RTÉ Two "high definition light"

The Cush

At the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Communications discussion with RTÉ in mid July Conor Hayes (RTÉ CFO) said the following

Mr. Conor Hayes: ...
RTE Two will be carried on what is known as “high definition light”. For example, we would be able to cover the GAA championships of the summer of 2011 in high definition on a whistle to whistle basis. We do not have all the infrastructure at our studios to show the rest of the coverage in high definition. We propose that the high definition services should be offered on DTT only, thereby giving people an incentive to switch to DTT.

In mid August RTÉ published a tender notice for the supply of a HD playout facility for RTÉ Television. RTÉ HD Playout Facility Technical Requirements Document here.

Some extracts from the Technical Requirements Document

2 System Requirements

2.1 General Requirements

RTÉ intends to provide a HD version of the RTÉ 2 service initially on the DTT platform. This proposed service may later be offered to other platform operators such as Sky satellite and UPC cable networks.

The term HD assumes that any equipment proposed in a tenderers response will be capable of processing all of the currently specified used European HD interlaced and progressive broadcast standards. In the event that this requirement is not currently possible, this fact should be noted.

The first stage of the project will up-convert much of the RTÉ 2 schedule of programmes from SD to HD for transmission. RTÉ owns the transmission rights for some remote local (i.e Outside Broadacst) and some EBU events, which are originated and available natively in HD. The signals from these events will be delivered to RTÉ’s Donnybrook Television Centre and will then be directly passed on to the proposed new service for broadcast in HD.. It is planned to introduce this “pass through” live HD playout, while the existing Snell Compass system is still in operation. This will enable the introduction of the HD service at the earliest possible date without the requirement to migrate to the new automation system.

The second stage of the project will enable the playout of recorded programmes, in addition to the native HD live contributions. This phase of the project will be implemented when the new automation system is introduced. It is proposed to play some acquired programmes from HDCam machines. These VTRs will replace the two standalone digibeta machines in the existing Presentation area.

The existing Probel 128 x 64 SD Sirius router is being upgraded by a scalable replacement Snell SD/HD equivalent in advance of the new automation system upgrade. This new router will initially have the same 128 x 64 SD switching capability and in line with the current situation will be used to switch all sources to air.

The required RTÉ 2 HD playout system will enable the transmission of live and recorded events in native HD. All of the existing RTE 2 SD content (i.e. programmes, commercials, studio inserts etc.) will be up-converted to HD for transmission, and transmitted around the native HD events. In effect the Pres schedule and all programme content will be identical on RTÉ 2 SD and on RTÉ 2 HD, with different quality pictures being presented on each service..

The system will be engineered with a view to ensuring that there will be, no additional studio production or Television Presentation operational costs and the proposed new service will have no impact on the RTÉ 2 SD service. The Scheduling department will include extra information in the RTÉ 2 schedule, at the times when the live HD contribution feeds are available. This will enable the true HD signal to be inserted into the output of the RTÉ 2 HD service. Graphics and sound will be added to the signal automatically from one production studio. It is planned that the service will carry a new logo/bug ‘RTÉ 2 HD’ and also a short animation will be played, probably a lower third super, on handover to the live event.

There are technical complexities to be overcome to ensure that the picture quality remains high, that the associated vision and sound is properly synchronised between the two RTE 2 services and that the graphic content is acceptable. Only stereo sound will be carried on the service and no HD post production facilities are included.

In some intances, especially major sporting events, the complete presentation will be located at the remote/OB venue. The signals received at RTÉ will be the complete production package of video, audio and graphics. In this situation there will no need to add audio and graphics content from the local studio. The requirement to add on-screen bugs will still be necessary.

It is essential that the solution integrates from a Presentation automation perspective with the existing and new Automation systems whereby both the RTÉ 2 SD and HD services can be controlled by a single schedule but controlling each service separately.
...

HD programming will be introduced to the new HD service in two stages. Firstly live material only and secondly a combination of live and tape based programmes.
...

2.3.9 System resilience
...

The automation system provider will be asked to provide a backup plan in the event of a HD transmission chain failure. This system involves the provision of an up-converted SD signal to the HD channel using an emergency bypass switch.

2.3.10 Assumptions

• The only variant of RTÉ 2 on the DTT platform will be RTÉ HD

mike65

I doubt anyone will moan about studio chit chat being in SD.

Apogee

So if I'm reading that right, the plan is to have two, separate channels, RTÉ2 SD and RTÉ2 HD running side-by-side, with the HD channel showing occasional material in HD but the rest of the time being a duplicate of the SD service?

Current plans envisage that this project will be executed in late 2010 and 1st half of 2011.

[...]

There are technical complexities to be overcome to ensure that the picture quality remains high, that the associated vision and sound is properly synchronised between the two RTE 2 services and that the graphic content is acceptable. Only stereo sound will be carried on the service and no HD post production facilities are included.

