have never shirked from overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing dictators instead when it suited them.

Valmont · 09-09-2010 6:23pm

karma_ wrote: »

Left-wing politics is at its roots is about equality and fairness for all.

Yum, that sounds all fluffy and equitable. Tell me, when fairness and equality have been achieved in this social democratic society, how do you decide who collects the bins?

fontanalis · 09-09-2010 6:24pm

karma_ wrote: »

If only the US hadn't sanctioned them they need not have had to.

If communism worked they wouldn't need the US, but I agree that the embargo is ridiculous as China is basically an ATM for the US and with their ties to Saudi Arabia they can stoop no lower.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:26pm

karma_ wrote: »

What you actually mean is that it's a dictatorship that the US didn't approve of because of its paranoia of left-wing politics. The US only support right-wing dictators and have never shirked from overthrowing democratically elected governments and installing dictators instead when it suited them.

But it's still a dictatorship. And not because of the US. As you admit. So what exactly is your point?

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:27pm

Valmont wrote: »

Yum, that sounds all fluffy and equitable. Tell me, when fairness and equality have been achieved in this social democratic society, how do you decide who collects the bins?

Is that the best argument against left-wing policies there is?

fontanalis · 09-09-2010 6:28pm

karma_ wrote: »

Is that the best argument against left-wing policies there is?

I think Cuba is a good arguement against it though.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:29pm

Einhard wrote: »

But it's still a dictatorship. And not because of the US. As you admit. So what exactly is your point?

I would favour letting Cuba be the architect of it's own destiny. Should the Cuban people want change it is up to them to force that change, free from outside interference.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:31pm

karma_ wrote: »

Is that the best argument against left-wing policies there is?

It's not exactly a good argument, but then neither is blaming Cuban totalitarianism and economic malaise on the US. But better that then blaming the people who actually ran the place with an iron fist over the past few decades eh?

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:32pm

karma_ wrote: »

I would favour letting Cuba be the architect of it's own destiny. Should the Cuban people want change it is up to them to force that change, free from outside interference.

Kind of hard to be the architect for anything really when you're arrested, imprisoned and maltreated for even picking up the tools of change.

fontanalis · 09-09-2010 6:34pm

karma_ wrote: »

I would favour letting Cuba be the architect of it's own destiny. Should the Cuban people want change it is up to them to force that change, free from outside interference.

But Castro and his brother are the architect!

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:34pm

Einhard wrote: »

It's not exactly a good argument, but then neither is blaming Cuban totalitarianism and economic malaise on the US. But better that then blaming the people who actually ran the place with an iron fist over the past few decades eh?

Of course you can't place the blame entirely on the US sanctions, but being denied access to a powerful and rich trading partner that close cannot have helped. If teh US actually thought it would not work, why fear it? Why not let not just let it fail?

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:38pm

karma_ wrote: »

Of course you can't place the blame entirely on the US sanctions, but being denied access to a powerful and rich trading partner that close cannot have helped. If teh US actually thought it would not work, why fear it? Why not let not just let it fail?

Well the US is free to impose anctions on whomever it wishes. You might legitimately disagree with the sanctions, but they really shouldn't be used to excuse dictatorship and tyranny, which seems to be a reflexive reaction of many left wingers. And I don't use that phrase in a pejorative manner.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:40pm

Einhard wrote: »

Well the US is free to impose anctions on whomever it wishes. You might legitimately disagree with the sanctions, but they really shouldn't be used to excuse dictatorship and tyranny, which seems to be a reflexive reaction of many left wingers. And I don't use that phrase in a pejorative manner.

Of course you are correct in that there is no excuse for tyranny, my real issue is with the US, not that they oppose tyranny, but they only oppose one kind of it.

fontanalis · 09-09-2010 6:43pm

karma_ wrote: »

Of course you are correct in that there is no excuse for tyranny, my real issue is with the US, not that they oppose tyranny, but they only oppose one kind of it.

Why don't you oppose both kinds. People who oppose regimes like Pinochet nearly always have some soft defense for Cuba.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:46pm

karma_ wrote: »

Of course you are correct in that there is no excuse for tyranny, my real issue is with the US, not that they oppose tyranny, but they only oppose one kind of it.

So in the face of actual tyranny in Cuba, with people detained, tortured and disappeared for speaking out against dictatorial rule, your real issue is with US hypocrisy. No offence, but this kinda sums up why I have little time for the Irish Left in general.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:49pm

fontanalis wrote: »

Why don't you oppose both kinds. People who oppose regimes like Pinochet nearly always have some soft defense for Cuba.

I'm not a communist and I do not favour dictatorships of any description.

I would rather that social change was engineered from within Cuba, and yes that of course will not be easy but all change must come from within.

Permabear · 09-09-2010 6:52pm

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evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 6:52pm

Einhard wrote: »

So in the face of actual tyranny in Cuba, with people detained, tortured and disappeared for speaking out against dictatorial rule, your real issue is with US hypocrisy. No offence, but this kinda sums up why I have little time for the Irish Left in general.

