Building muscle - the argument

Sigi

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

dartstothesea

Haha. The bits of correct information thrown in for good measure had me going for a minute.

Hanley

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

So far, so good.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Mark Sisson, is that you?!

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Charles, Charles Poliquin, it's great that you're posting on boards!!

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Nooo it's Dorian Yates!!! Hi Dorian!!

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

Is that why my legs always grow on Smolov?

Sigi

dartstothesea wrote: »

Haha. The bits of correct information thrown in for good measure had me going for a minute.

Which parts don't you agree with?

And hanley,fraid I'm not any of them.In fact I haven't even heard of the the latter two and while Mark Sisson does present some interesting theories,I've never really delved into his stuff.

As regards your squat program.Are you sure that you would not see greater gains with more rest?

cardio,shoot me

Sigi wrote: »

Which parts don't you agree with?

And hanley,fraid I'm not any of them.In fact I haven't even heard of the the latter two and while Mark Sisson does present some interesting theories,I've never really delved into his stuff.

As regards your squat program.Are you sure that you would not see greater gains with more rest?

lolz, your a terrible troll

Sigi

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

lolz, your a terrible troll

Excuse me? If you have an arguement against anything I've said please present it otherwise do not attempt to demerit me.Everything I've said is correct.

Tonto86

Sigi wrote: »

Excuse me? If you have an arguement against anything I've said please present it otherwise do not attempt to demerit me.Everything I've said is correct.

Hmmm..... I didnt realise it was opposit day....

Sangre

I think you'll have to decide whether you want a six pack or you want to get bigger. Depending on your body fat percentage they may be slightly opposed goals. Having a six pack requires low body fat which is generally achieved with training and a strict diet. However, to add significant muscle mass you will need to train and consume enough calories to allow your body to grow.

I think you need to decide whether you want to be bigger or to have a six pack?

SpookyBastard

Sangre wrote: »

I think you'll have to decide whether you want a six pack or you want to get bigger. Depending on your body fat percentage they may be slightly opposed goals. Having a six pack requires low body fat which is generally achieved with training and a strict diet. However, to add significant muscle mass you will need to train and consume enough calories to allow your body to grow.

I think you need to decide whether you want to be bigger or to have a six pack?

Yeah. Forgot to mention that Nitro, I'm going down the bigger first then trim down later route. When I started out I was advised (and you sound like me) that the other route could take a lot longer. Feed yourself and build up a bit then work on the slimming/ripping down end of things.

Sigi

Yeah. Forgot to mention that Nitro, I'm going down the bigger first then trim down later route. When I started out I was advised (and you sound like me) that the other route could take a lot longer. Feed yourself and build up a bit then work on the slimming/ripping down end of things.

Woops forgot that myself.If you follow the guidelines I've outlined above,you will see pretty large gains with little to no adipose tissue being added.

TommyKnocker

Hi There

While I am no expert in the fields of physical training or sports nutrition and hold no certification in these areas, it would be MHO that the information in your post quoted below is mostly bad advice. Please see below for comments.

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods. - Agreed

Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible. Not as simple as that IMHO. Carbs are the bodies main source of energy, so depending on activity levels, folks will have different carb requirements. Carbs are not the enemy, even when the goal is fat loss.

Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference. - Agreed. Plus eating more protein then the body can utilise at one sitting will only result in it being excreted or stored as body fat

**** Edit ****
I have been advised that my statement above re eating excess protein is incorrect and in fact the body will oxidize the excess protein in the liver and use it for energy.
**** End of Edit ****

It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems. - Disagree. And so it would appear do GA Spiller, CD Jensen, TS Pattison, CS Chuck, JH Whittam and J Scala, who published an article in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. (abstract below)

Taken from [SIZE=-1]American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Vol 46, 474-480, Copyright © 1987 by The American Society for Clinical Nutrition, Inc[/SIZE]

To clarify the effects of protein on insulin and glucose response to sugars, 14 healthy normal-weight males and females were fed test meals containing 0, 15.8, 25.1, 33.6, and 49.9 g protein along with approximately 58 g carbohydrate. Serum samples were obtained at fasting time zero and 15, 30, 60, and 120 min postprandial. Mean areas of the glucose curves above fasting decreased with increasing protein dose. Protein-containing meals produced significantly lower (p less than 0.01) areas than the protein-free meal and the relationship between blood glucose area and protein dose was significant (p less than 0.001). Protein-containing meals produced significantly greater (p less than 0.01) insulin areas compared with the protein-free meal. However, no differences in insulin areas among the protein-containing meals were observed. These data support previous studies showing a blood glucose moderating and insulin-enhancing effect of protein ingestion.

