Castletown

Davidth88

People

I was down by the river at Castletown Hse yesterday ( wasn't it a lovely day )

Its a real shame that the place is destroyed by broken glass , beer cans , litter and other evidence of ' goings on '

The picnic benches that we used to enjoy by the house have been removed ' due to vandalism '

What can be done to stop the drinking and other undesirable activities in the Castletown Hse parklands ?

The Raven.

David, you are right to be concerned about the litter and vandalism in Castletown. It is going on all around the place and it is unforgivable. I don't know what the solution is other than more parental supervision and guidance. Perhaps things might improve somewhat now that the schools are open again. It is grossly unfair that is left to others to clean up the mess after the litter louts and vandals.

Castletown

I think that a park ranger would make a difference and perhaps with his contact number posted in key locations around the grounds , so that we the people can act as watchdogs and phone him/her when necessary. The security at present seems to be confined to the area around the house. A park ranger along the river bank would make a great difference and perhaps at the main gates as this seems to be where youngsters are openly bringing in bags and boxes of beer, up from the town. Petrol this area even for a short period and take all beer from the youths. In conjunction with the local gardai run an intense campaign over a month or so. They might move off. There is no reason for them to move at the moment as nobody seems to bother them. The OPW need to make more of an effort.

airmax87

a park ranger wouldnt be able to catch a gang of 25 drunk teens, nor dirtbikes.
not going to help.

Joe Public

It is still down to the Gardai to enforce the laws as drinking in public places is breaking the law. If these uncivil law breakers people keep getting away with it then they will keep doing it.

Castletown

I agree that a park ranger wouldn't be able to catch them. However if the river area was patrolled and the groups had to run off every time two rangers drove or cycled past or else have their names given to the guards that would be a nuisance to the youngsters. At the moment they can sit for hours in the one spot with great comfort. So make life uncomfortable for them, organise a serious campaign with the guards for a short time and just maybe they might move off. The guards won't police this area forever. We had problems where I live and the guards organised a foot patrol for a week or so , they lads moved off and never came back. The problem at the moment is that nothing is being done to enforce the law. Just look at the adults who allow their dogs dirt all over the place and run wild, despite all the signs erected . I love dogs and keep mine on a lead. The OPW need to find away or at least make an effort to enforce the rules of the parklands as happens in Stephen's green and several other opw sites. Perhaps dogs could be allowed off their leads at certain times. At the moment you can do as you please in Castletown. Bring in bye laws and more staff to enforce them. The great restoration works that are being done in Castletown are being destroyed by a minority. It is heart breaking to see trees/ benches etc burnt.

Joe Public

We have plenty of laws, it's the enforcement that's lacking. Moving on trouble makers is not the solution as they just find somewhere else to cause mayhem.

Castletown

There is no ideal solution. But this thread asked about Castletown . At the moment there is no bye law to allow staff at Castletown to enforce that dogs are kept on leads. So the signs are meaningless . However KCC can pass bye laws that will give authorisation to enforce the rules. For example to allow for specific times for dogs to be off leads.

I don't think that the OPW staff can change the minds of these lads and Lassies out drinking , that is not their brief, but they do have a duty to protect this site for all of us and if that means moving anti social activities out of Castletown then in my view they have done their Job. They can not be expected to change the anti-social mentality problems of our society.But it is their duty to protect Castletown for all of us to use and enjoy safely. I feel at the moment not enough is being done.There is probably a lack of funds to pay for more ground staff.

Joe Public

Is Castletown estate a public place or not? Is it governed by the laws that pertain to public places?

Castletown

The bye laws pertaining to parks vary from Council to Council. The OPW could make a request to KCC for a bye law to deal with the problems in Castletown regarding the dogs, but this would not apply to St, Stephen's Green.

Joe Public

I mean the common law for all public places where a dog must always be on a lead and drinking in public places is also not allowed.

Castletown

I understand what you are saying, but there is a grey area. My understanding is at least in relation to the dogs that until you see a sign up indicating that Castletown is governed by specific bye laws that the staff have no authority to call in the dog warden to issue fines. Perhaps they could call the guards but that is not going to happen.

We all know that you can't drink in public places but we also know that this is not enforced. So I still think that the OPW require more ground staff to make any real attempt to deal with this problem in conjunction with the guards . The guards will say lack of manpower. But 2 guards/ park Rangers on the beat for a short time along the river would make a difference.

airmax87

the gaurds do come, and tell us to be more quiet.

Davidth88

There is a ranger , he drives around a golf cart type thing

However , does not see really very effective

The Sunday concerned , someone set a fire , the ranger just drove past them

The Garda need to be involved

What are the laws concerning litter ( broken bottles etc ) , vandalism and so on ?

If I see someone walking into Castletown at night with a box of booze , will the garda respond to a call out , or will they just say ' so what ? '

Castletown

There are no park rangers in Castletown. There is a very limited security staff, whose main focus is on the house. From time to time they do drive to the river, but this area is not their main concern. 2 people in my view are required to patrol this area i.e. just along the river in conjunction with the guards.
The drink is being brought into Castletown in the middle of the day, through the main gates. I could be wrong but I feel that the guards are not concerned about this as the river area is out of site from the town and they can't spend all their time in Castletown. The OPW will have to get serious and put a plan together to tackle the issue. David what would you suggest?

