Knockanally Golf Club in Kildare

Jimdagym

http://www.golfmanagementnews.com/news/2010/070910.html

ANGLO IRISH BANK TAKE POSSESSION OF KNOCKANALLY GOLF CLUB IN KILDARE

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Allied Irish Banks (AIB) has taken possession of Knockanally GC, in Co Kildare, Ireland. The bank has appointed a receiver over the club, which is set on 125 acres outside Naas. The move came just days after the company’s creditors met to appoint a liquidator.

Tom Kavanagh, founding partner of insolvency specialists Kavanagh Fennell, has been installed as receiver over Ferndale Leisure, the holding company behind Knockanally. The club continues to trade, and the receiver is currently working with the club’s committee to make arrangements for its future.

A spokesman for AIB said the bank did not comment on individual clients.

Ferndale has been in financial difficulty for some time, and recently appointed a liquidator. This prompted AIB to foreclose on the company, as it held a charge over the course. The club is owned by businessman Noel Lyons, who held most of the company’s ‘A’ shares. However, members had an option to buy shares in the club.

In its most recent accounts, for 2008, the company said that trading at a loss was “not sustainable”, and the board was determined to reach break even or better. “The present recession will make it extremely difficult to achieve this objective, and reducing costs will be essential if the objective is to be met,” said its company filings.

This is just the latest in a series of high-profile Irish golf courses to be seized by lenders. In July, Irish Nationwide Building Society appointed a receiver over the €60m Moyvalley hotel and golf resort, also in Co Kildare, as well as a related course in Co Westmeath, the New Forest GC. The €100m Heritage Golf Hotel and Spa in Co Laois, has also gone into receivership.

f22

Strange it mentions Anglo in the title and AIB in the copy?

Jimdagym

f22 wrote: »

Strange it mentions Anglo in the title and AIB in the copy?

Never copped that. Good spot.

fonda

Playing it on Saturday, wonder what condition its in?

Jimdagym

fonda wrote: »

Playing it on Saturday, wonder what condition its in?

Make sure and report back on Saturday after your round.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

fonda

Jimdagym wrote: »

Make sure and report back on Saturday after your round.

Yeah will do, played it last year and really enjoyed it, was in great nic as far as I remember.

Glencarraig

They probably took control of this to give Seanie somewhere to play, he was probably blackballed in Greystones when was made bankrupt !!

bridestream

Lets get the facts right regarding Knockanally!

1. It went into liquidation at the behest of the shareholders i.e. its members.
2. Mr John Mcstay was appointed liquidator.
3. Next day Allied Irish Bank (not Anglo Irish) appointed a Receiver.
4. Mr Noel Lyons, the founder of the course 25 years ago, no longer owned
the course. He sold approx 510 of the 600 shares available in the operating
company Ferndale Leisure plc.
4. There are presently in excess of 400 members and the joint Gents and
Ladies committees are in negotiations with the Receiver & Liquidator and
are trying to put a plan in place to keep Knockanally operating as a golf
course.
5. Reasons it got into financial difficulty were
(a) 5 of the town houses development remain unsold;
(b) membership dropped from 540 in 2009 to 408 this year - recession!
6. The course is presently in good condition - I take the point regarding
some of the T boxes which need work done on them.
Fingers crossed we (Knockanally) - yes, I am a member - can continue as a golf course.

Unglika Norse

bridestream wrote: »

Lets get the facts right regarding Knockanally!

1. It went into liquidation at the behest of the shareholders i.e. its members.
2. Mr John Mcstay was appointed liquidator.
3. Next day Allied Irish Bank (not Anglo Irish) appointed a Receiver.
4. Mr Noel Lyons, the founder of the course 25 years ago, no longer owned
the course. He sold approx 510 of the 600 shares available in the operating
company Ferndale Leisure plc.
4. There are presently in excess of 400 members and the joint Gents and
Ladies committees are in negotiations with the Receiver & Liquidator and
are trying to put a plan in place to keep Knockanally operating as a golf
course.
5. Reasons it got into financial difficulty were
(a) 5 of the town houses development remain unsold;
(b) membership dropped from 540 in 2009 to 408 this year - recession!
6. The course is presently in good condition - I take the point regarding
some of the T boxes which need work done on them.
Fingers crossed we - yes, I am a member - can continue as a golf course.

