RTÉ Two "high definition light"

watty

Macy0161 wrote: »

Would Sky even be able to handle the way RTE are going to do HD, with switching between SD and HD? They'd end up with blocked content for those with a SD receiver, and how would they fit it in with their additional HD sub?

On Sky or UPC there has to be HD and SD RTE if HD is added. Also Sky & UPC have to pay all the costs of carriage, EPG and encryption. It can't be FTA or FTV.

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

On Sky or UPC there has to be HD and SD RTE if HD is added. Also Sky & UPC have to pay all the costs of carriage, EPG and encryption. It can't be FTA or FTV.

So the giving out about RTE not making it available to Sky/ UPC wasn't justified in the first feckin place then!

rlogue

Damn right it's justified. RTE should not be in the business of favouring one platform over another. We are so far behind in implementing HD so it's ridiculous that anyone who already subscribes to a Pay TV service should be forced to install another system just get our national channels in HD.

Apogee

rlogue wrote: »

Damn right it's justified. RTE should not be in the business of favouring one platform over another.

Why should RTÉ facilitate multinational corporations whose sole objective is to make money and whose profits go entirely overseas? And in the case of one of the corporations, doesn't even pay VAT to the Irish exchequer.

We are so far behind in implementing HD so it's ridiculous that anyone who already subscribes to a Pay TV service should be forced to install another system just get our national channels in HD.

Nobody is forcing anyone to subscribe to Pay TV. Anyone who does subscribe to Pay TV knows exactly what channels they are getting when they do sign up. If either UPC or Sky are concerned enough about their Irish customers, I'm sure they can do a deal with RTÉ and pay for the HD content by taking a small cut in their profits.

watty

At present RTE are basically "giving away" Content to Sky and UPC, Sky and UPC should be paying for this. I'm sure come next q2 2011 if Sky actually offers the going European Rate for RTE HD content there will be RTE HD on Sky.

Sky do after all Pay the BBC for NI content on Sky ROI, even though people in Ireland can get it free (and more BBC) on Freesat.

The Cush

Macy0161 wrote: »

Would Sky even be able to handle the way RTE are going to do HD, with switching between SD and HD? They'd end up with blocked content for those with a SD receiver, and how would they fit it in with their additional HD sub?

I think the assumption here is that it will be mixed 576 SD and 1080 HD. It is indicated that it will be true 1080 HD for live events i.e. the HD light part and up-converted SD to HD for the other material.

RTÉ has stated the following in the tech spec doc

The first stage of the project will up-convert much of the RTÉ 2 schedule of programmes from SD to HD for transmission.

The required RTÉ 2 HD playout system will enable the transmission of live and recorded events in native HD. All of the existing RTE 2 SD content (i.e. programmes, commercials, studio inserts etc.) will be up-converted to HD for transmission, and transmitted around the native HD events. In effect the Pres schedule and all programme content will be identical on RTÉ 2 SD and on RTÉ 2 HD, with different quality pictures being presented on each service.

The only variant of RTÉ 2 on the DTT platform will be RTÉ HD

The diagrams in the document (pages 8 & 9) only shows an HD stream going to DTT for transmission with an SD stream for UPC & Sky.

lawhec

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ - irrespective of the fact that in the absence of a commercial player, they effective "own" the DTT platform - shouldn't be biased in favour of one platform. They are a public service broadcaster and like the BBC should be endevouring to ensure that licence fee payers get the full RTÉ service on whatever platform they choose to recieve TV by - whether that's Saorview, UPC, or Sky. They shouldn't be making particular channels exclusive to DTT. Now RTÉ News A Few Hours Ago is one thing, since it isn't a real channel and can be recieved on the internet in any case. But making RTÉ HD exclusive to Saorview is doing a diservice to licence fee payers who have chosen to recieve RTÉ via Sky or UPC and are faced with having two set top boxes* underneath their TV (and the consequent electricity bill and perhaps fiddling about with HDMI cables) in order to recieve the full RTÉ service.

Two things, one is that the BBC personally rent their broadcast satellite capacity. RTÉ don't, it is sub-let (effectively gratis) through BSkyB. Therefore RTÉ have more flexibility with DVB-T in the present, RTÉ's (& TV3 & TG4) agreement with BSkyB will be for distribution of certain programmes. If this is anything like deals done with terrestrial broadcasters, there will be various clauses regarding channel availability and the launch of new services within the time frame of the contract. If I'm to speculate, by the time contract renewal takes place any HD services being provided at this stage by the terrestrial broadcasters will be talked about in a new agreement.

