HSE breaking contractual agreements with NCHDs. AGAIN!

ORLY?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Many of my medical school classmates drive new or nearly new BMWs, Mercs, S2000s etc.

There's no accounting for taste.

I have three questions for you. Were these cars bought with their own money of family money?

If bought with their wage, is it because they are overpaid or because they work nearly two working weeks per week?

You said you were better paid than all of your friends in other areas, what areas are they in and do you make more per hour worked?

Nchd2010

Accounting, Engineering, public sector, some sort of money/fund management bollox, teaching. Probably not a huge amount of difference in hourly rate tbh.

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

In fairness, we all also know of jobs in certain hospitals, where call can consist of sitting in the res for the weekend and not really doing an awful lot...I know that even the presence of a doctor in the building is a valuable service for the HSE but still...

Most would have bought cars with own money including overtime, but in fairness, there are people in strictly salaried jobs in the private sector who work fairly hefty overtime with no recompense.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Accounting, Engineering, public sector, some sort of money/fund management bollox, teaching. Probably not a huge amount of difference in hourly rate tbh.

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

You are working over twice the recommended maximum hours for a training doctor in the EU. Work out your net hourly wage for that week based on the 108 hours, and tell me if you feel so warm and nice inside about being able to pick up a few extra hours of overtime.

Nchd2010

That seems a bit cynical. All I'm saying is there's people much worse off than doctors. This evening, I'm tired, pissed off, and feel like I haven't had any time off in weeks. I'm definitely not saying it's good to pick up overtime for financial reasons. But I'm earning more now in my early 20's than my Dad did at any stage in his working life, doing a job that though sometimes (frequently) frustrating and depressing, is a job I have always wanted to do, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. We are lucky.

A close friend is in negative equity and was made redundant over a year ago. With no prospects in her chosen industry, I'm sure she'd find it a bit sickening to hear me complaining about having too much work.

In the real world, where many doctors from privileged middle-class backgrounds have no experience of, things are an awful lot worse.

I remember in the first few days of medical school, a lecturer trying to find out why each of us had chosen a career in medicine. No-one suggested money, (honestly though, this was a factor -a small one- for me) we need to all realise our job is wonderful, and can be extremely satisfying, and the money we are paid and the conditions we work in whilst frustrating and incomprehensible are adequate.

Why not try and improve things in a positive way? The training grant is gone, salaries will be cut further...we just have to get used to it.

resus

Problem being, no matter how altruistic we are, there are better deals elsewhere and even altruistic people HAVE, migrated towards better terms & conditions, training, money, quality of life etc. This is not a reflection on the individual doctors who just want to provide a quality service to their patients, weighted up against quality of personal life, and will seek out systems in which to do so.

The HSE has got is spectacularly wrong. We have A&E departments on the brink of closure, theatre slots shut down, patient care compromised all down to lack of NCHDs. This is a direct consequence of undervaluing our services AGAINST international market forces. Like it or not, this is reality.

This country is desperate for doctors. You get what you pay for. And pay is NOT just about money, because funnily enough, I am actually satisfied with my take home pay. What I'm NOT happy with is the piss poor working conditions and piss poor conditions of our hospitals where patients are literally dying needlessly. I'm not happy about lack of training opportunities and career progression, I'm not happy about terms & conditions of service.

Pastafarian

Ok so NCHD2010, you posted so many things that are just plain wrong I feel I have to take you to task. Incidentally are you really an NCHD ?

Whilst training here is appalling in most specialties, making a personal contribution to further education is not unreasonable, and not out of line with many other professions.

I've worked in other private sector professions. I had money thrown at me for training. Courses, degrees you name it they wanted to give it to me. Its one way of retaining staff - which is something the HSE doesn't have to worry about since we are all on 6 or 1 year month contracts. See what people, including you, fail to realise is that 'private sector' is a lot broader in scope than public sector. Private sector includes small, medium and large organisations. By and large most medium to large organisations are happy to financially aid staff in further training. Small organisations are not really a relevant comparison to the HSE.

I accept that working hours are onerous, and flouting of relevant legislation is widespread, however, as a 3rd year graduate, I am earning far in excess of most, if not all of my school classmates.

So its about money then for you?

I agree to an extent, but I think many medics seem to think we have the hardest job in the world.

I don't think that. Thou I agree many medics do think that. I've had worse jobs. But every single one of those worse jobs had better working conditions than being a doctor does - by a wide wide margin.

However, there's almost half a million unemployed and the country is bankrupt. Many of my medical school classmates drive new or nearly new BMWs, Mercs, S2000s etc. None of my school classmates do (then again I wasn't privately educated). Our job as doctors, even in the bleakest moments enables us to provide solace and comfort to the sick and afflicted which is a tremendous privilege in itself.