Great Now that it is a members club I hope they mange to pull it off and keep it open, and the sooner the courses that are not members clubs and are being run by the banks close the better a chance you will have.

fonda

bridestream wrote: »

Lets get the facts right regarding Knockanally!

1. It went into liquidation at the behest of the shareholders i.e. its members.
2. Mr John Mcstay was appointed liquidator.
3. Next day Allied Irish Bank (not Anglo Irish) appointed a Receiver.
4. Mr Noel Lyons, the founder of the course 25 years ago, no longer owned
the course. He sold approx 510 of the 600 shares available in the operating
company Ferndale Leisure plc.
4. There are presently in excess of 400 members and the joint Gents and
Ladies committees are in negotiations with the Receiver & Liquidator and
are trying to put a plan in place to keep Knockanally operating as a golf
course.
5. Reasons it got into financial difficulty were
(a) 5 of the town houses development remain unsold;
(b) membership dropped from 540 in 2009 to 408 this year - recession!
6. The course is presently in good condition - I take the point regarding
some of the T boxes which need work done on them.
Fingers crossed we (Knockanally) - yes, I am a member - can continue as a golf course.

Hopefully ya's can survive, as I said above played it last year and it was in great nick, very reasonably priced at the time too. Have recommended it to friends and in other boards posts in the past.

conno16

never heard of this place

again effective marketing is the key to survival I feel
do they do green fees?

ozymandias10

bridestream wrote: »

Lets get the facts right regarding Knockanally!

1. It went into liquidation at the behest of the shareholders i.e. its members.
2. Mr John Mcstay was appointed liquidator.
3. Next day Allied Irish Bank (not Anglo Irish) appointed a Receiver.
4. Mr Noel Lyons, the founder of the course 25 years ago, no longer owned
the course. He sold approx 510 of the 600 shares available in the operating
company Ferndale Leisure plc.
4. There are presently in excess of 400 members and the joint Gents and
Ladies committees are in negotiations with the Receiver & Liquidator and
are trying to put a plan in place to keep Knockanally operating as a golf
course.
5. Reasons it got into financial difficulty were
(a) 5 of the town houses development remain unsold;
(b) membership dropped from 540 in 2009 to 408 this year - recession!
6. The course is presently in good condition - I take the point regarding
some of the T boxes which need work done on them.
Fingers crossed we (Knockanally) - yes, I am a member - can continue as a golf course.

Good news at least..keep the faith and ye will have a nice members club and in years to come ye might look back and think this was actually a positive thing

f22

conno16 wrote: »

never heard of this place

again effective marketing is the key to survival I feel
do they do green fees?

Perhaps you don't fit their effective marketing profile. If that changes perhaps they will have run ads during RTE's The Den to target you directly.

conno16

f22 - have you received some text messages or postal flyers about the course?
are they on teetimes.ie?
Do they stick a sneaky add in the back of the times every now and then..

this whole mentality of build it and they will come is embarrassing and further highlights the fact that most golf courses are clueless from a business perspective

the build it and they will come mentality might work in certain countries
unfortunately ireland seems to have applied this logic extensively during the 2000's and as a result most people live within 20 mins of a golf course today

i look forward to your enlightened response as ever

Yours truly,
connor

slumped

conno16 wrote: »

f22 - have you received some text messages or postal flyers about the course?
are they on teetimes.ie?
Do they stick a sneaky add in the back of the times every now and then..

this whole mentality of build it and they will come is embarrassing and further highlights the fact that most golf courses are clueless from a business perspective

the build it and they will come mentality might work in certain countries
unfortunately ireland seems to have applied this logic extensively during the 2000's and as a result most people live within 20 mins of a golf course today

i look forward to your enlightened response as ever

Yours truly,
connor

At long last, some sense from Conno! (and we now know your name is Connor!)

Absolutley spot on. Clubs think just because we are here, then we will be grand.