From this abstract I understand that ingesting protein has a positive effect on blood sugar moderation and insulin production in the body.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories. - I would disagree. I would not go with any diet which seeks to eliminate any of the macro-nutrients, as I do not believe this to be a balanced diet. As I stated earlier carbs are not the enemy and I believe that they play an important role in human nutrition.

Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other. - Agree and disagree. While I would also advise getting your protein from different "natural sources" as you put it as much as possible, I also think that there is a place in an active persons nutritional strategy for protein supplementation. Different protein sources have different AA profiles, and as long as you are not over dependent on any one source for your intake, then you should be fine. Also the body can manufacture AA's it is short of as long as it has enough of the EAA's, provided by a well balanced diet.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible. - Agreed.

Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps. - This depends. From what I understand heavy weights in the low rep range 5-8 are good for strength gains. Moderate to heavy weight in the 8-12 rep range are good for size gains and light to moderate weight in the 12-20 rep range are good for muscle endurance. So the weight and rep range will be goal dependent. I would also disagree with the always training to failure.

As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury. - Again IMHO this depends. I would consider 10 secs per rep for size gains. For explosive power then I would go with 4-5 down/ 1 up.

Keep your form as strict as possible. - Agreed. Bad form leads to injuries.

Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights. - Absolute rubbish IMHO. I would only require a spotter for 1rm lifts. Any other time I would get by with the spotter bars on the benches or the rails in the power cage. Free weight will engage a larger number of stabiliser muscles then a machine will and with free weights you are not tied to the range of motion provided by the machine. IMHO you are better lifting slightly lighter with free weights then stacking up a machine.

Free weights over machines every day of the week and twice on Sunday!!!

Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above. - Now I probably don't need to point out how this is contradictory to your "use machines over free weights" advice do I? Or are you recommending the Smith Machine for squats, dead lift chest & overhead press :eek::eek: Or do we just ignore what are considered to be two of the most beneficial exercises (squats & Dead lifts) for size and strength gains

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't. - This I don't understand. Are you saying to do 1 full body workout every week? Because again I think this advice is rubbish. Yes I agree the body needs rest to repair and grow stronger, but IMHO I think too many folks use this as an excuse for not working hard enough.

Think back a couple of decades to the guys who worked on the docks and who unloaded the ships by hand. These were big well built, strong guys. Did they just work 1 day a week?

Or the guys working on building sites carrying bricks and blocks on Hods up ladders. Did these guys just bring blocks up on a Monday and then finish for the week?

IMHO the human body is remarkable and has proven itself to be remarkably adaptable. So while I would agree that the body recovers and grows during rest periods, IMHO 6 days between working a muscle is way over kill.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

My only question would be could you provide the resources from which you gleaned the advice you provided in your post above please?


Best Regards,

M

chadmustang

nitromaster wrote: »

i dont seem to gain weight no matter what i eat

You probably think you're eating alot when really you're not.
And about the working out.. My opinion i you need to do a lot of reading on the basics of training and exercise before get into an type of training program. Learn the basic lifts and build up your foundation then work from there.
The basics, incase you don't know, are Squats (front and back), Deadlifts, Presses (bench and overhead), Rows (all types), Chins, Dips and Push up.

chadmustang

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

He's a complete beginner why can't he just squat and eat cleaner?
Machine are not in any way superior to free weights by the by.

