Gormley to close every SME in the country (motor tax)

Poly · 24-08-2010 07:01AM #1

More red tape and expense for small business.

Looks like this is the final push from Gormley to close every SME in the country.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/govt-imposing-900-tax-hike-on-work-vehicles-470512.html

As a small business owner, I genuinely wonder why I bother anymore. It's getting very close to the point where it will not be worth it.

Victor · 24-08-2010 07:17AM

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

murphaph · 24-08-2010 07:28AM

I don't see the issue here. It's not a new tax per-se, just closing a loophole that exists at present that allows non-commercial users to pay a far reduced rate of motor tax on the premise that the vehicle is for commercial use.

If the vehicle is not being used exclusively in a commercial role, then it should be taxed like any other vehicle. Business owners who are legit have nothing to fear here...simple trip to the Guards and job done. Having said that, surely there should also be a penalty if you are subsequently caught cheating, not just a compulsion to then pay normal tax rates.

Poly · 24-08-2010 07:28AM

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

I know the mercedes jeep "commercial" brigade your're talking about and I agree with you on that.

I have two transits, I let one of my lads keep the van at home, because he often starts at 5am. It's the only vehicle he has. I've no problem with him using it for shopping etc.

There is option 3. Wind down the business and pay no more tax to a failed state. Emigrate

dermo88 · 24-08-2010 07:34AM

My contempt for Feel and fail grows yet again as they get their bum buddies in the Green Party to pick up the used condoms. They have failed to provide viable alternatives. I could go into a rant but whats the point? I could advocate illegal acts, but thats a waste of time.

Gormless Gormley, Calamity Coughlan, Heavyweight Harney, Biffo Cowen, Dial-up Dempsey......How on earth did Ireland reach this point.

Would the last one to leave please turn off the lights?

When did I read that last?

1980 something.

I wonder how on earth Ireland ever got its Independence, when it tolerates buffoonery like this.

CarrickMcJoe · 24-08-2010 07:39AM

Gormley has really lost the plot this time. Being self employed I own a van for work and leave my kids (with their schoolbags that weigh nearly 3 stone) to school) . Now this tool says I have to pay €900 euro to do it.
I for one will not pay this tax as I feel all motorists are being screwed by the Greens and I dont believe there is one Garda who will take a prosecution against you as it is too hard to police.:mad::mad:

micfur · 24-08-2010 07:51AM

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

That SBP article does not suggest anywhere that it is a Dempsey plan. Did you link the wrong URL?

Rabidlamb · 24-08-2010 07:58AM

It's alright folks, it's one of these laws that we can choose whether to follow or not.
Like not having a dog licence or copying CD's at home it's only a crime if you're caught.
As the chances of that are one in a million so sleep easy.

This is Ireland, the land of laws with no enforcement.

danbohan · 24-08-2010 08:04AM

Victor wrote: »

Interesting, this story suggests its a Dempsey plan. http://www.sbpost.ie/news/motorists-facing-higher-fuel-bills-from-proposed-new-tax-51241.html

Now, this proposal gives you two options:
1. You do the red tape and get a €1,000 tax break.
2. You don't do the red tape and don't get a €1,000 tax break.

In no case do you have to do both. The flip side is some people who are cheating the tax system will be caught -> less tax for the rest of us to pay.

The reality is that lots of shiney 4x4 vehicles never see building sites (rarer that they are becoming).

what absolute dublin 4 bs , gormley is a sad reflection of this failed state , all that brainless idiot can come up with in an is banning stag hunts and trying to get a few hundred comercial vechicles that might be used in a private capacity on occasion to pay the rip off road tax . its time people in this country took back control from this idiotic goverment

dan_d · 24-08-2010 08:19AM

And what happens to those who still work for companies that provide them with vans (ie construction companies) or commercial vehicles which they use to drive to and from work? Or which the company has no problem with them using as their main vehicle, even though it's a commercial?

I wonder how many guards are cursing the extra work that will be involved in this.And, if the first they heard of this was this morning's news bulletin.

The lunatics really are running the asylum.:mad:

Essien · 24-08-2010 08:26AM

What if a small van is taxed privately? I have a 206 van which is, for some reason, taxed privately.