Davidth88

Castletown wrote: »

The OPW will have to get serious and put a plan together to tackle the issue. David what would you suggest?

I have given this a lot of thought since I did the original OP

People ( dog walkers etc ) are not going to like what I am going to suggest

a) FENCE the whole estate off with an effective fence , that includes blocking ALL entrances/exits except the main one at the C of I church , and of course the carpark entrance
b) CLOSE the entrance at the church at stipulated times , maybe 30 mins before sunset , re-open maybe at 07:00
c) Regular patrols by the river , anyone found drinking etc , ( fishing without permit .. are licences required ? ) gets ejected , plus fixed pen of some kind
d) Stop people driving down to the house , unless they have a blue handicapped sticker or are staff , this would mean having that road policed by security
e) Have the entrance by the Church policed during opening times , stop people entering with boxes of booze.

Actually , dogs off the lead are not really a problem AS LONG AS THE OWNER CLEANS UP AFTER THEM, you should be allowed to let your dog have a good run after all.

All this cost money, not sure about this , it may mean charging for entrance , which I would hate personally , but would understand in some respects.

Castletown

Quote: posted by David
Actually, dogs off the lead are not really a problem AS LONG AS THE OWNER CLEANS UP AFTER THEM, you should be allowed to let your dog have a good run after all.

David while I am a dog lover, I well understand that not everybody is. I have witnessed several occasions where dogs off leads have frightened children and jumped on adults etc. I know lots of people who have given up on Castletown not because of drinkers but because of dogs. So I would favour a by-law which permits dogs
off leads just at certain times, and in remote areas
of Castletown.

I am not sure about the fence. KCC spent 300 thousands approx. on fencing off the Wonderful Barn but to no avail. Money down the drain. The fence was penetrated and now they have tried a different tack. Passive surveillance in the form of allotments. I am told that is not working as all veg are being pulled up.

My understanding is that paying into OPW sites is never an option. These sites are always free.

Davidth88

Hi

Ok, I understand about the dogs ....... I don't actually own a dog , but I do like to see them having a good run , something you can't really achieve on the lead I believe .

Ill give this some more thought

Davidth88

Hi

Ok, after thinking about this

The Wonderful Barn , I am open to correction was just fenced and left to its own devices wasn't it ?

I am talking about fencing AND policing here

The point of the fence is to clearly mark that you are entering Castletown , from what I gather there are a myriad of entrances right now from the Castletown Housing estate.

You have to clearly mark these off .

Then , when people trespass ( which after a certain time it would be trespass ) you deal with it.

Of course all this is pie in the sky , just take a look at the playground in Celbridge !

Of course , we could educate people that destroying their neighbourhoods isn't a nice thing to do ..........

Castletown

David, I agree that a lot of this is pie in the sky. Castletown seems to be very different to other opw sites, in that it is located in the heart of a Town, it has been almost ignored by the OPW untill 2007 and people traditionally have had access from the back gardens of Crodaun and Hawthorn and Castletown for over 25 years. Access through the main gates has not been restricted for many many years. Then there is the right of way issue from the main gates to Batty Langley Lodge, which was the original road to Dublin. Several people will want this to remain open. It is very difficult to take this away when people have enjoyed access for so long. For children born in these estates and who are now young adults this access is a way of life for them. It is difficult to change this.

Since 2007 great restoration work has been carried out and there is a lot more work planned for all of us to enjoy. But because of vandalism this work is being put into jeopardy. What is the point in restoring Castletown to have it vandalised?

If the OPW try to fence it off those who traditionally over 25 years have enjoyed access will not be happy and those wanting the right of way will protest, so what do you do???? The vandals will probably get through the fence in time.

It is true that there was no security staff employed at the wonderfull barn. Without firstly employing more security staff at Castletown I think fencing might cause more problems than it is worth, as several will protest. People love the freedom of Castletown and see it as their own place, because it has been that way for so long. When Castletown was neglected the locals were its only guardians.

I wonder is there money for more security staff. I wouldn't think so at the moment. It will be interesting to see how all this plays out. I think there are no easy solutions.

Castletown

I notice that there is an article in the Liffey Champ this week highlighting the problems in Castletown , and asking for input from the community. I might write a letter an offer my views. It's a place that a lot of people love and it is a great pity to see it being vandalised.

Davidth88

I read the article.

Interesting it sort of implies that the OPW were thinking along the same lines as me....

Castletown

It would appear that fencing is on the agenda. They may consider all options if people engage with them. I think all who care should get involved and see what might work .

Castletown

I was surprised to read in this week’s Liffey Champion that it is the responsibility of KCC to follow up on fines issued by Gardai in relation to drinking in public places in Celbridge. As KCC do not follow-up , youths are tearing up the fines in front of the garda. No wonder the lads are openly drinking at Castletown.