Also, where did you get this superset idea/monstrosity from?

rocky

B-Builder wrote: »

Plus eating more protein then the body can utilise at one sitting will only result in it being excreted or stored as body fat

Not quite, if you excrete protein, you're sick, and protein very rarely gets stored as body fat, for all intents and purpuses we can say never. What happens, if you eat more protein than can be used for building/repairing muscle and other processes that require AAs, the body will oxidize the protein in the liver and use it for energy.

Magic Eight Ball

B-Builder wrote: »

Agreed. Plus eating more protein then the body can utilise at one sitting will only result in it being excreted or stored as body fat

This is a perfect example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
I never get tired of hearing.

Can you provide some insight or links for us?

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

cheers brah, you sound like you know what you're at. can i hire you as a personal trainer/nutritionist?

TommyKnocker

Magic Eight Ball wrote: »

This is a perfect example of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing!
I never get tired of hearing.

Can you provide some insight or links for us?

Hi

Can I provide links where I read that excess protein is stored as fat or excreted, sure I can. "Just search for "excess protein in the body" in google and you will find loads. I have also read numerous times that all excess calories are stored as body fat.

I have been told and acknowledged that this is in fact incorrect and have done some more reading on the topic.

As I stated at the start of the post you pulled that line from, I am no expert or hold no qualifications in the fields of physical fitness or nutrition. So I apologise for posting a factually incorrect statement. I was corrected (something I am thankful for) and now I know a little more than I did when I woke up this morning.

Cheers for pulling me up on this.


Best Regards,

M

Doug Cartel

chadmustang wrote: »

You probably think you're eating alot when really you're not.

This is important.

I'm about 72kg right now, but I've spent most of my late teens and adult life at about 63kg, and back then I'd often get people saying to me "my god you eat like a horse, how do you not put any weight on?"

Thing was, when I actually looked at my eating patterns, it turned out that I have a habit of going for days eating tiny amounts of food, especially if I was busy with work or whatever, and then having the occasional large meal. Don't get me wrong, In no way was I doing some kind of binge and purge kind of thing, but when you added up how much I was eating in a week, it wasn't all that much.

As soon as I made sure to get all my meals every day, and eat something proper each time, the weight shot up.

Sigi

In response to b-builder:

Not as simple as that IMHO. Carbs are the bodies main source of energy, so depending on activity levels, folks will have different carb requirements. Carbs are not the enemy, even when the goal is fat loss.

Naturally, Carbohydrate is not the bodies main source of energy,fat is.Saturated fat for the most part.Carbohydrate is an inefficient form of fuel when compared with fat,more calories are lost when metabolized and it is not as calorie dense to begin with.Then we have raised insulin levels which reduce growth hormone and testosterone levels,not to mention damage to the immune system. No they are not the enemy, they just shouldn't be part of the picture,they are completely unnecessary and bring about more harm than good.
Unless we are talking about fructose.That stuff is the enemy.

Agreed. Plus eating more protein then the body can utilise at one sitting will only result in it being excreted or stored as body fat

**** Edit ****
I have been advised that my statement above re eating excess protein is incorrect and in fact the body will oxidize the excess protein in the liver and use it for energy.
**** End of Edit ****

Yes excess protein is oxidized via gluconeogenesis into glucose.Which then raises insulin levels and if not used is stored as fat.

I would disagree. I would not go with any diet which seeks to eliminate any of the macro-nutrients, as I do not believe this to be a balanced diet. As I stated earlier carbs are not the enemy and I believe that they play an important role in human nutrition.

Carbohydrate is needed metabolically in small amounts,not dietary.All the carbohydrate the body needs to fully function can be obtained via gluconeogenesis.

Agree and disagree. While I would also advise getting your protein from different "natural sources" as you put it as much as possible, I also think that there is a place in an active persons nutritional strategy for protein supplementation. Different protein sources have different AA profiles, and as long as you are not over dependent on any one source for your intake, then you should be fine. Also the body can manufacture AA's it is short of as long as it has enough of the EAA's, provided by a well balanced diet.

No problems here. If somebody was following the advice above,eating mainly natural saturated fats(animals) they would be getting enough protein(and glucose) to need taking supplements.But as for what you've said,I agree.

