Aerial Problem with DTT Picnic Sagem

Badgermonkey

Hi all,

Bought a cheap Sagem sky picnic box but it would not pick up any signal using my aerial in Pic 1. Tried it over in a mates house Pic 2 and all Saorview channels came in.

Can anyone recommend what type of aerial I need, i'm near Thomastown, Co. Kilkenny and analogue gives me decent rte1, just ok rte2, poor tv3 and tg4. Also what should I be paying for it, where's good to buy 9presumably online) and what price on avg for installation?

thanks in advance.Pic1.jpg

Pic2.jpg

fat-tony

Pic 2 is a photo of an MMDS antenna, so should not be picking up DTT signals on UHF. Any chance you reversed the captions on the photos? The UHF antenna in Pic 1 is the most appropriate of the three antennas for reception.

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Hi all,

Bought a cheap Sagem sky picnic box but it would not pick up any signal using my aerial in Pic 1. Tried it over in a mates house Pic 2 and all Saorview channels came in.

Can anyone recommend what type of aerial I need, i'm near Thomastown, Co. Kilkenny and analogue gives me decent rte1, just ok rte2, poor tv3 and tg4. Also what should I be paying for it, where's good to buy 9presumably online) and what price on avg for installation?

thanks in advance.Pic1.jpg

Pic2.jpg

watty

There are two aerials in that pic1. One is OK for DTT/UHF Analogue and the other larger one is for VHF RTE1 & RTE2.

The pic2 is an MMDS dish. Nothing to do with free Analogue TV or Digital TV. Only for UPC's 2.6GHz Pay TV service. I don't know how you got Saorview. You may have been receiving UPC channels as the MMDS aerial down converts to BandIII or Hyperband usually. Not all channels are encrypted. Ex Chorus areas use DTT like Saorview, ex NTL areas use DVB-c.

The Picnic will need replaced soon. No-one other than the curious should have bought Picnics as they don't meet Saorview spec. Part of the time after launch it will not receive RTE2. It may not receive sound later. By late 2011 the Picnic may not give pictures on RTE or TG4.

The service is not live yet. There can be days with no transmission.

Soft launch is on 31st Oct 2010 and full public launch of the DTT (Saorview) is likely mid 2011. See http://www.techtir.ie/saortv

I presume your signal would be from Mt. Leinster. Today 23rd August it was not transmitting DTT (Digit Television / Saorview)

Badgermonkey

Thanks guys, pics are definitely captioned correctly. I tested the box on Sat 21st August and my aerial (Pic 1) was showing a signal strength & quality of just 2% each and no channels were found.

I then hooked it up to the aerial in mates house (Pic 2) and RTE 1, 2, RTE NL Test Card, RTE NEWS channel and Digital Aertel were all available. This house never had a UPC/Chorus connection as cable wasn't available this far out of Kilkenny city. Seems very odd, as you guys seem to believe aerial in pic 2 should not be receiving DTT. Perhaps he has an attic aerial he's not aware of?

I thought as the picnic decoded mpeg4 & dvb-t signal it was compatible?
Any ideas why my aerial in Pic 1 is coming up blank with the picnic?

Here's a shot of picnic display when plugged in at my place. Signal strength 2% is out of shot.

fat-tony

Definitely something fundamentally wrong here! Are you saying that you connected the Picnic box directly via coax cable to the antenna in pic 2? The MMDS antenna needs a power source for the downconvertor - usually this is the Chorus/UPC box. The box then decrypts as necessary and passes the signal to the TV.

You referred to "cable" not being available outside Kilkenny. MMDS is a transmitted signal, not cable. It's available all over the country where cable is not an option. It still needs a set-top-box to power the antenna and decode the signals. Pic 2 is a photo of an MMDS receiving antenna - not suitable for DTT!

Your UHF antenna (not the VHF antenna with the vertical elements) should be used for reception of DTT signals. Are your two aerials combined somewhere? You say that analogue RTE 1 and 2 are just ok but TV3 and TG4 are poor. Is there a chance that your cabling is faulty - corroded connections or water in the downleads? With a digital signal it's really all or nothing. If you signal/quality levels are below a certain threshold, then you will get nothing. Above that threshold the picture will be perfect, with no visible increase in quality as the signal strength increases - just a reduction in error rate.

edit - I see from your photo that you have a combiner (or masthead amp) on your setup. You should definitely check your connections to ensure that you don't have a corrosion problem or a bad connection somewhere.

