legal recognition of transgendered people

Eebs

Lilith306 wrote: »

Full ten year one.

That's excellent and great info to have. Congratulations!!!

Annasopra

The Council of Europes commissioner for human rights made some
interesting comments on this as well

http://commissioner.cws.coe.int/tiki-view_blog_post.php?postId=74

Nevyn

It is important tht people take the time to give in put on this other wise conserative groups will be the only voices. I've seen how they rally thier grass roots with leaflets and suggestioned texts so that the submissions are swamped from thier point of view.

A friend had to review and do a synopsis when input was asked on reviewing what consitutes a family underlaw and there were rosary beads and picture of padre pio ect attched and prayers.

L.Jenkins

I could argue religion all day, but I love how they feel they have a hand in everything. 50 years ago, the Government wouldn't do a tap without Church approval. Now I just wish the Church and it's mindless sheep would píss off and let everyone get on with their own thing.

Eebs

Thomas Hammarberg is a brilliant ally. He sent a video to the TENi law conference in the Law Society and he was very eloquent and supportive. Good to know the EU are on track.

L.Jenkins

Atleast the EU Commissioner for Human Rights knows the score and is highly supportive of the issue. He's in the best possible place to help make some change across the board.

Annasopra

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Atleast the EU Commissioner for Human Rights knows the score and is highly supportive of the issue. He's in the best possible place to help make some change across the board.

The European Council and the EU are entirely separate.

L.Jenkins

My bad. Still not up to date on the old EU and EC. Maybe I should be.

Annasopra

Thaedydal wrote: »

It is important tht people take the time to give in put on this other wise conserative groups will be the only voices.

+1000

Reminder about this - a week to go

Annasopra

deadline on Friday

Louisevb

Below is the draft response that I've put together, based on experiences here and in the UK.

The closing date has been extended to the end of September and if anyone has any feed back on this please feel free to PM me
Regards
Louise


Gender Recognition Act submission Louise Hannon September 2010

Response to the establishment of a process for legal recognition of the acquired gender of transsexual persons who have made the transition from one gender to another.

Main overriding criteria
The principle criteria for this legislation should be :
Once a person starts to transition from one gender to the other, (the acquired gender) they should not be in a disadvantaged position in comparison to their life pre-transition or to any other citizen of the state

Definition: To whom the act should apply.

A transgendered person is one who lives permanently in the gender opposite to that in which they were physically born. A transgendered person (frequently referred to as a Transexual) does not mentally identify with their born gender. This definition should also include those who are intersexed i.e. born with the physical sexual characteristics of both sexes. Intersexed people may or may not be transgendered depending on the clinical choices made at birth.

Medical Criteria
● The medical criteria on whether someone should be issued with a GRC is vitally important. Some countries will only grant a GRC /birth certificate in cases where full medical gender reassignment has been completed. This has one major drawback. There are cases where those with GID are diagnosed, but unfortunately for medical / health reasons they cannot go on to have SRS (Sexual reassignment surgery) This exclusion causes extreme mental stress to those involved. The UK act works on the principle of the legal process starting on diagnosis, and this should be applied in Ireland.
Once a person is living fully in the acquired gender (this can be set at two years for example) and have all their records changed to reflect this position i.e. name change by deed poll and PPS records changed then that should suffice, where a medical condition prevents further movement.

Intersexed individuals
● Those who are born intersexed. (The sexual organs are ambiguous and both are present ) These individuals are assigned a gender shortly after birth by surgical intervention, usually on the basis of their parents who choose which gender they would prefer, and it's mostly female. This small group are completely excluded from the UK act and they must be included in Ireland. They have exactly the same problems as those born fully male or female.

Those diagnosed with GID who are married and have no wish to divorce
● Situations arise where a person would like to transition within a loving marriage and where there is no wish to divorce. The UK act makes a person decide between divorce and a Gender Recognition Certificate. This is entirely unfair. If this is allowed to happen here, then a couple would then be forced to use the civil partnership mechanism to carry on in their legal relationship. This is not equivalent to marriage. There will be issues in this situation which will become complicated in regard to property rights inheritance and children's rights.
I believe those in a marriage should be allowed to remain married and still transition with a new birth certificate in the acquired gender.