Slaygal · 24-08-2010 08:32AM

It's one of the most ridiculous things I heard coming from this incompetent excuse for a government and that is truly saying something. :mad:

My other half is a delivery driver so when he's finished his drops for the day according to this stupid idea he would have to drive back to the base in Wicklow to leave the van there and drive his own car home again. I'm so angry with Gormless John, I can't even spell properly.

adru · 24-08-2010 08:44AM

As a newly acquired small van owner (struggling to start new business) I tried to tax van for private & commercial use and was not allowed. Motor tax office insisted it taxed for commerical use only. Yes I also need it for private use, I can not afford two vehicles, but I could of course sell van, and go on the dole............great idea John.............how much private use do you put your state car to.....:mad::mad::mad:

Nijmegen · 24-08-2010 09:08AM

Enie, meanie on which way to think on this one - and I'm a businessman.

On the one hand, yeah, he's trying to screw us for more.

On the other hand, I know more than a few people driving commercial vehicles that aren't, for the tax saving. It's the same story as claiming VAT back on the laptop you buy your daughter for christmas.

I think that if you do use a commercial vehicle as your primary vehicle outside of work, there should be a third tax bracket for this.

dan_d · 24-08-2010 09:08AM

Shooting themselves in the foot when you think about it - they are basically saying that people who drive commercials should have their own private cars aswell, thus increasing the number of cars in the country. Meanwhile they keep telling us that we need to get more cars off the roads and make more use of the non-existent public transport system.

Of all the crazy ideas to come up with as a money saver, it's one of the stupidest I've heard in a long time.

The_Honeybadger · 24-08-2010 09:09AM

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/thousands-now-facing-euro900-rise-in-motor-tax-2309056.html

It seems there is no end to the new levies and taxes they can dream up, I see no problem with a small business owner using the company van to drop their child to school or collect them etc, but Mr. Gormley seems to think they should be levied 900 euro for the priviledge. I doubt this will go through but I will be writing to my local three TD's later today to state my strong opposition to such a move. I don't drive a commercial vehicle but I know several people who use one for approx 90% business and probably 10% personal, and such a huge new tax would be completely unfair IMO.

gandalf · 24-08-2010 09:25AM

To be honest if the majority of the vehicles use is for non work related purposes then I see the logic in this.

However at a time when the country is in the worst recession ever heaping tax like this on the sector that does employ the majority of people and the sector that will help get us out of this recession is short sighted in the extreme.

As for the other point that this tax will encourage more cars to be bought, it seems to go against every thing the Greens stand for. Then again that's no surprise, maybe FF introduced them to their SIMI friends eh

OhNoYouDidn't · 24-08-2010 09:29AM

Same old NIMBYISM.

Same people screaming for public sector cuts and generally bemoaning lack of government action on the public finances are the first to whinge when their little loophole is closed.

They have been talking about closing this for years ffs.

Liam Byrne · 24-08-2010 09:38AM

OhNoYouDidn't wrote: »

Same old NIMBYISM.

Same people screaming for public sector cuts and generally bemoaning lack of government action on the public finances are the first to whinge when their little loophole is closed.

They have been talking about closing this for years ffs.

They were talking about closing the Dáil expenses for years too, but they only half closed it because a complete solution was "unworkable".

Odd how they can't do that properly, but they can close this one completely.

I certainly agree that anyone using their commercial vehicle as much as they would an ordinary car should not have a full loophole.

However common sense should prevail; people get hit for a benefit in kind tax for company cars, and there should be an allowance for a certain amount of personal use of a commercial vehicle, say 5% or 10%.....it makes sense.

Glibly suggesting that - in a recession where many people are barely getting by - people should just go out and buy a car - is crazy.

Remember also that those people are already almost twice as much in tolls, etc, even if they are doing a run to the school or the shop.

Whatever planet the greens are trying to save, it's not this one, because they're on a different planet most of the time.

I'd gladly have an electric runabout and a jeep for work if I could afford it. Mind you, I'd still have to use the jeep for weekends because if I was to drive any decent distance for a weekend away there's no way to charge the electric car; what should I do when the battery dies ? Get someone to drive the jeep to tow me home, and risk paying €900 for the privilege ?

royston_vasey · 24-08-2010 09:58AM

Essien wrote: »

What if a small van is taxed privately? I have a 206 van which is, for some reason, taxed privately.

I think that Gormley is trying to eliminate those that tax commercially but insure privately hence reducing the incidence of tax that they are eligible for. If you are taxing privately then you will be unaffected IMO as you are paying tax at a higher rate.

I think this enforcement is directly related to those who are driving private vehicles that can also be construed to be commerical vehicles - primarily 4x4s - and taking advantage of this by declaring the vehicle to be commercial to pay the lesser tax. It is tax evasion and the people taking advantage of it are well aware that they are evading tax.