No offence, but I doubt the Irish Left has much time for you either. US hypocrisy and megalomania is a big deal when they pretty much have the power to make or break entire countries.

evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 6:54pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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That excuse became a bit jaded when the Soviet Union ceased to exist no?

karma_ · 09-09-2010 6:54pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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That was in 1962.

evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 6:55pm

karma_ wrote: »

I'm not a communist and I do not favour dictatorships of any description.

I would rather that social change was engineered from within Cuba, and yes that of course will not be easy but all change must come from within.

But the US have such a good track record in South America...

Permabear · 09-09-2010 6:57pm

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Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:58pm

evercloserunion wrote: »

No offence, but I doubt the Irish Left has much time for you either. US hypocrisy and megalomania is a big deal when they pretty much have the power to make or break entire countries.

They don't?

I think US power and the hegemony that goes with it can be discussed without using it to excuse tyranny and abuses around the world. The difference is, many on the Left seek to drag the US into every discussion, whether it is warranted or not.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 6:59pm

evercloserunion wrote: »

But the US have such a good track record in South America...

This is what I mean. What exactly does it have to do with tyranny in Cuba? It has about as good a record incidentally, as the Castros have in Cuba.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 7:01pm

Einhard wrote: »

They don't?

I think US power and the hegemony that goes with it can be discussed without using it to excuse tyranny and abuses around the world. The difference is, many on the Left seek to drag the US into every discussion, whether it is warranted or not.

We cannot seriously have a discussion about Cuba and not bring up the US and the impact US relations have had on it and the region in the last 40 years.

evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 7:01pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yah Batista was a great fellow wasn't he? Lover of democracy, friend of the people.

Interesting quote I found on Wikipedia from John F Kennedy:

I believe that there is no country in the world including any and all the countries under colonial domination, where economic colonization, humiliation and exploitation were worse than in Cuba, in part owing to my country’s policies during the Batista regime.

Permabear · 09-09-2010 7:01pm

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evercloserunion · 09-09-2010 7:04pm

Einhard wrote: »

They don't?

I think US power and the hegemony that goes with it can be discussed without using it to excuse tyranny and abuses around the world. The difference is, many on the Left seek to drag the US into every discussion, whether it is warranted or not.

What karma said. The left may drag the US into some discussions where it is not relevant or appropriate, but this is certainly not one of those times.

fontanalis · 09-09-2010 7:05pm

evercloserunion wrote: »

No offence, but I doubt the Irish Left has much time for you either. US hypocrisy and megalomania is a big deal when they pretty much have the power to make or break entire countries.

You can't justify a left wing dicatorship because of US support for right wing ones.
Dictatorships that commit human rights violations no matter what political shade they fall under are abhorrent.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 7:07pm

donegalfella wrote: »

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Why then did the 'evil American capitalists' treat right wing dictatorships so differently?

Also, I should point out that it is my belief that the dictatorship would have ended sooner had the US had treated Cuba differently, without sanctions.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 7:09pm

karma_ wrote: »

We cannot seriously have a discussion about Cuba and not bring up the US and the impact US relations have had on it and the region in the last 40 years.

True that, but I was talking about the efforts to blame the US for the tyrannical rule of Fidel Castro.

karma_ · 09-09-2010 7:12pm

Einhard wrote: »

True that, but I was talking about the efforts to blame the US for the tyrannical rule of Fidel Castro.

We obviously can't blame them, but they played their part in his longevity.

Einhard · 09-09-2010 7:12pm

karma_ wrote: »

Also, I should point out that it is my belief that the dictatorship would have ended sooner had the US had treated Cuba differently, without sanctions.

No, dictatorship would have ended sooner had thetyrant Castro decided not to run Cuba like his own personal fiefdom. Might have helped also had the global left not lauded him as some sort of hero. Ah but as long as it's not their rights that are trampled on, or their lives taken, the Left love a good dictator of their own.

Permabear · 09-09-2010 7:16pm

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Einhard · 09-09-2010 7:17pm

karma_ wrote: »

We obviously can't blame them, but they played their part in his longevity.

Exactly how? Castro was interested in one thing above all else, the attainment and retention of power. He wasn't going to allow that to slip because of some economic progress. Hasn't exactly helped the democratic cause in Saudi Arabia has it? Ah but I suppose, we can't be too harsh on the tyrants on our side of the political divide now, can we? Especially when the alternative is to have a go at the US!

You know, it's ironic, you'd be hard pressed to find someone on the Right here, or even moderate, who'd defend, excuse or obfuscate the regimes of Pinochet etc. But when it's Left wing tyranny, the equivocators swoop in droves. It's one of the reasons why i take the Left's oft proclaimed regard for human rights with a pinch of salt.

Fidel Castro admits Cuban communism doesn't work anymore

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