BMW's mercs s2000s. So again we are onto money. Also if you are so worried about the unemployed would it not make more sense for you, your sho's and interns to work less and for the HSE to hire in some people to do the task you waste your time doing like fetching xrays and phlebotomy ?

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

Based on ?? And I guarantee you no-one but no-one wants to work 108 hours a week. If you chose to convince yourself thats in anyway aceptable then don't cast that acceptance on to the rest of us please. Honestly the double-think apparent in your above quote is just palpable. (Note this denial is evidence of your upcoming diagnosis ).

In fairness, we all also know of jobs in certain hospitals, where call can consist of sitting in the res for the weekend and not really doing an awful lot...I know that even the presence of a doctor in the building is a valuable service for the HSE but still...

Oh....I am REALLY glad you said this. I hear docs say this sometimes and it makes my blood boil. This is what 'ON CALL' is supposed to be! It is supposed to mean you are on site waiting for your services if needed, resting when you have opporunity to be ready for action. It is not suppossed to be running around like a headless chicken doing a million things - it IS NOT supposed to be a continuation of your day job. Now I should say - I've done on call from home in previous jobs in private sector industry. Most nights I took one or two phone calls. Rarely did I have to actually go in. I went to work the next day rested and able to function - tey would not have let me near the really really expensive equipment otherwise. 'On call' IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE a continuation of your day job. ESPECIALLY when you are working the next day. EVEN MORE ESPECIALLY when live hang in the balance. In no other job is one expected to work as hard 'on call' as one is during the day. And in no other job is one expected to continue to work thru the next day or several days. Now you may justify this however you want (again symptoms of your diagnosis) but the bottom line is this: we are duty bound to come to work sufficiently rested to do our job (just as we are duty bound to come to work sober). If you work all night and day and all weekend you ARE doing your patients a disservice, no matter how much of a superman/superwoman you think you are. If you don't object then you are giving approval to the system.

Most would have bought cars with own money including overtime, but in fairness, there are people in strictly salaried jobs in the private sector who work fairly hefty overtime with no recompense.

Again, cars, money. This justifies working dangerous hours does it ? You see I object more about the hours we work not because I don't like it - I don't. But more because it IS NOT SAFE. I cannot abide it. So I am left with the choie to either rebel or quit. At least if I locum I can dictate my own terms and only work ethically sound hours.

That seems a bit cynical. All I'm saying is there's people much worse off than doctors. This evening, I'm tired, pissed off, and feel like I haven't had any time off in weeks. I'm definitely not saying it's good to pick up overtime for financial reasons. But I'm earning more now in my early 20's than my Dad did at any stage in his working life, doing a job that though sometimes (frequently) frustrating and depressing, is a job I have always wanted to do, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. We are lucky.

Again money. Also - woudl you feel so happy about it if you were ten years older and were missing your kids growing up cause you work so much ? Not all who work these hours are young free and single. THere are more perspectives than your own.

In the real world, where many doctors from privileged middle-class backgrounds have no experience of, things are an awful lot worse.

Please. Not all docs come from same background. Not all have the same outlook.

I remember in the first few days of medical school, a lecturer trying to find out why each of us had chosen a career in medicine. No-one suggested money, (honestly though, this was a factor -a small one- for me) we need to all realise our job is wonderful, and can be extremely satisfying, and the money we are paid and the conditions we work in whilst frustrating and incomprehensible are adequate.

You know for someone who isn't motivated by money you sure talk about it an awful lot. Let me say this - I WILL take a pay cut for improved, safe working conditions. As will/have all of our colleagues who have gone to Oz or the US. Will you take a pay cut to implement changes? Cause you sure seem happy to stay with the status quo.

Why not try and improve things in a positive way? The training grant is gone, salaries will be cut further...we just have to get used to it.

Are you for real ? See its comments like this that make me think you are working for the HSE or something. We don't have to get used to it - not at all.


And so, I was discussin all this with a like minded colleague recntly and he came up with a diagnosis for docs like you. You are suffrering from Stockholm syndrome (either that or you've allowed yourself to be bought off and are in denial). You have come to identify with your abducters. You have such strong case that even thou they now leave the door open for you to come and go as you please you love them for the security they provide. But it may not be too late for you - you just have to be really brave


Incidentally I'm on a day off. Wahts your excuse for having time to post here ?

Prime Mover

You might be fine with the current situation as someone in their early twenties, probably unmarried, no kids, lots of disposable income.

In ten years time when you still won't be a consultant and will be reapplying for a job every six months, trying to find time for your family, and realising that that many of your friends now completely out-earn you on a per hour basis and in work-life balance, you might not be so positive.

Also, any decent company will cover your training costs. Successful companies invest in their staff.

