How many signatures will it take to get Cowen Resign

newfrontier

Hi Guys have a look at petitions.ie there is a petition going to get Cowen to resign. My question is this how many signatures would it take to get cowen to resign? He is putting the by elections off ...to stay in power and he will do all he can to stay in power. But if we got a lot of signatures behind this .I mean everyone united and focused on one task .could it work?

cypharius

On an online petition? 6,000,000,000.

On a real petition? Same thing.

In short, don't waste your time.

Gunmonkey

Doesnt matter how many signatures you get, Cowen will just go "meh" and throw the petition in the bin. He knows he is in power for the next 2 years and there is pretty much F all we can do to force him out. losing the Dail majority might do it but the lack of by-elections nails that coffin.

PKen

First of all, are you suggesting a leadership change or replacing the whole government? If it's an election you want, what difference will getting rid of Biffo and Fianna Fail do? Is Eamon Gilmore going to be any better? Labour haven't said were the cuts are going to be (and they WILL be in the next government).
We have to cut a further 3 Billion this year and Gilmore/Labour are going to cut nothing! A painless budget? Wake up. I'm no fan of this current corrupt FF crowd, but we have to become solvent again as a nation or we're finished.
I hope Brian Lenihan holds his nerve and sees down the "Don't Cut My Money - Cut Him Instead" brigade. Everyone, including Public Sector and Old Age Pensioners (sorry) will have to take some pain. God knows, the rest of us have.

ninty9er

There's only one signature needed for that. His own.

Why shoud he resign based on what people have accrued as "fact" from papers that proclaim polar opposites to be true day-in-day-out?

As far as online petitions, the only thing more useless than online petitions is the storage space wasted to host them.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

There's only one signature needed for that. His own.

Why shoud he resign based on what people have accrued as "fact" from papers that proclaim polar opposites to be true day-in-day-out?

As far as online petitions, the only thing more useless than online petitions is the storage space wasted to host them.

Hmmm.....making it up as they go along and contradicting themselves with a different story every day......wonder who they learnt that from ?

Oh - for the record I've given up reading most newspapers, so your attempt as discrediting opinions is ridiculous.

ninty9er

:rolleyes:

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hmmm.....making it up as they go along and contradicting themselves with a different story every day......wonder who they learnt that from ?

Oh - for the record I've given up reading most newspapers, so your attempt as discrediting opinions is ridiculous.

Liam Byrne

ninty9er wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Did you have a point to make with that, or are you somehow disputing that Ahern and Lenihan and Cowen and O'Dea and Callely have been expert at changing their stories daily on topics from Lehman's to Anglo to dig-outs to brothel accusations to living arrangements ?

People in glasshouses.....

Wide Road

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Hmmm.....making it up as they go along and contradicting themselves with a different story every day......wonder who they learnt that from ?

Oh - for the record I've given up reading most newspapers, so your attempt as discrediting opinions is ridiculous.

Hmmmmm...... We live in a democracy. Hmmmm..... Why have elections if we only need petitions? Hmmmmm.... Would people stop being ridiculous and speak about the thread.

paddyland

Cowen would no more honour a public petition than Mugabe or Kim Jung Il.

He is already emulating their form of autocracy by withholding democratic by-elections to artificially protect his withering hold on power. What next? Withholding a general election too?

We may yet have to storm that place...

MySelf56

Signing a petition is like miss world talking of world peace. Honestly the dumbest thing i heard, i thought some non-political thread. You have choice to elect every 4/5 yrs. At least this time make your choice correct and also "its like", "ipad","chill/cool" generation use their voting right. Given the epitomy of lazyness can be seen in voting turnout.

PKen

paddyland wrote: »

Cowen would no more honour a public petition than Mugabe or Kim Jung Il.

He is already emulating their form of autocracy by withholding democratic by-elections to artificially protect his withering hold on power. What next? Withholding a general election too?

We may yet have to storm that place...

A general election will be held in 2012 (or sooner). Everybody should get out and vote as MySelf56 has said. Too many people never vote and then bitch about who's in power!
You said "We may yet have to storm that place". That "place" as you call it, is where YOUR government sits. You, me and all voters decide who goes to "that place". We still live in a democracy.

freewheeler

ninty9er wrote: »

There's only one signature needed for that. His own.

Why shoud he resign based on what people have accrued as "fact" from papers that proclaim polar opposites to be true day-in-day-out?

