Castletown

Davidth88

People

I was down by the river at Castletown Hse yesterday ( wasn't it a lovely day )

Its a real shame that the place is destroyed by broken glass , beer cans , litter and other evidence of ' goings on '

The picnic benches that we used to enjoy by the house have been removed ' due to vandalism '

What can be done to stop the drinking and other undesirable activities in the Castletown Hse parklands ?

The Raven.

David, you are right to be concerned about the litter and vandalism in Castletown. It is going on all around the place and it is unforgivable. I don't know what the solution is other than more parental supervision and guidance. Perhaps things might improve somewhat now that the schools are open again. It is grossly unfair that is left to others to clean up the mess after the litter louts and vandals.

Castletown

I think that a park ranger would make a difference and perhaps with his contact number posted in key locations around the grounds , so that we the people can act as watchdogs and phone him/her when necessary. The security at present seems to be confined to the area around the house. A park ranger along the river bank would make a great difference and perhaps at the main gates as this seems to be where youngsters are openly bringing in bags and boxes of beer, up from the town. Petrol this area even for a short period and take all beer from the youths. In conjunction with the local gardai run an intense campaign over a month or so. They might move off. There is no reason for them to move at the moment as nobody seems to bother them. The OPW need to make more of an effort.

airmax87

a park ranger wouldnt be able to catch a gang of 25 drunk teens, nor dirtbikes.
not going to help.

Joe Public

It is still down to the Gardai to enforce the laws as drinking in public places is breaking the law. If these uncivil law breakers people keep getting away with it then they will keep doing it.

Castletown

I agree that a park ranger wouldn't be able to catch them. However if the river area was patrolled and the groups had to run off every time two rangers drove or cycled past or else have their names given to the guards that would be a nuisance to the youngsters. At the moment they can sit for hours in the one spot with great comfort. So make life uncomfortable for them, organise a serious campaign with the guards for a short time and just maybe they might move off. The guards won't police this area forever. We had problems where I live and the guards organised a foot patrol for a week or so , they lads moved off and never came back. The problem at the moment is that nothing is being done to enforce the law. Just look at the adults who allow their dogs dirt all over the place and run wild, despite all the signs erected . I love dogs and keep mine on a lead. The OPW need to find away or at least make an effort to enforce the rules of the parklands as happens in Stephen's green and several other opw sites. Perhaps dogs could be allowed off their leads at certain times. At the moment you can do as you please in Castletown. Bring in bye laws and more staff to enforce them. The great restoration works that are being done in Castletown are being destroyed by a minority. It is heart breaking to see trees/ benches etc burnt.

Joe Public

We have plenty of laws, it's the enforcement that's lacking. Moving on trouble makers is not the solution as they just find somewhere else to cause mayhem.

Castletown

There is no ideal solution. But this thread asked about Castletown . At the moment there is no bye law to allow staff at Castletown to enforce that dogs are kept on leads. So the signs are meaningless . However KCC can pass bye laws that will give authorisation to enforce the rules. For example to allow for specific times for dogs to be off leads.

I don't think that the OPW staff can change the minds of these lads and Lassies out drinking , that is not their brief, but they do have a duty to protect this site for all of us and if that means moving anti social activities out of Castletown then in my view they have done their Job. They can not be expected to change the anti-social mentality problems of our society.But it is their duty to protect Castletown for all of us to use and enjoy safely. I feel at the moment not enough is being done.There is probably a lack of funds to pay for more ground staff.

Joe Public

Is Castletown estate a public place or not? Is it governed by the laws that pertain to public places?

Castletown

The bye laws pertaining to parks vary from Council to Council. The OPW could make a request to KCC for a bye law to deal with the problems in Castletown regarding the dogs, but this would not apply to St, Stephen's Green.

Joe Public

I mean the common law for all public places where a dog must always be on a lead and drinking in public places is also not allowed.

Castletown

I understand what you are saying, but there is a grey area. My understanding is at least in relation to the dogs that until you see a sign up indicating that Castletown is governed by specific bye laws that the staff have no authority to call in the dog warden to issue fines. Perhaps they could call the guards but that is not going to happen.

