CHEMTRAILS

RoboClam

demonspawn wrote: »

Because the conditions required for the formation of clouds do not always exist. The water that condenses on particles from the exhaust is already in the atmosphere. There is some moisture that comes from the jet fuel, but the majority of that moisture already exists in the atmosphere.

Also, if you're familiar with how jet engines work, all the air that exits the back of the engine actually comes from the front of the engine to begin with. Jets take in massive amounts of air from the surrounding atmosphere, compress it through a tube at high speed which is then mixed with a combustible material (jet fuel), ignited, then is expelled out the back. Most, if not all, of that moisture released out the back is already present in the surrounding atmosphere.

I do not argue with anything here. Your reply is entirely logical and you clearly have an understanding of this. So forgetting chemtrails for a moment, do you agree that contrails can be created in this way?* I just would like to know exactly what you feel is the problem with the theory of the formation of "traditional" contrails.

*By this way, I mean water freezing around the aerosols of jet fuel.

demonspawn

RoboClam wrote: »

I do not argue with anything here. Your reply is entirely logical and you clearly have an understanding of this. So forgetting chemtrails for a moment, do you agree that contrails can be created in this way?* I just would like to know exactly what you feel is the problem with the theory of the formation of "traditional" contrails.

*By this way, I mean water freezing around the aerosols of jet fuel.

Absolutely I believe contrails are created in the same way and persistent contrails are entirely possible on a cloudy day (although jets fly much higher than where clouds usually form, and in much lower pressure, so not entirely sure) but to say that a contrail can persist on a perfectly clear day when no other clouds are able to form is just illogical. This is why normal contrails disappear fairly quickly on a clear day, they just cannot persist in those conditions.

RoboClam

demonspawn wrote: »

Absolutely I believe contrails are created in the same way and persistent contrails are entirely possible on a cloudy day (although jets fly much higher than where clouds usually form, and in much lower pressure, so not entirely sure) but to say that a contrail can persist on a perfectly clear day when no other clouds are able to form is just illogical. This is why normal contrails disappear fairly quickly on a clear day, they just cannot persist in those conditions.

I'll admit that specific aspects of climate are not my strong point, but from what I understand, even on a clear day the atmosphere can still be a moisture rich. The addition of the aerosols in jet fuel act nearly as a catalyst, which then allows for further clouds to form. I'm open to correction on this.

RoboClam

demonspawn wrote: »

Absolutely I believe contrails are created in the same way and persistent contrails are entirely possible on a cloudy day (although jets fly much higher than where clouds usually form, and in much lower pressure, so not entirely sure) but to say that a contrail can persist on a perfectly clear day when no other clouds are able to form is just illogical. This is why normal contrails disappear fairly quickly on a clear day, they just cannot persist in those conditions.

I found a good article on this actually which you may be interested in.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6X19-4GJM3SX-4&_user=10&_coverDate=06/30/2005&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_origin=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=23324b00fd08f44df25daa03a6ea0f53&searchtype=a