I asked a garda about this and he explained it was because of bye- laws that apply to Celbridge.
Generally Gardai would not arrest people for drinking in public unless they became very disruptive. They might however simply confiscate the alcohol. There are only 3 gardai in Celbridge at any one time ( if nobody calls in sick) . Therefore to patrol Castletown would require the redeployment of Gardai from other areas. No wonder the lads do as they please.

HelenT

We live in Celbridge and use the facilities at Castletown House to exercise our dog, our daughter and ourselves.

We have visited at christmas and availed of great entertainment.

We have brought our daughter to storytime and for face painting.

Castletown House is a big part of our family. We love it.

We get all this for free!

We were there today and met one of the members of staff of OPW. We asked a quick question regarding one of the ruins and were surprised to get a very detailed and more importantly passionate answer (as well as a sneeky visit to a closed off area). It was fantastic!

As a member of Celbridge community I am sitting here thinking how can I help. I am more than happy to pay a small fee for entry, or an annual fee for the family if this would help get rid of the vandalism or help fund the future of the park in any way.

It is part of my community and I would love to help retain it and possibly even improve it. We all know that the amount of money the gov / idiots that have been running the country, will have to support places like Castletown will be close on zero.

This worries me. Instead of sitting around complaining (bout the broken glass and burnt trees) shouldn't we be coming up with ways to support the work that is ongoing at Castletown so that the amenity is there for us all to enjoy (not just the tree burning, dutch gold drinking brats!)

Looking forward to your ideas :-)

Castletown

Helen T if you read some of the post on this thread you will get a good understanding of the policing problems in Castletown and proposals for dealing with same.( I know it is a pain reading back over all of this)

It might be useful to write to the OPW @ Castletown and ask that more security staff are redeployed there. Possible transferred from other OPW sites with less vandalism issues. They do respond to public comment.

Paying into OPW sites is not an option to the best of my knowledge as these sites are public parks.

I hope that you are one of the few visitors to Castletown that respect the place and obey the signs to keep your dog on a lead etc. This issue is a cause of concern to staff members. It is important that everybody respects the place and obey the signs. Otherwise it is difficult to point a finger at drinkers who don't obey the bye-laws. We should lead by example, as bye-laws apply to everybody. Would you agree?

HelenT

Thanks Castletown. I will write a letter to the OPW with all my ideas (mine are mostly revenue generating ideas that may enable the provision of additional security). However I think education is far more valuable than security. There are problems now but alot of this could be lessened / solved with the support of local schools and an education programme.

With regard to walking my dog I do not keep her on a lease once we are in the fields. She responds instantly to command so does not bother anyone. We do put her back on her leash if we are meeting "dogless people" on a path as I do understand not everyone loves dogs and some are afraid of them. We also ALWAYS collect her poop - I wish everyone else would!

Regarding leading by example - I would happily bring a picnic to Castletown on a nice sunny day with a bottle of wine and have a drink. The difference between that and what is going on is that currently alot of the litter that is to be seen down by the river are beer cans and empty bottles.How I lead by example is by clearing up after us and not setting fire to any trees :-).

I brought home a bag of litter (not ours) from Castletown house today. Did you?

Davidth88

Helen,

Welcome to this thread.

Guys , is there a copy of these bylaws anywhere , why don't the OPW at least post some signs up at the entrances ? ( I don't recall seeing any )

I agree this will do little to deter people , however if they do start clamping down at least there would be no excuse they were not warned.

The idea of a local schools program is a great one

Castletown

Helen, When I mentioned leading by example, I was referring to obeying the signs.

If I had a cent for every time a dog owner say's my dog is under control I would be rich by now . The point is the signs are there for everybody , and for those who have small children afraid of dogs it is very unfair that they can't run in the fields of Castletown. Helen that is not fair.

There are no bye -laws notices in Castletown pertaining to dogs as this has to be agreed with KCC first. Their signs are simply appealing to the good will of the people in order to make Castletown an enjoyable safe place for everybody. As mentioned before some parks operate a system where dogs can be off leads at certain times, this can all be looked into with KCC, when complying bye-laws for Castletown. I love dogs but I can see there are problems in Castletown.

I think that if in general parents instil a respect into their children for everybody perhaps less youngsters would be inclined to disrespect simple guidelines. We can not be selective in the guidelines we choose to obey and complain about others who don't obey rules.


Helen I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but can you imagine how it feels to have a wonderful amenity on your door that can’t be used by anybody with a fear of dogs. There is also dog litter all over the place, making it impossible for staff to cut the grass along the avenue.


I don't kow of other OPW sites where dogs run freely all the time. I think that this wil change in line with other parks and will be tackled along with the vandalism.

Karlitto

Castletown wrote: »

Helen, When I mentioned leading by example, I was referring to obeying the signs.

If I had a cent for every time a dog owner say's my dog is under control I would be rich by now . The point is the signs are there for everybody , and for those who have small children afraid of dogs it is very unfair that they can't run in the fields of Castletown. Helen that is not fair.

There are no bye -laws notices in Castletown pertaining to dogs as this has to be agreed with KCC first. Their signs are simply appealing to the good will of the people in order to make Castletown an enjoyable safe place for everybody. As mentioned before some parks operate a system where dogs can be off leads at certain times, this can all be looked into with KCC, when complying bye-laws for Castletown. I love dogs but I can see there are problems in Castletown.