Second, the BBC isn't quite "platform neutral", while their eight channels (on six streams) are available on all digital platforms, interactive services vary a great deal. DTT for a long time was already a poor relation on this which up until about a year ago had two interactive streams and a mini three screen news multi-screen service. This was reduced last year to use a single interactive video stream and the news multi-screen disappeared for the sake of preparing DTT in the UK for HD, whereas on satellite (Sky & Freesat) and cable, much more varied interactive services remain including a six mini screen news multi-screen service and six SD streams for events such as sport as and when needed. So while the BBC have capacity on satellite to experiment with additional services (their BBC HD channel was available for several years until it just launched on Freeview HD areas where it is currently available) that they don't have the space to do so on DTT, it's the reverse at present with RTÉ.

lawhec

rlogue wrote: »

RTE effectively killed off DAB in Ireland by vetoing the BBC Radio channels from their DAB service and didn't seem to provide much of an incentive for the commercial sector to switch over to DAB.

rlogue wrote: »

Again if the UK channels were offered down a simple set top antenna then that would have provided a real incentive to switch. People won't just switch for HD.

There's a major elephant in the room regarding both of the above though - who would pay for the distribution, rights and broadcast of such services? Also, for DAB there is a question of (a) capacity and (b) possible objections by commercial broadcasters.

rlogue wrote: »

Saorsat is another case in point. The only real benefit of Saorsat is that it provides a figleaf to RTE who can now say their channels are FTA on satellite.

The intention as I see it for Saorsat is to fulfil coverage guarantees for viewers in the state who won't receive satisfactory signals from the DTT network for (at the very least) PSB channels in the same spirit that is done in other European countries. The Saorsat set up just happens to be a very cost effective one which in the current climate is very heavily weighted for.

rlogue wrote: »

TV3 are absolutely silent on Saorsat and I wonder if they will be there at all.

Unless someone has pointed out otherwise, my understanding is for Saorsat to mirror what is available on Saorview, so if/when TV3 go on Saorview, they should appear on Saorsat at the same time.

STB

Some eventually will put a big push on a HD Combo all in one solution for DTT and Sat.

These products are mainly unknown outside of techie boards!

People's viewing habits already show that people dont have to subscribe to Sky or UPC to watch FTA UK programming let alone Irish programming. They just dont know that..... yet.

I suspect its a case of the green eyed monster here for the diaspora !! :eek:

rlogue

STB wrote: »

I suspect its a case of the green eyed monster here for the diaspora !! :eek:

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

And because of that (economic situation) looking less likely that even RTÉ International will see the light of day.

FREETV

The Cush wrote: »

And because of that (economic situation) looking less likely that even RTÉ International will see the light of day.

And we all know who are the culprits involved and to blame for the economic situation at the moment and it isn't RTE while we all suffer with more hardship and less tv choices, in particular expats in the case of RTE International. Maybe at the end of 2013?

rlogue

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

Are all irish made programmes available internationally on rte player now? Is that not a half way house in the circumstances?

Macy0161

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

There should be a (Government funded) RTE International - based around RTE News Now has been my past suggestion.

However, that's a different arguement to what RTE is choosing to do with satellite - for once they've made an extremely cost effective solution for the licence payer. RTE is fulfilling it's remit.

rlogue

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Scratchy postage stamp videos on the RTÉ player is better than nothing but when I consider that RTÉ are prepared to spend €1.5 million on a Saorsat system that cannot be received outside Ireland when they could have had RTÉ International on satellite across Europe for less.

I was explictly told by RTÉ that they did not have the money to spend on a European satellite service - but now that RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders - we now have €1.5 million to fritter on a satellite service only the really desperate will fork out for?

At least if the service was on 28.5 and FTV there would have been a back door to RTE for the ever growing diaspora. With this Saorsat approach we will be ignored yet again.

watty

That 1.5M is instead of 30M to 50M roll out costs and high running costs for a further 100 DTT sites. It's got nothing to do with "Satellite" or RTE International. It's using a satellite technology to save money on the primary remit of FTA TV in Ireland. It's cheap for the 2% to 7% that can't ever get Terrestrial when there are only 51 instead of 150 DTT sites.

Saorsat is NOT a competing satellite service to Sky, Freesat, Real or anyone else. It's LOCAL terrestrial "fill in" and the absolutely cheapest method of supplying those 2% to 7% of people. The alternative for all of Saorview to those people would never ever have been on 28.2 (Sky or Real FTV card). The alternative would be building another 100 DTT sites and fibre/microwave links to them with no backup.

RTE NL is in serious financial difficulty and difficulty in meeting primary remit of Irish viewers in Ireland if the Ka-sat launch fails. They would have to build out more DTT as the lesser evil. FTV satellite @28E would be more expensive and for HD the rights holders would ask difficult questions.

Because FTV is a failure to limit content geographically and now the Rights Holders know this.

28.2E would cost 25M p.a. for a copy of Saorview FTV and need legislation (for FTV card) and WOULD absolutely not be for people outside Ireland even if it did exist unless they lied about address. It would give up control to pay Operator.

RTE International needs to be done, and IMO in USA, Australia, Canada etc but with UK as lowest priority. Soarsat puts no obstacles in the way of an RTE International on 28.2E at all. In fact it saves so much capacity (scarce) on 28.2E and so much money it makes it easier!

