Gormley to close every SME in the country (motor tax)

Poly

More red tape and expense for small business.

Looks like this is the final push from Gormley to close every SME in the country.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-imposing-900-tax-hike-on-work-vehicles-470512.html

As a small business owner, I genuinely wonder why I bother anymore. It's getting very close to the point where it will not be worth it.

Victor

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

murphaph

I don't see the issue here. It's not a new tax per-se, just closing a loophole that exists at present that allows non-commercial users to pay a far reduced rate of motor tax on the premise that the vehicle is for commercial use.

If the vehicle is not being used exclusively in a commercial role, then it should be taxed like any other vehicle. Business owners who are legit have nothing to fear here...simple trip to the Guards and job done. Having said that, surely there should also be a penalty if you are subsequently caught cheating, not just a compulsion to then pay normal tax rates.

Poly

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

I know the mercedes jeep "commercial" brigade your're talking about and I agree with you on that.

I have two transits, I let one of my lads keep the van at home, because he often starts at 5am. It's the only vehicle he has. I've no problem with him using it for shopping etc.

There is option 3. Wind down the business and pay no more tax to a failed state. Emigrate

dermo88

My contempt for Feel and fail grows yet again as they get their bum buddies in the Green Party to pick up the used condoms. They have failed to provide viable alternatives. I could go into a rant but whats the point? I could advocate illegal acts, but thats a waste of time.

Gormless Gormley, Calamity Coughlan, Heavyweight Harney, Biffo Cowen, Dial-up Dempsey......How on earth did Ireland reach this point.

Would the last one to leave please turn off the lights?

When did I read that last?

1980 something.

I wonder how on earth Ireland ever got its Independence, when it tolerates buffoonery like this.

CarrickMcJoe

Gormley has really lost the plot this time. Being self employed I own a van for work and leave my kids (with their schoolbags that weigh nearly 3 stone) to school) . Now this tool says I have to pay €900 euro to do it.
I for one will not pay this tax as I feel all motorists are being screwed by the Greens and I dont believe there is one Garda who will take a prosecution against you as it is too hard to police.:mad::mad:

micfur

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

That SBP article does not suggest anywhere that it is a Dempsey plan. Did you link the wrong URL?

Rabidlamb

It's alright folks, it's one of these laws that we can choose whether to follow or not.
Like not having a dog licence or copying CD's at home it's only a crime if you're caught.
As the chances of that are one in a million so sleep easy.

This is Ireland, the land of laws with no enforcement.

danbohan

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

what absolute dublin 4 bs , gormley is a sad reflection of this failed state , all that brainless idiot can come up with in an is banning stag hunts and trying to get a few hundred comercial vechicles that might be used in a private capacity on occasion to pay the rip off road tax . its time people in this country took back control from this idiotic goverment

dan_d

And what happens to those who still work for companies that provide them with vans (ie construction companies) or commercial vehicles which they use to drive to and from work? Or which the company has no problem with them using as their main vehicle, even though it's a commercial?

I wonder how many guards are cursing the extra work that will be involved in this.And, if the first they heard of this was this morning's news bulletin.

The lunatics really are running the asylum.:mad:

Essien

What if a small van is taxed privately? I have a 206 van which is, for some reason, taxed privately.

Slaygal

It's one of the most ridiculous things I heard coming from this incompetent excuse for a government and that is truly saying something. :mad:

My other half is a delivery driver so when he's finished his drops for the day according to this stupid idea he would have to drive back to the base in Wicklow to leave the van there and drive his own car home again. I'm so angry with Gormless John, I can't even spell properly.

adru

As a newly acquired small van owner (struggling to start new business) I tried to tax van for private & commercial use and was not allowed. Motor tax office insisted it taxed for commerical use only. Yes I also need it for private use, I can not afford two vehicles, but I could of course sell van, and go on the dole............great idea John.............how much private use do you put your state car to.....:mad::mad::mad:

Nijmegen

Enie, meanie on which way to think on this one - and I'm a businessman.