4. Persistent contrails
Contrails are short-lived when the ambient air is dry, with relative humidity below saturation over an ice surface so that the
ice particles forming in the contrail evaporate. Often, contrails disappear after seconds to minutes, between one and several ten
kilometres behind the aircraft.
Contrails persist if the ambient humidity is larger than saturation humidity over ice surfaces (relative humidity over ice RHi
larger than 100%). In such ice-supersaturated air masses, the ice particles within the contrails grow by deposition of water
vapour molecules from the ambient air. Contrails may persist as long as the ambient air in which the contrail forms stays
ice-supersaturated [32].
Although the first detection of ice-supersaturation in the upper troposphere dates back at least to the 1940s [33–35], it
was generally believed that ice-supersaturation occurs only exceptionally, and that clouds of ice particles form soon after the
humidity exceeds saturation. Most weather and climate models still assume that cirrus clouds form immediately when the
humidity reaches ice saturation. Examples are the operational weather prediction model of the European Centre for Medium-
Range Weather Forecasts and climate models derived from it [36].
However, evidence for ice supersaturation occurring in the free atmosphere is available to observers in terms of cirrus
fallstreaks that grow while falling through supersaturated air layers [37] and, in fact, by persistent contrails [35]. Although
contrails are often observed to form in or near cirrus clouds [38,30], contrails can form and persist even when no cirrus clouds
are around [9].
Contrails form and persist also in weakly ice-supersaturated air. However, the formation of cirrus requires higher relative
humidity than for contrail persistence: Ice particles form from the abundant small droplets by homogeneous freezing only at
high relative humidity with respect to ice-saturation, at RHi of the order 145 to 165% or higher [39]. Also the formation of
ice particles by heterogeneous nucleation often requires RHi of 110% or more [27] (with few exceptions such as desert dust
particles). Often, RHi is large enough to let contrails persist and develop into cirrus but not large enough to let cirrus clouds
form naturally. Since contrail persistence requires at least ice saturation, a sky full of contrails but without natural cirrus shows
that cases occur with humidity above ice-saturation but below the threshold for cirrus formation.
The existence of ice-supersaturated air masses in the free atmosphere has been confirmed by several airborne measurements
in the last decade with various types of hygrometers on aircraft [40–46], with carefully calibrated and corrected hygrometers on
radiosondes [47], and with satellite data [48–50].
Fig. 5. Relative humidity with respect to liquid water versus ambient temperature. The thin full curve denotes the relative humidity for ice
saturation. The dashed line denotes liquid saturation. The symbols denote measured data as derived from a frostpoint hygrometer (Ovarlez
et al. [43]) and temperature sensors (extended from Schumann et al. [44]). The pair of curves with various line notations represent the relative
humidity for constant water vapour content at various temperatures.

As shown by Fig. 5, more than 40% of all data collected during a measurement campaign over the North Atlantic [43,
44] were taken in ice-supersaturated regions. Measurements on modern airliners [51] indicated that such aircraft fly in icesupersaturated
air masses about 15% of the flight time [42].
Ice-supersaturated air masses form in regions with rising air motion and are partially filled with cirrus clouds [52]. Regions
with ice supersaturation have been found with horizontal extensions of the order 150 km [53] and vertical extensions of about
500 m in the mean [47]. Supersaturation is also observed at least occasionally in the lower stratosphere up to the hygropause in
the polar winter and also, rarely [47,54], in the lower stratosphere at mid-latitudes and in the tropics up to a about one kilometre
above the local tropopause [55,56].
The area size of the regions with ice-supersaturated air masses defines the potential contrail cover which would appear if
aircraft were to fly everywhere and at all times. Global distribution maps of ice-supersaturated regions have been produced from
satellite data [48] and from analysis of meteorological data [57]. Such analysis suggests that the global average contrail cover
(partially overlapping with cirrus clouds) could approach 16% [57]. Over Europe, the potential contrail cover reaches 12%,
which is consistent with estimates derived from satellite observations of the size of regions with clusters of persistent contrails
[58] and by in situ humidity measurements [42,53]. If these numbers were realised it would mean a very large change in high
cloudiness. For comparison, the mean high cloud (cirrus) cover at northern mid-latitudes is about 20–30% according to different
observations [59,60]. Subvisible clouds with optical depths below about 0.03 are even more abundant [61].

wingsof daun

http://rapidfire.sci.gsfc.nasa.gov/subsets/?project=fas&subset=Europe_2_01.2010243.terra.250m

This shows quite an array of chemtrails/contrails and might explain why people have been seeing a lot of them in the skies recently. The intensity on that particular day seems higher than any other day of the last month. The grey cloudy areas are trails that were dispersed much earlier and had diffused.

joebucks

wingsof daun wrote: »

This shows quite an array of chemtrails/contrails and might explain why people have been seeing a lot of them in the skies recently.

Thanks for link but can't really see how it might explain why we have been seeing them.