This depends. From what I understand heavy weights in the low rep range 5-8 are good for strength gains. Moderate to heavy weight in the 8-12 rep range are good for size gains and light to moderate weight in the 12-20 rep range are good for muscle endurance. So the weight and rep range will be goal dependent. I would also disagree with the always training to failure.

Strength is directionally proportional to to length of the cross-section of the muscle.You can not increase size without strength or vice-versa.As for muscle endurance I'm not entirely sure what you mean.If you're talking about ability to do work then that is dictated by the maximum force output which in turn is dictated by size.Though I think I may have misunderstood on that one.

Again IMHO this depends. I would consider 10 secs per rep for size gains. For explosive power then I would go with 4-5 down/ 1 up.

Same thing.Force=mass x acceleration.How explosive you can be is down to how strong the muscle is.

Absolute rubbish IMHO. I would only require a spotter for 1rm lifts. Any other time I would get by with the spotter bars on the benches or the rails in the power cage. Free weight will engage a larger number of stabilizer muscles then a machine will and with free weights you are not tied to the range of motion provided by the machine. IMHO you are better lifting slightly lighter with free weights then stacking up a machine.

Free weights over machines every day of the week and twice on Sunday!!!

i was talking about if you're going to absolute failure.It is dangerous and mentally harder to do if you risk the weight falling on you.As for free weights vs machines...1.Please name these stabilizer muscles?And is regard machines as superior for a multitude of reasons..1.safety,multi-directional resistance as opposed to just down,constant force even when muscles are fully contracted and extended.Ability to easier limit range of motion...to name a few.

Now I probably don't need to point out how this is contradictory to your "use machines over free weights" advice do I? Or are you recommending the Smith Machine for squats, dead lift chest & overhead press Or do we just ignore what are considered to be two of the most beneficial exercises (squats & Dead lifts) for size and strength gains

I'm assuming a complete beginner without a spotter in which case i would not recommend squats to failure and ensure perfect form on dead-lifts.If you want,substitute squats for leg press and add in dead-lifts.There IMHO two of the best exercises but I would want to ensure the person fully knew what they were doing before I'd recommend them.

This I don't understand. Are you saying to do 1 full body workout every week? Because again I think this advice is rubbish. Yes I agree the body needs rest to repair and grow stronger, but IMHO I think too many folks use this as an excuse for not working hard enough.

Think back a couple of decades to the guys who worked on the docks and who unloaded the ships by hand. These were big well built, strong guys. Did they just work 1 day a week?

Or the guys working on building sites carrying bricks and blocks on Hods up ladders. Did these guys just bring blocks up on a Monday and then finish for the week?

IMHO the human body is remarkable and has proven itself to be remarkably adaptable. So while I would agree that the body recovers and grows during rest periods, IMHO 6 days between working a muscle is way over kill.

Yep 1 full body workout a week.And no its not an excuse to just work harder.It absolutely kills me to have to wait a week in between workouts but it works best.I've experimented with rest periods as have others and everybody produced best gains with rest between 5-10 days, so to a beginner i recommend start with 1 week.

No the dockworkers didn't work once a week.They worked the majority of the day,every day for years.The body will adapt,but can you say with full confidence that if they had taken days off they would have not been even stronger? Sure if you go to the gym every day for years you will be big(provided its genetically possible) but that doesn't mean there isn't a better way of going about it.

And no i don't think a week is overkill at all.If anything it should be longer.Interrupting the recovery process isn't going to speed things up at all.And the bull**** I've heard people say about muscles beginning to shrink after 3 days or so is ludicrous.


The different points above are from a vast array of resources.If you want resources on a particular topic I'll have a look but It'd take me hours to find references for everything above.

Compak

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

I got to disagree here.

Keep protein high, yes muscle synthesis is limited but it is still an excellent calorie source with excellent thermogenic and release properties

Also don't slash carbs, muscle synthesis cannot occur if your AMPK levels are raised and MTOR signaling is reduced from, a reduced glycogen state. This is especially important around training where the natural tendency is for an upregulation in this negative signaling till one hour after training.