I think that if in general parents instil a respect into their children for everybody perhaps less youngsters would be inclined to disrespect simple guidelines. We can not be selective in the guidelines we choose to obey and complain about others who don't obey rules.


Helen I hope I don’t sound too harsh, but can you imagine how it feels to have a wonderful amenity on your door that can’t be used by anybody with a fear of dogs. There is also dog litter all over the place, making it impossible for staff to cut the grass along the avenue.


I don't kow of other OPW sites where dogs run freely all the time. I think that this wil change in line with other parks and will be tackled along with the vandalism.

Hi Castletown,

I would like to clarify some points here as I have met quite a few ignorant and aggresive "non-dog walkers"... so I did some homework.

Now, just so this is out there and people understand. Firstly, the signs that state "Dogs must be kept on leads and all times" WAS correct, however, this sign is a sign for the control of dogs act 1986, which, has been amended, quite significatnly might I mention, several time, the latest amendment of the act was in 2010. Currently, there is NO law what so ever that your dog must be on a lead, it does however state that your dog must be under effectual control. Basically, if you call your dog, he must come back. It also states that local authorities (county council for example) do have the power to enforce their own bye laws. So, I contacted the veterinarion section of kildare county council, they have informed me that there are no bye laws, what so ever related to dogs in the county of kildare. So, this means, that as long as your dog comes back when you call him/her, you are in no way/shape or form to have your dog on a lead in any external public place in the county.

Secondy, castletown house and the grounds are under OPW (Office of public works) These bodies are also entitled to have their own set of "micro bye laws", whilst these grounds are not privately owned, it does fall under a "special" rule. However, they need to make a publication of their rules (note: signs are not enough, this information needs to be made available and the county council informed)

Don't get me wrong, I am not having a go, I just want to ensure everyone knows the facts, and not just going off "here say".

Now, to get to my real point, I have no issue what so every about dogs being off the lead in castletown, and thats any dog, pitbull, doberman, german shepard, king charlse etc. this "dangerous dogs list" is a heap of tripe.... all dogs are a reflection of their owners and how they are trained. I understand people may be afraid of dogs, if they were bitten at some stage, or if their parents pick them up any time a dog comes up to them which breed's fear of dogs into them. Dogs are a part of society in this day in age, you are just as likley to meet a dog on the street as you are a person. In saying that, if someone is afraid of a dog, there is nothing we can do, let them be, if your dog runs over to a person who is clearly afraid, call them back. No problem there right?

If your dog is not trained to return, they should be on a lead. Not only for people who are afraid of dogs, but moreso, the dog could run away and get out on the street / run infront of a car etc.

Oh, and, if your dog is aggresive towards other dogs, yes, they should be on a lead. (I would advise obedience training) My dog used to snip (not bite....) and bark at other dogs when we got him from the pound, this was because of his backround, now he is fine and it is very seldom he will bark at another dog. When he does, he is punished by correction and putting him on the lead. BUt as a general, he is fine.

Castletown is one of the only places which has been, for years, known as a "dog park", and quite frankly, it should stay that way.... if you think about it, people can go to any park they wish, but it is not the same for dogs. They are very limited, and I think, castletown should remain as it is.

Now, to get to dog poo, yes, we all know not everyone picks up their own dogs poo. And, this is just a personal view here, but I do know the law about it, so please don't start quoting it to me. Now, to be fair, along the walk ways, yes, I believe the dogs poo should be picked up and PLACED IN THE BINS, and not throwing the bag of poo to the side of the road as I have seen all too many times.... however, if it is on the field area, its fine. I mean, who cleans up the rabbit, fox, bird poo? No one...

I let my dog poo in the field, particularly in the long grass, and to the people who are going to give out to me for it, I say this. I am glad you are so ignorant that you would bother giving out to someone for letting their dog poo in the grass, who comes down to the park every day of the week twice a day, and on Saturday and Sundays when I have more time as I do not work on the weekends, bring 2 black bags and fill them with the bottles, wrappings and cans that the little knackers around the area leave scattered all over the place from the night before.

And to be honest, the statement "dog litter all over the place", well, I answer this statement with another, you are concerned about "dog litte", namley dog poo, which can be washed away with rain right? So, if there were no dogs, you would still have fox, bird, cat, rabbit and squirrel poo there anyway, so please, don't be so petty.... you should be more concerned about the people who are there on Friday and Saturday nights drinking and leaving their rubbish behind, and I am not talking about 1 or two cans, I am walking about a group of 10 people drinking for the best part of a night... Furthermore, I have seen many nappies, and several times human **** amongst the trees, unless some how dogs have discovered how to wipe their bums and leave the tissues there as well.

All in all folks, there is no need to constantly give out about caring people who bring their dogs out to socialize/interact/exercise/have fun, when there are many dogs who are beaten, neglected, abandoned who never get the chance to have a decent life.

So in summary:
- Dogs on leads - certain cases to an extend
- Dog poo - Clean it up if it is on the walkways and have consideration for others
- Train your dog well, its not easy, but it is your responsability when you get a dog
- Don't abuse dog walkers because their dogs are off the lead and you have nothing better to do

My two cents...