Alternatively - if you are receiving from Mt. Leinster on CH45, then you could be suffering from co-channel interference from DTT in Wales - see other threads on this. Why your mate's location doesn't have this problem and works with an MMDS antenna is another story!

watty

The "mates" house must have an attic aerial. I wonder how far from Mullaghanish?

Certainly I believe that Mt Leinster Digital wasn't even on air today.

fat-tony

watty wrote: »

The "mates" house must have an attic aerial. I wonder how far from Mullaghanish?

There's a reference to Thomastown, Co. Kilkenny, so I'm assuming Mt. Leinster, perhaps?

watty

Badgermonkey wrote: »

T

I thought as the picnic decoded mpeg4 & dvb-t signal it was compatible?

The Picnic is a very basic DVB-t with basic MPEG4. It's not remotely the RTE/Nordig spec. It doesn't do AAC sound. (so you may lose sound altogether). It doesn't do HD (on HDMI), or HD with downsampling for SCART. So no video during RTE2 Sport and no video probably all of the time by Mid to late 2011 as RTE and TG4 switch full time HD (HD TV not needed, but you need a Saorview spec HD receiver). There is not space for SD simulcast like UK, nor does it make any sense since the published spec a year ago requires minimum HD downsample to SCART, AAC stereo and HD to HDMI as well as MPEG4.

watty

fat-tony wrote: »

There's a reference to Thomastown, Co. Kilkenny, so I'm assuming Mt. Leinster, perhaps?

I'd have thought so.

Badgermonkey

Thanks lads. Faulty cabling could be a real possibility as it's been up there a long time, will check it out as my Freesat HD picture is so great that I now find my analogue stations pretty difficult to watch - looking forward to October launch.

lawhec

Badgermonkey wrote: »

Here's a shot of picnic display when plugged in at my place. Signal strength 2% is out of shot.

The 2% signal values, along with the BER and C/N values in the photo are the "zero" vales of the Picnic STB when it cannot find any signal on such a frequency.

If the cable has been up there some time, water ingress may have got in. This normally will affect UHF more than VHF, so TV3 & TG4 will look worse than RTÉ1 or RTÉ2. Also check to see that none of the braiding of the coax cable at the plug is touching the centre wire - if it does it will badly affect analogue reception and almost always kill DTT reception.

mt leinster was on air most if not all of today.
The reported outage in the presely thread must have been so brief because I didn't notice it.

(note I only know if it's off or on by whether I can get anything on ch45 from preseli-today,80% signal 0 quality meaning the usual mangle of preseli vs mt leinster nothingness)

paud2010

Hi....About 6 weeks ago I was receiving DTT on my Samsung Lcd which has MPEG2 i.e. I got sound but no picture but it was there. The thing is the only aerial I have is an MMDS/chorus aerial???????.
Hence I purchased a Ferguson Ariva plugged it into a UHF new aerial and nothing. I re-checked the MMDS aerial and nothing also.
I presume the signal is either turned off or power is reduced.
My MMDS aerial is pointing at Cnoc an Oir near ballybunion, kerry, I am approx. 6 miles away.
Hence I must have been picking up the Maghera signal which is in a similar direction, is this possible?, mullaghanish is the opposite direction totally.
Does anyone know when this Maghera signal will revert to full power so that I can try again?

October 1 is the likely date ie at the official start of saorview.

If all the main tx's including maghera aren't working by then,you'd wonder whats been going on for the last two years of tests!

Getting signal hooked up to the mmds dish was most likely flukey.
You need a proper grouped aerial for maghera.

watty

October 31st 2010 is "soft start"
"Mid 2011" (exact date not decided) is Public Launch.

winston_1

watty wrote: »

The Picnic is a very basic DVB-t with basic MPEG4. It's not remotely the RTE/Nordig spec. It doesn't do AAC sound. (so you may lose sound altogether). It doesn't do HD (on HDMI), or HD with downsampling for SCART. So no video during RTE2 Sport and no video probably all of the time by Mid to late 2011 as RTE and TG4 switch full time HD (HD TV not needed, but you need a Saorview spec HD receiver). There is not space for SD simulcast like UK, nor does it make any sense since the published spec a year ago requires minimum HD downsample to SCART, AAC stereo and HD to HDMI as well as MPEG4.

The Picnic box does do AAC sound. According to the spec Dolby digital AC3, MPEG4 AAC level 2, and MPEG 4 AAC level 4.
I admit it doesn't do HD however.