As far as online petitions, the only thing more useless than online petitions is the storage space wasted to host them.

Speaking of wasted storage space..i wonder how much more of our money will be wasted storing those pesky electronic voting machines??? He should resign because neither he, nor his party have any credibility left at this stage. But i forgot..its FF we're talking about here so to expect morals or decency is probably asking too much...

PeterIanStaker

PKen wrote: »

A general election will be held in 2012 (or sooner). Everybody should get out and vote as MySelf56 has said. Too many people never vote and then bitch about who's in power!
You said "We may yet have to storm that place". That "place" as you call it, is where YOUR government sits. You, me and all voters decide who goes to "that place". We still live in a democracy.

When the General Election takes place, Biffo & Lenihan will go to Tony O'Reilly's house the week before for a little chat. So it hardly matters who signs a petition or who even votes for that matter. Democracy my hole.

aidan_walsh

Save your petition for the ballot box.

Wide Road

aidan_walsh wrote: »

Save your petition for the ballot box.

Correct. You just summed it up.

bmaxi

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

When the General Election takes place, Biffo & Lenihan will go to Tony O'Reilly's house the week before for a little chat. So it hardly matters who signs a petition or who even votes for that matter. Democracy my hole.

Tony O' Reilly only has one vote, same as you or anybody else. If people choose to take the spoutings of the media over the evidence of their own eyes then there really is no hope.
It is not sufficient for the people just to get rid of FF from government, we must get rid of the major players in that organisation, at the same time letting whomever replaces them know that the free lunch has finished serving.

PeterIanStaker

bmaxi wrote: »

If people choose to take the spoutings of the media over the evidence of their own eyes then there really is no hope.

Thats the point I was trying to make.

Denerick

Cowen resigns.

Fianna Fáil politician 'x' takes over.

Well that changes a lot.

PomBear

oh what a democracy we live in where only 1 in 5 voters supports the government, the same government who are leaving 3 constituencies unrepresented because they want their government to survive even though though nobody wants them

jmayo

ninty9er wrote: »

There's only one signature needed for that. His own.

Why shoud he resign based on what people have accrued as "fact" from papers that proclaim polar opposites to be true day-in-day-out?
...

Lets have a look at some of the facts that this government and it's leadership have left the citizens of the state.

1. We have a current budget deficit in the region of 20 billion thanks to the public spending decisions of the previous regimes, which had many of the current one as major players (most of the ministers indeed share that commonality espeically the taoiseach).

2. Due to the lack of fiscal regulation by IFSRA and Central Bank which fall under the remit of the Dept of Finance, which was under the control of the current taoiseach between 2004 and 2008, we have had a total collapse of the Irish financial system resulting in two institutions being nationalised and one posting the WORLD's biggest financial loss in 2009.

3. Due to point 2 and the decisions taken to bail out said financial institutions, we have a position where the Irish taxpayers have had to pour over 20 billion euro into two defunct insolvent now nationalised financial institutions whose former management would be resting in jail if they happened to practice their management style in any other western democracy.

4. Due to the short sighted economic decisions implemented by the previous regime, of which our current taoiseach was the finance minister with respopsibility for economic and tax policies, we have had a jump in unemployment of the order of 250,000.

5. We have a health system that costs a huge portion of our tax revenue yet is an unmitigated disaster that allows kids in care to die, old to die in unmonitored nursing homes, cancer patients to be misdiagnosed, etc etc.

Now which of the above are not FACTS ?

Now you can spin these facts any which way, you can drag in red herrings like Lehmans or sindo bad journalism, but you will still arrive back to a realisation that is finally dawning on most citizens of this state, bar the myopic soldiers of destiny like yourself, that mr cowen has been responsible for setting this country's economic outlook back generations.

The only signatures I would like to see are on arrest warrants (and sentencing documents) for all the corrupt unethical incompetent arrogant connected pampered gobdaws, including ones with the names cowen and aherne. :mad:

Denerick

jmayo wrote: »

Lets have a look at some of the facts that this government and it's leadership have left the citizens of the state.

1. We have a current budget deficit in the region of 20 billion thanks to the public spending decisions of the previous regimes, which had many of the current one as major players (most of the ministers indeed share that commonality espeically the taoiseach).

