Careful Now!...Religion thread.

ohthebaby

kev9100 wrote: »

But what I can't stand about religion is that people actually waste their entire lives praying/worshipping to some deity that may or may not exist. I mean, there is so much more life and so many more important things to do. Why waste it?

Praying can act as a source of comfort and strength to some people. Say a close relative had died, praying for their salvation may let the prayer feel as if they are doing something to help the dead and give them some class of a purpose. Something like that.

whadabouchasir

kev9100 wrote: »

But what I can't stand about religion is that people actually waste their entire lives praying/worshipping to some deity that may or may not exist. I mean, there is so much more life and so many more important things to do. Why waste it?

But if you believe in it then its not a waste of time.Also I don't think that very many people spend their entire lives praying and if they do then it's probably because they think that prayer and worship of God is the most important thing in the world.

randylonghorn

Pygmalion wrote: »

The bible (the non-Jesus parts) did though (some people do argue over translations of the gay bashing admittedly), and not through careful manipulation or selective interpretation, it just comes right out and says it.
It's even more clear about advocating genocide and rape.

So yes, if you believe in the bible as the word of God then you must, as a rule, believe that homosexuality, masturbation and other stuff is forbidden.
On the plus side slaves got a pretty good deal.

Well, just as an aside, the "problem" with masturbation is based on the story of Onan, which actually has nothing to do with it ... it's the story of a man who refuses to lie with his brother's widow in accordance with old Jewish law. It's the literary flourish of "instead he turned aside and spilled his seed on the ground" which has been used as the basis of the doctrine.

But my basic point is that all those books of the old Testament and indeed the non-gospel were written by men who may have believed they were inspired by god (though sometimes I wonder if they all believed even that). I certainly don't believe they were. All through history men have used god as an excuse for their own prejudices.

I do believe though that Jesus was inspired by *something* ... by god, or just by great personal wisdom and goodness, I honestly don't know.

Noffles

Haha... religion... how many deaths in the "aid" of this....... absolute pile of ****E!!!

kev9100

whadabouchasir wrote: »

But if you believe in it then its not a waste of time.Also I don't think that very many people spend their entire lives praying and if they do then it's probably because they think that prayer and worship of God is the most important thing in the world.

I'm not saying the majority of people who "believe" spend their entire lives praying, but many do shape their entire lives around religion.

Piste

Noffles wrote: »

Haha... religion... how many deaths in the "aid" of this....... absolute pile of ****E!!!

If you can't be respectful and discuss this maturely why bother posting?

highlydebased

I've thought long and hard about religion. I decided to leave it behind probably for good. The amount of false hope it gave me was pathetic, it was genuinely ruining my life. Now I place belief and hope in myself and other things. Dont need no man in the sky for that. I plan on defecting at some stage, maybe not soon, but I'm sure I will, eventually. My mother is the only religious person in the family, though at this stage I think she's realised that I no longer have an interest, I was made go to mass up to 18- I have not been since.

**Timbuk2**

I believe in God, but not necessarily organised religion. I hardly ever go to Mass. There are aspects of the Catholic Church that I don't like - how homosexuals are treated, that condoms should be banned and that only men are allowed into the clergy. Just my opinions though.

I respect anybody's faith, even if it is to not believe in any religion/god. However, I think if everybody in the world followed in the Christian idea of love your neighbour as you love yourself, the world would be a much nicer place to live.

Pygmalion

randylonghorn wrote: »

Well, just as an aside, the "problem" with masturbation is based on the story of Onan, which actually has nothing to do with it ... it's the story of a man who refuses to lie with his brother's widow in accordance with old Jewish law. It's the literary flourish of "instead he turned aside and spilled his seed on the ground" which has been used as the basis of the doctrine.

It's also described as "unclean" (Leviticus I think, that's where a lot of the weird stuff comes from), but tbh so is everything else, and in fairness in the Old Testament if something doesn't merit a death sentence it's pretty much a miracle.

But my basic point is that all those books of the old Testament and indeed the non-gospel were written by men who may have believed they were inspired by god (though sometimes I wonder if they all believed even that). I certainly don't believe they were. All through history men have used god as an excuse for their own prejudices.

And 3 major religions take them as sacred texts.
I'm not arguing for adherence to the text obviously, but there are a lot of people who genuinely look to it for guidance, so explaining that it was written by men and isn't really the word of god won't change that.

The gospels are an exception to the madness thankfully, but most Christian churches hold the less favourable parts as valid too, if not as equal to the Gospels at least as a fallback.

kev9100

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

However, I think if everybody in the world followed in the Christian idea of love your neighbour as you love yourself, the world would be a much nicer place to live.