For the time being the Picnic box is one of the best available for Irish DTT. It's about the only one with MHEG and it's price is very reasonable as a stopgap until the Saorview spec receivers are available.

STB

winston_1 wrote: »

The Picnic box does do AAC sound. According to the spec Dolby digital AC3, MPEG4 AAC level 2, and MPEG 4 AAC level 4.
I admit it doesn't do HD however.

For the time being the Picnic box is one of the best available for Irish DTT. It's about the only one with MHEG and it's price is very reasonable as a stopgap until the Saorview spec receivers are available.

For once Winston I have to slightly disagree with you.

The Picnic despite being cheap will be useless to people in 6-8 months time and will confuse people when they cant receive RTE2.

There is an MHEG5 box available for sale which is more than likely one of the offical receivers. It €99 (not cheap - but at least probably supported with OTA in the future).

Sam Russell

STB wrote: »

The Picnic despite being cheap will be useless to people in 6-8 months time and will confuse people when they cant receive RTE2.

No, not useless. It will provide DAB stations at a very low cost, if nothing else. I also think that it will provide TV3 reception for a very long time, as I doubt they will be going HD for some time.

Macy0161

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, not useless. It will provide DAB stations at a very low cost, if nothing else. I also think that it will provide TV3 reception for a very long time, as I doubt they will be going HD for some time.

Also RTE Kids, which I assume won't be HD medium term. Well my plan anyway is to move it into the play room if, or when, other channels become dodgy.

watty

Whatever,

No-one should be recommending the Picnic or buying it.

I may get a €20 USB DTT stick for DAB radio. I'd not use a Picnic.

glineli

watty wrote: »

Whatever,

No-one should be recommending the Picnic or buying it.

I may get a €20 USB DTT stick for DAB radio. I'd not use a Picnic.

Thanks Watty

Until we get a lit of the offical receivers, the picnic will do me. Any idea when the offical list will be launched?

STB, i like the look of that walker box, would i be taking a risk picking that up now or are you sure it will be offical?

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

Whatever,

No-one should be recommending the Picnic or buying it.

Well I wouldn't recommend buying one at this stage with a month or so to wait for officially badged, but for 15 quid people have got good use out of them for the trials and they'll still have some use for a while to come.

Sam Russell

Macy0161 wrote: »

Well I wouldn't recommend buying one at this stage with a month or so to wait for officially badged, but for 15 quid people have got good use out of them for the trials and they'll still have some use for a while to come.

They are a few bricks short of a load, but they are not a total waste. I have had one for a while, and would see it doing useful work until the 2nd mux starts up and we have more HD. Even then, it will be good for DAB radio channels. Unfortunately, there will be no software upgrade to solve the various bugs in the unit.

I intend to get a combined Freesat HD and Freeview HD iDTV when it looks like a good time to buy one - maybe after Christmas. The Pana G20 is ahead at the moment, but we will see whether Sony bring out one.

Onthe3rdDay

watty wrote: »

Whatever,

No-one should be recommending the Picnic or buying it.

I may get a €20 USB DTT stick for DAB radio. I'd not use a Picnic.

The Picnic box has been an excellent stop gap measure box. If you're getting one for 20 euro. Good RTE reception for 6 to 8 months is better than a very unwatchable analogue signal and a lot cheaper than paying Sky a monthly subscription.

watty

I have not paid subscription for several years to Sky. I have fitted aerial and amp to ensure good Analogue reception till a DTT service launches.

As part of my job I tested Neotion "CAM" adaptor and several set-boxes. They were all poor. I also had a €2,500 PCI card for PC and expensive software and transmitters to generate my own MPEG 4 SD and HD transmissions. I re-encoded various DVD and satellite recordings and re-multiplexed test files given me by DTT and Cable equipment vendors. The Neotion and existing DTT set boxes rubbish solutions for Nordig 2.0 or RTE.

I decided it was a waste of money (and said so here) to buy anything that didn't match a final spec. and probably foolish to buy before stuff had certification. I did also have a DTT PCI, which failed. I have not bothered replacing it yet.

There is not even a reliable service yet as it is only engineering. So there is absolutely no need for anyone to rush out and buy anything specially before even 2011, much less November 2010.

People google and find these pages. It's irresponsible to recommend unsuitable equipment to the public. This is not a private forum.