Bit on outside feeds

There are usually three separate feeds provided from the OB. Two dirty feeds and one clean feed is provided. Both dirty feeds are made available to Presentation and both are available on the Presentation routers and mixer control panel. In the event that the primary feed fails the backup is manually switched to air by the Presentation Editor. The Clean feed is made available by External to the edit suites. Should this feed fail then a taped copy can be provided from the OB.

Currently in the case of a ‘Champions League’ event the vision and Effects feeds are provided by satellite and resilience is provided by the satellite operator at the remote site.

Two IRD’s are placed across the incoming signal in RTÉ’s External Area providing two separate vision sources to the local studio and two separate Effects audio sources. Commentary is provided by ISDN and backup is provided by using the talkback circuit, both audio sources are provided to the studio.

The studio operational staff will have the responsibility to select the correct sources and a single SDI feed with embedded audio is provided to Presentation. In the event of a failure of the feed between the Studio and Presentation a backup will be provided via the main station router.

copacetic

Apogee wrote: »

So if I'm reading that right, the plan is to have two, separate channels, RTÉ2 SD and RTÉ2 HD running side-by-side, with the HD channel showing occasional material in HD but the rest of the time being a duplicate of the SD service?

Correct, You have to remember RTÉ SD is still required for Analogue Terrestrial, NTL and SKY.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

So if I'm reading that right, the plan is to have two, separate channels, RTÉ2 SD and RTÉ2 HD running side-by-side, with the HD channel showing occasional material in HD but the rest of the time being a duplicate of the SD service?

To feed Terrestrial till 2012 also UPC and Sky with SD?

Also to switch between SD and HD initially as to to HD they need to kill RTE1+1 and slow RTE News Now to a crawl. The numbers for bit-rate don't work till there is a 2nd Mux.

Technically I can't see the space for SD & HD simulcast in the mux., not possible, nor needed as the minimum spec is HD with HD on HDMI and downsampled HD-> SD on SCART.

Even when there is a 2nd Mux, there is no simulcast space if RTE1 and TG4 are also HD which is the plan in 2012/2013. Even TV3 is likely to be HD eventually.

Or to keep options open.

We will know soon enough.

What they do initially before TV3 (and Tv3e?) joins and 2nd Mux + Saorsat and Public launch may be different from later.

People should assume they MUST have a TV or setbox that meets the Minimum Saorview spec.
http://rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf

“Approved Digital Terrestrial Television (DTT) Receivers

RTÉ has appointed Teracom AB to conduct receiver compliance testing for Irish free-to-air (FTA) DTT receivers. Those receivers which pass the tests thereby meeting the Irish DTT specification will be eligible to be licensed to use RTÉ’s “Saorview” logo, which will confirm to consumers that the receiver is Irish FTA DTT compliant. RTÉNL will publish a full list of compliant DTT receivers on its web site.

Manufacturers/distributors wishing to use the Saorview logo should contact Teracom (irdtest@teracom.se) to arrange testing. When a receiver passes the tests, it will then be eligible to be licensed by RTÉ to carry the Saorview logo.”

My Interpretation

Summary

* DVB-t (DVB-T2 will work as all support DVB-T)
* MPEG-4 H.264 video even for non-HD
* AAC support even for stereo, not just MP2 Audio
* HD support for non-SD TVs (SCART down scaling) as there may not be simulcast SD & HD
* HD only on HDMI (Copy protection)
* MHEG5 extended EPG and Interactive (middleware).

Warning
The NP4 or any other Neotion CAM will never meet NorDig 2.0, Soarview Specification or do HD TV.

via http://www.techtir.ie/isaa/saorview/setbox

Apogee

copacetic wrote: »

Correct, You have to remember RTÉ SD is still required for Analogue Terrestrial, NTL and SKY.

But it isn't necessary to transmit it on DTT where the duplication is only eating up bandwidth. A hybrid service which switches between SD and HD would be more efficient.

watty wrote: »

Technically I can't see the space for SD & HD simulcast in the mux., not possible, nor needed as the minimum spec is HD with HD on HDMI and downsampled HD-> SD on SCART.

I can't either.

Apogee

Ok, what does 'variant' mean in this context? Do they mean 'variant' or 'version'??

2.3.10 Assumptions

• The only variant of RTÉ 2 on the DTT platform will be RTÉ HD

That RTÉ2 on DTT will be the HD version only i.e. a single, hydrid channel will be transmitted.

Mike 1972

Apogee wrote: »

But it isn't necessary to transmit it on DTT where the duplication is only eating up bandwidth. A hybrid service which switches between SD and HD would be more efficient.

Agreed a seperate SD service is a waste of bandwidth since any decent STB/iDTV can downscale HD content to 576i/625 for display on non-HD ready equipment.

I can watch BBC HD on my non HD CRT

The Cush

mike65 wrote: »

I doubt anyone will moan about studio chit chat being in SD.

The studio infrastructure is part of RTÉ's Project 2025.