The budget deficit was caused by a collapse in boom time revenues which the entire political spectrum imagined would go for ever and ever and ever. The only difference is that Fianna Fáil were in power. Fine Gael and Labour's senseless populist antics hold no illusion over me. If anything, both parties were promising both tax cuts (Labour promising to reduce the lower tax rate to 16% - thus decimating our tax base - and they also promised massive extra government spending. Fine Gael were promising a cut in stamp duty and an end to road tolls. Realistically if they had implemented the policies they championed our deficit would have been much worse. Which leads me to think that people will realistically overlook the facts for the sake of petty partisanship. This kind of delusion is not good for our country.

2. Due to the lack of fiscal regulation by IFSRA and Central Bank which fall under the remit of the Dept of Finance, which was under the control of the current taoiseach between 2004 and 2008, we have had a total collapse of the Irish financial system resulting in two institutions being nationalised and one posting the WORLD's biggest financial loss in 2009.

The only party of the big three calling for greater regulation in the financial markets was the Labour Party. We were merely following the light touch regulation regimes that were in vogue at the time, and arguably were the biggest contribution to our credit boom which essentially created the 'Irish Economic Miracle' - which of course was an economic illusion.

3. Due to point 2 and the decisions taken to bail out said financial institutions, we have a position where the Irish taxpayers have had to pour over 20 billion euro into two defunct insolvent now nationalised financial institutions whose former management would be resting in jail if they happened to practice their management style in any other western democracy.

What were the alternatives and what were Labour and Fine Gael proposing to do?

4. Due to the short sighted economic decisions implemented by the previous regime, of which our current taoiseach was the finance minister with respopsibility for economic and tax policies, we have had a jump in unemployment of the order of 250,000.

I had to laugh at this. You mean the short sighted economic decisions the people of Ireland have demanded election after election after election? Politicians run to win elections. Citizens should be virtuous and hold their Republic to account. I care very little for their whinging after the event.


When will you people accept that the Irish people are rotten to the very core? You don't blame a dog for being a dog - I don't blame a politician for being a politician (IE, trying to win elections) The citizens of this country have to take responsibility for being selfish egotistical individualistic nihilists who were more than prepared to pass off the responsibilities and debt to their grandchildren by voting to continue on the boom times. I don't hold Cowen in much blame. As the old saying goes, he just did what anyone else would have.

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

I don't blame a politician for being a politician (IE, trying to win elections)

....assuming that's what you believe a politician should do. Their "job", however, is not "to win elections", it's to govern ethically, responsibly and sustainably.

Denerick wrote: »

The citizens of this country have to take responsibility for being selfish egotistical individualistic nihilists who were more than prepared to pass off the responsibilities and debt to their grandchildren by voting to continue on the boom times.

I didn't vote for that, so less of the emotive bull****, please.

Denerick wrote: »

I don't hold Cowen in much blame. As the old saying goes, he just did what anyone else would have.

Can I call you on "Irish Psychics Live" ? And I presume - given that argument - you don't believe in arresting drug dealers either, because if they didn't sell drugs then someone else would have ?

kilburn

there isnt enough people in the EU to sign it to get him out.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

....assuming that's what you believe a politician should do. Their "job", however, is not "to win elections", it's to govern ethically, responsibly and sustainably.

Ideally politicians should be held to account by their citizens. The stark reality is that Fianna Fáil were consistently returned to power by the Irish electorate. I'm afraid I can only blame the people, as they gave the government their legitimacy. Politicians should aim to win elections, that is their function after all. Whether they govern ethically is determined by the people who elect them, and they didn't seem to care either way.

I didn't vote for that, so less of the emotive bull****, please.

You voted for one of the big three, so I assume you in essence agreed with the political consensus of the times.

Can I call you on "Irish Psychics Live" ? And I presume - given that argument - you don't believe in arresting drug dealers either, because if they didn't sell drugs then someone else would have ?

What a ridiculous thing to say. Drug dealers earn their living vis a vis drug users. Politicians earn their living from the voters. If the voters decide to return a party consistently guilty of what are perceived as bad economic policies, then it only stands to reason that the government were merely abiding by the wishes of the people.

If you don't slap a dog for pissing in your kitchen, how do you expect it to ever learn?

jmayo

Denerick wrote: »

The budget deficit was caused by a collapse in boom time revenues which the entire political spectrum imagined would go for ever and ever and ever. The only difference is that Fianna Fáil were in power. Fine Gael and Labour's senseless populist antics hold no illusion over me. If anything, both parties were promising both tax cuts (Labour promising to reduce the lower tax rate to 16% - thus decimating our tax base - and they also promised massive extra government spending. Fine Gael were promising a cut in stamp duty and an end to road tolls. Realistically if they had implemented the policies they championed our deficit would have been much worse. Which leads me to think that people will realistically overlook the facts for the sake of petty partisanship. This kind of delusion is not good for our country.

