Take your medicine.?.

Podman

phantom_lord wrote: »

What about the Ryan v. Attorney General case? It was dismissed as it was found that there was no evidence that fluoridation was harmful, and instead it was actually beneficial.

Has some new evidence come to light since then?

Calcium Fluoride is good for bones and teeth.
Sodium Fluoride is a poison.
It is Sodium Fluoride in our drinking water and toothpaste.

Graphic video showing advanced chronic Fluoride poisoning

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oX8ppB-wKEQ

Sodium Fluoride is the main ingredient in Rat Poison. In small doses it pacifies people, making them more likely to do as they are told.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd_Mg0xCvcM

phantom_lord

Podman wrote: »

Calcium Fluoride is good for bones and teeth.
Sodium Fluoride is a poison.
It is Sodium Fluoride in our drinking water and toothpaste.

Graphic video showing advanced chronic Fluoride poisoning

Well, the investigation undertaken by the Supreme Court would disagree with you there when we're talking in terms of the levels put into the water supply.

Podman wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is the main ingredient in Rat Poison.

That's a lot more than one part per million is it not?

You're really not going to convince me of anything with youtube videos btw. Court findings from a panel of experts trumps them pretty easily.

Podman

phantom_lord wrote: »

Well, the investigation undertaken by the Supreme Court would disagree with you there when we're talking in terms of the levels put into the water supply.

You indicate that this investigation was made public, do you have any links?

Also, I'd be interested to read the Supreme Court's findings on the beneficial properties of rat poison. Were they published also?

phantom_lord

Podman wrote: »

You indicate that this investigation was made public, do you have any links?

Also, I'd be interested to read the Supreme Court's findings on the beneficial properties of rat poison. Were they published also?

Yeah the case number is: [1965] 294 1 I.R

If you don't have access to Justis or something similar this is a link I found with a synopsis:

http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1965/1.html

Podman wrote: »

Also, I'd be interested to read the Supreme Court's findings on the beneficial properties of rat poison. Were they published also?

Well considering it probably has close to a million times the concentration compared to drinking water I doubt they thought it was too relevant.

phantom_lord

Why did the EU court tell the Irish government to stop this, and yet we hear little of it in the MSM?

Andypando wrote: »

I have a memory of the Irish government being in a court in Europe where they were told to stop putting toxins in our drinking water.

If you mean fluoride, I can't find anything about that. Know any details?

I did come across an EU directive (98/83/EC) that sets standards for drinking water, and the limit for fluoride is 50% higher than the level the Irish Gov puts in the water supply, so as far as the EU is concerned, it's more than fine.

alastair

Podman wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is the main ingredient in Rat Poison. In small doses it pacifies people, making them more likely to do as they are told.[/YOUTUBE]

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

There are many types of rat poisons (rodenticides), sodium flouride is just one, and quite an effective one at that.
These days a lot of pest control comapnies use anticoagulants (usually small cubes of bait inside a bait box) that are ingested and cause major internal hemorrhaging.

Sodium flouride is more commonly used in fumigants (sprays), something which isn't exactly safe to do in an office building, although it's a lot more effective, hence the more common use of baits instead.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

There are many types of rat poisons (rodenticides), sodium flouride is just one, and quite an effective one at that.
These days a lot of pest control comapnies use anticoagulants (usually small cubes of bait inside a bait box) that are ingested and cause major internal hemorrhaging.

Sodium flouride is more commonly used in fumigants (sprays), something which isn't exactly safe to do in an office building, although it's a lot more effective, hence the more common use of baits instead.

Lets see a link to rat poison with sodium fluoride listed as an active ingredient (let alone the main active ingredient). Just the one will do nicely.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Lets see a link to rat poison with sodium fluoride listed as an active ingredient (let alone the main active ingredient). Just the one will do nicely.

I'm having difficulty finding ingredient lists for fumigants, a lot of info is out there for anticoagulants as they're more commonly used.

I found one link regarding how Flourides/Fluorines ( Sodium Flouride, Sulfuryl Flouride, Sodium Fluosilicate) are used in pest control, it displys a number of patents and information.

http://www.fluoride-history.de/p-insecticides.htm

It would seem that each pest control company used their own specific mix of chemicals in their fumigants (kind of like a secret sauce), so it's proving hard to find useful info. Maybe I just need to try harder though.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

I'm having difficulty finding ingredient lists for fumigants, a lot of info is out there for anticoagulants as they're more commonly used.

I found one link regarding how Flourides/Fluorines ( Sodium Flouride, Sulfuryl Flouride, Sodium Fluosilicate) are used in pest control, it displys a number of patents and information.

http://www.fluoride-history.de/p-insecticides.htm

It would seem that each pest control company used their own specific mix of chemicals in their fumigants (kind of like a secret sauce), so it's proving hard to find useful info. Maybe I just need to try harder though.

Sodium Fluoride is commonly used in fumigants (for insects), it's just not used as rat poison.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is commonly used in fumigants (for insects), it's just not used as rat poison.

What are you trying to do here?
Turn this into an "I'm right, your'e wrong" discussion?