The establishment of a gender recognition register etc.
● A small specialist section within the appropriate government department, should be made available to oversee the issue of Gender Recognition Certificates provided a person meets the criteria.

● The criteria for issuing a gender recognition certificate should be clear and unambiguous. An appeal process should be set up through the district court where points of law arise with final arbitration decided by the relevant government minister in cases where fraud or other potential inappropriate actions have been identified.

● It would be helpful if a gender recognition document if issued before a full birth certificate in the acquired gender could be made identical to the full birth certificate. Perhaps a shortened version with full version being available on full completion of SRS, similar to a short birth certificate with a full birth certificate being held in reserve. The problem with a gender recognition certificate which is not identical to a birth certificate being used for legal purposes for example to enter college, “outs” anyone straight away as being transgendered.

● There should be no payment of fees for issuing a new birth certificate. Transitioning is an expensive process in itself and even getting a new passport costing €75 is too much for some people who transition on Welfare. The passport is used in many cases for identification purposes for jobseekers benefits etc.

Who should the act apply to?

● The GRA should apply to those over 18 who are of Irish Nationality, but it should also include provision for those under 18 who with advances in medicine are now being treated in Germany the UK and the USA

● The GRA should apply to those who were not born here but who have lived and worked here and who could obtain Irish citizenship, and who wish to transition here.

● All foreign GR Certificates should be accepted here, and those coming to work here who are in transition allowed to fully complete their legal transition, should that be necessary through their own government channels.


Access to information and confidentiality.
● Access to the original birth certificate information and deed poll needs to be controlled and it needs to be made an offense to disclose the previous gender information to anyone except to those bodies on a strict list to include An Garda but only on application to a court. Perhaps the data protection act needs to be amended to include this as one method. If a civil servant or any other person discloses sensitive gender details to a third party they need to be sanctioned legally in such a way as to deter others.
Currently within the state all documents can be changed in an ad hoc way once a name has been changed by deed poll. Changing PPS records or a driving license are relatively straight forward. However, within Social Welfare, Fas and the Revenue all system gender details need to be changed individually as the computer systems do not link to each other. There needs to be a way found to synchronise all government records within one department, even on the grounds of fraud and security.

Acts requiring amendment

● The Employment Equality Act gender definition should be amended to include transgender to copper fasten any ambiguity which currently exists under the grounds of gender.
● Equal Status Act
Discrimination should be outlawed where a transition occurs and the person transitioning is worse off financially, legally, or medically. e.g. Being treated unfavourably by an insurance company post transition.

● Data Protection Act amended to include a ban on disclosure of the born gender to any third party unless as previously discussed above.

Finally
There are a host of other situations that need to be clarified in relation to treatment by government agencies, which should be addressed but perhaps not necessarily within this legislation.
1/ Treatment protocols should be set up by the HSE for A&E when treating those presenting with health issues
2/ Treatment protocols within the Prison Service and an Garda Siochana

Azure_sky

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

I could argue religion all day, but I love how they feel they have a hand in everything. 50 years ago, the Government wouldn't do a tap without Church approval. Now I just wish the Church and it's mindless sheep would píss off and let everyone get on with their own thing.

In thirty years time that generation will be gone. Most people under fifty in this country are atheist/non religious in all but name. Of course the census won't reflect that as the Mammies fill them out, and cite the entire family as Catholic-thus giving the Catholic church more power in society and influence in government. The moral of the story is for people not to cite themselves as Catholic in the census if they don't practise their religion. Sadly people do,usually because they are born into the church or perhaps they just don't think enough.

Azure_sky

Louisevb wrote: »

Acts requiring amendment

● The Employment Equality Act gender definition should be amended to include transgender to copper fasten any ambiguity which currently exists under the grounds of gender.
● Equal Status Act
Discrimination should be outlawed where a transition occurs and the person transitioning is worse off financially, legally, or medically. e.g. Being treated unfavourably by an insurance company post transition.