Jeboa Safari

documentry on rte2 about them now

demonspawn

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2sZiYY9QA8

Endemic goitre was prevalent in the population of Derbyshire in the UK for many centuries until it declined from the 1930s. A contemporary medical survey showed that endemicity of goitre was particularly higher in the Carboniferous limestone areas of the Derbyshire-Peak District. Unlike classical goitrous areas of the world, where the distribution of goitre has been found to be related to the iodine content in the environment, there is no such relationship reported for the Derbyshire-Peak District area. The present study reviews the presence of endemic goitre in this area with reference to iodine in different environmental media using past and present data. In comparison with the world average values, the iodine contents in the soil and sediment in the Peak District are not deficient, but compared to England, Wales and Scotland averages, these levels are low. As no information on the mobility and bioavailability of iodine of this area is available, a cautious approach is necessary before any assumption is made on the aetiology of endemic goitre. The study also discusses some hypotheses relating to the possible cause of endemic goitre in the limestone areas. Further research needs are suggested depending on the land use and geochemistry of the Peak District to determine the underlying causes of the former endemic goitre in this area.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/u63gv355r1156773/

wingsof daun

joebucks wrote: »

Thanks for link but can't really see how it might explain why we have been seeing them.

No, it doesn't explain why we are seeing them. Where I live the haze from them was unreal that day, the sky looked white when it should have been a clear blue. An uninformed person would think it was due to humidity or moisture in the atmostphere.
I think we are seeing them because it's a sign of the times. The is a lot of scandalous things going on. No-one has explained them fully to us, and told us what is in them, and what "benefit" these trails are to the country. I feel they have very small benefits and very big hazards, due to heavy metal deposition for example. It's common sense that those metals end up in everything eventually, including humans.

seensensee

Chemtrails, Contrails, by what ever name are doing a great job at shielding the earth from excessive sunlight and so protecting us from the dangers of global warming....

"Another scheme considered by the Copenhagen Consensus Centre is one to mimic the effects of volcanic eruptions in shielding the sun's rays with a chemical haze and creating a global cooling effect that can last for over a year."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/5987229/Cloud-ship-scheme-to-deflect-the-suns-rays-is-favourite-to-cut-global-warming.html


...and when it comes to trails let's not forget about the existing ships...


ship-tracks tend to cool the global climate,

http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap08/contrail.html

demonspawn

seensensee wrote: »

Chemtrails, Contrails, by what ever name are doing a great job at shielding the earth from excessive sunlight and so protecting us from the dangers of global warming....

"Another scheme considered by the Copenhagen Consensus Centre is one to mimic the effects of volcanic eruptions in shielding the sun's rays with a chemical haze and creating a global cooling effect that can last for over a year."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/environment/globalwarming/5987229/Cloud-ship-scheme-to-deflect-the-suns-rays-is-favourite-to-cut-global-warming.html


...and when it comes to trails let's not forget about the existing ships...


ship-tracks tend to cool the global climate,

http://www-das.uwyo.edu/~geerts/cwx/notes/chap08/contrail.html

If that's what they're up to then great! So why not just tell us? Is it because they know that by doing this they are dooming a few generations to a fate of poor health and possibly death? Are they sacrificing us for the future of the human race? They are playing god with our lives and it's understandable why we would object.

seensensee

demonspawn wrote: »

If that's what they're up to then great! So why not just tell us? Is it because they know that by doing this they are dooming a few generations to a fate of poor health and possibly death? Are they sacrificing us for the future of the human race? They are playing god with our lives and it's understandable why we would object.

I've got to reserve my MHO regarding the weather and hand you over to someone who may convince why your objections are futile...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0

seensensee

"The study is reported in the latest issue of the journal 'Climate Dynamics' titled 'Albedo enhancement of marine clouds to counteract global warming: impacts on the hydrological cycle.'

Bala said the number of marine cloud droplets could be increased by spraying tiny droplets of sea water into the marine atmosphere. Salt particles in sea water serve as seeds for many tiny cloud droplets.

"For uniform reductions in sunlight over land and oceans, our earlier modelling work showed that the planet could become drier.