We all know that you can't drink in public places but we also know that this is not enforced. So I still think that the OPW require more ground staff to make any real attempt to deal with this problem in conjunction with the guards . The guards will say lack of manpower. But 2 guards/ park Rangers on the beat for a short time along the river would make a difference.

airmax87

the gaurds do come, and tell us to be more quiet.

Davidth88

There is a ranger , he drives around a golf cart type thing

However , does not see really very effective

The Sunday concerned , someone set a fire , the ranger just drove past them

The Garda need to be involved

What are the laws concerning litter ( broken bottles etc ) , vandalism and so on ?

If I see someone walking into Castletown at night with a box of booze , will the garda respond to a call out , or will they just say ' so what ? '

Castletown

There are no park rangers in Castletown. There is a very limited security staff, whose main focus is on the house. From time to time they do drive to the river, but this area is not their main concern. 2 people in my view are required to patrol this area i.e. just along the river in conjunction with the guards.
The drink is being brought into Castletown in the middle of the day, through the main gates. I could be wrong but I feel that the guards are not concerned about this as the river area is out of site from the town and they can't spend all their time in Castletown. The OPW will have to get serious and put a plan together to tackle the issue. David what would you suggest?

Davidth88

Castletown wrote: »

The OPW will have to get serious and put a plan together to tackle the issue. David what would you suggest?

I have given this a lot of thought since I did the original OP

People ( dog walkers etc ) are not going to like what I am going to suggest

a) FENCE the whole estate off with an effective fence , that includes blocking ALL entrances/exits except the main one at the C of I church , and of course the carpark entrance
b) CLOSE the entrance at the church at stipulated times , maybe 30 mins before sunset , re-open maybe at 07:00
c) Regular patrols by the river , anyone found drinking etc , ( fishing without permit .. are licences required ? ) gets ejected , plus fixed pen of some kind
d) Stop people driving down to the house , unless they have a blue handicapped sticker or are staff , this would mean having that road policed by security
e) Have the entrance by the Church policed during opening times , stop people entering with boxes of booze.

Actually , dogs off the lead are not really a problem AS LONG AS THE OWNER CLEANS UP AFTER THEM, you should be allowed to let your dog have a good run after all.

All this cost money, not sure about this , it may mean charging for entrance , which I would hate personally , but would understand in some respects.

Castletown

Quote: posted by David
Actually, dogs off the lead are not really a problem AS LONG AS THE OWNER CLEANS UP AFTER THEM, you should be allowed to let your dog have a good run after all.

David while I am a dog lover, I well understand that not everybody is. I have witnessed several occasions where dogs off leads have frightened children and jumped on adults etc. I know lots of people who have given up on Castletown not because of drinkers but because of dogs. So I would favour a by-law which permits dogs
off leads just at certain times, and in remote areas
of Castletown.

I am not sure about the fence. KCC spent 300 thousands approx. on fencing off the Wonderful Barn but to no avail. Money down the drain. The fence was penetrated and now they have tried a different tack. Passive surveillance in the form of allotments. I am told that is not working as all veg are being pulled up.

My understanding is that paying into OPW sites is never an option. These sites are always free.

Davidth88

Hi

Ok, I understand about the dogs ....... I don't actually own a dog , but I do like to see them having a good run , something you can't really achieve on the lead I believe .

Ill give this some more thought

Davidth88

Hi

Ok, after thinking about this

The Wonderful Barn , I am open to correction was just fenced and left to its own devices wasn't it ?

I am talking about fencing AND policing here

The point of the fence is to clearly mark that you are entering Castletown , from what I gather there are a myriad of entrances right now from the Castletown Housing estate.

You have to clearly mark these off .

Then , when people trespass ( which after a certain time it would be trespass ) you deal with it.

Of course all this is pie in the sky , just take a look at the playground in Celbridge !

Of course , we could educate people that destroying their neighbourhoods isn't a nice thing to do ..........

Castletown

David, I agree that a lot of this is pie in the sky. Castletown seems to be very different to other opw sites, in that it is located in the heart of a Town, it has been almost ignored by the OPW untill 2007 and people traditionally have had access from the back gardens of Crodaun and Hawthorn and Castletown for over 25 years. Access through the main gates has not been restricted for many many years. Then there is the right of way issue from the main gates to Batty Langley Lodge, which was the original road to Dublin. Several people will want this to remain open. It is very difficult to take this away when people have enjoyed access for so long. For children born in these estates and who are now young adults this access is a way of life for them. It is difficult to change this.