● Data Protection Act amended to include a ban on disclosure of the born gender to any third party unless as previously discussed above.

Finally

2/ Treatment protocols within the Prison Service and an Garda Siochana

I would personally regard these as the three most urgent issues.

Eebs

TENI have put together some notes on Gender Recognition and making a submission. Deadline for submissions has been extended to the 30th.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/B]

***

A TIME FOR RECOGNITION

Making a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group

For further information or assistance please contact:
TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland
E director@teni.ie
T 01 633 4687

Introduction
The lack of a process whereby individuals who may wish to be legally recognised in a gender other than that which is recorded on their birth certificate has emerged as a significant issue which renders Irish law incompatible with the State’s obligations under European Human Rights norms. TENI welcomes the establishment of the GRAG and a public consultation process to address this issue as a hugely positive step towards the full recognition of transgender people in Ireland

Transgender Equality Network Ireland (TENI) is a national non-profit organisation establishedto represent and work with Ireland’s transgender community, including their families and friends, by providing support and education, and by advocating for equality, rights, and access to services. TENI is working to develop and support transgender services and resources. (TENI) are asking organisations and individuals to make a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group. To assist we have prepared some explanatory notes that highlight some of the main points we believe are important to address.


What is the background to the setting up of this Advisory Group?

On foot of a High Court ruling that Ireland is in breach of the European Convention on Human Rights in not having a process to legally recognise the acquired gender of transsexual persons, the Government has decided to introduce legislation to comply with the judgment.
To progress this decision, the Minister for Social Protection has established an interdepartmental group – the Gender Recognition Advisory Group. This Group is inviting proposal and comments and the terms of reference can be found at http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Legislation/Pages/genderrecognition.aspx
Proposals and comments can be submitted by e-mail to grag@welfare.ie by September 30th 2010.
What is gender recognition?
In order to interact with the law one must identify oneself as either male or female. These are the only two sexes/genders which the law will recognise. Access to legal rights and protections flows from recognition as either male or female. Those rights and protections to which one may be entitled varies depending on the gender as which one is recognised. Under the law of the European Convention on Human Rights, Ireland is obliged to introduce a scheme to enable legal recognition of the preferred gender identity of people. Once legal recognition of the preferred gender identity is achieved, a person should be treated as if of that gender from that moment forward.
Who would benefit from the introduction of gender recognition legislation in Ireland?

There are three groups of people who would benefit from the introduction of gender recognition legislation. These are:
i. Transsexual people: those who have completed gender reassignment surgery from one gender to the other;
ii. Transgender people: those who for whatever reason are not undergoing a medical and/or surgical transition but who identify in the opposite gender role; and
iii. Intersex people: those whose bodies simultaneously combine both male and female biological traits who may not identify with the gender assigned at birth or who may not identify as either male or female.

What form should legal recognition of gender in Ireland take?

There are a number of ways in which legal gender recognition could be put into effect. To be all inclusive it is recommended that legislation is introduced which will encompass all three categories of people who would benefit from it. It is
suggested that accessing the right could depend on a sworn affidavit of intention to live permanently in the preferred gender role and a confirmation of gender identity; medical or surgical intervention; or confirmation as intersex.


TENI would like to see Irish gender recognition legislation which:

Respects privacy and dignity
Respect for the privacy and dignity of all people who might seek to employ the rights contained in a legislative scheme for gender recognition must inform all aspects of the drafting and implementation of such a scheme.

Is as inclusive as possible
The proposed legislative framework should be as inclusive as possible of all people who might benefit from the rights contained therein. Therefore, eligibility criteria should be kept as simple as possible to facilitate wide access to gender recognition.

Secures complete legal recognition in the new gender
Legal recognition implies that once recognised, a person is legally treated as being of the recognised gender from that moment on. Therefore, no other enactments are necessary in order to enable the person live life undisturbed. Where attempts have been made in other jurisdictions to regulate beyond recognition, such as the introduction of the requirement to disclose prior gender history on marriage, this creates new discriminations. Therefore, the law must treat the recognised person the same as others of the recognised gender.