Jane5

NCHD2010,
Nobody believes for a minute that you are a real NCHD, honey. Are you a HSE plant?

The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc.

So we will have to get used to our training being effectively abolished, and our salaries cut unilaterally huh? I might respectfully suggest to anyone who holds that view that they should blow it out their ass.

You are being very irresponsible advocating acceptance of crap/no training, and ever deteriorating work conditions. You see, poorly trained, exhausted, morale depleted, depressed ill doctors make mistakes and kill people. And don't even try that "it's a vocation" crap, that line has been long used by management pricks to try to justify forcing horrendous and ILLEGAL working conditions on young doctors who have no proper union to defend their interests.

Sycophantic masochistic doctors like you, (if that is what you are) who not only accept the crap but openly advocate that if it should be worse that we should take it are one of the reasons that healthcare is so crap in this country.

You maintain an unhealthy status quo that sees pregnant NCHDs forced to work 60 hour shifts and miscarry.

You maintain a status quo that sees NCHDs killed on the roads every year from fatigue and falling asleep at the wheel. And patients harmed by being treated by exhausted doctors who are not even fit to drive a car, but are forced to staff a hospital without sleep or meal breaks for often days and nights on end.

You maintain a status quo where training is so poor and so difficult to obtain that mistakes are made, and lack of skills and knowledge cause patients to suffer.

You maintain a status quo that sees hundreds of NCHDs emigrate despite wishing to stay in Ireland, after being educated at considerable taxpayer expense.

You maintain a status quo that accepts that hospitals are so poorly staffed that NCHDs work over 100 hours a week routinely, and suffer ill health effects from it, while patients suffer and yes, often die because of delays in medical care.

I could go on, but I am too angry. Grow up, if you are actually a doctor, and become responsible.

Shame on you.

Nchd2010

I ADMIT IT!!! I'M A HSE PLANT!!

For all those complaining about our world class provision of healthcare, prepare to be renditioned to Guantanamo post haste.

No.

I'm not. If you really think that the "health" service has nothing better to do than spy on whinging doctors then...

Let me clarify. I think provision of training is poor in this country. However I have spent about €12,000 of my own cash doing a masters, and believe its only reasonable that we make some sort of financial contribution to our training. Lets be honest, the previous system was wide open to abuse, and if we’re not blind or stupid, all of us will be aware colleague nefariously claiming money from the grant.

For example in the law profession, barristers spend years devilling for little or no money, often subsisting on part time jobs unrelated to their career. Many other professionals spend significant sums on higher training and extra qualifications.

Those companies “throwing money” at poor pastafarian (i hope it wasn’t coins, that might have hurt) were almost certainly not on the brink of bankruptcy, attempting to provide an essential service to a growing population with little or no funds and extremely high rates of inflation. Also, in the private sector, performace and outcome is monitored. I’ve worked with many doctors who are substandard in the past year. One doctor I know was working in an emergency department, and managed to fail an ACLS course, which takes a lot tbf. Such inadequacy would simply not be tolerated in the private sector.

“you, fail to realise is that 'private sector' is a lot broader in scope than public sector”. Now this is just petty. There really is no need to intimate that I don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand economics. I do. And I understand the hardship many people are undergoing having fallen into redundancy. In these straitened times many large companies have cut back dramatically on training expenditure. This is a fact.

“Successful companies invest in their staff” –Prime Mover. Unsuccessful, incompetent companies simply can’t.

Let me answer a few other points:

1. It’s not all about money for me. Don’t know how anyone got this impression. I might be mistaken, but I think I’m the only poster on this thread who consistently referred to the enjoyment and sense of fulfillment to be found in the practice of medicine. Coming from a working class background, unlike many of my colleagues, means that I know the value of money. I don’t make money my master though. If I did, I wouldn’t be in medicine.

2. “if you are so worried about the unemployed would it not make more sense for you, your sho's and interns to work less and for the HSE to hire in some people to do the task you waste your time doing like fetching xrays and phlebotomy ?”. This is silly. I referenced the unemployed to make the point that the country is bust. Bankrupt. Insolvent. The salutary tale of Depfa and Hypo Real Estate shows just how close we were to defaulting on our sovereign debt. This threat has not gone away. Employing, training and providing pensions and ancillary benefits for such staff (who are largely unnecessary) does not make economic sense.

3. I’m well aware that call is not an extension of the day job. However it simply does not make sense to have highly skilled and educated young people sitting around watching telly in the res. My point is that we should really be agitating for a genuine 24/7 health service, with most doctors working shifts. Obviously buy-in from allied healthcare professionals is a major stumbling block at present. There is however clear potential for such a system which would reduce working hours, waiting times, provide training and good quality care. Which tbf is better than some doctors sitting on their arse watching telly while others are working like dogs.