Since 2007 great restoration work has been carried out and there is a lot more work planned for all of us to enjoy. But because of vandalism this work is being put into jeopardy. What is the point in restoring Castletown to have it vandalised?

If the OPW try to fence it off those who traditionally over 25 years have enjoyed access will not be happy and those wanting the right of way will protest, so what do you do???? The vandals will probably get through the fence in time.

It is true that there was no security staff employed at the wonderfull barn. Without firstly employing more security staff at Castletown I think fencing might cause more problems than it is worth, as several will protest. People love the freedom of Castletown and see it as their own place, because it has been that way for so long. When Castletown was neglected the locals were its only guardians.

I wonder is there money for more security staff. I wouldn't think so at the moment. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I think there are no easy solutions.

Castletown

I notice that there is an article in the Liffey Champ this week highlighting the problems in Castletown , and asking for input from the community. I might write a letter an offer my views. It's a place that a lot of people love and it is a great pity to see it being vandalised.

Davidth88

I read the article.

Interesting it sort of implies that the OPW were thinking along the same lines as me....

Castletown

It would appear that fencing is on the agenda. They may consider all options if people engage with them. I think all who care should get involved and see what might work .

Castletown

I was surprised to read in this week’s Liffey Champion that it is the responsibility of KCC to follow up on fines issued by Gardai in relation to drinking in public places in Celbridge. As KCC do not follow-up , youths are tearing up the fines in front of the garda. No wonder the lads are openly drinking at Castletown.



I asked a garda about this and he explained it was because of bye- laws that apply to Celbridge.
Generally Gardai would not arrest people for drinking in public unless they became very disruptive. They might however simply confiscate the alcohol. There are only 3 gardai in Celbridge at any one time ( if nobody calls in sick) . Therefore to patrol Castletown would require the redeployment of Gardai from other areas. No wonder the lads do as they please.

HelenT

We live in Celbridge and use the facilities at Castletown House to exercise our dog, our daughter and ourselves.

We have visited at christmas and availed of great entertainment.

We have brought our daughter to storytime and for face painting.

Castletown House is a big part of our family. We love it.

We get all this for free!

We were there today and met one of the members of staff of OPW. We asked a quick question regarding one of the ruins and were surprised to get a very detailed and more importantly passionate answer (as well as a sneeky visit to a closed off area). It was fantastic!

As a member of Celbridge community I am sitting here thinking how can I help. I am more than happy to pay a small fee for entry, or an annual fee for the family if this would help get rid of the vandalism or help fund the future of the park in any way.

It is part of my community and I would love to help retain it and possibly even improve it. We all know that the amount of money the gov / idiots that have been running the country, will have to support places like Castletown will be close on zero.

This worries me. Instead of sitting around complaining (bout the broken glass and burnt trees) shouldn't we be coming up with ways to support the work that is ongoing at Castletown so that the amenity is there for us all to enjoy (not just the tree burning, dutch gold drinking brats!)

Looking forward to your ideas :-)

Castletown

Helen T if you read some of the post on this thread you will get a good understanding of the policing problems in Castletown and proposals for dealing with same.( I know it is a pain reading back over all of this)

It might be useful to write to the OPW @ Castletown and ask that more security staff are redeployed there. Possible transferred from other OPW sites with less vandalism issues. They do respond to public comment.

Paying into OPW sites is not an option to the best of my knowledge as these sites are public parks.

I hope that you are one of the few visitors to Castletown that respect the place and obey the signs to keep your dog on a lead etc. This issue is a cause of concern to staff members. It is important that everybody respects the place and obey the signs. Otherwise it is difficult to point a finger at drinkers who don't obey the bye-laws. We should lead by example, as bye-laws apply to everybody. Would you agree?

HelenT

Thanks Castletown. I will write a letter to the OPW with all my ideas (mine are mostly revenue generating ideas that may enable the provision of additional security). However I think education is far more valuable than security. There are problems now but alot of this could be lessened / solved with the support of local schools and an education programme.