Does not invalidate marriage and/or parentage
Recognition in the preferred gender identity should not invalidate any acts done prior to recognition. Therefore, parentage, marriage etc would remain unaffected by transition. To introduce a divorce requirement would pose particular difficulties in the Irish context. Furthermore, such a requirement is unfair to the supportive spouse and children of the person seeking recognition as it interferes with that spouse’s right to marry, and the rights of the children to remain part of the marital family. Therefore we would strongly recommend that those in a valid marriage or civil partnership should not be excluded from gender recognition provision.
Conclusion
Recognition of the human rights of transgender people has opened up legal possibilities, for now that the transgender person's human right to be recognised in a new gender has been acknowledged, issues concerning diagnosis, treatment and self-determination are likely to become prominent in human rights law. It is a time of real hope that can offer dignity and respect to people who have experienced discrimination and exclusion. It is vital that the opportunity to promote and establish equality and human rights for all trans people is not missed.





For further information or assistance please contact:
Kathleen Murray
TENI Transgender Equality Network Ireland
E director@teni.ie
T 01 633 4687

Louisevb

Azure_sky wrote: »

I would personally regard these as the three most urgent issues.

Well in reality legal recognition by the issuing of a birth certificate gives people legal status. That has to come before anything else, because transgender people are not currently legally recognised by state bodies so therefore the government will not change any of the above acts until that happens.

Annasopra

I sent this is - EVERYONE can still send something similar in TODAY

GRAG@welfare.ie

Dear Working Group

I wish to make a submission regarding the proposed Gender Recognition Act.

Firstly I believe the working group should take on board the views expressed by Thomas Hammarberg – The Council of Europes Commissioner for Human Rights recent comments regarding forced divorce and forced sterilisation.

http://commissioner.cws.coe.int/tiki-view_blog_post.php?postId=74

I am strongly of the view that forcing divorce and sterilisation should not be considered under Irish legislation

I think the working group should consider the fact that for various reasons some individuals may not be able to undergo physical surgery – However in these cases I think they should be allowed obtain a new birth certificate anyway

I strongly believe that the Data Protection and Employment Equality and Equal Status Acts must be updated to protect transsexuals

I think the general registry office or HSE should deal with this process – Decisions should NOT under any circumstances be at the whim of a Government Minister

Eebs

I'd like to bump this and include some hany bullet points of what I felt the main issues were.

Please please make a submission even if it's just a small bullet point list, even if you're no trans.

Thank you

***

· Introduce yourself, why you think inclusive gender recognition legislation is important, and why you have an interest in making a submission to the Gender Recognition Advisory Group (GRAG).

· Gender recognition legislation must be inclusive, and explicitly allow provisions for all transgender and intersex individuals to avail of it (not limited only to ‘transsexual’ people).

· Applicants must not be forced to choose between having their gender recognised and being in a civil partnership or marriage. Married and civilly partnered applicants should be allowed to remain in their marriages or civil partnerships and have their gender recognised. The rights of family, including children, must also be considered.

· An individual should be allowed to self-select for gender recognition simply by presenting a sworn affidavit, without the requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis or subjection to assessment by a statutory panel.

o The requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis for gender recognition is a violation of human rights and furthermore impractical in the Irish context due to the dearth of medical practitioners knowledgeable in trans experiences.

o Subjecting applicants to gender scrutiny by way of an ‘expert panel’ is inhumane and unnecessary. The costs and time involved, as well as the lack of expertise available for such a panel make this option unfeasible. It should be up to the individual trans person to select as an applicant for gender recognition, as members of the panel would inevitably impose their own ideas of what gendered appearances and behaviours constitute being ‘trans enough’.

o It is feasible and preferable in the Irish context for a sworn affidavit alone to qualify someone for gender recognition. This would be the most simple, cost-effective and appropriate procedure.

· The process must be timely, respectful and accessible to any transgender or intersex person who wishes to have their gender recognised.

· All of these requests are in line with European Human Rights norms.