Knockanally, however, do market themselves well - to their core markets.

Societies ( i am secretary of one and get regular emails)
Online - (i get emails for opens etc.)
In local papers - (I live in Kildare and often see ads in press for them)

You don't need full page ads in nationals to have a effective campaign.

S

f22

have you received some text messages or postal flyers about the course?
They don't have my mobile number so pretty difficult to contact me. In terms of postal flyers, unless they would deliver to the whole of Dublin and Kildare counties at senseless cost I never would receive anything.

are they on teetimes.ie?
No idea, I never use the site

Do they stick a sneaky add in the back of the times every now and then.
Read the news online so can't comment

this whole mentality of build it and they will come is embarrassing and further highlights the fact that most golf courses are clueless from a business perspective
I actually agree with you

the build it and they will come mentality might work in certain countries
unfortunately ireland seems to have applied this logic extensively during the 2000's and as a result most people live within 20 mins of a golf course today
Location is one of the major deciding factors in joing a club for most people


i look forward to your enlightened response as ever
Glad I can help you through your day

conno16

ok this issue seems to have been put to bed.

agreed location is key
no reason why a club cant advertise though - use a bit of imagination to keep costs down and get the optimum return

sounds like if ur not a society organiser the onus is on the typical bloke to source out a course..
this is most different to forms of entertainment / leisure that i am familiar with

niall147

Knockanally is one of the unsung heros of golf in Leinster- unpretentious, good honest test of golf, usually in excellent condition and reasonable cost. It predates the celtic tiger clubs and fingers crossed it will survive. Hopefully the members can buy it out It would be an awful loss.
niall

WHIP IT!

niall147 wrote: »

Knockanally is one of the unsung heros of golf in Leinster- unpretentious, good honest test of golf, usually in excellent condition and reasonable cost. It predates the celtic tiger clubs and fingers crossed it will survive. Hopefully the members can buy it out It would be an awful loss.
niall

+1, great course and a nice atmosphere any time I was there. In fact, it's been too long since my last visit.

conno16

did you forget about it or something?

give them ur mobile number so you can get messages when they have comps on etc

dunmurry springs have taken an aggressive approach to this and it has payed off

koheim

I am also a member, only joined 2 year ago, but I do not think the club has a very bright future.
The thing going for it is mainly a very good and loyal members base and a course with a decent layout, but since it opened in the mid eighties not much has been upgraded. The overall drainage is very poor and most of the greens are in desperate need of an upgrade (only the 10th and 18th has had work done to it since the start).
Clubhouse is also an issue, the old mansion house is grand, but in a very poor state..

Hovewer, the land can't really be used for anything else than golf, so I am sure there will be played golf here in years to come. The big question now is at what cost? New sustainable subscriptions is to be decided and I have heard talks in the 1500 Euro region. If this is the case I doubt there will many members left next years. But I guess this is very much up to AIB..

So what are the options for me if Knockanally doesn't work out? Living in Celbridge, Knockanally is only 20 minutes away so that is very handy. I am not interested in paying much more than 1000 Euro a year, so currently looking at:
- Rathcore (best value, and best course around)
- Edenderry (great value, know some members and friendly enviroment)
- Moyvalley (a white elephant, but one of my favourite courses)
- Co. Meath
- Kilcock
any others?

Ko_

Tin_Cup

Would love to know how long some of these courses (in receivership etc) will remain open ? Surely its only a matter of time before some of them close? I'm a member of one at the and am unlikely to be shelling out any membership fees to a club with no future next year.

Gonna move this post to a new topic. Didnt mean to stray

Unglika Norse

koheim wrote: »

I am also a member, only joined 2 year ago, but I do not think the club has a very bright future.
The thing going for it is mainly a very good and loyal members base and a course with a decent layout, but since it opened in the mid eighties not much has been upgraded. The overall drainage is very poor and most of the greens are in desperate need of an upgrade (only the 10th and 18th has had work done to it since the start).
Clubhouse is also an issue, the old mansion house is grand, but in a very poor state..