/Karl

Joe Public

Can you explain why many, otherwise quiet, dogs are more inclined to attack people on bicycles? It has happened a friend of mine twice lately while cycling through Castletown. It has happened me in the past as well when I used to cycle.
Apart from laws and signs, it is common courtesy to make sure your dog is on a lead and under control when walking in public areas.

Karlitto

Joe Public wrote: »

Can you explain why many, otherwise quiet, dogs are more inclined to attack people on bicycles? It has happened a friend of mine twice lately while cycling through Castletown. It has happened me in the past as well when I used to cycle.
Apart from laws and signs, it is common courtesy to make sure your dog is on a lead and under control when walking in public areas.

Hi there Joe,

I would apprechiate it, that if when you plan on replying to someone her, you indeed read the full post.

As I previously stated, there are no laws in Ireland stating a dog must be kept on a lead, furthermore, there are no bye laws in Kildare stating the same. There are some signs indeed stating that dogs must be kept on a lead within castletown, however, this sign is based off a law which that section has been amended out of it, and under the OPW act, castletown have not set a micro bye law to enforce the same.

Now, to get to yout point, I highly doubt any dog has actually attacked you or your friend on a bike. The dogs may very well walk or run up and try to jump up, yes.... thats right, just because a dog jumps up doesn't mean they are trying to attack you. I in all of my time walking in castletown have yet to see anyone (not just cyclists) be attacked by a dog, and I have only heard of 1 case where a woman was bitten by a dog, and two cases where two seperate incidents of two seperate dog being bitten by another dog.

Secondly, some dogs may not be used to bikes, so might chase after it to see what it is, or because they are afraid of it. So, have a bit of common sence here....

Anyway, if a dog attacks you, why do you not report it to the gaurds?

And once again, if you had of had the common courtesy to bother reading my post in full, I did say that aggresive dogs should be kept on a lead until it has been trained out of them.

If you want to put it in a, quite frankly, smart arsed way that you have, you shouldn't be cycling on the foot path come driveway where children or people are walking anyway, are you telling me that this is safe? If someone walks/runs across the path and doesn't see you, it could end badly...

Joe Public

I did read the full post and gave my views and didn't make a personal attack. I followed the forum's rules. I made no "smart arsed" comments.

If a dog runs at someone cycling and barks loudly whilst trying to catch their ankles that's good enough to be described as an attack even though the dog might think it is playing. Think of the person on the bicycle, they don't know the dog and so fear the worst.

The main driveway through Castletown Demesne is not exclusively for pedestrians and is worth keeping in mind while using.

Karlitto

I fully agree that the path come driverway is not restricted to pedestrians, nor is it restricted to humans.

If a dog runs at someone cycling and barks loudly whilst trying to catch their ankles that's good enough to be described as an attack even though the dog might think it is playing. Think of the person on the bicycle, they don't know the dog and so fear the worst.

I find it very hard to believe that either you or your friend were, what you call, "attacked", by a dog whilst cycling. A dog would never go for your ankles, but rather the tyres of the bike... but still, my point remains, if you don't class dogs on the same path your cycling on as "safe", do you consider it "safe" for you to be cycling on the same path that a small child could easily fall or run out infront of you?

An Ri rua

Karlitto wrote: »

I fully agree that the path come driverway is not restricted to pedestrians, nor is it restricted to humans.

If a dog runs at someone cycling and barks loudly whilst trying to catch their ankles that's good enough to be described as an attack even though the dog might think it is playing. Think of the person on the bicycle, they don't know the dog and so fear the worst.

I find it very hard to believe that either you or your friend were, what you call, "attacked", by a dog whilst cycling. A dog would never go for your ankles, but rather the tyres of the bike... but still, my point remains, if you don't class dogs on the same path your cycling on as "safe", do you consider it "safe" for you to be cycling on the same path that a small child could easily fall or run out infront of you?

That counts as one of the stupidest retorts that I have EVER read on Boards.ie. A dog will try to bite the person if that is what they are about. Not the tyres ???? I think you must be driving in a cage so long that you forget how things are on a bike. The dog CAN see you. The dog WILL try to bite YOU, not the bike, if that is their intention in attacking. Its happened to me, its happened to generations of cyclists young and old since bicycles were invented. You must know little about cycling and nothing about dogs and I believe that you owe all of us a public retraction of such stupid, ill-informed statement of mis-fact.

Karlitto

An Ri rua wrote: »

That counts as one of the stupidest retorts that I have EVER read on Boards.ie. A dog will try to bite the person if that is what they are about. Not the tyres ???? I think you must be driving in a cage so long that you forget how things are on a bike. The dog CAN see you. The dog WILL try to bite YOU, not the bike, if that is their intention in attacking. Its happened to me, its happened to generations of cyclists young and old since bicycles were invented. You must know little about cycling and nothing about dogs and I believe that you owe all of us a public retraction of such stupid, ill-informed statement of mis-fact.

You will be waiting for a long long time if you think I am going to retract that statement. The dog doesn't distinguish the difference between you and the bike while your are moving... anyway, I have never seen a cyclist being attacked by a dog, the most I have seen is a dog walking infront of a cyclist. A child could do the same, so my statement still stands.