Ah yes I see you are using one of the favourite ffer mantras that is resorted to once "it was all Lehmans fault" argument is thrown out.
It doesn't matter what the f*** the others MAY have done.
ff DID IT and with such affectiveness that the country is crippled.


I would love to see you managing the defence in a murder trial.
"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the other people there on the night may also have killed the victim if they had a chance, so that means the defendent is not really that guilty."

It is you that is delusional if you think that blaming somebody else for what they might have done will absolve ff of blame for crippling the country.
BTW FG had been against benchmarking and that was one of the big reasons for jump in public sector spending.

Denerick wrote: »

What were the alternatives and what were Labour and Fine Gael proposing to do?

Ah so it is the fault of FG and Labour. :rolleyes:
Perhaps it is the fault of the Brits or maybe the Germans for saving money and them allowing it be lent out around Europe ?

Denerick wrote: »

I had to laugh at this. You mean the short sighted economic decisions the people of Ireland have demanded election after election after election? Politicians run to win elections. Citizens should be virtuous and hold their Republic to account. I care very little for their whinging after the event.

It is up to government to lead not meekly follow what vested interests and supporters want.
Of course that principle is alien to ff and their cohorts.

BTW if you are a parent do you give into every little demand from your kids or do you take a long term balanced approach even if it is unpopular in the short term ?
That is what good government is like, of course again ff's only concern is getting elected and f*** it if the country suffers long term.

I don't think the vast majority of people in this country ever wanted house prices to be allowed go throught the roof.
So the biggest factor in creating a bubble economy was allowed go unhindered by the ff led government.
Hell it was exaserbated by their tax policies.

I do agree I don't like former ff supporters/voters now whinging for electing a bunch of lying unethical, often corrupt incompetents.

Denerick wrote: »

When will you people accept that the Irish people are rotten to the very core? You don't blame a dog for being a dog - I don't blame a politician for being a politician (IE, trying to win elections) The citizens of this country have to take responsibility for being selfish egotistical individualistic nihilists who were more than prepared to pass off the responsibilities and debt to their grandchildren by voting to continue on the boom times. I don't hold Cowen in much blame. As the old saying goes, he just did what anyone else would have.

Yes there are a fairly sizeable bunch of people that are rotten to the core, who couldn't give a sh** about the long term and I bet you will find most of them vote for ff. :rolleyes:

Denerick

No offence, but I couldn't make any sense out of your post whatsoever. Take a valium or something.

jmayo

Denerick wrote: »

No offence, but I couldn't make any sense out of your post whatsoever. Take a valium or something.

Perhas I should just go and follow bertie's advice rather than complain :rolleyes:

Denerick

jmayo wrote: »

Perhas I should just go and follow bertie's advice rather than complain :rolleyes:

No, but you could structure your complaints a little better. We all have problems and are pissed off with the current situation, thats no excuse to write a poorly written diatribe that takes no account of external factors or a lack of internal alternatives.

jimmycrackcorm

jmayo wrote: »

Lets have a look at some of the facts that this government and it's leadership have left the citizens of the state.

Well then let's consider some other factors. Firstly does anyone actually believe that had fg or any other party been in power they world have destroyed the boom to ensure a good fiscal future? Can you imagine any party standing up and having said "listen lads we need to throw all these construction workers on the dole because the boom will end anyway and we'll save money in the long run". You can picture the media headlines about the government actively destroying jobs..

Secondly it was us, the people, who voted the government in during the last election because we didn't want the party time to change. Now we have the hangover we're looking to blame the party organizer for us freely attending it.

I say "we" because there's not much point in anyone posting that they personally didn't vote for ff.

Liam Byrne

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I say "we" because there's not much point in anyone posting that they personally didn't vote for ff.

That is a ridiculous statement.

OK - so there are lots of voters who condone incompetence and corruption (about 20% last count) - but THEY voted for FF, not WE.

THEY borrowed too much, not WE.