Subject to planning approval, the phased development is intended to begin with new high definition (HD), digital TV and new digital Radio studios and to culminate in a wing incorporating further production areas, rehearsal and performance spaces and staff offices. The plan has evolved through a full review of all options for the renewal of RTÉ’s production base and capital facilities.

copacetic

Apogee wrote: »

But it isn't necessary to transmit it on DTT where the duplication is only eating up bandwidth.

I don't see anything in the tender that implies it will be transmitted on DTT? The tender is platform independent, it is for playout not distribution.

Apogee

copacetic wrote: »

I don't see anything in the tender that implies it will be transmitted on DTT? The tender is platform independent, it is for playout not distribution.

That's what the 2.3.10 point seems to confirm.

The Cush

copacetic wrote: »

I don't see anything in the tender that implies it will be transmitted on DTT? The tender is platform independent, it is for playout not distribution.

From the tender "RTÉ intends to provide a HD version of the RTÉ 2 service initially on the DTT platform. This proposed service may later be offered to other platform operators such as Sky satellite and UPC cable networks" and previously from Conor Hayes "we propose that the high definition services should be offered on DTT only, thereby giving people an incentive to switch to DTT".

Stinicker

On a completely unrelated note, would this suggest that current stuff being recorded by RTE now is still being captured in Standard Definition? I would love to see a few GAA games in High-Def and wonder for instance are the All-Ireland finals captured in HD even though they are not broadcast in HD? I'd love to buy Tipp V KK on BluRay if so!

I remember BBCHD broadcast the rugby from Croke Park in HD early this year so I wonder is it a case of Croke Park having their own inhouse filming equipment or would the BBC/Sky/RTE etc. bring in their own gear to do the broadcast? Similary I wonder what did the Aviva come up with?

Sorry for OT

STB

Stinicker wrote: »

On a completely unrelated note, would this suggest that current stuff being recorded by RTE now is still being captured in Standard Definition? I would love to see a few GAA games in High-Def and wonder for instance are the All-Ireland finals captured in HD even though they are not broadcast in HD? I'd love to buy Tipp V KK on BluRay if so!

I remember BBCHD broadcast the rugby from Croke Park in HD early this year so I wonder is it a case of Croke Park having their own inhouse filming equipment or would the BBC/Sky/RTE etc. bring in their own gear to do the broadcast? Similary I wonder what did the Aviva come up with?

Sorry for OT

No they have been building up quite a HD archive (and coverting other stuff) from what I hear. The GAA/Rugby/Racing etc has been filmed in HD for the last few years anyhow. The OBs are outsourced to the likes of Observe, Oblivion and TVM who provide HD for the feeds.


TVM did the feeds for Sky in HD at the Aviva. http://www.tvm.ie/news.html Not sure if that was exclusive.

On/T - Agree with Apogee and Watty. RTE2 will most likely be HD/SD hybrid and not broadcast in parallel and perhaps from as early as next April.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

On/T - Agree with Apogee and Watty. RTE2 will most likely be HD/SD hybrid and not broadcast in parallel and perhaps from as early as next April.

There was never any indication from RTÉ that there would be two streams transmitted on DTT only speculation here.

The two streams from the Snell Sirius SD/HD router (tech requirements doc page 8 and 9) are one stream (hybrid SD/HD or HD and upconverted SD ??) for DTT, the other - SD for Sky, UPC (and analogue terrestrial?).

We may see HD before April next, this from the spec document

The first stage of the project will up-convert much of the RTÉ 2 schedule of programmes from SD to HD for transmission. RTÉ owns the transmission rights for some remote local (i.e Outside Broadacst) and some EBU events, which are originated and available natively in HD. The signals from these events will be delivered to RTÉ’s Donnybrook Television Centre and will then be directly passed on to the proposed new service for broadcast in HD.. It is planned to introduce this “pass through” live HD playout, while the existing Snell Compass system is still in operation. This will enable the introduction of the HD service at the earliest possible date without the requirement to migrate to the new automation system.

copacetic

Stinicker wrote: »

I remember BBCHD broadcast the rugby from Croke Park in HD early this year so I wonder is it a case of Croke Park having their own inhouse filming equipment or would the BBC/Sky/RTE etc. bring in their own gear to do the broadcast?

RTÉ are host broadcaster for the six nations games from Ireland, the HD feed is provided to BBC by the host broadcaster. Who can make use of it as they have a HD channel.

The Cush wrote: »

We may see HD before April next, this from the spec document

It's best to keep in mind that this is a technical tender. Generally you would want your technical infrastructure as far in advance of actual transmissions as possible.

icdg

RTÉ are sorely mistaken if they think the availablity of one channel in HD for a few hours each week is going to get people to jump from a platform with hundreds of channels to one with just seven, most of which are already available on either Sky or UPC.

If Saorview boxes are sufficently cheap, you might get some sports fans picking them up as a second box to view some sporting events in HD. But that won't assist digital switchover one iota as these would be existing digital households getting in a second platform. I've said before that a carrot is needed for DSO - but the kind of people who are reliant on analogue only won't be the type of people that are forking out on HDTVs.

watty

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ are sorely mistaken if they think the availablity of one channel in HD for a few hours each week is going to get people to jump from a platform with hundreds of channels to one with just seven, most of which are already available on either Sky or UPC.