I must say, I love the amount of people who I have met, either in person, on forums or other networks who seem to have this somewhat arrogant view that they know exactly how to train dogs, what they are thinking and why they do some of the things they do, but, have never had a dog themselves.

An Ri rua

Karlitto wrote: »

You will be waiting for a long long time if you think I am going to retract that statement. The dog doesn't distinguish the difference between you and the bike while your are moving... anyway, I have never seen a cyclist being attacked by a dog, the most I have seen is a dog walking infront of a cyclist. A child could do the same, so my statement still stands.

I must say, I love the amount of people who I have met, either in person, on forums or other networks who seem to have this somewhat arrogant view that they know exactly how to train dogs, what they are thinking and why they do some of the things they do, but, have never had a dog themselves.

I still stand over what I've said, that the statement regarding non-biting of ankles is, forgive the pun (and slight on dogs), dog-stupid. Dogs do differentiate between the person and the bike. I have NEVER in my country life seen a dog bite a steel bicycle. I have seen them bite ankles and of course bite cows' ankles. Dogs are exceedingly intelligent and perceptive, as the thrust of your empathy for them must surely concede.

However, I have read your excellent post #30 and concede that you do of course know plenty about dogs and care about them too.

I admire your defence of their rights (I believe we put people first all too often). I would say this, however, regarding dog litter. You must also remember the person who tends the field / lawns. The tractor operator (and I know a few in public parks) can be hit by dog faeces as the grass is cut. It is a good deal bigger than fox , rabbit or bird dirt. Let's be fair. Although you are doing sterling work, and I admire you for it, there is room for improvement there.

ps A big thank you for your initial post here regarding the latest law. It is an eye opener for me and clarifies a lot.

ps I'm a dog and cat owner with a lot of empathy and insight for animals. I regret having to put a lead on my best pal Westie but its vital with a dog with prey instinct. There is NO other safe way, for him or for other sentient beings. Terriers= lunatics.

Kind regards

Karlitto

An Ri rua wrote: »

I still stand over what I've said, that the statement regarding non-biting of ankles is, forgive the pun (and slight on dogs), dog-stupid. Dogs do differentiate between the person and the bike. I have NEVER in my country life seen a dog bite a steel bicycle. I have seen them bite ankles and of course bite cows' ankles. Dogs are exceedingly intelligent and perceptive, as the thrust of your empathy for them must surely concede.

However, I have read your excellent post #30 and concede that you do of course know plenty about dogs and care about them too.

I admire your defence of their rights (I believe we put people first all too often). I would say this, however, regarding dog litter. You must also remember the person who tends the field / lawns. The tractor operator (and I know a few in public parks) can be hit by dog faeces as the grass is cut. It is a good deal bigger than fox , rabbit or bird dirt. Let's be fair. Although you are doing sterling work, and I admire you for it, there is room for improvement there.

ps A big thank you for your initial post here regarding the latest law. It is an eye opener for me and clarifies a lot.

ps I'm a dog and cat owner with a lot of empathy and insight for animals. I regret having to put a lead on my best pal Westie but its vital with a dog with prey instinct. There is NO other safe way, for him or for other sentient beings. Terriers= lunatics.

Kind regards

I'm not perfect, but, I find alot of people are quite ignorant, agreed with the size part of the dog feaces, but, I don't see a problem, really, in a long grassed field to let the dog take a poo. Walkways (not just paved footpaths) yes, absoloutely, be responsible and clean it up. At the end of the day, there is a reason the long grass is long, cause it hasn't been cut in quite a while, so, in my eyes, this gives enough time in this god forsaken country for it to rain and wash it away. Fox poo smells 100000000000000 times worst than any dog poo.

My guy is a cross between a Lab and a Staff, you can train the little guy out of it, just takes alot of time as I am sure you know. Dogs are a direct reflection of their owner. Believe me, Gimli was in a very very bad way when we got him from the pound and has come many many miles since. Now he is fine.

At the end of the day, I firmly believe people need to cop on and realise that they cannot claim every piece of this planet for themselves, this includes in house and over seas. The dogs need somewhere to get out, socialise and exercise.

Joe Public

There is no problem letting a dog have a poo in a long grassed field as long as it is not a public amenity area where you have, for example, children playing hide and seek or rolling in the long grass. If a dog is the responsibility of an owner then it is up to the owner to make sure their dog's poo is not left in a public place. Throwing the plastic bag with poo into the ditch is an all too common sight which makes you wonder as to the mentality of some people.
Motorised vehicles, bicycles, prams, buggies, joggers and pedestrians all use the main artery road through Castletown Demesne and all look out for each other's safety as expected. Dogs do have the natural preying instinct and can go for people on bicycles and other animals such as cats, sheep and cattle. Dogs can be a bit over friendly or curious and approach people whether they like it or not. That's why there is a law saying that dogs must be kept on a lead at all times in public places. There is no such thing as a dog being in full control unless it is on a short lead.
I do love dogs and had one once but I also understand their instincts.