Also you over exaggrate the effect of carbs and insulin on GH/IGF-1 and especially testosterone levels. What you are missing is that insulin is the most anabolic hormone in the body, yes more nabolic than the others mentioned.

You want to build muscle you train hard and eat big.

Increase your calories if you are not seeing gains, many need 6/7 meals a day of which I recommend the first three/four to be a protein carb mix and last 2/3 to be protein and fat and fibrous


This recommendation about maximum saturated fat seems wrong and dangerous.Are you trying to manipulate Arachidonic Acid production or something? This is a dreadful broad recommendation to make with saturated fat being the primary signal for liver cholesterol synthesis and linked to certain cancers.

chadmustang

Sigi wrote: »

so to a beginner i recommend start with 1 week.

What are you talking about... beginners can do nearly anything and see gains. Once a week is ridiculous. A lot of beginners could squat 3x a week!

Sigi wrote: »

but It'd take me hours to find references for everything above.

Probably because you'd have to write it yourself first.

drdeadlift

Great thread guys.

By the looks of it the op should have asked his q somewhere else.

Carl Sagan

To Nitromaster, look at this program http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/The_Starting_Strength_Novice/Beginner_Programs and learn how to do the exercises here http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Weight_training_exercises and elsewhere on the internet. Do the exercises with perfect form (do them properly) and don't pile weight onto the barbell too fast.

Eat loads of eggs and dairy products, chicken, steak, beef and other meats for your protein intake. Eat lots of these things at every meal. Protein helps maintain and build muscle - but you'll need enough carbs too.

Eat carbohydrates like potatoes, oats, brown wholemeal bread, and fruit. They're basically eaten for energy, so don't go overboard with these. Make sure to eat a lot of carbs before weight training and afterwards for proper energy and recovery.

For your fat intake, eat lots of different types of nuts. The good kinds, like brazil and hazel nuts. And almonds. The yolks in eggs are a good source, as are fish. Fats are important so don't forget to eat them. They're a great way of getting calories in.

Finally, eat loads of vegetables (as much as possible), and try and drink loads of milk. Start by drinking a litre a day for a week and then up it to two litres.

You probably won't have visible abs this way but you'll get a lot stronger and bigger. And if you want them further down the line, you can diet and have ones that actually look decent.



Oh, and don't forget to stretch on your days off.

Tico

sigi your nutrition advice is absolutely horrendous, glucose is the bodys preferred source of energy which comes from Carbs, not fat, and certainly not saturated fat, you must be pulling the piss and i hope to god you are

colly10

Sigi wrote: »

Yep 1 full body workout a week.And no its not an excuse to just work harder.It absolutely kills me to have to wait a week in between workouts but it works best.I've experimented with rest periods as have others and everybody produced best gains with rest between 5-10 days

I've got to assume that elite bodybuilders would be the be the most knowledgeable when it comes to how to work out correctly, considering that they have achieved the greatest results. Are they all taking 5-10 days off as the new think and using machines only?

Sigi

colly10 wrote: »

I've got to assume that elite bodybuilders would be the be the most knowledgeable when it comes to how to work out correctly, considering that they have achieved the greatest results. Are they all taking 5-10 days off as the new think and using machines only?

And thats one of the many assumptions responsible for the amount of bull**** that exists in the fitness industry.You assume, like most that their physiques are down to their methods of training and not simply due to statistical variation across a huge population.Out off the population,you will find some tall,some small,some big,some small.The fact that somebody happens to be on a particular end of the bell curve does not make them an authority in any way, even though most like to think they are. Your time would be better served studying the science behind bodybuilding rather than listening to those that happen to have the correct genetics ,because theres a 99% chance, you're not one of them.

Sigi

Tico wrote: »

sigi your nutrition advice is absolutely horrendous, glucose is the bodys preferred source of energy which comes from Carbs, not fat, and certainly not saturated fat, you must be pulling the piss and i hope to god you are

To make as generalized and misinformed statement I have to assume you have no clue.And you seem to imply there's something worse about saturated over non-saturated fats??

Mellor

Sigi wrote: »

Yes excess protein is oxidized via gluconeogenesis into glucose.Which then raises insulin levels and if not used is stored as fat.