Fumigants kill indiscriminately, they can be used to kill insects or rodents, not one or the other.
The reason the majority of commonly used rodenticides are anticoagulants is that it's a lot safer to use them.
It's simpler to kill rodents using this method, however if you fumigate a building you're going to be doing the job a hell of a lot faster, the problem being that you can't have people inside that building for quite some time afterwards, hence the popular use of anticoagulants.

It's a toss up between these methods, if your infestation is large and is located in an area that isn't used regularly by people, you could easily fumigate, if the infestation is in say an office, where the infestation will probably be smaller, you're probably going to go with anticoagulants, although you may not solve the problem completely using that method, you will usually kill quite a few rodents.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

Fumigants kill indiscriminately, they can be used to kill insects or rodents, not one or the other.

Sodium Fluoride is used as an insect repellent in wood treatment - it might well kill them in large enough doses, but it's primarily used as a repellent (in fumigant form). It doesn't do a damn thing to rats - and consequently is not used as an active ingredient in rat poison. Insect repellent (unsurprisingly) doesn't really bother rats.

What happens if you dose rats with Sodium Fluoride for two years?
(Survival of rats and mice was not affected by sodium fluoride administration.)

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is used as an insect repellent in wood treatment - it might well kill them in large enough doses, but it's primarily used as a repellent (in fumigant form). It doesn't do a damn thing to rats - and consequently is not used as an active ingredient in rat poison. Insect repellent (unsurprisingly) doesn't really bother rats.

There's quite a marked difference between insect repellent(something you might for instance use on your person in tropical regions) and fumigants.
Flouride is used to create active compounds used in fumigants, which are used to kill insects as well as rodents. There are more than one sinlge type of fumigant, and their uses vary, but they are made to kill things, insects, rats, or other vermin.

Regarding your link, the difference between the levels of flouride present in flouridated water and fumigants is quite marked I would have thought.

Also, there's an interesting quote from the end of the conclusions; "Dosed rats had lesions typical of fluorosis of the teeth and female rats receiving drinking water containing 175 ppm sodium fluoride had increased osteosclerosis of long bones."

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

There's quite a marked difference between insect repellent(something you might for instance use on your person in tropical regions) and fumigants.
Flouride is used to create active compounds used in fumigants, which are used to kill insects as well as rodents. There are more than one sinlge type of fumigant, and their uses vary, but they are made to kill things, insects rats, or other vermin.

Regarding your link, the difference between the levels of flouride present in flouridated water and fumigants is quite marked I would have thought.

Also, there's an interesting quote from the end of the conclusions; "Dosed rats had lesions typical of fluorosis of the teeth and female rats receiving drinking water containing 175 ppm sodium fluoride had increased osteosclerosis of long bones."

Sodium Fluoride is used in structural fumigants - timber is dosed with liquid insect repellent, and the vapour thrown off is lethal only to insects - not to rodents. It's more normally used as a liquid spray or bath for preserving timber from long term insect infestation - and again it doesn't kill rodents.

Regarding the link - fluorosis occurs in humans too - its no secret - but only at levels above those used for water flouridation. The levels the rats were dosed with were very high - and sodium fluoride is a toxin in large doses - but then so is table salt. And again - the rats (and mice) were not killed by longterm exposure to high doses of the compound you claim is used as a rat poison.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is used in structural fumigants - timber is dosed with liquid insect repellent, and the vapour thrown off is lethal only to insects - not to rodents. It's more normally used as a liquid spray or bath for preserving timber from long term insect infestation - and again it doesn't kill rodents.

Regarding the link - fluorosis occurs in humans too - its no secret - but only at levels above those used for water flouridation. The levels the rats were dosed with were very high - and sodium fluoride is a toxin in large doses - but then so is table salt. And again - the rats (and mice) were not killed by longterm exposure to high doses of the compound you claim is used as a rat poison.

Flouride is used in fumigants that are used as rodenticides, usually in the creation of active chemical compounds.
It can be used in all sorts of other things too, I'm not doubting that.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

Flouride is used in fumigants that are used as rodenticides, usually in the creation of active chemical compounds.
It can be used in all sorts of other things too, I'm not doubting that.

Sodium Fluoride is not. So let's stick to the subject under discussion.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Sodium Fluoride is not. So let's stick to the subject under discussion.

I would have thought we were more or less bang on topic.
I'll let the mods decide if we're not, why don't you report me for dragging the thread off topic Alastair?

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

I would have thought we were more or less bang on topic.
I'll let the mods decide if we're not, why don't you report me for dragging the thread off topic Alastair?

No interest in that - but lots of interest in ensuring there's no sneaky replacement of the compound under discussion - sodium fluoride, with something else. I made a clear couple of points - sodium fluoride isn't used as rat poison, and it doesn't subdue/pacify people. If anyone is prepared to provide evidence to the contrary - fire away - but it isn't going to happen.

phantom_lord

what difference does it make if it's used or not? it's in no way comparable.

chlorine is used as a weapon of war, it's also used in swimming pools. no one seems to see any reason to worry about that?

