why so passionate?

MarkGrisham

I've just wandered into the board, so I'll give my €0.02:

I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)
Surely if you believe there is no God then you must be quite calm about the matter, however in any debate I ever read I feel like they are attacking and rather cross?

Some people get cross when talking, full stop. It's hardly limited to atheists.

Is it because of the damage religion has done in the world that you feel its your duty to change people's mind about religion and God (or Gods)?

Personally, no. I've better things to do with my limited time on earth.

Do you feel that any believers are stupid and all stupid people must learn of how stupid they are?

People in general believe in all sorts of crazy stuff. Religion, advertising, etc. Again, not limited to any one group eh?

I would think that if religion doesnt affect you in any big way in life surely you dont care but I get the feeling you do care... a lot.

Well if you had to put up with swathes of people talking crazy stuff all the time, how'd you feel? I don't get too upset myself but I can see why some atheists take it personally.

seamus

When you are too tolerant, you start to tolerate intolerance.

I'm sure almost everyone on this board would be more than happy to just let everyone else believe whatever the hell they want to believe, off you go, no skin off my nose.

Unfortunately most religions don't have the same view and they believe that everyone else should have their beliefs.

So when nobody else is playing by your rules, you're going to lose the game, you need to play by their rules - i.e. argue your point of view when presented with a different one and try to convince people that you are right (or unwilling to change!).

The sense is that if the non-religious keep their mouths shut, then they will continue to be required to take part in other religions' ridiculous little farces, just to get through life with any degree of success. But if we can eliminate religious influence on our day-to-day lives, then everyone is truely equal. When they stop trying to force religion into our schools, we can stop trying to force science into their churches.

If religion was confined to the churches, mosques and synagogues, you'll find that this forum would be a whole lot quieter.

Goduznt Xzst

bluecatmorgana wrote: »

I was wondering why atheists and agnostics on boards and in the public eye are so passionate about a non-belief? (or is it a belief in itself)

Two words. The Internet.

Due to so much information required for human communication being lost when you boil down an opinion to purely text alone people tend to hyperbolize a lot on the internet.

Nobody listens or responds to moderate opinions. Words like "maybe" and "probably" don't work well on the net. If you want someone to listen to your opinion and reply to it you have to get angry, shocking and pick a side and defend it with all the words in your arsenal.

Outside of the internet, the majority of Atheists are mainly apathethic, which is part of the reason we are such a large silent minority. Which is in stark contrast to the way they appear on the net. The problem with becoming a free thinker is that you begin to accept that even though the worlds religions are not fit to speak for humanity, neither is any other 1 organization, let alone yourself. So you become apathethic to what everyone else should be doing and only concern yourself with how you act.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." - Betrand Russell

mikhail

krudler wrote: »

Also it affects government decisions and elections, come local election time are the old biddies more likely to vote for that nice man Tom who they see in the church every Sunday or that baby eating athiest? Its a pity there are probably a lot of agnostic/athiest politicians or government officials that probably hide the fact due to the politics involved in declaring you dont believe in god. It affects American politics even more, christians vote for christian candidates,always have. Look at Bush with all his bible thumping post 9/11..

Heck, having read his books, I'm extremely sceptical about Obama's faith. He seems to have chosen a nice church at the right time for his political career, and what he writes about it feels very guarded. Does anyone think he'd have gotten elected if he was publicly without religion?

amacachi

Dave! wrote: »

Personally speaking I find it a bit irritating when people spout bullsh*t in general, which is why you will often see me getting worked up about issues such as anti-vaccine people, ghosts/paranormal stuff, psychics, etc.

Religion fits in there too, so I get a bit worked up about that too. However religion also has an effect on my life, whereas the other stuff (some of it) can be pretty benign.

That's pretty much my view and it both influences and is influenced by my political views. But that's going a little off thread I think. :pac:

krudler

mikhail wrote: »

Heck, having read his books, I'm extremely sceptical about Obama's faith. He seems to have chosen a nice church at the right time for his political career, and what he writes about it feels very guarded. Does anyone think he'd have gotten elected if he was publicly without religion?[/QUOTE]

In America? not a chance, you get elected based on who you choose to appeal to, and the bible belt votes can swing an election.

Galvasean

mikhail wrote: »

Does anyone think he'd have gotten elected if he was publicly without religion?

Not a hope.

mikhail

Guys, that was a rhetorical question.

Galvasean

mikhail wrote: »

Guys, that was a rhetorical question.

Rhetorical eh....


....


Yes?

amacachi

7?

midlandsmissus

seamus wrote: »

When you are too tolerant, you start to tolerate intolerance.

I'm sure almost everyone on this board would be more than happy to just let everyone else believe whatever the hell they want to believe, off you go, no skin off my nose.

Unfortunately most religions don't have the same view and they believe that everyone else should have their beliefs.

So when nobody else is playing by your rules, you're going to lose the game, you need to play by their rules - i.e. argue your point of view when presented with a different one and try to convince people that you are right (or unwilling to change!).