RTE International can't have a higher priority than the digital rollout for people in Ireland. The Indigenous channels can't be broadcast to a UK audience.

STB

rlogue wrote: »

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Scratchy postage stamp videos on the RTÉ player is better than nothing but when I consider that RTÉ are prepared to spend €1.5 million on a Saorsat system that cannot be received outside Ireland when they could have had RTÉ International on satellite across Europe for less.

I was explictly told by RTÉ that they did not have the money to spend on a European satellite service - but now that RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders - we now have €1.5 million to fritter on a satellite service only the really desperate will fork out for?

At least if the service was on 28.5 and FTV there would have been a back door to RTE for the ever growing diaspora. With this Saorsat approach we will be ignored yet again.

Statutory remit.
"in so far as RTE considers reasonably practicable".

I would imagine that economic circumstances will dictate the reasonable nature of any such broadcasts in the current climate. After all they have just spent a shed load of cash building the new digital infrastructure.

The satellite service is driven by economics of providing universal coverage for the island for DSO rather than little fill in's here and there. It may well be well spent in that regard.

I dont think its deliberate forgetfullness Richard. Economics and priorities probably are ruling the day though for the moment. Hey at least you can the stations on Sky.

watty

RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders

Commercial DTT is a very high risk in Ireland.
The Money RTE NL was looking for was modest and even with the Bond if Boxer or Easy had gone bust after 2 years(very likely if either had gone ahead), RTE NL would have been out of pocket.

RTE NL bought gear assuming Pay DTT was happening. They didn't block it. Independent assessment didn't think the charges too high.

Commercial DTT was Government Doctrine. Not a real-world possibility for the Irish Market with almost Pay TV saturation, only one local PayTV channel and all the best content available free from PSB mux and FTA via Freesat or cancelled Sky Sub.

The highest viewed pay channels are watched less than 2% People were not going to pay €10 a month for UK TV on DTT when it's free. If they really want pay TV, DTT can't compete with Sky & UPC.

How much is the Government funding Digital Rollout?

How much will Government make from the Digital Dividend? (selling off Spectrum) Enough to pay for RTE International for probably 10 years...

Macy0161

rlogue wrote: »

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Actually I did, for 20 plus years, when all we had was the editted down Late Late that Channel 4 carried. Wasn't the internet option of RTE player back in those days.

RTE News Now already has Prime Time and Front Line. It could easily be extended to include Nationwide/ Capital D, and possibly the late late if there were no rights issues over some of the content. The real clamour, imo, is for the Sports Coverage. This is totally unrealistic anyway - the GAA will never allow that, nothing to do with RTE.

The Saorsat solution is for the Island of Ireland, rather than a back door RTE International.

STB

Most home produced and delayed or full delayed coverage of GAA is available on the RTE player and is not geoblocked as far as I am aware.

The GAA themselves obiously dictate the rules on delayed.

rlogue

rlogue wrote:

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Scratchy postage stamp videos on the RTÉ player is better than nothing but when I consider that RTÉ are prepared to spend €1.5 million on a Saorsat system that cannot be received outside Ireland when they could have had RTÉ International on satellite across Europe for less.

rte player have most home produced current affairs programming available outside Ireland and some entertainment including the late late show.
You do realise you can watch rte player in full screen mode?
I find full screen to be quite good quality actually.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0113/player.html

I might add I've watched it myself at 36,000 feet above the gulf of mexico on a virgin america flight from florida to los angeles!You can't get much more international than that !

The Cush

The Cush wrote: »

In mid August RTÉ published a tender notice for the supply of a HD playout facility for RTÉ Television. RTÉ HD Playout Facility Technical Requirements Document here.

Yesterday RTÉ published the HD playout system contract award notice on the e-tenders website.

The contract was awarded last May to the Eurotech Group

SECTION V: AWARD OF CONTRACT

CONTRACT NO: 244340

TITLE HD Playout System.

V.1)
Date of contract award decision:

2.5.2011

V.2)
NUMBER OF OFFERS RECEIVED:

4

V.3)
NAME AND ADDRESS OF ECONOMIC OPERATOR IN FAVOUR OF WHOM A CONTRACT AWARD DECISION HAS BEEN TAKEN

Eurotech Group
Rossullus Walk, Co Monaghan
Castleblayney
IRELAND

tlaavtech

That seems an odd choice. From their web-site they do building project management and renewable and under-floor heating. The address is the same as the post above. I could understand the contract going to Eurotek - wonder if there has been a typo somewhere along the way?

fat-tony

Excellent spot tlaavtech - toasty warm underfoot in RTE, but the HD playout system is not quite ready yet, for some odd reason:D

mike2084

Lots of HD events over the next month it seems

http://www.rte.ie/sport/2011/0803/rte_hd_sport.html?RTEMAILID