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

No interest in that - but lots of interest in ensuring there's no sneaky replacement of the compound under discussion - sodium fluoride, with something else. I made a clear couple of points - sodium fluoride isn't used as rat poison, and it doesn't subdue/pacify people. If anyone is prepared to provide evidence to the contrary - fire away - but it isn't going to happen.

You were happy to discuss flouride in general when you thought you were going to be seen as being "right".
Funny that.

alastair

phantom_lord wrote: »

what difference does it make if it's used or not? it's in no way comparable.

Give that it's a standard propaganda point with the anti-fluoridation crowd - it's worth highlighting the misinformation.

nullzero

phantom_lord wrote: »

what difference does it make if it's used or not? it's in no way comparable.

chlorine is used as a weapon of war, it's also used in swimming pools. no one seems to see any reason to worry about that?

It's more about concentration levels and applications then the substance itself.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

You were happy to discuss flouride in general when you thought you were going to be seen as being "right".
Funny that.

Nope - I was happy to discuss fluoridation - which only involves sodium fluoride. Not sure how you managed to get confused in that regard.

phantom_lord

nullzero wrote: »

It's more about concentration levels and applications then the substance itself.

yes that's my point. cters can't seem to grasp that.

nullzero

alastair wrote: »

Nope - I was happy to discuss fluoridation - which only involves sodium fluoride. Not sure how you managed to get confused in that regard.

Read your posts, you've been quoting me for a while and responding and I believe water flouridation came up once in refernce to a link you posted, the rest of the discussion was to do with fluoride's use in rodenticides.

You're starting to display signs of narcissism Alastair.
We can all read your posts and see your contradictions with regard to what you've been discussing.

nullzero

phantom_lord wrote: »

yes that's my point. cters can't seem to grasp that.

Not quite, water fluoridation isn't conclusively good or bad, it's a grey area.
It's not "Cters", or "sceptics", people will ask questions when they are valid.
If other people want to feel fluoridation is fine that's their business.

Perhaps the best thing in the long run is to allow people to purchase their own sodium fluoide and add it to their water themselves and save the tax payer footing the bill.
Freedom of choice for all, surely thats not a bad idea.

alastair

nullzero wrote: »

Read your posts, you've been quoting me for a while and responding and I believe water flouridation came up once in refernce to a link you posted, the rest of the discussion was to do with fluoride's use in rodenticides.

You're starting to display signs of narcissism Alastair.
We can all read your posts and see your contradictions with regard to what you've been discussing.

:rolleyes: - to recap:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Podman
It is Sodium Fluoride in our drinking water and toothpaste.
...
Sodium Fluoride is the main ingredient in Rat Poison. In small doses it pacifies people, making them more likely to do as they are told.

No it's not, and no it doesn't.

Lets see a link to rat poison with sodium fluoride listed as an active ingredient (let alone the main active ingredient). Just the one will do nicely.

Sodium Fluoride is commonly used in fumigants (for insects), it's just not used as rat poison.

Sodium Fluoride is used as an insect repellent in wood treatment - it might well kill them in large enough doses, but it's primarily used as a repellent (in fumigant form). It doesn't do a damn thing to rats - and consequently is not used as an active ingredient in rat poison. Insect repellent (unsurprisingly) doesn't really bother rats.

What happens if you dose rats with Sodium Fluoride for two years?
(Survival of rats and mice was not affected by sodium fluoride administration.)

Sodium Fluoride is used in structural fumigants - timber is dosed with liquid insect repellent, and the vapour thrown off is lethal only to insects - not to rodents. It's more normally used as a liquid spray or bath for preserving timber from long term insect infestation - and again it doesn't kill rodents.

Regarding the link - fluorosis occurs in humans too - its no secret - but only at levels above those used for water flouridation. The levels the rats were dosed with were very high - and sodium fluoride is a toxin in large doses - but then so is table salt. And again - the rats (and mice) were not killed by longterm exposure to high doses of the compound you claim is used as a rat poison.

Sodium Fluoride is not. So let's stick to the subject under discussion.

See any contradictions/variation in the compound under discussion there? No - neither do I.

phantom_lord

nullzero wrote: »

Not quite, water fluoridation isn't conclusively good or bad, it's a grey area.

that wasn't the conclusion the supreme court came to. they found at the levels used there are no ill health effects caused.

uprising2

phantom_lord wrote: »

You realise that's their standards right? Not a list of ingredients?

Yes that's their standards and average amount's of each chemical in tap water.
Notice this bit:

These standards are normally based on a life time's consumption and also take into account the intake from food and other sources.
Many of the chemicals listed below are not normally found in drinking water, or only occur in local circumstances.

It says they are normally based and not normally found or only occur in local circumstances, what it doesn't say is that they are definately NOT found in water, and cannot be found in tap water.

So all of the said chemicals would be in water to varying amounts inside the DUBLIN CITY COUNCIL area, which would be most of the greater Dublin area, if they were never found in tap water EVER they wouldn't make it onto the list would they?

alastair

uprising2 wrote: »

Yes that's their standards and average amount's of each chemical in tap water.

The standard isn't the average - it's a safe maximum - there's no suggestion that those figures reflect the actual chemical content of the water (let alone the average).