But that is not a Christian idea. It is basic human instinct to treat people how you would like to be treated and you must certainly do not need to be a Christian to be nice to each other.

randylonghorn

Pygmalion wrote: »

The gospels are an exception to the madness thankfully ...

Which was kind of my point!

Pygmalion

kev9100 wrote: »

But that is not a Christian idea. It is basic human instinct to treat people how you would like to be treated and you must certainly do not need to be a Christian to be nice to each other.

Even out of the major religions Buddhism got there before Christianity (it'd be stupid to say they got there first though, pretty much every civilisation seemed to have some variant).

**Timbuk2**

kev9100 wrote: »

But that is not a Christian idea. It is basic human instinct to treat people how you would like to be treated and you must certainly do not need to be a Christian to be nice to each other.

That's true, I worded my post somewhat ass-ways. What I meant is that people followed the ideas of relgious teaching etc. that the world would be a nicer place. I don't know why I specified Christian and I didn't mean that somebody needs to be religious to follow religious ideas

randylonghorn

kev9100 wrote: »

But that is not a Christian idea.

It's a very Christian idea actually, it's the core of the original Christian message.

If you mean that it's not necessarily confined to Christianity, then you're right, of course. And I agree with Pygmalion that Christianity wasn't the first religion to espouse it.

kev9100 wrote: »

It is basic human instinct to treat people how you would like to be treated ...

Do you honestly believe that? I'm afraid I don't think it is.

kev9100 wrote: »

... you most certainly do not need to be a Christian to be nice to each other.

That's definitely true.

Pygmalion

randylonghorn wrote: »

Which was kind of my point!

My point was just that it doesn't matter when 99% of Christians believe the non-Jesus parts too, or at least claim to/are part of a church that does. :P

kev9100

randylonghorn wrote: »

It's a very Christian idea actually, it's the core of the original Christian message.

What do you mean by the "origianal Christian message"?

randylonghorn wrote: »

Do you honestly believe that? I'm afraid I don't think it is.

I do actually. I may be naive, but I really do believe that humans are naturally inclined to be good to each other and unfortunately, outside factors get in the way.

Meller

I'm an athiest, but I do have a big interest in religion in general. Of course I respect all people and that some are religious - the amount of 'respect' I have for a lot of organised religion and its beliefs, however, is far more questionable. Much of what the major world religions believe seems no more likely or worthy of respect to me than the 'flying spaghetti monster', so I see no reason to treat it any differently - I'm not going to attack anybody or begin a screaming match with them for being a follower of either. Religion certainly doesn't justify bigotry or intolerance, so I feel the same way about people who use religion as their 'excuse' (I'm not saying that it's never a genuine belief, and realise that it often is, but it makes no difference in my eyes and all comes down to the same thing in the end - not being able to think for yourself) for this as I do anybody else who shares similar narrow-minded views.

So: not a fan of religion. I have no problem with religious people - faith is so personal and differs so much depending on the individual anyway - but if I disagree with something, I disagree, and make no special allowances for beliefs just because they stem from religion or are considered sacred by some.

QueenOfLeon

Just have something to add to what I said about respecting other peoples' religions and how they go about them. Most religious stuff "ordered" by the high up religious authorities (the Vatican for example) is fairly harmless, praying, mass, helping the poor, etc. It may be pointless (imo, well the praying bit :P) but its harmless so it doesn't bother me.

When religion interferes with a persons choices in life that literally could mean life or death...that enrages me. I'm talking refusing necessary operations and blood transfusions because the religion (not Christianity, can't remember which ones...) has denoted that this is how the person must live their life. I'm actually dreading ever being confronted with this situation when I (hopefully) end up working in hospitals, as I don't think I could sit back and let some man in the sky, or stack of books, make a decision that is not theirs to make.

Jamie Starr

For a start, I feel trying to understand the still mostly unknown and constantly expanding universe is difficult enough, thinking you know for sure what created it is just ridiculous. It's pointless for me to dwell on it anyway.
I think every interpretation of God we encounter as humans is therefore like a child's drawing of the real thing, and the universe is a bit like a fridge! There can be tons, they're all equally pointless and crude, but they make the fridge a bit more interesting.

I was raised Catholic, went to Mass for quite a long time, was even an altar boy (obviously an ugly one though, I was never abused, damn picky priests!). I'm glad I was made to go though, it made me think about things. If you look at the Bible, there's a simple enough message as far as Jesus goes: try to be friends, be good to people, it doesn't always work out, but hey, you tried. (I imagine the guy who wrote the Old Testament was reading a draft of the new one by his ghost-writer, saying stuff like "Amm..throw in some stuff about violent death..am..splitting temples and....oh being nailed to the cross! Great, let's go to tea!") It was just mucked up by some geeky/hardcore fans, and the modern world still has some big, frightening religion conventions.