Karlitto

Joe Public wrote: »

There is no problem letting a dog have a poo in a long grassed field as long as it is not a public amenity area where you have, for example, children playing hide and seek or rolling in the long grass. If a dog is the responsibility of an owner then it is up to the owner to make sure their dog's poo is not left in a public place.

Yes, I fully agree. Hence why I pick up the poo when he does it on the walkways or, the more commonly used places, such as the field infront of the house.

Joe Public wrote: »

Throwing the plastic bag with poo into the ditch is an all too common sight which makes you wonder as to the mentality of some people.

Yep, it really F***ing annoys me when people do that, whilst it is not a "direct danger" to kids as I don't see them opening a strange bag, the dogs can get into it and eat it..... and even worse, its the same as dumping cans, bottles, beer boxes and general **** the knackers leave there on a Friday and Saturday night..... those people are no better ...

Joe Public wrote: »

Motorised vehicles, bicycles, prams, buggies, joggers and pedestrians all use the main artery road through Castletown Demesne and all look out for each other's safety as expected. Dogs do have the natural preying instinct and can go for people on bicycles and other animals such as cats, sheep and cattle. Dogs can be a bit over friendly or curious and approach people whether they like it or not.

I do understand, I can't speak for all dog owners here, but my dog is under control, he will run up to people and sniff or sometimes jump, (here is the key point) but, if I call him, he will come. However, with other dogs, he will go and sniff/play, it can sometimes take a couple of recalls to get him back.

Joe Public wrote: »

That's why there is a law saying that dogs must be kept on a lead at all times in public places.

As I wasnt sure of my opinion of you before, but now I am ok with it, I like you, I don't want this to seem harsh, but there is actually no law stating that a dog must be on a lead at all times, or indeed at any time within Kildare (even under the OPW of castletown house, there is no bye law stating the same) in a public place.

Joe Public wrote: »

There is no such thing as a dog being in full control unless it is on a short lead.

While this is true, you are able to train it out of them, of course you will have the odd time where they will disobey, but hey, thats the same as both adults and children.

Joe Public wrote: »

I do love dogs and had one once but I also understand their instincts.

Good I am a dog lover, and don't get me wrong, I am harsh sometimes, but I just want to speak for those with no voice, especially when "people" in the most general term seem to claim everything to be theirs.... by that I mean, people put themselves above dogs, and quite frankly, every other animal on the planet, which is wrong, most of the animals around now, were here long long long before people. But we came and took it away from them.

I just like to remind people that this sort of mentallity is not fair, we can live in harmony, but there has got to be compromise on both sides. For example, dogs can be off the lead, pick up after your dog in a senseble manner, and don't let your dog go up to people who don't want them to, but on the same side, don't give out if you are approached by a dog (just ask the owner to recall them instead of getting abusive, which I have seen and been the target of several times)

Now, on to a slightly related topic, has anyone but me (dog walkers mainly as the dogs are the ones who find it) noticed people ****? I mean, I have seen many times **** with tissues in it that were clearly used to "wipe".... unless the dogs have discovered how to wipe themselves See, its not just dogs

Davidth88

I am glad to see this thread coming back to life ( as the OP ).

I walk along the Avenue a lot , and I have taught my daughter to cycle there ( at a quiet time ).

I have seen dogs ' attack ' people on bikes along the avenue , by attack I mean run at them and bark , often causing the person to swerve or wobble etc

I have not witnessed any accidents between bikes and pedestrians on the avenue.

As for tidying up after your dog , TBH , I think you should do there wherever the dog does their business. I don't really follow your logic Karlitto.

Thinking about dogs being ' under control ' , I was reminded of the video of Fenton in Richmond Park

Have a great Patricks weekend everyone , and lets hope the weather allows us to enjoy Castletown .

Karlitto

Indeed, have a great weekend.

Well David, it's like this, if the dog goes in long grass, whats the problem? Really, please tell me. Do you have a problem with fox, bird and rabbit poo? And as I said previously which you seem to have missed about the human poo.

Just a point about the cycling, its fine, with care. Same with dogs off the lead. Now, take your point and reverse it, just because you have never seen a cyclist being involved in an accident happen, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Like I have never seen someone being chased on a bike by a dog, I am sure it happens.

But, quite frankly, I get the feeling from you that you are one of the people I am talking about when I say "there are some people that have the mentallity of *this is a human place, no one else, so I am not going to compromise*"

I am not trying to be unfair here, and sorry if I sound harsh, but, someone needs to talk from the other side.

If there is no compromise from the non dog walker side, why should the dog walkers bother to try to compromise? I mean, its simple, we could get our dogs run freely, and yes we could pick up after our dogs. But, what is better, letting our dogs run up and sniff someone (as there is nothing within the law or bye laws making this illegal unless the dog is aggresive no matter how scared the person may be) and picking up all the poo, or when a dog goes over to to a person who doesn't want them to and call them back and pick up the poo in the commonly used walk ways and areas ignore the tall grass where it is rarley used. (if used at all)

Does this make sense?

Davidth88

Eh ?

Actually , if you follow my posts from the beginning you will see that I don't agree with dogs having to be on leads while in the fields , I like to see dogs running about and they need to have that facility .