They can't go to full HD service till the 2nd mux is running nationally, only enough space for part time HD on one channel. Then there will be real migration of RTE1, RTE2 and TG4 to HD.

DTT is to get people to move from FOUR analogue channels, one with < 95% coverage and one with 80% coverage. It's not competing with PayTV.

Only the non-existant Boxer/EasyTV etc Pay TV on DTT would have been competing.

Saorview is only a replacement for Analogue. Not a PayTV competitor. It's for people that don't want Pay TV. They have an obligation to supply rather than switching analogue off and leaving only pay TV

Minstrel27

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ are sorely mistaken if they think the availablity of one channel in HD for a few hours each week is going to get people to jump from a platform with hundreds of channels to one with just seven, most of which are already available on either Sky or UPC.

Is Saorview going to be in competition with UPC and Sky?

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ are sorely mistaken if they think the availablity of one channel in HD for a few hours each week is going to get people to jump from a platform with hundreds of channels to one with just seven, most of which are already available on either Sky or UPC.

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Is Saorview going to be in competition with UPC and Sky?

RTÉ has never indicated that Saorview would be a replacement for the pay TV platforms, in fact they have said if viewers want the BBC/ITV channels Sky is one option as they won't be available on DTT.

I think they see HD on DTT as an incentive to get as much receiving equipment in homes converted to DTT as quickly as possible in the next two years so that when ASO happens it will be in the shortest period possible and 120 analogue transmitter sites can be switched off.

As you say one HD channel now but once the second multiplex is up and running and RTÉ's HD capability has been upgraded RTÉ 1 will follow and possibly TG4. If we have TV3/3e SD by ASO it will be a bonus whatever about HD.

I don't expect to see any of RTÉ's HD output on UPC or Sky until ASO has been completed at the earliest.

Minstrel27

The Cush wrote: »

RTÉ has never indicated that Saorview would be a replacement for the pay TV platforms

Exactly, so I don't understand icdg's suggestion that people wont drop a platform with 100's of channels for DTT. It is absurd for anybody to think that.

The Cush

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Exactly, so I don't understand icdg's suggestion that people wont drop a platform with 100's of channels for DTT. It is absurd for anybody to think that.

Unfortunately there is a lot of confusion out there and a lot more to come helped in no small way by the failed lengthy commercial DTT negotations and the failure of the Dept from Jul/Aug 2008 to provide any consumer information on DTT when our DTT standard was selected.

This should hopefully, next month, begin to be resolved with the transition from network engineering tests to a soft public launch of FTA DTT in conjunction with a plain-english public awareness information campaign.

icdg

The problem is the quote from Conor Hayes in the OP:

We propose that the high definition services should be offered on DTT only, thereby giving people an incentive to switch to DTT.

By doing that he is positioning - in RTÉ's mind - DTT as competition for pay-TV. Offering something exclusive to DTT that isn't available on pay-TV in order to entice people away from pay-TV.

RTÉ - irrespective of the fact that in the absence of a commercial player, they effective "own" the DTT platform - shouldn't be biased in favour of one platform. They are a public service broadcaster and like the BBC should be endevouring to ensure that licence fee payers get the full RTÉ service on whatever platform they choose to recieve TV by - whether that's Saorview, UPC, or Sky. They shouldn't be making particular channels exclusive to DTT. Now RTÉ News A Few Hours Ago is one thing, since it isn't a real channel and can be recieved on the internet in any case. But making RTÉ HD exclusive to Saorview is doing a diservice to licence fee payers who have chosen to recieve RTÉ via Sky or UPC and are faced with having two set top boxes* underneath their TV (and the consequent electricity bill and perhaps fiddling about with HDMI cables) in order to recieve the full RTÉ service.

(* OT: I've just illustrated the stupidity of the term set top box, practically no body puts it on top of their set!)

The Cush

icdg wrote: »

(* OT: I've just illustrated the stupidity of the term set top box, practically no body puts it on top of their set!)

Can't blame that on RTÉ.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set-top_box#Ambiguities_in_the_definition

rlogue

Well RTE are being consistent, even if it is consistently stupid.

RTE effectively killed off DAB in Ireland by vetoing the BBC Radio channels from their DAB service and didn't seem to provide much of an incentive for the commercial sector to switch over to DAB.

The same muddled woolly thinking has resulted in RTE thinking that making HD DTT exclusive will encourage people to switch to DTT. They won't. Again if the UK channels were offered down a simple set top antenna then that would have provided a real incentive to switch. People won't just switch for HD. They'll wait until UPC/Sky/Real/Whoever offer RTE in HD on their own platform. That's the reality. We have seen over the years that so-called platform exclusivity doesn't make a damn bit of difference as to whether a platform succeeds or not. ITV was exclusive to ITV Digital and we all know it failed badly when at the same time Sky boomed without ITV. However this does show that not only are RTE incapable of understanding the actual market out there, they are going to make the same mistakes other operators made 10 years ago.