For me if an owner is declaring that a vehicle is a commercial vehicle then the owner should also have to produce evidence that they do actually have a company, e.g. VAT number etc.

OhNoYouDidn't · 24-08-2010 10:01AM

Well done Liam, you completely missed my point.

Everyone in an SME who was using taxing their private vehicle as a work one was at it. They were fully aware they were at it. So now in strained financial times the revenue are clamping down on it and those who were at it have the audacity to claim victimhood.

To give out that this is an anti business agenda is infantile. Its a pay your fcuking tax agenda.

NIMBY whinging hypocrits.

Sleepy · 24-08-2010 10:08AM

Are people really screaming this loudly about not being able to commit a tax fraud any more?

If the vehicles commercial, it's commercial, not a private vehicle that you can use as you see fit for social usage. If you can't afford a second vehicle and want to use the work van privately, then make the car/van your private vehicle, tax and insure it as such and pay yourself mileage for it's commercial usage out of the company accounts.

You won't find any sympathy from me that less of the tax I'm paying will be paid on your behalf tbh.

bijapos · 24-08-2010 10:09AM

Yes its stupidity alright. I think there is a difference between those who have a van for work and use it ocassionally for private use, and those who use it privately most of the time. The problem is how do you sort them out? Answer is you can't do it easily. So I think there are two possible solutions.

1. Anyone who is registered as a sole trader or company (not necessarily VAT registered) can have one commercial for each employee to use as they wish, i.e. the system that exists now or

2. Just get rid of tax and place a few cents levy on fuel, it would save all the administration costs on motor tax and have the benefit that everyone would be paying.

Having said that the thread title is out of the Joe Duffy school of hysteria :rolleyes:, but this is the bit that annoys me from the quoted article

If the gardaí subsequently catch them behind the wheel on a non-work related outing they will have to pay on average more than €1,200 motor tax rather than the reduced commercial rate of under €300.

Conor Faughan od the AA used this stat this morning too and its stretching it a lot to think that the average tax on a commercial should be €1200+. For this to happen commercials would have to have an engine of 2.8l or more which very few have. Some 4x4 Jeeps do, but virtually all Trafic, Hiace, Transit and Master class vans are well under this. A lot of scaremongering here by the AA, nothing new on their part though.

P. Breathnach · 24-08-2010 10:09AM

My mind had been playing with the juxtaposition of two threads: this one and the discussion of people needing incentives to be ethical. And this I find that the person who posed the question on ethical behaviour is posting on this question without, as I see it, giving a great deal of thought to the possibility that many people feel incentivised to behave unethically in relation to motor tax.

I am reasonably sure that some people tax vehicles as being for business use when they are truly serving as the family car. They do it because they can save money, and they have no incentive to do what I see as the right thing. I have no idea whether the number of people doing that should be counted in hundreds, in thousands, or in tens of thousands. Not that the number who do it affects the principle, but the effect on the state's coffers should be linked to the cost and effort involved in applying the law.

I am a compliant taxpayer, and I am cheated by people who evade their taxes. I am pleased to see their opportunities reduced.

Yes, I have some sympathy for people who use business vehicles occasionally for personal life, but I see a real difficulty in accommodating that while also trying to crack down on people who have been taking the piss.

changes · 24-08-2010 10:32AM

Do the greens have no concept of financial hardship. They seem to live is a pleasant utopia where nobody has any money worries and are so well paid that €900 means nothing to them.

Someone needs to knock on his door and let him know that thousands of business people are near the breadline right now.

liammur · 24-08-2010 10:33AM

I'm not sure that is too unfair.

However, someone driving a 07 and 08 diesel cars pay differing amounts of car tax and this is unfair. I pay €1500 car tax which is ridiculous.

Permabear · 24-08-2010 10:44AM

This post has been deleted.

sellerbarry · 24-08-2010 10:49AM

Would this apply to those (poor) taxi men too?;)

ronaneire · 24-08-2010 10:54AM

Seen a thread about this yesterday where some posters had been asked this already.
In Gods name, what next from these shower of useless nothings.
They seem to think they can put taxes or levies on anything that seems fit.
Next you will be taxed for riding a bike, as the way things are going we will all be on them soon enough if they think they can have their way.

RichardAnd · 24-08-2010 11:10AM

Ahh yes, the Greens strike again. If this is brought in, I don't see how would be enforced realistically.

royston_vasey · 24-08-2010 11:10AM

+1

Gormley to close every SME in the country (motor tax)

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