I love the way it's all collective "WE" when the **** hits the fan, but when Seanie & Co were making billions and Ahern was getting free houses and dig-outs worth a year's salary WE didn't see any of it. :mad:

Liam Byrne

Denerick wrote: »

What a ridiculous thing to say. Drug dealers earn their living vis a vis drug users. Politicians earn their living from the voters. If the voters decide to return a party consistently guilty of what are perceived as bad economic policies, then it only stands to reason that the government were merely abiding by the wishes of the people.

Avoid the point much ?

I was commenting on your claim that Cowen "isn't to blame" because someone else would have done the same - wrong - thing. YOUR example implies that there's no blame for the drug dealer that you're arresting because someone else would sell drugs anyway.

BTW, are the voters still at fault if they're lied to all the way, or told that they're being so pessimistic that a smug little self-confessed nepotistic prick with his own pockets lined by well-heeled mates reckons they should commit suicide for stating the facts ?

Denerick wrote: »

If you don't slap a dog for pissing in your kitchen, how do you expect it to ever learn?

"Learn" ??? :rolleyes: Probably because that's an approach that you apply to 2-year-old kids who don't yet know right from wrong. Adults - particularly those being paid a small fortune - should.

I've never been "slapped" for murdering anyone, but I know it's wrong.

What are Callely's and Cowen's and Flynn's and Ahern's and Burke's and Lawlor's and O'Dea's and O'Donoghue's excuses ?

paddyland

In every election over the past decade or so, Fianna Fáil were beholden to another party, and/or a small band of unethical independents. So they only ever had a loose hold on power - the majority of this electorate did not vote for them. Fianna Fáil never had to even try to please all of the people. They just needed to look after their own little coterie, and their political manoeuvring would do the rest.

Fianna Fáil were always abhorrent to a large sector of the community. The only difference now is that they have managed to reinforce that abhorrence massively in recent times. We always knew they were a bit corrupt. There was always a whiff of sulphur. But I think nobody ever realised just how destructive they could be with their backs to the wall. They literally would sell this entire country down the river for even just a few months of political survival.

Right now, every single story regarding job losses, unemployment, emigration, banks, economic meltdown, scandal, corruption and unethical carry on should be prefaced by a photograph of Brian Cowen and the Fianna Fáil logo.

We will deal with whatever Fine Gael and/or Labour might/might not be able to do if and when they take power. Hopefully, we will hold them to a very tight expectation of accountability. But first, we must get rid of the lies and corruption merchants that hold sole responsibility for allowing this country go down the tubes. Make no bones about it, FF were in power all of this time. It happened on their watch. There is no way to excuse that.

Laminations

Denerick wrote: »

If you don't slap a dog for pissing in your kitchen, how do you expect it to ever learn?

So you won't be voting for FF next election?

On the one hand you blame the voters for voting in the government of doom (whether they were duped or otherwise), yet you continue to support FF.
In your example, FF are the dog that has just pissed in your kitchen. Now if you want to have any credibility in your argument that you cannot blame the dog, it was doing what it was allowed get away with, then you must have the conviction now to punish the dog - otherwise we all blame people like you, for stifling the slap of the electorate.

jmayo

Denerick wrote: »

No, but you could structure your complaints a little better. We all have problems and are pissed off with the current situation, thats no excuse to write a poorly written diatribe that takes no account of external factors or a lack of internal alternatives.

Would those external factors be Lehmans ? :rolleyes:

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Well then let's consider some other factors. Firstly does anyone actually believe that had fg or any other party been in power they world have destroyed the boom to ensure a good fiscal future? Can you imagine any party standing up and having said "listen lads we need to throw all these construction workers on the dole because the boom will end anyway and we'll save money in the long run". You can picture the media headlines about the government actively destroying jobs..

Secondly it was us, the people, who voted the government in during the last election because we didn't want the party time to change. Now we have the hangover we're looking to blame the party organizer for us freely attending it.

I say "we" because there's not much point in anyone posting that they personally didn't vote for ff.

As Tonto said what's this WE paleface ?
Speak for yourself and how you may have voted.
I do not want to ever be associated with ahern and ff voters.
I see it as an insult to my intelligence and patriotism.

No one was ever saying throw all the construction workers on the dole, but your hyperbole argument is trying to twist things to imply that.
For a start the heat should have been taken out of the construction bubble in 2003 - 2005 before all those people, mainly young males, were ever hired into the construction industry.
The aim should always have been to preserve sustainable export earning or import replacement industries.
Instead the government let Irish business competitiveness slide.