On the one hand, yeah, he's trying to screw us for more.

On the other hand, I know more than a few people driving commercial vehicles that aren't, for the tax saving. It's the same story as claiming VAT back on the laptop you buy your daughter for christmas.

I think that if you do use a commercial vehicle as your primary vehicle outside of work, there should be a third tax bracket for this.

dan_d

Shooting themselves in the foot when you think about it - they are basically saying that people who drive commercials should have their own private cars aswell, thus increasing the number of cars in the country. Meanwhile they keep telling us that we need to get more cars off the roads and make more use of the non-existent public transport system.

Of all the crazy ideas to come up with as a money saver, it's one of the stupidest I've heard in a long time.

The_Honeybadger

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-now-facing-euro900-rise-in-motor-tax-2309056.html

It seems there is no end to the new levies and taxes they can dream up, I see no problem with a small business owner using the company van to drop their child to school or collect them etc, but Mr. Gormley seems to think they should be levied 900 euro for the priviledge. I doubt this will go through but I will be writing to my local three TD's later today to state my strong opposition to such a move. I don't drive a commercial vehicle but I know several people who use one for approx 90% business and probably 10% personal, and such a huge new tax would be completely unfair IMO.

gandalf

To be honest if the majority of the vehicles use is for non work related purposes then I see the logic in this.

However at a time when the country is in the worst recession ever heaping tax like this on the sector that does employ the majority of people and the sector that will help get us out of this recession is short sighted in the extreme.

As for the other point that this tax will encourage more cars to be bought, it seems to go against every thing the Greens stand for. Then again that's no surprise, maybe FF introduced them to their SIMI friends eh

OhNoYouDidn't

Same old NIMBYISM.

Same people screaming for public sector cuts and generally bemoaning lack of government action on the public finances are the first to whinge when their little loophole is closed.

They have been talking about closing this for years ffs.

Liam Byrne

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Same old NIMBYISM.

Same people screaming for public sector cuts and generally bemoaning lack of government action on the public finances are the first to whinge when their little loophole is closed.

They have been talking about closing this for years ffs.

They were talking about closing the Dáil expenses for years too, but they only half closed it because a complete solution was "unworkable".

Odd how they can't do that properly, but they can close this one completely.

I certainly agree that anyone using their commercial vehicle as much as they would an ordinary car should not have a full loophole.

However common sense should prevail; people get hit for a benefit in kind tax for company cars, and there should be an allowance for a certain amount of personal use of a commercial vehicle, say 5% or 10%.....it makes sense.

Glibly suggesting that - in a recession where many people are barely getting by - people should just go out and buy a car - is crazy.

Remember also that those people are already almost twice as much in tolls, etc, even if they are doing a run to the school or the shop.

Whatever planet the greens are trying to save, it's not this one, because they're on a different planet most of the time.

I'd gladly have an electric runabout and a jeep for work if I could afford it. Mind you, I'd still have to use the jeep for weekends because if I was to drive any decent distance for a weekend away there's no way to charge the electric car; what should I do when the battery dies ? Get someone to drive the jeep to tow me home, and risk paying €900 for the privilege ?

royston_vasey

Essien wrote: »

What if a small van is taxed privately? I have a 206 van which is, for some reason, taxed privately.

I think that Gormley is trying to eliminate those that tax commercially but insure privately hence reducing the incidence of tax that they are eligible for. If you are taxing privately then you will be unaffected IMO as you are paying tax at a higher rate.

I think this enforcement is directly related to those who are driving private vehicles that can also be construed to be commerical vehicles - primarily 4x4s - and taking advantage of this by declaring the vehicle to be commercial to pay the lesser tax. It is tax evasion and the people taking advantage of it are well aware that they are evading tax.

For me if an owner is declaring that a vehicle is a commercial vehicle then the owner should also have to produce evidence that they do actually have a company, e.g. VAT number etc.

OhNoYouDidn't

Well done Liam, you completely missed my point.