IMO No-one that can get current DTT TESTS is unable to get a decent analogue signal by getting a decent aerial installed.

The DTT has been erratic due to RTE changing stuff and has no TV3 (no great loss I suppose yet).

There is no such thing as a good stop gap measure and the Neotion "CAM" card and Picnic box and similar would not be it.

From RTE NL site

Digital Roll Out_________________

RTÉNL is undertaking DTT technical test transmissions in a number of areas. This is being done to verify the engineering integrity of the systems and to confirm coverage.

These test transmissions will operate for varying durations and are subject to regular variations and prolonged interruptions. The test transmissions will cease in the majority of areas once testing is complete.

Permanent transmissions will not commence until the service is formally launched by the broadcasters.

Under no circumstances should the test transmissions be considered an operational service.


When will I get it?______________________

DTT is not available at the moment and the actual launch date or dates is a matter for RTÉ, in respect of the public service multiplex, and the BCI, in respect of the three commercial multiplexes.


RTÉNL is undertaking engineering work to prepare the network for the delivery of DTT to the homes of Ireland. The roll-out of the infrastructure necessary to provide this service has started and will continue over the next four years.

RTÉNL anticipates that DTT services will be launched to the viewing public in the next year or so but, as previously mentioned, the actual launch date or dates is a matter for RTÉ, in respect of the public service multiplex, and the BCI, in respect of the three commercial multiplexes.


RTÉNL is currently undertaking live tests from a number of sites but these are subject to interruption from time-to-time and will cease once testing is complete and cannot be considered to be a “live” service.

From http://rtenl.ie/dtt.htm

It's not recommended (and I have said this many times over last 5 years) that anyone buy anything * ESPECIALLY * for Irish DTT / Saorview at this stage. Not even the Walker box, which may be genuinely approved, till there is a real Saorview logo on the box or TV.

Assume if you have to buy a TV today (or before there are ones with a Saorview logo) that it may need a Saorview set-box. If you absolutely have to buy a TV now, these are the minimum specs http://rtenl.ie/downloads/RTE-FTA-DTT-Receiver-Spec.pdf. Basically the mandatory parts of Nordig 2.0, some optional bits are mandatory and MHEG5.

lucernarian

If people want to take a risk with the Picnic boxes, then fair dues to them if it works. I think it's good that sites like these can discuss radio/TV experimenting for what it is. I would look poorly on anyone suggesting that the Sagem picnic box is perfect for DTT here, but people will make their own decision at the end of the day. I haven't yet seen any declarations that the picnic boxes will always work for Saorview.

So if someone insists on having a box that works today (whatever about 2 months or even 2 year's time), the sagem would fit that bill. I'm personally waiting until a saorview receiver can reach <€50 myself but others may want to fiddle with new technology, much like pre-802.11n wireless networks were marketed and sold before the standard was finalised. Basically, caveat emptor:)

As for this thread, it is an incorrect assertion to claim that the Picnic boxes will "need" replacing. That is entirely at the leisure of RTENL and I assume the BAI as to what MPEG4 profiles and resolution they use etc. I don't doubt that there are sound reasons as to why RTE may well drop SD broadcasting on the same mux, but I don't remember them making an announcement to that effect. I'd love to see how a UPC antenna/downconverter managed to pick up DTT so well...

winston_1, it's fine to say that it works currently for Irish DTT but exactly why it's a stopgap should be made abundantly clear. I agree with watty in that there's no such thing as a "good stop gap measure", either it's fully functional or it isn't. A good stop gap would be a Nordig compliant receiver, i.e. fully compatible with saorview.

Can this thread be brought back to finding out why the Picnic won't work for the OP?!

STB

With just the internet at my disposal I sourced an MHEG5 box to RTE spec that also plays AVI/MKV formats and records via PVR for €81 retail (certification will cost another €30,000 though).

With time on my hands I also found the chassis that the Walker is based on but the chipset is not the same as its an MPEG2 DVB-S box.

Anyone care ? Right I'll give box anoraks 2 hours to find both.

watty

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I
As for this thread, it is an incorrect assertion to claim that the Picnic boxes will "need" replacing. That is entirely at the leisure of RTENL and I assume the BAI as to what MPEG4 profiles and resolution they use etc. I don't doubt that there are sound reasons as to why RTE may well drop SD broadcasting on the same mux, but I don't remember them making an announcement to that effect. I'd love to see how a UPC antenna/downconverter managed to pick up DTT so well...