With regard to walking my dog I do not keep her on a lease once we are in the fields. She responds instantly to command so does not bother anyone. We do put her back on her leash if we are meeting "dogless people" on a path as I do understand not everyone loves dogs and some are afraid of them. We also ALWAYS collect her poop - I wish everyone else would!

Regarding leading by example - I would happily bring a picnic to Castletown on a nice sunny day with a bottle of wine and have a drink. The difference between that and what is going on is that currently alot of the litter that is to be seen down by the river are beer cans and empty bottles.How I lead by example is by clearing up after us and not setting fire to any trees :-).

I brought home a bag of litter (not ours) from Castletown house today. Did you?

Davidth88

Helen,

Welcome to this thread.

Guys , is there a copy of these bylaws anywhere , why don't the OPW at least post some signs up at the entrances ? ( I don't recall seeing any )

I agree this will do little to deter people , however if they do start clamping down at least there would be no excuse they were not warned.

The idea of a local schools program is a great one

Castletown

Helen, When I mentioned leading by example, I was referring to obeying the signs.

If I had a cent for every time a dog owner say's my dog is under control I would be rich by now . The point is the signs are there for everybody , and for those who have small children afraid of dogs it is very unfair that they can't run in the fields of Castletown. Helen that is not fair.

There are no bye -laws notices in Castletown pertaining to dogs as this has to be agreed with KCC first. Their signs are simply appealing to the good will of the people in order to make Castletown an enjoyable safe place for everybody. As mentioned before some parks operate a system where dogs can be off leads at certain times, this can all be looked into with KCC, when complying bye-laws for Castletown. I love dogs but I can see there are problems in Castletown.

I think that if in general parents instil a respect into their children for everybody perhaps less youngsters would be inclined to disrespect simple guidelines. We can not be selective in the guidelines we choose to obey and complain about others who don't obey rules.


Helen I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but can you imagine how it feels to have a wonderful amenity on your door that can’t be used by anybody with a fear of dogs. There is also dog litter all over the place, making it impossible for staff to cut the grass along the avenue.


I don't kow of other OPW sites where dogs run freely all the time. I think that this wil change in line with other parks and will be tackled along with the vandalism.

Karlitto

Castletown wrote: »

Helen, When I mentioned leading by example, I was referring to obeying the signs.

If I had a cent for every time a dog owner say's my dog is under control I would be rich by now . The point is the signs are there for everybody , and for those who have small children afraid of dogs it is very unfair that they can't run in the fields of Castletown. Helen that is not fair.

There are no bye -laws notices in Castletown pertaining to dogs as this has to be agreed with KCC first. Their signs are simply appealing to the good will of the people in order to make Castletown an enjoyable safe place for everybody. As mentioned before some parks operate a system where dogs can be off leads at certain times, this can all be looked into with KCC, when complying bye-laws for Castletown. I love dogs but I can see there are problems in Castletown.

I think that if in general parents instil a respect into their children for everybody perhaps less youngsters would be inclined to disrespect simple guidelines. We can not be selective in the guidelines we choose to obey and complain about others who don't obey rules.


Helen I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but can you imagine how it feels to have a wonderful amenity on your door that can’t be used by anybody with a fear of dogs. There is also dog litter all over the place, making it impossible for staff to cut the grass along the avenue.


I don't kow of other OPW sites where dogs run freely all the time. I think that this wil change in line with other parks and will be tackled along with the vandalism.

Hi Castletown,

I would like to clarify some points here as I have met quite a few ignorant and aggresive "non-dog walkers"... so I did some homework.

Now, just so this is out there and people understand. Firstly, the signs that state "Dogs must be kept on leads and all times" WAS correct, however, this sign is a sign for the control of dogs act 1986, which, has been amended, quite significatnly might I mention, several time, the latest amendment of the act was in 2010. Currently, there is NO law what so ever that your dog must be on a lead, it does however state that your dog must be under effectual control. Basically, if you call your dog, he must come back. It also states that local authorities (county council for example) do have the power to enforce their own bye laws. So, I contacted the veterinarion section of kildare county council, they have informed me that there are no bye laws, what so ever related to dogs in the county of kildare. So, this means, that as long as your dog comes back when you call him/her, you are in no way/shape or form to have your dog on a lead in any external public place in the county.