Hovewer, the land can't really be used for anything else than golf, so I am sure there will be played golf here in years to come. The big question now is at what cost? New sustainable subscriptions is to be decided and I have heard talks in the 1500 Euro region. If this is the case I doubt there will many members left next years. But I guess this is very much up to AIB..

So what are the options for me if Knockanally doesn't work out? Living in Celbridge, Knockanally is only 20 minutes away so that is very handy. I am not interested in paying much more than 1000 Euro a year, so currently looking at:
- Rathcore (best value, and best course around)
- Edenderry (great value, know some members and friendly enviroment)
- Moyvalley (a white elephant, but one of my favourite courses)
- Co. Meath
- Kilcock
any others?

Ko_

Well for one I wouldn't join either rathcore ( overated imo) or moyvalley ( great course but probably unsustainable) as they are propriotory courses so you have no say in the running of the course, and are subject to the fees which are outside of your control. Edenderry Co.Meath & Kilcock are members clubs, but If it was me I'd stay with Knockanally and do a deal to pay the sub over 12 months. As you say they already have a very good loyal membership base and in essence that what clubs are about, and if they can do a deal that is what will see them through,

bridestream

Re Knockanally and its future.
There is an EGM of the members next Tuesday 14th Sept at 8pm.
It is being held at The Hamlet, Johnstown Bridge.
We can expect a report which will include the approx cost to keep the club operational.
Important as many of the 400 membership as possible attend.

conno16

best of luck with that.

Unglika Norse

conno16 wrote: »

best of luck with that.

A rarity this but to quote conno best of luck, Now just make sure everyone gets off of their arse to make it work. You are at this moment in time masters of your own destiny if you can cut a deal with the bank.

bridestream

Thanks for replies and kind words.
However Knockanally needs investment - about 500,000 in the stately old house - it is a listed bulding plus another 1.5 mil for course improvements such as new T boxes and greens and badly needed improved drainage.
Knockanally was ok compared to the competition up to about 10/12 years ago. It has since been passed out by most courses in the catchment area such as Killeen, Craddockstown, Castlewarden, Beech Park, Naas & Co Meath (Trim) and newcomers Rathcore, Carton & Millicent.
Fact is golfers expectations and standards to-day will not accept 3rd rate courses when there are so many top rate ones such as those I've listed available.
Incidentally, with respect to the comments comparing privately owned courses to member owned, remember Knockanally has been member owned and operated for over 10 years and look where we are now!
Meanwhile I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.

sheelbee

bridestream wrote: »

Thanks for replies and kind words.
However Knockanally needs investment - about 500,000 in the stately old house - it is a listed bulding plus another 1.5 mil for course improvements such as new T boxes and greens and badly needed improved drainage.
Knockanally was ok compared to the competition up to about 10/12 years ago. It has since been passed out by most courses in the catchment area such as Killeen, Craddockstown, Castlewarden, Beech Park, Naas & Co Meath (Trim) and newcomers Rathcore, Carton & Millicent.
Fact is golfers expectations and standards to-day will not accept 3rd rate courses when there are so many top rate ones such as those I've listed available.
Incidentally, with respect to the comments comparing privately owned courses to member owned, remember Knockanally has been member owned and operated for over 10 years and look where we are now!
Meanwhile I'll keep you posted as to the outcome.

The best of luck today I hope you can come to some arrangement with the banks. On a related track, from experience money invested in a club house is a wasted resource (see all the white elephants). Golfers go to play golf not to admire the club house: Invest in the course, scrutinse your machinery and if purchasing new equipment "look beyond the obvious" there is great value to be had out there if you look. Keep us posted.

bridestream

At Tuesday's EGM a new Management Committee was voted in and it will negotiate with the AIB appointed Receiver how to protect Knockanally's future as a golf course.
To prevent the Receiver/Bank putting the course into 'mothballs', as allegedly stated by the Receiver, the membership has to come up with 500 Euro each, payable in two instalments, 1st Oct and 1st Jan, to cover Receiver calculated expenses, for the 6 months ending 31st March 2011.
If this extra funding excercise is successful, negotiations will begin with Receiver/Bank to come up with a formula to keep the course open on a permanent basis.
However, indications from the Receiver/Bank is, they will not agree to a lease!
It's all to play for, I guess!
I wonder how many more courses are having similar financial difficulties just now?