This is not true.
a metabolic function exists to convert protein into fat, but in general it will almost never happen.


Stren

gth is directionally proportional to to length of the cross-section of the muscle.You can not increase size without strength or vice-versa.As for muscle endurance I'm not entirely sure what you mean.If you're talking about ability to do work then that is dictated by the maximum force output which in turn is dictated by size.Though I think I may have misunderstood on that one.

A cross section doesn't have a length. It has an area.
Secondly, obviously as size increases, so does strength. And visa versa. but the two are not proportional. there are different mucle densities, and even muscle fibre types.

Same thing.Force=mass x acceleration.How explosive you can be is down to how strong the muscle is.

lol, I love the way you post a science fact (F=ma), then make an unrelated statement. Explosiveness, is basically a way of saying speed. F=ma in no way links this to strength.

1.Please name these stabilizer muscles?And is regard machines as superior for a multitude of reasons..1.safety,multi-directional resistance as opposed to just down,constant force even when muscles are fully contracted and extended.Ability to easier limit range of motion...to name a few.

LOL
.

And the bull**** I've heard people say about muscles beginning to shrink after 3 days or so is ludicrous.

The different points above are from a vast array of resources.If you want resources on a particular topic I'll have a look but It'd take me hours to find references for everything above.

how about you just find references for the parts where you are talking out your arse. The other half is right, nice ploy when trolling tbh, 50% fact with 50% waffle, i guess that a falafel.

Sigi

I was not talking about protein to fat, I was talking about protein to glucose,glucose to fat,which does happen.

Right, I should rather have said: Each muscle fiber,depending on type,will have a maximum force output at any given size.The increase in area of said muscle fibers due to hypertrophy will produce proportionate increases in maximum force generation attainable to the fiber.

I don't see how its an unrelated statement.My comment was in response to someone saying a certain amounts of reps for size and a certain amount for explosiveness. Lets say the muscle can generate force of 100 units at any given time.If we want to move mass of 100,we can do it if our acceleration is + to or below 1.If however we want to move explosively say at an acceleration of 5,then we have to drop the mass to 20.So if we then want to increase our explosiveness we have to increase the force the muscle can output,which is proportionate to size.So same thing.Increasing size is increasing explosiveness.(Obviously the units above are completely made up I'm just demonstrating the point).


In response to your "LOL", please tell me why you believe free weights to be superior?

Well I haven't talked out my arse for any of it so I'm unsure to which parts you're referring.I assume you have evidence to prove wrong on my points?

Tonto86

Sigi wrote: »

I was not talking about protein to fat, I was talking about protein to glucose,glucose to fat,which does happen.

Right, I should rather have said: Each muscle fiber,depending on type,will have a maximum force output at any given size.The increase in area of said muscle fibers due to hypertrophy will produce proportionate increases in maximum force generation attainable to the fiber.

I don't see how its an unrelated statement.My comment was in response to someone saying a certain amounts of reps for size and a certain amount for explosiveness. Lets say the muscle can generate force of 100 units at any given time.If we want to move mass of 100,we can do it if our acceleration is + to or below 1.If however we want to move explosively say at an acceleration of 5,then we have to drop the mass to 20.So if we then want to increase our explosiveness we have to increase the force the muscle can output,which is proportionate to size.So same thing.Increasing size is increasing explosiveness.(Obviously the units above are completely made up I'm just demonstrating the point).


In response to your "LOL", please tell me why you believe free weights to be superior?

Well I haven't talked out my arse for any of it so I'm unsure to which parts you're referring.I assume you have evidence to prove wrong on my points?

Eh, are you now just quoting from the book "Body by Science"?

Do you get paid permission by sale or are you on an overall advertising wage?


If this is now allowed on boards I'd like to mention:

McDonalds Curley Fries
Cocacola
Lego

Sigi

If I was quoting from or advertising a book then I would mention it.Not very effective advertising seeing as I didn't.

Khannie

Closing this while I read back over it....

Khannie

Ok, there's an interesting argument / discussion going on here that I'm going to split off from the OP's post. If anyone ruins the OP's thread again they will be banned.