Saorsat is another case in point. The only real benefit of Saorsat is that it provides a figleaf to RTE who can now say their channels are FTA on satellite. TV3 are absolutely silent on Saorsat and I wonder if they will be there at all. The only benefit that Saorsat brings is if satellite internet can piggy back onto the Irish beam and if the cost of satellite internet plummets. Digiweb and Tooway must be looking forward to it in that case.

RTE might think they are innovators but they aren't. They have acted for too long as a brake on the development of digital broadcasting in Ireland and as a result we are 10 years behind the rest of Europe and indeed the world on digital TV rollout.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

TV3 are absolutely silent on Saorsat and I wonder if they will be there at all.

At least they're consistent, they've adopted the same position on Saorview. :rolleyes:

STB

icdg wrote: »

By doing that he is positioning - in RTÉ's mind - DTT as competition for pay-TV. Offering something exclusive to DTT that isn't available on pay-TV in order to entice people away from pay-TV.

RTÉ - irrespective of the fact that in the absence of a commercial player, they effective "own" the DTT platform - shouldn't be biased in favour of one platform. They are a public service broadcaster and like the BBC should be endevouring to ensure that licence fee payers get the full RTÉ service on whatever platform they choose to recieve TV by - whether that's Saorview, UPC, or Sky. They shouldn't be making particular channels exclusive to DTT. Now RTÉ News A Few Hours Ago is one thing, since it isn't a real channel and can be recieved on the internet in any case. But making RTÉ HD exclusive to Saorview is doing a diservice to licence fee payers who have chosen to recieve RTÉ via Sky or UPC and are faced with having two set top boxes* underneath their TV (and the consequent electricity bill and perhaps fiddling about with HDMI cables) in order to recieve the full RTÉ service.

(* OT: I've just illustrated the stupidity of the term set top box, practically no body puts it on top of their set!)

Ah platform neutrality, a wonderful subject, depending on which side you are on of course.

RTE's PSB basic remit is to provide FREE universal coverage to the country. Given that people also watch TV via PAY services (and that is an individuals personal perogative) RTE etc are also available via those pay means. It is not a requirement to sign up to pay services in order to receive the PSB though.

I totally disagree with the claim that it is RTE positioning themselves. It would seem obvious to me that in their interest to be available on as many platforms as possible in order for the station to survive. If this involves cable and satellite pay operators obviously then it is a no brainer.

Just because they initially intend on carrying a part time HD service on one platform means absolutely nothing.

Positively, it could be seen as an incentive to get people in the ASO and DSO buzz. Good, there are plenty of licence payers in this country who depend on terrestrial TV. There are also plenty who quite rightly expect to be able to get it without subscription.

The BBC up until last year were the only station that had platform neutrality when it came to HD. It took ITV a lot longer. To this day Ch4HD is not platform neutral and they are a PSB! Oh yes they are on as pay channels via Sky alright but are they FTA on satellite ? No they are not and we all can guess why. Sky sure as hell arent shouting platform neutrality.

In the current state of affairs, anyone who doesnt see Saorview/Saorsat/Freesat combined in one Free to Air box with with no bills as an alternative to subscription cable or satellite needs a serious reality check.

rlogue wrote: »

RTE might think they are innovators but they aren't. They have acted for too long as a brake on the development of digital broadcasting in Ireland and as a result we are 10 years behind the rest of Europe and indeed the world on digital TV rollout.

10 years behind SOME countries what in terms of launch ? Rollout and DSO ? Maybe.
In any event, in terms of technology, we seem to have got it right in my opinion. A lot of early adopters or "digital pioneers" will be facing another DSO when they have to catch up with the technology of now.

rlogue

Digital TV technology is constantly evolving. Maybe we should wait another five years and see what technology is available then before we switch to digital TV.

And what other countries in Europe and the English speaking world are yet to launch a public digital TV service?

watty

icdg wrote: »

The problem is the quote from Conor Hayes in the OP:



By doing that he is positioning - in RTÉ's mind - DTT as competition for pay-TV. Offering something exclusive to DTT that isn't available on pay-TV in order to entice people away from pay-TV.


(* OT: I've just illustrated the stupidity of the term set top box, practically no body puts it on top of their set!)

They want people to get Aerial + DTT as well. No-one is going to give up Pay TV for DTT on its own any more than give up pay TV for Analogue on its own. DTT (or Saorsat) + Freesat (or Freeview) is a partial competitor to Pay TV, if you don't need Sky Sport.

Set top Box is a term from 1950s (ITV set top box for Band I only TVs) to 1980s (Cable TV mostly) when TVs had 70 degree or 90 degree tubes rather than 110 degree and full depth cabinets. Then they moved to moulded backs extending only over tube and 1/2 depth cabinets in Transistor era (Mid 1970s).

Obviously you can't put a "set-box" on top. Though how long before rear clip-on like "net-top" PCs with no buttons, only sockets?