"However, when you selectively reduce the sunlight over only the ocean surface by whitening only the marine clouds (which we have done in the current model), a monsoonal circulation is triggered which increases the rainfall. We find an increase of 7.5 per cent in the overall water budget over land," Bala said. "
http://www.zeenews.com/news642368.html

demonspawn

seensensee wrote: »

I've got to reserve my MHO regarding the weather and hand you over to someone who may convince why your objections are futile...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5dBZDSSky0

You reckon Carlin was murdered for the things he said on that tour? It think it's highly probable. Notice how the crowd really didn't know how to react? It's like they were just pimp slapped with reality. That dude wasn't finished with what he had to say, no way his heart just stopped. R.I.P. George, we're gonna prove your cranky old ass wrong.

joebucks

demonspawn wrote: »

You reckon Carlin was murdered for the things he said on that tour?

Carlin was a total hero but I don't really suspect foul play. He lived a real fast-paced/ hard living life and was even in rehab in as recently as 2004 for drink/ prescription drug prob, so that **** takes it toll and I think he did great to make it to 70.

However I would not be surprised if it did someday come out that he was taken out. He defo knew the agenda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pow5_UYKaJ8

joebucks

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

documentry on rte2 about them now

It's a pity they not given permission to test the fuel from the US Air force jets.

My name is URL

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

documentry on rte2 about them now

What was the name of the documentary? I didn't catch it.. thanks

joebucks

My name is URL wrote: »

What was the name of the documentary? I didn't catch it.. thanks

Best evidence.

Thanks to Jeboa Safari for the heads up.

humanji

My name is URL wrote: »

What was the name of the documentary? I didn't catch it.. thanks

You didn't miss much. I've seen a couple of those shows and they never give anything concrete and always stray away from the points being made. It's like they were designed so that believers will say "Ah ha! This proves it's happening." and skeptics will say "Ah ha! This proves that it's not happening."

It's more entertainment that actually trying to come to any conclusion.

seensensee

demonspawn wrote: »

R.I.P. George, we're gonna prove your cranky old ass wrong.

In regard to conchemtrails how is he wrong? The owners have explicitly expressed their intentions to control the weather ect ect.

joebucks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kjt2hsv1aLw

My name is URL

^^ Is there any mention of that anywhere other than on YouTube? It looks bizarre.. but it could be pilots practicing formation flying?

joebucks

My name is URL wrote: »

^^ Is there any mention of that anywhere other than on YouTube? It looks bizarre.. but it could be pilots practicing formation flying?

Not that I have found. I'll keep looking. Weird ****.

joebucks

Another good vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaQV4fYzB3U

thecommander

joebucks wrote: »

Another good vid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaQV4fYzB3U

I'd bet he lives under a flightpath, hence multiple contrails.

joebucks

thecommander wrote: »

I'd bet he lives under a flightpath, hence multiple contrails.

How much are you willing to wager? I'll give you 2/1 on that..

demonspawn

humanji wrote: »

You didn't miss much. I've seen a couple of those shows and they never give anything concrete and always stray away from the points being made. It's like they were designed so that believers will say "Ah ha! This proves it's happening." and skeptics will say "Ah ha! This proves that it's not happening."

It's more entertainment that actually trying to come to any conclusion.

Like the X Files? Yeah, CT is big business. Just as Alex Jones and that other fruitcake David Icke.

joebucks

demonspawn wrote: »

Like the X Files? Yeah, CT is big business. Just as Alex Jones and that other fruitcake David Icke.

This is funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_4TZ7EM11g

demonspawn

joebucks wrote: »

This is funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_4TZ7EM11g

Ahahaha!!! Alex Jones took a big dump in the punch bowl with that whole "Climatgate" nonsense. That's when I stopped listening to anything he has to say. Irony, gotta love it. They're both just riding the wave of CT to make a fast buck and to make all CTers look like loonies. I know some are but many are not.

thecommander

joebucks wrote: »

How much are you willing to wager? I'll give you 2/1 on that..

Seeing as the video was taken in Herts (according to Youtube tags), which is about 30 miles from Stansted Airport, I'd say the chances are good.