By the time of the last election summer 2007 the die had been cast and we were already headed for the abyss.
The party was already over and the damage had been done.
What has happened since is the fact that every taxpayer, current and future, is being tied to the debts created by the friends of ff: the developers, the builders, the bankers.

Any gobdaw would have noticed that you should not put all your eggs in one basket, especially one that was only ever going to be a short term gain and one that resulted in no real export revenue.

The heat could have been taken out of the bubble by removing tax breaks for investor and speculators, but the government with ahern and cowen at the helm stood idly by and did nothing.

And even worse they increased public sector psending base don these short term transaction non sustainable taxes.

Denerick

Laminations wrote: »

So you won't be voting for FF next election?

On the one hand you blame the voters for voting in the government of doom (whether they were duped or otherwise), yet you continue to support FF.

This is why I DESPISE partisanship.

Show me even once were I have ever said I have voted for Fianna Fáil. It is possible to analyse politics without having an active interest in a certain group.

Denerick

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Avoid the point much ?

I was commenting on your claim that Cowen "isn't to blame" because someone else would have done the same - wrong - thing. YOUR example implies that there's no blame for the drug dealer that you're arresting because someone else would sell drugs anyway.

BTW, are the voters still at fault if they're lied to all the way, or told that they're being so pessimistic that a smug little self-confessed nepotistic prick with his own pockets lined by well-heeled mates reckons they should commit suicide for stating the facts ?



"Learn" ??? :rolleyes: Probably because that's an approach that you apply to 2-year-old kids who don't yet know right from wrong. Adults - particularly those being paid a small fortune - should.

I've never been "slapped" for murdering anyone, but I know it's wrong.

What are Callely's and Cowen's and Flynn's and Ahern's and Burke's and Lawlor's and O'Dea's and O'Donoghue's excuses ?

Liam,

You have as I see it, two choices. You can either ignore human nature and create a delusionary world for yourself where 'the other guy' will do the right thing by virtue of not being a member of political party x, y, z etc.

Or you can accept that human nature is rotten to the core and that the citizen has an active, not a passive, responsibility to ensure good governance. We end up with the government we deserve, not the one we actually want.

Laminations

Denerick wrote: »

This is why I DESPISE partisanship.

Show me even once were I have ever said I have voted for Fianna Fáil. It is possible to analyse politics without having an active interest in a certain group.

So in answer to my QUESTION you would say 'no I won't vote FF in the next election'

For someone who claims they don't support them, you spend a lot of time on here defending them.

How about you list why you won't vote for them?

PS and in your constant defence of FF you still stifle the slap of the electorate

scr123

newfrontier wrote: »

Hi Guys have a look at petitions.ie there is a petition going to get Cowen to resign. My question is this how many signatures would it take to get cowen to resign? He is putting the by elections off ...to stay in power and he will do all he can to stay in power. But if we got a lot of signatures behind this .I mean everyone united and focused on one task .could it work?

If Boards.ie started a politics forum for schoolkids this thread would be a prime starter !!

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

If Boards.ie started a politics forum for schoolkids this thread would be a prime starter !!

Do you boyos have the FF equivalent of a bat signal??

Tell us again the reasons you love and support Cowen and FF...

Denerick

Laminations wrote: »

So in answer to my QUESTION you would say 'no I won't vote FF in the next election'

For someone who claims they don't support them, you spend a lot of time on here defending them.

How about you list why you won't vote for them?

PS and in your constant defence of FF you still stifle the slap of the electorate

I am not defending them insomuch as I'm criticising everyone else. I'm sick and tired of the bar-room idiocy that passes for political debate in this country.

And I won't vote for them because it will be good for Irish democracy to have a change of governing parties, though I don't for a moment suspect the fundamental philosophy will change at all.

scr123

Laminations wrote: »

Do you boyos have the FF equivalent of a bat signal??

Tell us again the reasons you love and support Cowen and FF...

Its not love and support for FF and Cowen, its total disrespect for those who believe they are better than FF. Maybe if I even got a hint of something better than FF I would consider signing a petition. You lot think FF are bad but if you only saw yourselves from where I sit you would have a nervous breakdown !!

Laminations

Denerick wrote:

And I won't vote for them because it will be good for Irish democracy to have a change of governing parties, though I don't for a moment suspect the fundamental philosophy will change at all.