Trampas

All the best with it. I say you will find it hard for all members to pay an extra €500.

I presume you will be running some fund raising events

bridestream

I'm not aware fund raising events are being planned.

Problem is, it's the usual relatively few 'usual suspects' who support the fund raising events and even they may be reluctant to do so again - I'm one of them!

Our membership peaked at 408 this year - we had 540 in 2009 - and an allowance has been made in the figures for slippage of another 100. The bottom line is, we need 300 out of 408 to support the funding proposal.

We will know early October if the 300 required pay up.
If they don't the course will be 'mothballed' - i.e. according to the Receiver.

koheim

So as a member I am asked to pay an 500 Euro to play golf from 1st October to 1st March. If we get the same winter as last year that is not much value for money, also I am sure that if I payed greenfee the times played til 1st March that would be close to 500 Euro.

Then again I guess I am not really a member anymore, well not after 1st October anyway.

Wonder if some of the other local clubs are preparing some good offers for ex. Knockanally members??

sheelbee

What with all the uncertainty regarding Knockanally et al I personally would not like to invest 500 euro for "winter" golf with no guarantees after. I have found a little gem of a course 9 hole just outside Blessington called Blessington Lakes formerly "Boystown" give it a try if your in the area they are really nice people too.

Deep Thought

koheim wrote: »

So as a member I am asked to pay an 500 Euro to play golf from 1st October to 1st March. If we get the same winter as last year that is not much value for money, also I am sure that if I payed greenfee the times played til 1st March that would be close to 500 Euro.

Then again I guess I am not really a member anymore, well not after 1st October anyway.

Wonder if some of the other local clubs are preparing some good offers for ex. Knockanally members??

I know our club are trying to do something for the members.

Unglika Norse

For gawds sake if your already a member why would you not take a punt on e500 to have a go at making it work. If you showd a bit of interest in keeping your club alive you might get the support of more of the golfing community like szondis place over in Kilcock

bridestream

In fairness to the members of Knockanally there is a chance it can survive. AIB is the one with the biggest problem.

They will not be able to sell the remaining 5 houses unless there is an an active golf course. In effect we, the members, have the bank by the s***t & c*****s. It's the bank that has the real problem.

The bank has no choice but to deal with us in a constructive manner and that includes agreeing to a 2/3 year lease at a nominal figure.
When agreed, we can offer a debt free member owned course at a very competitive sub.

How many member owned courses within the greater Knockanally catchment area are debt free? In fact my information is, most, if not all, are millions in debt.

The moment of truth will be known by mid October - will 300 of the existing 400 members agree to paying the 300 Euro to keep it operating up to end of December plus another 200 Euro paid early January to keep it operational to end of March.

During this period it is expected negotiations with AIB can be finalised.
Fingers crossed!

L.O.F.T

bridestream wrote: »

will 300 of the existing 400 members agree to paying the 300 Euro to keep it operating up to end of December plus another 200 Euro paid early January to keep it operational to end of March

Above is such a huge ask in the current climate with the payments being requested during such a tricky time of year that is Christmas and more so after Christmas when everyone is smashed. I wish you luck and without sounding overly negative I think you'll need it.

Trampas

L.O.F.T wrote: »

Above is such a huge ask in the current climate with the payments being requested during such a tricky time of year that is Christmas and more so after Christmas when everyone is smashed. I wish you luck and without sounding overly negative I think you'll need it.

I have to agree with LOFT here. With paying the €500 is there a certainty the club will be still open come summer of next year.

What is a nominal figure to pay AIB?