The overall reason I don't like religion is it requires you extremely sure about the way things work, and I just don't think that's possible. I find a lot more confidence in uncertainty.

Fad

(This has no real logical flow*, adding bit as I go along - deal with it)

I'm an atheist. At times an overly philosophical atheist, I have a weirdly strong interest in religion (I was toying with studying religion and theology at one stage, it's useless, I know, but I'm interested), so I maintain a level of respect for it. The Catholic church might be an evil and corrupt organisation, but if we'd all be potato farming inbreds if it didn't rescue this country, so it was once a source of good, it just lost its way.

I did religion for the Junior and Leaving Cert (I did horrendously badly in LC religion due to my refusal to learn off essays, so I wasn't studying it purely for points) so in that sense, I'm a fairly informed atheist, it's not just a case of "lol religion lol".

But yeah, basically I believe life has no meaning whatsoever, what you do is of no supernatural consequence, but you only get to live once, so dont be a dick.

And a quote from one of my favourite songs: If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

*lol religion lol >_>

KnifeWRENCH

QueenOfLeon wrote: »

When religion interferes with a persons choices in life that literally could mean life or death...that enrages me. I'm talking refusing necessary operations and blood transfusions because the religion (not Christianity, can't remember which ones...) has denoted that this is how the person must live their life. I'm actually dreading ever being confronted with this situation when I (hopefully) end up working in hospitals, as I don't think I could sit back and let some man in the sky, or stack of books, make a decision that is not theirs to make.

I suspect you're thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses; they are against blood transfusions.

But tbh, I wouldn't have much sympathy for a Jehovah's Witness refusing a life saving blood transfusion; at the end of the day they are (presumably) not brainwashed and are capable of making their own decisions. So if they refuse a blood transfusion of their own accord, then it's their problem and I won't shed a tear when they die because it's their own fault.

Pygmalion

My main problem with these arguments is that "Oh sure just respect their beliefs" is thrown around too much without any clarification. No-one respects all religious beliefs, it doesn't matter whether you're religious or not.
There needs to be a clear line drawn when you talk about respect.

I'm not going to respect the beliefs of, for example, the Westboro Baptist Church, and I'm fairly sure no-one here telling people that they respect everyone else's religion does (at least I would hope not).
I'm also not going to respect the beliefs of anyone else who believes that homosexuality is a sin, or anyone who believes that women are objects, or that scientific education should be limited or perverted to accommodate their own unfounded beliefs.
I can respect people who believe in a god and don't believe in any of the above, but in that case it's the person I respect, completely independent to the beliefs.

Unfortunately for society, most/all major religions (and subdivisions within these religions) believe some, if not all, of the above, and possibly a lot more insulting and offensive stuff.

Claiming that someone's beliefs (or actions, in some cases) should be immune to any kind of criticism or rational thought, for any reason, is never going to help anyone in any way.

QueenOfLeon

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

I suspect you're thinking of Jehovah's Witnesses; they are against blood transfusions.

But tbh, I wouldn't have much sympathy for a Jehovah's Witness refusing a life saving blood transfusion; at the end of the day they are (presumably) not brainwashed and are capable of making their own decisions. So if they refuse a blood transfusion of their own accord, then it's their problem and I won't shed a tear when they die because it's their own fault.

True, but I still don't agree that the religion should have such a strong teaching against something (that their followers stick to without question) that when it comes to it, the person goes by what their religion said. I was asking my mother about this (she's a practicing Catholic), that if one of us was lying in a hospital bed waiting for a transfusion and the Pope/God told her not to let it go ahead. She basically said she'd tell them to feck off :P So what sort of belief/teaching has such an impact on its' followers that they go against all common sense in blind faith?

**Timbuk2**

Ah Jehovah's Witnesses - they called to my house two weeks ago.

While I think it's great that somebody can believe so passionately in religion, I really could do without all the reading from the bible and asking me what I thought about God's Kingdom. I told them I was an athiest to get rid of them - this was a huge mistake. I thought they were trying to sell me something hence all the effort of standing there for 10 minutes reading the bible etc., but in the end they just gave me a free magazine - you could have just put it in the letterbox.

randylonghorn

Pygmalion wrote: »

My point was just that it doesn't matter when 99% of Christians believe the non-Jesus parts too, or at least claim to/are part of a church that does. :P

Actually, I sometimes doubt that a lot of Christians truly believe the "Jesus parts", or at least truly live out of them, which is part of the problem.