Sigi: I'm going to warn you not to make any statements of fact without backing them up with references to a publication of some kind because, to be honest, to me what you're saying sounds like 50% fact, 50% pure nonsense (or, as Will would call it "broscience"). Maybe it's 100% correct. If that's the case you should have no trouble backing it all up with links to appropriate studies.

The same applies to anyone else making statements of "fact".

The OP was looking to gain some mass people...not turn himself into some elite bodybuilder.

chadmustang

Mods can we get Sigi out of here.
I hate to be a negative nancy but he's talking absolute tripe trying to use big words to seem smarter and more informed than he really is.

And by the way.. elite bodybuilders DO know what they're talking about. Their lives reveolve around their sport. 24/7. So they might know a thing or 2 more than you, even if they do have superb genetics.

Will Heffernan

Sigi wrote: »

Well as for the eating well part. Cut out all processed foods.Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.The idea that you should consume huge amounts of protein is completely false.You want protein intake sufficient to build new muscle + maintain current but no more.There are genetic limits to the amount of muscle that can be synthesized at once and all the protein in the world wont make a difference.It will however,spike insulin levels,which brings a whole set of problems.

The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.Also, your protein should be from natural sources.Its really the amino acids that you need and most protein supplements contain unnatural ratios meaning that you get bottlenecked as there are too many of one amino acid and not enough of the other.

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

Keep your form as strict as possible.Unless you have a good spotter it is a lot easier and tbh,better to train using machines.As a tool they are quite superior to free weights.Use compound exercises,isolation is pointless at this stage.I would suggest the following: Chest Press,Overhead Press,Leg Press,Lat Pull down,Leg extensions and seated row.For each you should follow the guidelines above.

Now for the key part.Do this set in the one workout and perform it at MOST once every 6 days.Not enough rest is the main problem people have when training.Working out doesn't build muscle,it stimulates it to grow.If you don't give it the time it needs to grow,it won't.

Any questions,feel free to ask.

The only question I have is what are you taking...who prescribed it....and you should go back and see them because whatever it is and whatever the dose is....it's not enough.

the drifter

chadmustang wrote: »

Mods can we get Sigi out of here.
I hate to be a negative nancy but he's talking absolute tripe trying to use big words to seem smarter and more informed than he really is.

And by the way.. elite bodybuilders DO know what they're talking about. Their lives reveolve around their sport. 24/7. So they might know a thing or 2 more than you, even if they do have superb genetics.

Sigi has been warned above to back up the facts that are being quoted so we will see how this works out...

Anyway Will is here now if Sigi is able to back up these statments then were in for one hell of a discussion here...

Popcorn anyone?

Will Heffernan

the drifter wrote: »

Sigi has been warned above to back up the facts that are being quoted so we will see how this works out...

Anyway Will is here now if Sigi is able to back up these statments then were in for one hell of a discussion here...

Popcorn anyone?

He can't back any of them up...my guess is 18-22...just recently discovered the internet has something other than porn on it...he's decided to quote us the best bits.

Would be happy to point out what is what...some of it is sort of true but misquoted...some of it is just plain wrong...some of it is just myth.

That is cool though...I think we could get this all wrapped up in 3 or 4 posts by Sigi and myself...then he'll just start a new account and move on to something else

chadmustang

Will Heffernan wrote: »

That is cool though...I think we could get this all wrapped up in 3 or 4 posts by Sigi and myself...then he'll just start a new account and move on to something else

I would really like to see this... the debate that is!

Sigi

Right so you're saying 50% true ,50% false..so which things so you want references on??

cc87

Sigi, i'd love to see you back up your assertion that machine weights are better than free weights. I'd prefer to see good sources for this as well, as in articles or studies published in reputable journals.

Parsley

Sigi wrote: »

Right so you're saying 50% true ,50% false..so which things so you want references on??

absolutely everything you've said, please.

Will Heffernan

Sigi wrote: »

Right so you're saying 50% true ,50% false..so which things so you want references on??

Well...my first assumption was that you just don't have a clue what you were talking about....my second assumption was that you are actually Barry or someone else I know that is just trolling the internet.