The sense is that if the non-religious keep their mouths shut, then they will continue to be required to take part in other religions' ridiculous little farces, just to get through life with any degree of success. But if we can eliminate religious influence on our day-to-day lives, then everyone is truely equal. When they stop trying to force religion into our schools, we can stop trying to force science into their churches.

If religion was confined to the churches, mosques and synagogues, you'll find that this forum would be a whole lot quieter.

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy. Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me. If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it? And before the old argument of christmas gets raised, unless you are a pagan, the pagan festival aspect holds no wash either. /Rant.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me.

Wait...isn't that the very core principle of leading a happy life?

If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it?

Because religion has gotten its tentacles so firmly wrapped around society that one would need to become an anti-social hermit. Sure, in principle I should boycott my sister's Church wedding because I disapprove of all this religion nonsense, but I need to prioritise.

And a day during the winter where we swap presents, eat too much food and get drunk hardly belongs purely to religion. Call it Mr Spock Day for all I care.

MagicMarker

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy. Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me. If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it? And before the old argument of christmas gets raised, unless you are a pagan, the pagan festival aspect holds no wash either. /Rant.

You seriously expect me to say no to chocolate, presents, boxes of roses and a turkey dinner?

Listen, I'm an atheist, not an idiot.

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

Wait...isn't that the very core principle of leading a happy life?



Because religion has gotten its tentacles so firmly wrapped around society that one would need to become an anti-social hermit. Sure, in principle I should boycott my sister's Church wedding because I disapprove of all this religion nonsense, but I need to prioritise.

And a day during the winter where we swap presents, eat too much food and get drunk hardly belongs purely to religion. Call it Mr Spock Day for all I care.

You're missing the point. I don't care that you do all that. By all means do what you want, just don't do it and then whinge about religion impinging on your life.

krudler

MagicMarker wrote: »

You seriously expect me to say no to chocolate, presents, boxes of roses and a turkey dinner?

Listen, I'm an atheist, not an idiot.

And a day sat plonked on the couch stuffing yourself with sweets while watching Die Hard? best part of the year

seamus

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then?

The religious portions yes. At easter I get a chocolate egg and a couple of mandatory days off. Can't see how that makes me a hypocrite. At christmas, we have an excuse to exchange gifts with the people we love, sit around and enjoy ourselves and generally relax and take it easy. The various religions might celebrate their various festivals around then, but that doesn't preclude me from having a bit of craic. No I don't have a crib, no I don't go to midnight mass, yes I do celebrate Santa Claus's birthday on that day.

Church weddings? Other religious days off?

Why would I not go to a friend's wedding, however they choose to celebrate it?

And no, I don't take any religious holidays off. I take the normal public holidays plus anything that my employer assigns as a mandatory day off.

krudler

seamus wrote: »

The religious portions yes. At easter I get a chocolate egg and a couple of mandatory days off. Can't see how that makes me a hypocrite. At christmas, we have an excuse to exchange gifts with the people we love, sit around and enjoy ourselves and generally relax and take it easy. The various religions might celebrate their various festivals around then, but that doesn't preclude me from having a bit of craic. No I don't have a crib, no I don't go to midnight mass, yes I do celebrate Santa Claus's birthday on that day.
Why would I not go to a friend's wedding, however they choose to celebrate it?

And no, I don't take any religious holidays off. I take the normal public holidays plus anything that my employer assigns as a mandatory day off.

I know most people who are christians/catholics who spend christmas the exact same way, christmas is barely even a religious festival to a lot of people anymore, its about family and presents and food and drink and arguments and bored grandparents and repeats of the Wizard of Oz and drinking too much and paper hats and seeing the relatives the once a year you bother to.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

You're missing the point. I don't care that you do all that. By all means do what you want, just don't do it and then whinge about religion impinging on your life.

I will do all of that, and I will still whinge about religion impinging on my life. Attending a wedding and celebrating a winter festival does not mean I am required to approve of the angelus, pro-Catholic education and homophobia.

Shenshen

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy. Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me. If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it? And before the old argument of christmas gets raised, unless you are a pagan, the pagan festival aspect holds no wash either. /Rant.

Er... I've worked both Christmas and Easter in the past, when my job required it, and I most certainly did not have a church wedding.

I think you will find many if not most atheists quite the same... so if you're looking for hypocrisy, keep looking.

robindch

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy.

As a christian, do you stick to Jeremiah 10:1-4, in which Jesus tells christians what he thinks of the cultural tradition of yuletide trees:

Jesus wrote:

[...] the customs of the peoples are worthless; they cut a tree out of the forest, and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel. They adorn it with silver and gold; they fasten it with hammer and nails so it will not totter.

I'd hate to think that an outspoken christian might have a christmas tree in their house, in flagrant breach of god's spoken word (for that would imply hypocrisy).

strobe

robindch wrote: »

Originally Posted by Jesus

Nemi

robindch wrote: »

As a christian, do you stick to Jeremiah 10:1-4, in which Jesus tells christians what he thinks of the cultural tradition of yuletide trees.