Louisevb

Quote
"An individual should be allowed to self-select for gender recognition simply by presenting a sworn affidavit, without the requirement of (gender dysphoria) diagnosis or subjection to assessment by a statutory panel."

There is a major problem with this approach. Unfortunately there are individuals with mental health issues which may or may not be related to being transgendered. The approach until now has been to deal with these issues before/during transition. The process of transition is stressful enough at times, so to proceed without some treatment path in place could cause some serious issues, particularly within a hormone treatment programme.

I don't mean to be saying this in any way which is detrimental to those with mental health issues, but it is an issue that needs to be brought out into the open and discussed.

Annasopra

The GRAG report is being launched tomorrow morning at 11am

http://www.pila.ie/bulletin/latestbulletin/2011/07/13/gender-recognition-legislation-minister-to-launch-report-tomorrow--/

Heres some background info

http://www.irishexaminer.com/features/state-stalling-on-gender-issues-153614.html

Glitter

Available now on welfare.ie!

Major step forward - although unfortunately not covering those in existing marriages or civil partnerships and not covering intersex conditions. The report does recognise that something needs to be done for those in the latter group though, which is positive. Hopefully that will be the next step.

Overall - yay!

Links234

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/07/minister-burton-announces-legislation-on-gender-recognition-and-publishes-the-report-of-the-gender-recognition-advisory-group/?cat=12

L.Jenkins

http://www.teni.ie/attachments/98ceb736-ff8d-40f4-b5d9-ff921e0ab855.PDF

The report itself.

Annasopra

I had a quick glance through the GRAG report - I am struck by a few things - The medical language constantly used - The reccomendations not to amend equality or data protection legislation - The terminology seems wrongly worded to me - "acquired gender" - sounds absolutely horrible (I know it's a UK term) and "changing gender" also seems completely wrong in my view - As I understand it - a trans person is always their identified gender - it is their sex that is wrong (or perhaps thats a misunderstanding on my part) -

They also reccomend forcing divorce or dissolving CP - despite Thomas Hammarbergs reccomendations - This is a major issue problem that will delay transitions because of the constitutional timeframes for divorce (which they admit themselves)

I am also shocked that the GRAG was entirely civil servants - they met with groups but had no TRANS group or representative on the GRAG

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Policy/Legislation/Documents/gragreportjune11.pdf

It's a major step forward but it's not entirely great and does have some flaws

I think that forcing divorce/Cp dissolution needs to be looked at in the context of a proposed constitutional amendment for marriage equality - It may be constitutionally necessary to force divorce/Cp dissolution in the short term but I think that needs to be highlighted that it should only be a short term measure that should be repealed at a later stage

Annasopra

Really good critique of the report

http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2011/07/15/government-of-the-people-but-not-for-transgendered-people/

http://www.mamanpoulet.com/gender-recognition-report-fails-to-recognise/

deirdre_dub

TENI are going to have a community forum with a view towards getting input from the community to present to the minister.

Also, Louise has written her first thoughts about the report.

Annasopra

Article on Mandatory forced divorce

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0725/1224301312860.html

Annasopra

deirdre_dub wrote: »

TENI are going to have a community forum with a view towards getting input from the community to present to the minister.

Also, Louise has written her first thoughts about the report.

Bump - that's on tonight. Its open to all - trans and trans allies

Shakti

Wish I could go as I'm quite disappointed (not surprised) with the GRAG report it strikes me as a very defensive (also reductive, repressive, authoritarian, narrow, short sighted and uninformed) response to trans-folk and their needs.

L.Jenkins

http://www.tv3.ie/ireland_am.php?video=38034&locID=1.65.74

TENI Director Broden Giambrone discussed the proposed legislation to enable gender recognition this morning on TV3's Ireland: AM. Giambrone was interviewed alongside trans activists and educators Cat McIlroy and Leslie Sherlock.

Shakti

We didn't need 'GRAG' to outline the hypocrisy of Irish Law regarding marriage cow-towed as it is to the 'catholic church' who are indeed eminently more capable of demonstrating their hypocrisy themselves on this and other matters.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0115/catholic.html