If you are seriously making these points...which I still doubt you possibly could be...feel free to start backing them up...I'd settle for anecdotes at this stage let alone some actual research in the area.

Sigi

Will Heffernan wrote: »

Well...my first assumption was that you just don't have a clue what you were talking about....my second assumption was that you are actually Barry or someone else I know that is just trolling the internet.

If you are seriously making these points...which I still doubt you possibly could be...feel free to start backing them up...I'd settle for anecdotes at this stage let alone some actual research in the area.

Its somewhat difficult to argue everything at once, so if you could please pick a particular point you disagree with and we can argue them one at a time?

d'Oracle

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

is this all right to start with?

Sigi

d'Oracle wrote: »

is this all right to start with?

Cool,gimme a few mins.

Procasinator

Sigi wrote: »

Right so you're saying 50% true ,50% false..so which things so you want references on??

Picking up on one bit, some references on this:

Sigi wrote: »

[The vast majority of your caloric intake should be coming from fat.Preferably animal fat.As much Saturated as possible.A good ratio to aim for is around 70/30 fat to protein calories.

Are you saying this diet is a healthy diet for all, or more particularly a diet to help gain mass and strength? Do we care about heart, intestines, prostate, etc. when we bombard them predominantly saturated fats?

On top of references, could you give a food plan for a day to demonstrate an implementation of this breakdown?

Will Heffernan

Sigi wrote: »

Its somewhat difficult to argue everything at once, so if you could please pick a particular point you disagree with and we can argue them one at a time?

Sigi wrote: »

Cut out all processed foods.

So raw vegetables, fruit, meat and eggs? That's it...that's all we can eat?

Sigi wrote: »

Cut out as much carbohydrate as possible.

So no raw vegetables or fruit then? No I'm confused.

Sigi wrote: »

Keep protein intake at about 1 gm per lb of lean mass.

So say I eat 200grams of chicken...that's 1 gram per pound of my body weight...I don't eat any processed foods because you've told me to cut out all of those...I've avoided as much carbohydrate as possible like you said...that means I'll get about 400-450 calories a day? That should be grand if I was planning on killing myself slowly....oh....but wait a second...I thought you were telling me how I should build muscle?

Do you see where this is going Sigi? What you are talking about is absolute rubbish and that's just the first couple of lines. I'm sure you mean well....atleast I hope you do...but you realy just don't have a clue what you are actually talking about. As usual I have no idea how to actually tell you that without hurting your feelings...that aside...it's unfortunately still true.

Sigi

Now for the exercise. You want to train as intensely as possible.Heavy weights low reps.Performing one set of 6-10 reps to failure will be sufficient for any muscle group.When I say failure I mean that no matter what,if somebody had a gun to your head,you couldn't move that weight one inch further.You should choose a weight that will allow failure in 6-10 reps.As for cadence, keep about 5 seconds up/down or about 10 seconds per rep.This eliminates momentum,keeps the muscle under constant stress and prevents injury.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9777681
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Citation/1994/05001/651_Equivalent_Improvement_in_Strength_Following.653.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369792
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3246465
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1996/02000/Effects_of_Training_Frequency_on_Strength.2.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033399

Theres a few to begin with.

Khannie

Will Heffernan wrote: »

The only question I have is what are you taking...who prescribed it....and you should go back and see them because whatever it is and whatever the dose is....it's not enough.

cc87

Sigi wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9777681
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Citation/1994/05001/651_Equivalent_Improvement_in_Strength_Following.653.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369792
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3246465
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1996/02000/Effects_of_Training_Frequency_on_Strength.2.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033399

Theres a few to begin with.

I'm sorry, but would you mind pointing out which of those links refer to studies which prove your point about 6-10 rep range and your 10 second reps??

Hanley

Sigi wrote: »

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9777681
http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Citation/1994/05001/651_Equivalent_Improvement_in_Strength_Following.653.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17369792
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3246465
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/1996/02000/Effects_of_Training_Frequency_on_Strength.2.aspx
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4033399

Theres a few to begin with.

Ok, and now for real life.