Everyone in an SME who was using taxing their private vehicle as a work one was at it. They were fully aware they were at it. So now in strained financial times the revenue are clamping down on it and those who were at it have the audacity to claim victimhood.

To give out that this is an anti business agenda is infantile. Its a pay your fcuking tax agenda.

NIMBY whinging hypocrits.

Sleepy

Are people really screaming this loudly about not being able to commit a tax fraud any more?

If the vehicles commercial, it's commercial, not a private vehicle that you can use as you see fit for social usage. If you can't afford a second vehicle and want to use the work van privately, then make the car/van your private vehicle, tax and insure it as such and pay yourself mileage for it's commercial usage out of the company accounts.

You won't find any sympathy from me that less of the tax I'm paying will be paid on your behalf tbh.

bijapos

Yes its stupidity alright. I think there is a difference between those who have a van for work and use it ocassionally for private use, and those who use it privately most of the time. The problem is how do you sort them out? Answer is you can't do it easily. So I think there are two possible solutions.

1. Anyone who is registered as a sole trader or company (not necessarily VAT registered) can have one commercial for each employee to use as they wish, i.e. the system that exists now or

2. Just get rid of tax and place a few cents levy on fuel, it would save all the administration costs on motor tax and have the benefit that everyone would be paying.


Having said that the thread title is out of the Joe Duffy school of hysteria :rolleyes:, but this is the bit that annoys me from the quoted article

If the gardaí subsequently catch them behind the wheel on a non-work related outing they will have to pay on average more than €1,200 motor tax rather than the reduced commercial rate of under €300.

Conor Faughan od the AA used this stat this morning too and its stretching it a lot to think that the average tax on a commercial should be €1200+. For this to happen commercials would have to have an engine of 2.8l or more which very few have. Some 4x4 Jeeps do, but virtually all Trafic, Hiace, Transit and Master class vans are well under this. A lot of scaremongering here by the AA, nothing new on their part though.

P. Breathnach

My mind had been playing with the juxtaposition of two threads: this one and the discussion of people needing incentives to be ethical. And this I find that the person who posed the question on ethical behaviour is posting on this question without, as I see it, giving a great deal of thought to the possibility that many people feel incentivised to behave unethically in relation to motor tax.

I am reasonably sure that some people tax vehicles as being for business use when they are truly serving as the family car. They do it because they can save money, and they have no incentive to do what I see as the right thing. I have no idea whether the number of people doing that should be counted in hundreds, in thousands, or in tens of thousands. Not that the number who do it affects the principle, but the effect on the state's coffers should be linked to the cost and effort involved in applying the law.

I am a compliant taxpayer, and I am cheated by people who evade their taxes. I am pleased to see their opportunities reduced.

Yes, I have some sympathy for people who use business vehicles occasionally for personal life, but I see a real difficulty in accommodating that while also trying to crack down on people who have been taking the piss.

changes

Do the greens have no concept of financial hardship. They seem to live is a pleasant utopia where nobody has any money worries and are so well paid that €900 means nothing to them.

Someone needs to knock on his door and let him know that thousands of business people are near the breadline right now.

liammur

I'm not sure that is too unfair.

However, someone driving a 07 and 08 diesel cars pay differing amounts of car tax and this is unfair. I pay €1500 car tax which is ridiculous.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

sellerbarry

Would this apply to those (poor) taxi men too?;)

ronaneire

Seen a thread about this yesterday where some posters had been asked this already.
In Gods name, what next from these shower of useless nothings.
They seem to think they can put taxes or levies on anything that seems fit.
Next you will be taxed for riding a bike, as the way things are going we will all be on them soon enough if they think they can have their way.

RichardAnd

Ahh yes, the Greens strike again. If this is brought in, I don't see how would be enforced realistically.

royston_vasey

+1

Cookie_Monster

Commercial tax is for commercials. If you are going to use vehicles for private purposes then you can't tax it priavtly. Its just a tightening of the rules that are there and rightly so. People have been taking the piss with this for years

oppenheimer1

mickeyk wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-now-facing-euro900-rise-in-motor-tax-2309056.html

It seems there is no end to the new levies and taxes they can dream up, I see no problem with a small business owner using the company van to drop their child to school or collect them etc, but Mr. Gormley seems to think they should be levied 900 euro for the priviledge. I doubt this will go through but I will be writing to my local three TD's later today to state my strong opposition to such a move. I don't drive a commercial vehicle but I know several people who use one for approx 90% business and probably 10% personal, and such a huge new tax would be completely unfair IMO.