TBH , dogs are a small part of any issues within Castletown , the drinking and general anti social behaviour is much more important.

I have witnessed ( and tackled ) youths setting fire to trees and basically actiing the maggot there . The litter down on the river walk is appalling

Joe Public

Karlitto wrote: »

Now, on to a slightly related topic, has anyone but me (dog walkers mainly as the dogs are the ones who find it) noticed people ****? I mean, I have seen many times **** with tissues in it that were clearly used to "wipe".... unless the dogs have discovered how to wipe themselves See, its not just dogs

This kind of stuff unfortunately relates to Castletown as well, often as a result of teenagers on the booze and lack of inhibitions or maybe can't go home until they sober up. You may have seen some of the results of teenagers mixed with booze in this weeks Liffey Champion arising from "promotions" in Maynooth last week. The gardai were seemingly powerless and used the lack of manpower answer.
The legal age for alcohol drinking should be raised to 21 in this country with severe penalties for anyone in breach and anyone supplying. Some teenagers should be on a lead in public places when under the influence:)
I don't think cutting the sponsorship from drink companies for sporting events will make much difference.

baaba maal

The issue of bye laws is not that simple. The Control of Dogs Act states that dogs must be kept under "effective control"- it doesn't require dogs to be on a lead. Any bye law can only reinforce existing primary (enacted by the Dail) legislation.
In other words, KCC cannot introduce a bye law compelling dog owners to keep their dogs on a leash because their is no national law requiring this. The bye laws in relation to al fresco drinking are based on various bits of legislation relating to anti-social behaviour and so are based on antional legislation.
In terms of Castletown, it really is down the Gardai to enforce the law, but the reality of the situation is that the Gardai would prefer that outdoor 'recreational' drinking be done in places like Castletown because it means less complaints to them than if it is happening in housing estates around Celbridge.
Depressing but true.
In relation to dog poo, there really is a problem in owners not removing it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxocariasis
If it was your toddler playing in the long grass in Castletown who picked this up, you would be fairly narked.

Karlitto

Hi Baaba,

Whilst I see where you are coming from in terms of KCC not being able to introduce a bye law stating that dogs must be kept on a lead. They infact can as it is written into the control of dogs act that the local authority can enforce their own bye laws. I have read the entire act, just to make sure of my facts. There is a reason that you must have your dog on a lead under the dublin city council district at all times other than specified (depending on time of year, it is generally between 8 and 11 AM and 4-5 PM)

Now, I do agree with the general consencious here, the scumbags drinking is an issue, well, let me explain my view.

I have no problem what so ever with a couple of people going down to castletown (obviously not in the middle of the feilds....) and having a few drinks, a camp fire or even a BBQ, my issue is, the scumbags that do go down burn trees, break the trees, are abusive to passers by and leave the place in utter ****. I remember walking my dog down there one night, we met a polish family who were having a few drinks and had a little camp fire going, they were nice to talk to, and the next morning when I went down for another walk, I swear to you, there was not a single can, bottle, wrapper, the only thing that would show anyone was there was a burn patch on the ground, the sticks and rocks used for the camp fire were all gone. This I have no problem with, general courtesy and respect goes a long way.... clean up after yourself is the golden rule here, yet so much youth don't seem to get this...

I don't think putting the age to drink at 21 would do anything, your still going to have kids, by kids I mean <18 out drinking. Leave the age at 18, but do enforce heafty penalties for people who supply a minor.

Joe Public

There is already a bye law against drinking in public places in Celbridge for anyone and not just for underage. The garda have lost faith in the enforcement of it because it is up to them to issue the fines in the first place and then up to KCC to follow up but KCC don't. The people who regularily breach this bye law are aware of the lack of enforcement and do not fear it.

I see there are new signs up around Castletown saying that litter wardens and dog wardens are on patrol.

Karlitto

Indeed, it is sad to see,

I don't understand it though, I mean, Castletown, its a public place right? So, should the Gardi not be able to fine people and enforce it themselves? Law is law right?

I saw the new signs saying the dog and litter wardens are patrolling, I haven't met them myself, but know they patrol together. I have been told the dog wardens are requesting dog licences from everyone, so I took a photo of mine and keep it on my phone just in case.

To be hoenest, I et the feeling that the litter warden is only there for dog crap (as this is not the dog wardens jurisdiction), but, they should also go down there and take a look at the place on Friday and Saturday nights.. where the real problem is happening.

Joe Public

Bye laws are local laws and ultimate enforcement is by the local authority which is KCC.

Drinking under the age of 18 is covered by common law and the Gardai have full powers there.

I don't think KCC see litter warden and dog warden duties as being warranted outside the hours of 9-5. They should bring in the voluntary "civil police" to give a hand out.

Karlitto

Catch 22 so..... this sickens me....

Karlitto

Ok, so just checked it out,

Your right about the drinking in public and its down to the local authorities etc. However, they can be prosicuted by the Gardi for being "drunk" in a public place, which is infact common law.

As dumb as I find that law, they could get these troublemakers on these grounds.

The reason I say I find this law dumb is, you are in a pub, you drink, you get drunk, you walk home. Pub = public place, street you walk down to get home = public place.....