A change will be good? Thats the best you can muster? While I agree, I find that a weak understatement lessened by the last line which has a similar sentiment as 'sure they are all the same'. Why not give us a list of criticisms that justifies not giving them your vote? Can you indeed be critical of FF? Because I really don't get the impression you think they've done anything particularly wrong

Laminations

scr123 wrote: »

if you only saw yourselves from where I sit you would have a nervous breakdown !!

Ah so you are having a nervous breakdown? That explains it

Denerick

Laminations wrote: »

A change will be good? Thats the best you can muster? While I agree, I find that a weak understatement lessened by the last line which has a similar sentiment as 'sure they are all the same'. Why not give us a list of criticisms that justifies not giving them your vote? Can you indeed be critical of FF? Because I really don't get the impression you think they've done anything particularly wrong

All I can say to that is 'LOL'.

1) The emergence of crony capitalism and the parish pump corruption endemic within FF needs stamping out.

2) They have proven to be incompetant in handling various health and education issues.

3) I like Labours idea of having a Constitutional assembly. I strongly dislike their economic policy. I can't think of any reason to vote FG other than to say 'NOT FF'.

So yeah. I'm not exactly blessed with riches here. I don't hold Cowen or the party personally responsible for the crisis as they were only following orders from a deluded and selfish electorate who thought the good times would never end.

Einhard

paddyland wrote: »

Cowen would no more honour a public petition than Mugabe or Kim Jung Il.

He is already emulating their form of autocracy by withholding democratic by-elections to artificially protect his withering hold on power. What next? Withholding a general election too?

We may yet have to storm that place...

Oh for God sake don't be so bloody melodramatic. Were you hiding under your bed as you typed that, hunkered down, terrified that at any moment the sound of jackboots would advance up your drive, your door kicked in, and you dragged kicking and screaming from your family to be executed, or sent to a "re-eductaion" camp? If not, then quit with these nonsensical comparisons between Cowen and his administration and those tyrannical despots in Harare and Pyongyang.


As to honouring a public petition, the reason he wouldn't is because he wouldn't have to. A better reason is because it would set a terrible precedent for him to do so.

paddyland

Einhard wrote: »

Oh for God sake don't be so bloody melodramatic. Were you hiding under your bed as you typed that, hunkered down, terrified that at any moment the sound of jackboots would advance up your drive, your door kicked in, and you dragged kicking and screaming from your family to be executed, or sent to a "re-eductaion" camp?

Melodramatic...? :rolleyes:

paddyland

Denerick wrote: »

I don't hold Cowen or the party personally responsible for the crisis as they were only following orders from a deluded and selfish electorate who thought the good times would never end.

Well that statement sure qualifies everything else you post here.

Meanwhile, the large majority of the rest of us DO hold Cowen and his party personally responsible, Cowen in particular who was the minister for finance who led us all blindly into this mess. I'm sorry, but I don't want the guy who robbed the bank brought back to fix the wall. Perhaps you were deluded and selfish, but plenty of us weren't, did not vote for FF, but still got the mess we didn't vote for.

Liam Byrne

I don't hold Cowen or the party personally responsible for the crisis as they were only following orders from a deluded and selfish portion of the electorate who vote FF because they have the same ethics and philosophy, and have no interest in sustainability and who thought the good times for themselves would never end.

As I said before, the rest of us have higher standards.

As for accepting that human nature is to be corrupt, I certainly hope not. Yes, there are an increasing amount of scum out there, but the day that I give up on being decent and ethical and wanting decency and ethics in return is the day I follow Ahern's advice.

And as you said earlier, if people (and I include you in that because you have indicated that there's no "real" reason - to you - not to vote FF) don't teach FF the lesson they need to learn, then this country is up the creek without a paddle.

It's a country I feel less and less a part of every day.

Wide Road

paddyland wrote: »

did not vote for FF, but still got the mess we didn't vote for.

• I think it's the democracy thing that gets you and others. Do you believe in it or not? Cast your mind back just recently to the FG leadership vote. Beforehand we were told Enda had to win by a large margin or else he was a lame duck. Didn't happen, but to follow your theory, what about the Fine Gael TDs that opposed Enda? Who have they now? See the larger picture. It's called democracy. You don't always get what you want in this life.

AngryHippie

Never gonna happen, One thing you have to admire about BC is that he is as thick (stubborn) as he is deep and wide. He'll stick to the guns of democracy, and when you've got the FF machine in your hands, and the less than perceptive Irish electorate behind him, he's as safe as Harneys treadmill.