Well is it fair that business owners essentially put their personal vehicles in the company name in order to avoid the tax?

And anyway the proposed change is a tax on the individual, not the business.

Nijmegen

There's a thread elsewhere, but the point is, if you're driving a commercial vehicle privately more than 'some' of the time, it's private use and should be taxed as such.

This is the same as claiming VAT back on household purchases, like a laptop for your kid.

Introduce a middle of the road bracket, perhaps.

average_runner

I have seen people in businesses that bought a new car saying its for commercial use and yet the only person that drives it is the wife for her leisure


That aint fair either, if its a commerical car/van use it for business only

Cookie_Monster

Essien wrote: »

What if a small van is taxed privately? I have a 206 van which is, for some reason, taxed privately.

no issue with that. Its just if you are using it for private purposes and its taxed commercially that they are clamping down on

liammur

Well done Gormley.
It is time to look at the tax rates of these larger commercial vehicles in particular, they've been getting away for quite some time.

ronaneire

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Commercial tax is for commercials. If you are going to use vehicles for private purposes then you can't tax it priavtly. Its just a tightening of the rules that are there and rightly so. People have been taking the piss with this for years

Seems the Government also have been taking the piss for years as well.
One law for one and not for another!

Welease

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well is it fair that business owners essentially put their personal vehicles in the company name in order to avoid the tax?

And anyway the proposed change is a tax on the individual, not the business.

It's not always that simple, I and other were forced to classify our vehicles as commercial by the DOE despite them being aware they were not for commercial use..

Tora Bora

Ah, yes! The green dogooders again.

1. Will this apply to the biggest Hi-Ace owning sector of the population:cool:
2. Any new tax being dreamed up to levy on ministers turning up at funerals? Government business :P
3. So what happens to agricultural tractors:D:D Taxed as agri tractors because that is what they are. But, many and many a farmer living long way from anywhere, takes his little Massey Ferguson to town 2 days a week, to do a bit of shopping and meet some people. He is already housebound due to stricter drink driving regs. Cannot get to the pub on Sunday night for 1. Now cannot get to the post office 3 villages away, to collect his OAP, because the post office in the two villages nearest to him have been closed down and now he can expect the Emergency Response Unit, backed up by the Garda helicopter to de deployed to intercept this road tax avoiding dangerous criminal:eek:

Wouldn't mind but these fckers were not even elected to government, but brought in by bbbbumbling BBBBertie, tttoooo prop up the soldiers of destiny in government.

Scofflaw

Threads merged.

moderately,
Scofflaw

mikemac

People have been taking the piss for years.
Buying a 4x4, calling it a commercial and the wife drives it to the shops and out and about, that is all it's used for.

Just enforcing what's already there.

Maybe a bit of leeway can be given but if you want to tax your vehicle as commercial you better be able to prove what it's used for.

jmayo

Slaygal wrote: »

It's one of the most ridiculous things I heard coming from this incompetent excuse for a government and that is truly saying something. :mad:

My other half is a delivery driver so when he's finished his drops for the day according to this stupid idea he would have to drive back to the base in Wicklow to leave the van there and drive his own car home again. I'm so angry with Gormless John, I can't even spell properly.

The amount of people I know who have commerical vehicles, usually 4x4s and the odd Transit, who primarily use their vehicles for work purposes but sometimes use them for private use.
Are these people now not meant to pick up the other half on the way home or not do some shopping on the way home.
Would the minister rather they drove back to base or home and then drove out in a family car ?
I can see how that would be great for the environment. :rolleyes:

What happens when driver gets commerical vehicle and doesn't have his won car.
Should they leave the van/jeep sitting at home, but suffer our appaling public transport when they want to go do the weekly shopping ?