They did, by Implication.
1) At startup with one mux RTE 2 will be HD "lite". There isn't space to simulcast SD RTE2.
2) When 2nd Mux is Running RTE 1 and 2 will transition to HD. Again there is not space to do SD simulcast.

3) Why would they waste encoder costs and bitrate doing simulcast when MINIMUM spec calls for HD downsample to SCART and HD on HDMI?

4) Minimum spec calls for AAC stereo on SD transmission, not just for HD or AAC multichannel. Again likely to save 50% bit rate across all sound (TV & Radio) so TG4 can be HD also. I'm sorry if I mistook the Picnic spec, I didn't think it did all the required AAC modes. So it might make a Radio set with TV screen GUI (a little 5" set?).

watty

STB wrote: »

With just the internet at my disposal I sourced an MHEG5 box to RTE spec that also plays AVI/MKV formats and records via PVR for €81 retail (certification will cost another €30,000 though).

With time on my hands I also found the chassis that the Walker is based on but the chipset is not the same as its an MPEG2 DVB-S box.

Anyone care ? Right I'll give box anoraks 2 hours to find both.

So if we flog 5,000 of them the logo sticker only costs us €6? Has it got one or two tuners?

Have you got an Investor?

Anyhow the "naysayers" that wanted us to use Freeview boxes (since then ironically obsolete with Freeview HD) claimed that the MPEG4 boxes would either not exist or cost €200.

You (STB) have yet again proved this is nonsense.

Once there is a real market there will be no shortage of stuff as it all already exists. If all the well known brands are in the shops by summer 2011, that is actually fine. Then they may be €40 to €60 instead of today's €80 to €90. A decent dual tuner PVR may cost a lot more (A nice Panasonic HD HDD PVR with BD player/recorder is about €1100 today). I'm not fussed any more about a combo box. I was interested in a Combo till 14-07-2010. If you want Freesat, there is no need since then for a Combo unless everything goes pear shaped.

It seems to me they are only "soft launching" at 31st Oct 2010, not just on basis of number of DTT sites, but because they want Saorsat and significant 2nd Mux sites running as the Minister is saying December 2011 latest and RTE NL / RTE is saying no earlier than Q2 2012. Kasat Launches between Nov 2010 and Jan 2011. RTE said RTE Satellite Service, Saorsat from Q2 2011

Even the Tiny Irish market, €30,000 is afforable for Certification for any major TV or box maker (sounds a bit high though). I think you can assume all the Freeview HD sets will have it as the differences from D-Book (UK HD DTT) are not costing royalty. The UK TVs need MHEG5, MPEG4 and AAC also. Since ALL the UK retailers make more money selling "Freeview HD", and it's backward compatible to Freeview, I think in 6 months there will be no TVs under 22" in UK that are not MPEG4 Freeview HD.

12 element

STB wrote: »

With just the internet at my disposal I sourced an MHEG5 box to RTE spec that also plays AVI/MKV formats and records via PVR for €81 retail (certification will cost another €30,000 though).

With time on my hands I also found the chassis that the Walker is based on but the chipset is not the same as its an MPEG2 DVB-S box.

Anyone care ? Right I'll give box anoraks 2 hours to find both.

Where did you get the €30,000 figure from out of curiosity? I'll get googling!

STB

Walker DTT box (built on a Vestel chassis)
Here is the chassis in the Vestel HD 35900 whch is used by Digiturk for their satellite service. The box is where the similarity ends obviously as its a sat box and uses MPEG2 chips as far as I know.

watty

HDTV on MPEG2 sounds unlikely.

STB

Yes I thought that strange, every website says mpeg2, they use phillips encoders still on Digiturk, but the vestel spec that I finally found does say it does h264. I think they have 1 HD MPEG4 station.

Mpeg2 and HD not that strange, even in this day and age - Australia one example. Someone else in Europe also from memory,

STB

STB wrote: »

Yes I thought that strange, every website says mpeg2, they use phillips encoders still on Digiturk, but the vestel spec that I finally found does say it does h264. I think they have 1 HD MPEG4 station.

Mpeg2 and HD not that strange, even in this day and age - Australia one example. Someone else in Europe also from memory,

I have a 10 second recording from Euro1080 in 2004 which used MPEG-2 on Astra 1. The video was encoded at 16.5 Mbps.

watty

Yes, but that was tests. MPEG2 for HD was not used for public launch.

Strange = uncommon. Not impossible