Secondy, castletown house and the grounds are under OPW (Office of public works) These bodies are also entitled to have their own set of "micro bye laws", whilst these grounds are not privately owned, it does fall under a "special" rule. However, they need to make a publication of their rules (note: signs are not enough, this information needs to be made available and the county council informed)

Don't get me wrong, I am not having a go, I just want to ensure everyone knows the facts, and not just going off "here say".

Now, to get to my real point, I have no issue what so every about dogs being off the lead in castletown, and thats any dog, pitbull, doberman, german shepard, king charlse etc. this "dangerous dogs list" is a heap of tripe.... all dogs are a reflection of their owners and how they are trained. I understand people may be afraid of dogs, if they were bitten at some stage, or if their parents pick them up any time a dog comes up to them which breed's fear of dogs into them. Dogs are a part of society in this day in age, you are just as likley to meet a dog on the street as you are a person. In saying that, if someone is afraid of a dog, there is nothing we can do, let them be, if your dog runs over to a person who is clearly afraid, call them back. No problem there right?

If your dog is not trained to return, they should be on a lead. Not only for people who are afraid of dogs, but moreso, the dog could run away and get out on the street / run infront of a car etc.

Oh, and, if your dog is aggresive towards other dogs, yes, they should be on a lead. (I would advise obedience training) My dog used to snip (not bite....) and bark at other dogs when we got him from the pound, this was because of his backround, now he is fine and it is very seldom he will bark at another dog. When he does, he is punished by correction and putting him on the lead. BUt as a general, he is fine.

Castletown is one of the only places which has been, for years, known as a "dog park", and quite frankly, it should stay that way.... if you think about it, people can go to any park they wish, but it is not the same for dogs. They are very limited, and I think, castletown should remain as it is.

Now, to get to dog poo, yes, we all know not everyone picks up their own dogs poo. And, this is just a personal view here, but I do know the law about it, so please don't start quoting it to me. Now, to be fair, along the walk ways, yes, I believe the dogs poo should be picked up and PLACED IN THE BINS, and not throwing the bag of poo to the side of the road as I have seen all too many times.... however, if it is on the field area, its fine. I mean, who cleans up the rabbit, fox, bird poo? No one...

I let my dog poo in the field, particularly in the long grass, and to the people who are going to give out to me for it, I say this. I am glad you are so ignorant that you would bother giving out to someone for letting their dog poo in the grass, who comes down to the park every day of the week twice a day, and on Saturday and Sundays when I have more time as I do not work on the weekends, bring 2 black bags and fill them with the bottles, wrappings and cans that the little knackers around the area leave scattered all over the place from the night before.

And to be honest, the statement "dog litter all over the place", well, I answer this statement with another, you are concerned about "dog litte", namley dog poo, which can be washed away with rain right? So, if there were no dogs, you would still have fox, bird, cat, rabbit and squirrel poo there anyway, so please, don't be so petty.... you should be more concerned about the people who are there on Friday and Saturday nights drinking and leaving their rubbish behind, and I am not talking about 1 or two cans, I am walking about a group of 10 people drinking for the best part of a night... Furthermore, I have seen many nappies, and several times human **** amongst the trees, unless some how dogs have discovered how to wipe their bums and leave the tissues there as well.

All in all folks, there is no need to constantly give out about caring people who bring their dogs out to socialize/interact/exercise/have fun, when there are many dogs who are beaten, neglected, abandoned who never get the chance to have a decent life.

So in summary:
- Dogs on leads - certain cases to an extend
- Dog poo - Clean it up if it is on the walkways and have consideration for others
- Train your dog well, its not easy, but it is your responsability when you get a dog
- Don't abuse dog walkers because their dogs are off the lead and you have nothing better to do

My two cents...

/Karl

Joe Public

Can you explain why many, otherwise quiet, dogs are more inclined to attack people on bicycles? It has happened a friend of mine twice lately while cycling through Castletown. It has happened me in the past as well when I used to cycle.
Apart from laws and signs, it is common courtesy to make sure your dog is on a lead and under control when walking in public areas.