This proposed law is unenforcable like a lot more of them.

Tora Bora wrote: »

Ah, yes! The green dogooders again.

1. Will this apply to the biggest Hi-Ace owning sector of the population:cool:
2. Any new tax being dreamed up to levy on ministers turning up at funerals? Government business :P
3. So what happens to agricultural tractors:D:D Taxed as agri tractors because that is what they are. But, many and many a farmer living long way from anywhere, takes his little Massey Ferguson to town 2 days a week, to do a bit of shopping and meet some people. He is already housebound due to stricter drink driving regs. Cannot get to the pub on Sunday night for 1. Now cannot get to the post office 3 villages away, to collect his OAP, because the post office in the two villages nearest to him have been closed down and now he can expect the Emergency Response Unit, backed up by the Garda helicopter to de deployed to intercept this road tax avoiding dangerous criminal:eek:

Wouldn't mind but these fckers were not even elected to government, but brought in by bbbbumbling BBBBertie, tttoooo prop up the soldiers of destiny in government.

FFS Tora, didn't you know the farmer is meant to use public transport :rolleyes:

I do know how I would like to introduce john gormless to a Massey.

Macha

Statement just released by Dept of Env stating that the only change taking place is that on the relevant form, RF 111A, it now requires an applicant who is applying for a vehicle to be taxed at the goods rate to provide a Revenue registration identity number. That is all.

Looks like some of today's newspaper stories should be filed under fiction.

liammur

Pay the tax on the size of the engine/CO2 regardless whether it is for commercial purposes or not.

Scofflaw

feelingstressed wrote: »

People have been taking the piss for years.
Buying a 4x4, calling it a commercial and the wife drives it to the shops and out and about, that is all it's used for.

Just enforcing what's already there.

Maybe a bit of leeway can be given but if you want to tax your vehicle as commercial you better be able to prove what it's used for.

I can't imagine this being the subject of some kind of either special attention or specially rigorous enforcement, any more than the daughter's laptop currently is (or "business flights"). It will likely be on the usual basis that people obviously taking the piss will be caught and have to pay appropriate tax, while everybody else becomes more cautious about doing it.

I suspect that we'll see a bit of a rush of ex-commercial vehicles in the second-hand marketplace.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Macha

liammur wrote: »

Pay the tax on the size of the engine/CO2 regardless whether it is for commercial purposes or not.

Can you imagine the din of complaints if that were to happen?

liammur

taconnol wrote: »

Can you imagine the din of complaints if that were to happen?

We'd have to turn joe duffy off for a few weeks!

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Cookie_Monster

oh and

Gormley to close every SME in the country.

Ridiculous Sensationalist title is ridiculous and sensationalist


Can it be changed?

MrDarcy

mickeyk wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-now-facing-euro900-rise-in-motor-tax-2309056.html

It seems there is no end to the new levies and taxes they can dream up, I see no problem with a small business owner using the company van to drop their child to school or collect them etc, but Mr. Gormley seems to think they should be levied 900 euro for the priviledge. I doubt this will go through but I will be writing to my local three TD's later today to state my strong opposition to such a move. I don't drive a commercial vehicle but I know several people who use one for approx 90% business and probably 10% personal, and such a huge new tax would be completely unfair IMO.

+1 and I'll be writing a strongly worded letter to that baboon headed asshole Gormley and I'll be telling him I won't be signing any declaration about private use of a commercial vehicle and if the tax offce will not let me tax my vehicle on that basis, I'll ask for that decision in writing and I'll then proceed to drive around in an untaxed vehicle and I'll take my chances in court. I'd have no beef using this stupidity as a basis for an appeal in court. This fannying around doesn't sound constitutional, it sounds like unacceptable and outrageous government interference in a persons property rights...

The notion that you can't drop your kids to school in a work van, without incurring a 900 Euro tax, it sounds like something you'd see in Blazing Saddles.