And this little side-discussion started when I pointed out to challengemaster that the core Christian message as given in the gospels isn't difficult to modernise, as it has stood the test of time well, it's all the layers of mulch which has grown up around and on top of it that is the problem.

kev9100 wrote: »

What do you mean by the "origianal Christian message"?

The message of the gospels.

kev9100 wrote: »

do actually. I may be naive, but I really do believe that humans are naturally inclined to be good to each other and unfortunately, outside factors get in the way.

Well, I'm not going to argue with you, I have great time for idealists. I just hope life doesn't change your mind.

Fad wrote: »

I have a weirdly strong interest in religion

A lot of atheists have actually.

Fad wrote: »

But yeah, basically I believe life has no meaning whatsoever, what you do is of no supernatural consequence

Does that not imply though that only a belief in the supernatural / an afterlife is capable of giving a life meaning?

To me, what gives life meaning is what we do with it, the good (or evil) we do, how we treat others, the legacy we leave after us.

To take an extreme example, would you say that the life of Mahatma Gandhi had no meaning?

[A great Gandhi quote, by the way: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ]

Pygmalion

KnifeWRENCH wrote: »

But tbh, I wouldn't have much sympathy for a Jehovah's Witness refusing a life saving blood transfusion; at the end of the day they are (presumably) not brainwashed and are capable of making their own decisions. So if they refuse a blood transfusion of their own accord, then it's their problem and I won't shed a tear when they die because it's their own fault.

In general it's their own choice, but not for example when the decision is made on behalf of a child, or a relative too sick to make an informed decision.

seanbmc

Interesting thread.

I was brought up Catholic, my mother is still a good enough catholic and so is her mother. I was taken to mass a lot when I was younger and I only said prayers because my grandmother got me in the habit of saying them. I know this sounds strange but I used to always pray that my parents would stop arguing and get back togther,I even found a "special prayer" for requests from God but suprise suprise it didn't work. After time I realised that praying never really worked, I prayed for many things; I prayed that my Grandfather would recover and remember my name, I prayed for my lost pets to come home. I realised that nobody's prayers get answered and it just gave people a false sense of hope and kept them going.

The whole praying thing wasn't the only thing that made me lose faith, I just found to believe that there is a god or some supernatural being in the sky, watching down on us, that God created the whole Earth and that somehow we were going to go to heaven when we die. I kept wondering how people had such faith in something that they had no eveidence to back up just old documents. So many questions unanswerd.

I don't think there is a heaven. It's depressing to think that when we die...that's it, we're finished. Maybe it's like going into an eternal sleep? I don't know. Maybe part of me wishes there was a heaven, that maybe someday we would be reunited with our loved ones that we lost along the way...but I doubt it.

Lads,I'm just scratching the surface of what's on my mind and I think I will leave that for another time. Sorry if I'm too pesimistic. It will be interesting to read all of your posts. ( I haven't even started on what I think about the church's teachings and values as a whole)

I think that a Supernatural Creator is an entirely arbitrary explanation for existence, and furthermore, implausible.

Religion itself has some good ideas, but it also has many bad ones, and the encouragement of taking things on faith is not something I can respect.
I feel morality is best based on the Golden Rule, but we don't need a religion for that.

Meller

randylonghorn wrote: »

Does that not imply though that only a belief in the supernatural / an afterlife is capable of giving a life meaning?

To me, what gives life meaning is what we do with it, the good (or evil) we do, how we treat others, the legacy we leave after us.

To take an extreme example, would you say that the life of Mahatma Gandhi had no meaning?

[A great Gandhi quote, by the way: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ]

Definitely. I think that by life having no ultimate 'meaning' (i.e God, a God to serve, or an afterlife) it means life actually has more meaning because you have to find it for yourself, and find what that is for you, which is ultimately going to fulfil you a lot more and give you more of a purpose. If you and you alone can find your own personal 'meaning', I'd imagine you would die a lot happier and more satisifed than somebody who believes that God is and always has been their meaning, yet can never be certain of its existence and is still just guessing.

cheesefiend

I think that the concept of most major religions are all the same. Be a good person. But that's just what little knowlege I have on them tells me. I call myself Christian because I believe in what Jesus said. He may not have miraculously healed people or been the actual son of God but if we took what he said as a set of rules to live by the world would be a better place.

The thing I think I struggle with most is the afterlife. If there is heaven you have to believe in hell. If there is hell then what qualifies someone to spend eternity there? It's so hard to wrap your head around.