Macy0161

Would Sky even be able to handle the way RTE are going to do HD, with switching between SD and HD? They'd end up with blocked content for those with a SD receiver, and how would they fit it in with their additional HD sub?

Regardless, I don't see the problem with RTE pushing DTT by any means they can to ensure timely DSO and saving the organisation, and by extension the licence payer, money.

watty

rlogue wrote: »

Digital TV technology is constantly evolving. Maybe we should wait another five years and see what technology is available then before we switch to digital TV.

There will be little or no further development. Unfortunately DVB-T2 is a little too late in getting commercialised. The Original DVB-T launches ignored allocating space for HDTV, even though HDTV already exsisted prior to DVB-T. Hence need for DVB-T2 in some countries as they have the double inefficiency of having to simulcast HD and SD with the SD in MPEG2 rather than MPEG4. That means 50% more space used than for Countries doing HD only or hybrid SD/HD per program (no simulcast). I'll not start an argument here about how much space DVB-T2 really saves.

The only reason the Government is bothering to push this and not leave us as last Analogue Europe, is the Digital Dividend:

From http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/digital-dividend

... Governments also realised that up to half the UHF TV band or more could then be reclaimed and auctioned off to other applications (Mobile Phones, Wireless Internet). This is the so called Digital Dividend. Money for Governments and big Telecom Companies by squeezing the existing analogue TV into a smaller space and turning off Analogue TV ...

watty

Macy0161 wrote: »

Would Sky even be able to handle the way RTE are going to do HD, with switching between SD and HD? They'd end up with blocked content for those with a SD receiver, and how would they fit it in with their additional HD sub?

On Sky or UPC there has to be HD and SD RTE if HD is added. Also Sky & UPC have to pay all the costs of carriage, EPG and encryption. It can't be FTA or FTV.

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

On Sky or UPC there has to be HD and SD RTE if HD is added. Also Sky & UPC have to pay all the costs of carriage, EPG and encryption. It can't be FTA or FTV.

So the giving out about RTE not making it available to Sky/ UPC wasn't justified in the first feckin place then!

rlogue

Damn right it's justified. RTE should not be in the business of favouring one platform over another. We are so far behind in implementing HD so it's ridiculous that anyone who already subscribes to a Pay TV service should be forced to install another system just get our national channels in HD.

Apogee

rlogue wrote: »

Damn right it's justified. RTE should not be in the business of favouring one platform over another.

Why should RTÉ facilitate multinational corporations whose sole objective is to make money and whose profits go entirely overseas? And in the case of one of the corporations, doesn't even pay VAT to the Irish exchequer.

We are so far behind in implementing HD so it's ridiculous that anyone who already subscribes to a Pay TV service should be forced to install another system just get our national channels in HD.

Nobody is forcing anyone to subscribe to Pay TV. Anyone who does subscribe to Pay TV knows exactly what channels they are getting when they do sign up. If either UPC or Sky are concerned enough about their Irish customers, I'm sure they can do a deal with RTÉ and pay for the HD content by taking a small cut in their profits.

watty

At present RTE are basically "giving away" Content to Sky and UPC, Sky and UPC should be paying for this. I'm sure come next q2 2011 if Sky actually offers the going European Rate for RTE HD content there will be RTE HD on Sky.

Sky do after all Pay the BBC for NI content on Sky ROI, even though people in Ireland can get it free (and more BBC) on Freesat.

The Cush

Macy0161 wrote: »

Would Sky even be able to handle the way RTE are going to do HD, with switching between SD and HD? They'd end up with blocked content for those with a SD receiver, and how would they fit it in with their additional HD sub?

I think the assumption here is that it will be mixed 576 SD and 1080 HD. It is indicated that it will be true 1080 HD for live events i.e. the HD light part and up-converted SD to HD for the other material.

RTÉ has stated the following in the tech spec doc

The first stage of the project will up-convert much of the RTÉ 2 schedule of programmes from SD to HD for transmission.

The required RTÉ 2 HD playout system will enable the transmission of live and recorded events in native HD. All of the existing RTE 2 SD content (i.e. programmes, commercials, studio inserts etc.) will be up-converted to HD for transmission, and transmitted around the native HD events. In effect the Pres schedule and all programme content will be identical on RTÉ 2 SD and on RTÉ 2 HD, with different quality pictures being presented on each service.

The only variant of RTÉ 2 on the DTT platform will be RTÉ HD

The diagrams in the document (pages 8 & 9) only shows an HD stream going to DTT for transmission with an SD stream for UPC & Sky.

lawhec

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ - irrespective of the fact that in the absence of a commercial player, they effective "own" the DTT platform - shouldn't be biased in favour of one platform. They are a public service broadcaster and like the BBC should be endevouring to ensure that licence fee payers get the full RTÉ service on whatever platform they choose to recieve TV by - whether that's Saorview, UPC, or Sky. They shouldn't be making particular channels exclusive to DTT. Now RTÉ News A Few Hours Ago is one thing, since it isn't a real channel and can be recieved on the internet in any case. But making RTÉ HD exclusive to Saorview is doing a diservice to licence fee payers who have chosen to recieve RTÉ via Sky or UPC and are faced with having two set top boxes* underneath their TV (and the consequent electricity bill and perhaps fiddling about with HDMI cables) in order to recieve the full RTÉ service.