Wish you all the best but I wouldn't be thinking that you are going to gain €500 for 300 members

bridestream

The up to date situation is, circa 250 members paid the 300 Euro to keep Knockanally operational up to end of year.
However not one cent will be paid to Receiver unless there is agreement with our negotiating team and this will be put to the 250 members for approval.
Indications are there are many 'members' sitting on the fence and are waiting to see if satisfactory agreement with Receiver is reached.
I am led to believe a further meeting with Receiver was being held this evening.
I do not believe a Receiver cares too much about the members; I think he/she is more interested in the fee AIB will pay when the job is finished.
Without going into detail, being in Receivership is certainly not the ideal for a golf club. One can see the deterioration taking place everywhere; it's small but noticable.
I'm less and less hopeful of a successful outcome - hope I'm wrong.

reflog rehtona

What sort of nick is Knockanally in? Has anybody played it recently? I see that City Deal are doing a deal on it today. Any thoughts?

the lawman

reflog rehtona wrote: »

What sort of nick is Knockanally in? Has anybody played it recently? I see that City Deal are doing a deal on it today. Any thoughts?

Played it three weeks ago and in all honesty it was in great nick. Lovely course with some fantastic holes. Was gonna join but year runs jan to jan so might wait till next jan. Enjoy it if you play.

niall147

Don't most clubs run from jan to jan? And it is only April Lawman! :-)
Played there yesterday and in great condition apart from greens having been pole forked. Earlybird 15 euro!!
n

bridestream

Knockanally reportedly sold for 1.1 mil Euro to a Kildare emigrant living in Birmingham.
He is supposed to own a golf course in England so should know what he is letting himself in for!
He will need to spend on upgrading a lot of the Tee Boxes and also get the drainage sorted before the coming winter. It was a mess last winter.
It looks like a new beginning and could result in the members being able to look ahead with confidence. Good luck to all.

sydneybound

bridestream wrote: »

Knockanally reportedly sold for 1.1 mil Euro to a Kildare emigrant living in Birmingham.
He is supposed to own a golf course in England so should know what he is letting himself in for!
He will need to spend on upgrading a lot of the Tee Boxes and also get the drainage sorted before the coming winter. It was a mess last winter.
It looks like a new beginning and could result in the members being able to look ahead with confidence. Good luck to all.

Hope the future is bright for Knockanally, looks it at the moment.

pucky8967

Played Knockanally recently and it is in very poor shape. The T boxes in particular are for the most part dreadful. Word is new owner is not providing any financial help to the course.
It badly needs a substantial injection of funds to bring it up to the standard of courses nearby such as Castlewarden, Craddockstown, Rathcore, Naas, Killeen (4 lakes) & Millicent.

ozymandias10

pucky8967 wrote: »

Played Knockanally recently and it is in very poor shape. The T boxes in particular are for the most part dreadful. Word is new owner is not providing any financial help to the course.
It badly needs a substantial injection of funds to bring it up to the standard of courses nearby such as Castlewarden, Craddockstown, Rathcore, Naas, Killeen (4 lakes) & Millicent.

three posts two of them the very same about Knockanally...have you some other agenda we should know about.

pucky8967

Played Knockanally again during the recent Open Week.
Some of the Tees are so bad we were playing off winter mats!
Nice layout but fact is it has deteriorated during the past few years and it's obvious there has been no financial input made by the new owner.
Pity, because it's not fair to the remaining loyal members.

ozymandias10 - please expand on your 'agenda' assertion.
Have you played the course recently? Or are you a member?

ArielAtom

If the course is that bad why do you keep going back to play it?????

Donkeygonads

I played it about 2 weeks ago for the first time in 5 years and I have to agree some of the tee-boxes were dreadful , especially the 12th .... But the worst issue by a mile were the flys !!!!!

pucky8967

In reply to arielatom - I was invited by a member - in fact by more than one member.
I do admit they did say they were still waiting on funds from the new owner to undertake on course improvements.

If they don't get the funds soon to carry out the very obvious improvements that are required I would not be surprised if some of the current membership will go elsewhere at the end of this year.

There are so many courses not too far from Knockanally that have excellent facilities and are in superb condition and they include include - Lucan, Millicent, Rathcore, Moyvalley, Craddockstown, Beech Park, Naas, Killeen, Hermitage, Trim, Knghtsbrook, Castleknock.
All of these courses I have played and from T box to Greens are 'streets' ahead of Knockanally.