Its a good line, but isn't Jeremiah Old Testament? In which case its presumably not Jesus who is narrating, and the audience are presumably not Christians.

I mean, same difference, up to a point. But its in the same category as whether it still applies that a man cannot be admitted to the community of the faithful if his genitals have been damaged.

midlandsmissus

robindch wrote: »

As a christian, do you stick to Jeremiah 10:1-4, in which Jesus tells christians what he thinks of the cultural tradition of yuletide trees:I'd hate to think that an outspoken christian might have a christmas tree in their house, in flagrant breach of god's spoken word (for that would imply hypocrisy).

'Implies hypocrisy', hmmm, the irony of your post is...where did I say I was Christian? I'm not.

I also don't approve of alot of the Catholic church's stance on things, but what annoys me just as much is righteous athieists bemoaning the catholic church's influence on society, and then taking part in the good bits. We're all human and some atheists are just as hypocritical as the Catholic church, so don't be so righteous!

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

'Implies hypocrisy', hmmm, the irony of your post is...where did I say I was Christian? I'm not.

I also don't approve of alot of the Catholic church's stance on things, but what annoys me just as much is righteous athieists bemoaning the catholic church's influence on society, and then taking part in the good bits. We're all human and some atheists are just as hypocritical as the Catholic church, so don't be so righteous!

I'd never have a church wedding, but I'd imagine if an atheist did want one they want it there because churches are pretty, and they've had that image drilled into their skull all their lives. I've no problem with them taking advantage of the church for the sake of aesthetics.

Not to mention that the parents would almost certainly be expecting a church wedding.

midlandsmissus

Zillah wrote: »

I will do all of that, and I will still whinge about religion impinging on my life. Attending a wedding and celebrating a winter festival does not mean I am required to approve of the angelus, pro-Catholic education and homophobia.

As you said to me once before Zillah 'Avant Garde'!

The angelus - I've no real opinion on, it wouldn't be something I'd be bothered about

Pro - catholic education, this is bandied around alot - I was brought up an atheist and this never ONCE affected me in either primary school or secondary school. Both schools were extremely accomodating. I'm actually a bit annoyed at always hearing this, when I think of how lovely and accepting all my teachers were of me.

Homophobia - I don't agree with this but it's what the Catholic church believe. You're not affiliated with that group anymore so why do you care what they believe?

I've been brought up in the same country as you and the Catholic Church has had minimal effect on my life. Why waste so much time giving out about it, is what annoys me. It will only affect you if you let it.

Zillah

midlandsmissus wrote: »

As you said to me once before Zillah 'Avant Garde'!

I don't recall having a conversation about postmodern modes of expression with you, so I presume I once said "en garde!"

Pro - catholic education, this is bandied around alot - I was brought up an atheist and this never ONCE affected me in either primary school or secondary school. Both schools were extremely accomodating. I'm actually a bit annoyed at always hearing this, when I think of how lovely and accepting all my teachers were of me.

The real issue is that they can favour Catholic children over non-Catholic children. This is a serious issue in some of the more crowded school districts. And while you and I may have had fairly secular experiences in school, there were plenty of others who had pro-Catholic-fist-slamming sessions.

Homophobia - I don't agree with this but it's what the Catholic church believe. You're not affiliated with that group anymore so why do you care what they believe?

Their dictates influence the minds of millions. Even today the legacy of Catholic biggotry is affecting public policy. And there's the whole HIV/condoms thing, and the sex abuse and the sexism etc. There's all sorts of stuff wrong with the Catholic Church.

mohawk

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy. Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me. If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it? And before the old argument of christmas gets raised, unless you are a pagan, the pagan festival aspect holds no wash either. /Rant.

My solution is we can have santa and christians can go to mass to celebrate Christmas. As I see it we aren't the hyprocrites.

Ickle Magoo

If it's okay for christianity to adopt various pagan festivals, why can't I? How come I'm a hypocrite for giving chocolate eggs and taking holidays based on & even named after a pagan goddess or leaving a carrot and stocking out for a red-suited fat guy that lives at the north pole? What on earth have they to do with organised religion?

I don't think atheists or agnostics are the holiday nabbing hypocrites, tbh...

Galvasean

midlandsmissus wrote: »

So easter and christmas are out the window for you then? Church weddings? Other religious days off? That's what annoys me - the hypocrisy. Keep the good but don't let the bad impact on me. If atheists dont want religion to impact on their life, why participate in some of it? And before the old argument of christmas gets raised, unless you are a pagan, the pagan festival aspect holds no wash either. /Rant.

That would have been a great rant... if it hadn't been made and rebutted countless times before on this board.

midlandsmissus

robindch wrote: »

As a christian, do you stick to Jeremiah 10:1-4, in which Jesus tells christians what he thinks of the cultural tradition of yuletide trees:I'd hate to think that an outspoken christian might have a christmas tree in their house, in flagrant breach of god's spoken word (for that would imply hypocrisy).

This is what really annoys me. This has been thanked so far four times without people reading down two posts and seeing that it doesn't apply to me!

/end angry woman rant.