Two things, one is that the BBC personally rent their broadcast satellite capacity. RTÉ don't, it is sub-let (effectively gratis) through BSkyB. Therefore RTÉ have more flexibility with DVB-T in the present, RTÉ's (& TV3 & TG4) agreement with BSkyB will be for distribution of certain programmes. If this is anything like deals done with terrestrial broadcasters, there will be various clauses regarding channel availability and the launch of new services within the time frame of the contract. If I'm to speculate, by the time contract renewal takes place any HD services being provided at this stage by the terrestrial broadcasters will be talked about in a new agreement.

Second, the BBC isn't quite "platform neutral", while their eight channels (on six streams) are available on all digital platforms, interactive services vary a great deal. DTT for a long time was already a poor relation on this which up until about a year ago had two interactive streams and a mini three screen news multi-screen service. This was reduced last year to use a single interactive video stream and the news multi-screen disappeared for the sake of preparing DTT in the UK for HD, whereas on satellite (Sky & Freesat) and cable, much more varied interactive services remain including a six mini screen news multi-screen service and six SD streams for events such as sport as and when needed. So while the BBC have capacity on satellite to experiment with additional services (their BBC HD channel was available for several years until it just launched on Freeview HD areas where it is currently available) that they don't have the space to do so on DTT, it's the reverse at present with RTÉ.

lawhec

rlogue wrote: »

RTE effectively killed off DAB in Ireland by vetoing the BBC Radio channels from their DAB service and didn't seem to provide much of an incentive for the commercial sector to switch over to DAB.

rlogue wrote: »

Again if the UK channels were offered down a simple set top antenna then that would have provided a real incentive to switch. People won't just switch for HD.

There's a major elephant in the room regarding both of the above though - who would pay for the distribution, rights and broadcast of such services? Also, for DAB there is a question of (a) capacity and (b) possible objections by commercial broadcasters.

rlogue wrote: »

Saorsat is another case in point. The only real benefit of Saorsat is that it provides a figleaf to RTE who can now say their channels are FTA on satellite.

The intention as I see it for Saorsat is to fulfil coverage guarantees for viewers in the state who won't receive satisfactory signals from the DTT network for (at the very least) PSB channels in the same spirit that is done in other European countries. The Saorsat set up just happens to be a very cost effective one which in the current climate is very heavily weighted for.

rlogue wrote: »

TV3 are absolutely silent on Saorsat and I wonder if they will be there at all.

Unless someone has pointed out otherwise, my understanding is for Saorsat to mirror what is available on Saorview, so if/when TV3 go on Saorview, they should appear on Saorsat at the same time.

STB

Some eventually will put a big push on a HD Combo all in one solution for DTT and Sat.

These products are mainly unknown outside of techie boards!

People's viewing habits already show that people dont have to subscribe to Sky or UPC to watch FTA UK programming let alone Irish programming. They just dont know that..... yet.

I suspect its a case of the green eyed monster here for the diaspora !! :eek:

rlogue

STB wrote: »

I suspect its a case of the green eyed monster here for the diaspora !! :eek:

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

The Cush

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

And because of that (economic situation) looking less likely that even RTÉ International will see the light of day.

FREETV

The Cush wrote: »

And because of that (economic situation) looking less likely that even RTÉ International will see the light of day.

And we all know who are the culprits involved and to blame for the economic situation at the moment and it isn't RTE while we all suffer with more hardship and less tv choices, in particular expats in the case of RTE International. Maybe at the end of 2013?

rlogue

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

Are all irish made programmes available internationally on rte player now? Is that not a half way house in the circumstances?

Macy0161

rlogue wrote: »

There's a lot of us out there and the numbers are growing daily. Only in Ireland does everyone pretend we don't exist. You might be one of us one day.

There should be a (Government funded) RTE International - based around RTE News Now has been my past suggestion.

However, that's a different arguement to what RTE is choosing to do with satellite - for once they've made an extremely cost effective solution for the licence payer. RTE is fulfilling it's remit.

rlogue

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Scratchy postage stamp videos on the RTÉ player is better than nothing but when I consider that RTÉ are prepared to spend €1.5 million on a Saorsat system that cannot be received outside Ireland when they could have had RTÉ International on satellite across Europe for less.

I was explictly told by RTÉ that they did not have the money to spend on a European satellite service - but now that RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders - we now have €1.5 million to fritter on a satellite service only the really desperate will fork out for?

At least if the service was on 28.5 and FTV there would have been a back door to RTE for the ever growing diaspora. With this Saorsat approach we will be ignored yet again.

watty

That 1.5M is instead of 30M to 50M roll out costs and high running costs for a further 100 DTT sites. It's got nothing to do with "Satellite" or RTE International. It's using a satellite technology to save money on the primary remit of FTA TV in Ireland. It's cheap for the 2% to 7% that can't ever get Terrestrial when there are only 51 instead of 150 DTT sites.

Saorsat is NOT a competing satellite service to Sky, Freesat, Real or anyone else. It's LOCAL terrestrial "fill in" and the absolutely cheapest method of supplying those 2% to 7% of people. The alternative for all of Saorview to those people would never ever have been on 28.2 (Sky or Real FTV card). The alternative would be building another 100 DTT sites and fibre/microwave links to them with no backup.

RTE NL is in serious financial difficulty and difficulty in meeting primary remit of Irish viewers in Ireland if the Ka-sat launch fails. They would have to build out more DTT as the lesser evil. FTV satellite @28E would be more expensive and for HD the rights holders would ask difficult questions.

Because FTV is a failure to limit content geographically and now the Rights Holders know this.

28.2E would cost 25M p.a. for a copy of Saorview FTV and need legislation (for FTV card) and WOULD absolutely not be for people outside Ireland even if it did exist unless they lied about address. It would give up control to pay Operator.

RTE International needs to be done, and IMO in USA, Australia, Canada etc but with UK as lowest priority. Soarsat puts no obstacles in the way of an RTE International on 28.2E at all. In fact it saves so much capacity (scarce) on 28.2E and so much money it makes it easier!

RTE International can't have a higher priority than the digital rollout for people in Ireland. The Indigenous channels can't be broadcast to a UK audience.

STB

rlogue wrote: »

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Scratchy postage stamp videos on the RTÉ player is better than nothing but when I consider that RTÉ are prepared to spend €1.5 million on a Saorsat system that cannot be received outside Ireland when they could have had RTÉ International on satellite across Europe for less.

I was explictly told by RTÉ that they did not have the money to spend on a European satellite service - but now that RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders - we now have €1.5 million to fritter on a satellite service only the really desperate will fork out for?

At least if the service was on 28.5 and FTV there would have been a back door to RTE for the ever growing diaspora. With this Saorsat approach we will be ignored yet again.

Statutory remit.
"in so far as RTE considers reasonably practicable".

I would imagine that economic circumstances will dictate the reasonable nature of any such broadcasts in the current climate. After all they have just spent a shed load of cash building the new digital infrastructure.

The satellite service is driven by economics of providing universal coverage for the island for DSO rather than little fill in's here and there. It may well be well spent in that regard.

I dont think its deliberate forgetfullness Richard. Economics and priorities probably are ruling the day though for the moment. Hey at least you can the stations on Sky.

watty

RTÉ NL have ensured there is no commercial DTT by hardballing the winning and second commercial DTT bidders

Commercial DTT is a very high risk in Ireland.
The Money RTE NL was looking for was modest and even with the Bond if Boxer or Easy had gone bust after 2 years(very likely if either had gone ahead), RTE NL would have been out of pocket.

RTE NL bought gear assuming Pay DTT was happening. They didn't block it. Independent assessment didn't think the charges too high.

Commercial DTT was Government Doctrine. Not a real-world possibility for the Irish Market with almost Pay TV saturation, only one local PayTV channel and all the best content available free from PSB mux and FTA via Freesat or cancelled Sky Sub.

The highest viewed pay channels are watched less than 2% People were not going to pay €10 a month for UK TV on DTT when it's free. If they really want pay TV, DTT can't compete with Sky & UPC.

How much is the Government funding Digital Rollout?

How much will Government make from the Digital Dividend? (selling off Spectrum) Enough to pay for RTE International for probably 10 years...

Macy0161

rlogue wrote: »

RTÉ are not fullfiling their remit and frankly no one would watch RTÉ News Now abroad. Have you ever lived outside Ireland?

Obviously not if you think a constant diet of news bulletins will do for the diaspora.

What most people want outside Ireland is access to RTÉ's home produced programmes, including the Late Late and Fair City and very importantly, GAA coverage delayed if necessary.

Tara Television fulfilled that remit but then RTÉ shut it down just prior to the Sky deal going ahead. Now the legislation explicitly states that RTÉ should provide a satellite TV service for the diaspora (and not just in the UK).

Actually I did, for 20 plus years, when all we had was the editted down Late Late that Channel 4 carried. Wasn't the internet option of RTE player back in those days.

RTE News Now already has Prime Time and Front Line. It could easily be extended to include Nationwide/ Capital D, and possibly the late late if there were no rights issues over some of the content. The real clamour, imo, is for the Sports Coverage. This is totally unrealistic anyway - the GAA will never allow that, nothing to do with RTE.

The Saorsat solution is for the Island of Ireland, rather than a back door RTE International.

STB

Most home produced and delayed or full delayed coverage of GAA is available on the RTE player and is not geoblocked as far as I am aware.

The GAA themselves obiously dictate the rules on delayed.