4. I’ve never said anything justifies working dangerous hours and I don’t agree with it. I know how easy it is to nod off driving home, or driving to the other end of the country for lectures and I’ve been scared ****less sometimes.

5. “Not all who work these hours are young free and single. THere are more perspectives than your own.” Everyone has a choice. Everyday we make them. There is opportunity cost with every decision we make. We can’t have everything. I’d love to be a cardiothoracic surgeon, but I’ve shifted my focus to another area of medicine because the opportunity cost was too great.

6. “We don't have to get used to it - not at all.” We do. Our pay will be cut further. The economy is failing. What we can do is try to make things better within the medical community. Ask your consultant for a tutorial…don’t go to the res and watch telly-teach your junior doctor something.

7. “You are suffrering from Stockholm syndrome”. Thanks. I’m not suffering from anything of the sort. I know that the HSE is incompetent, bloated and inefficient. I do try to make a difference. However, I really don’t think I deserve any more money than I earn. Nor do many other doctors. Particularly in the current economic climate.

8. “Not all docs come from same background. Not all have the same outlook.” True. But medicine is dominated by the middle classes with an unjustified sense of entitlement. At the IMO rallies in 2008 when the HSE made an effort to make genuine cuts to NCHD pay, a common attitude expressed was “but I’ve got a mortgage to pay”

9. “Wahts your excuse for having time to post here ?” I had a few quiet hours on Saturday night and made a few posts on Sunday, my day off.

10. The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc." The SpRs in your department are earning, at the very least, €65k gross. Realistically, about €80k. If buying a fancy car was their priority, they could comfortably afford it. Trust me.

11. I'm not maintaining any status quo. I'm actively involved in trying to improve training and conditions, mainly at a local level. However i really believe that whinging about money and training grants when the country is bankrupt and patients are dying for the lack of appropriate investment will not help anyone.

Seriously guys, I am a doctor. A conscientious one. Talk to your consultants about your concerns. I'm usually on first name terms with most of the consultants I have worked for and have had rows with several with regard to training and remuneration issues. Most really want the best for their colleagues and understand the position.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

10. "10. The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc." The SpRs in your department are earning, at the very least, €65k gross. Realistically, about €80k. If buying a fancy car was their priority, they could comfortably afford it. Trust me.

I am not sure how you managed to pay €12000 of your net income for a Masters. That would be around €20k of a yearly gross income on an average NCHD wage of €80k or so.

With regard to those €80k salaries, the net income is €1747 every two weeks. I know because that is what I got - roughly €3700/month. That is the peak salary that 90% of Irish doctors will get to, as only 10% will ever get a consultant post in ireland. Most of the time, they will get to that salary for 1-2 years, and then emigrate.

Nchd2010

€1747 a fortnight isn't really too shabby in all fairness.

I'm not sure why you're surprised at paying €12k for a masters. €6k a year in two installments.

Hypothetically, if i had bought a house in the boom, mortgage €1000 pcm, car loan say €600 pcm, living expenses €1000pcm. Still leaves a fair bit of money for sundries. Also if I was any way organised, i could claim about 20% back in tax relief at the standard rate. Must get around to that.

ThatDrGuy

Ive been reading this with interest. Your a year 3 Graduate with a Masters ?? When did you do it ? After your intern year ? Hardly part of your training if you do it before you have started your career. First name basis with your consultant ? Unless his first name is DR i doubt it.

Some points:
Lawyers get to go home at night. So does essentially every other employed person in the country.

Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law. That is quite a unique condition of employment.

Overtime is not a gift. Nurses/Porters/Pharmacists do overtime indeed, voluntary overtime largely. NCHD overtime is mandatory.

As for money and the private industry. I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital. They are paying the market price for a doctor. The HSE is paying far below market price under the guise of "training".

As for money. Don't get me started. Have you any idea how much money the HSE wastes each year ?? Its astronomical. They managed to spend 32 million euro last year to rent empty buildings ! http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firesale-of-vacant-hse-sites-to-fund-mental-health-reform-2106642.html

They hire lawyers to try and hide the amount of children who died in care from the Children's Ombudsman. They hire spin doctors and industry consultants at hundreds of euro an hour. These people are criminally negligent.

The loss of all educational funding is a massive blow. They had to cancel the last ACLS at my hospital because no one signed up.

As for money. I would happily take a 50% pay cut if I had the same working conditions I had when I was in NZ.(Going back there next year - can't wait). There isnt enough money in the word to compensate me for the exhaustion,stress,destruction of social life and horror of working for those gob****es.

There are plenty of sub par doctors out there. Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things.

Lastly the country is indeed bust. Things are going to get a lot worse for any doctor employed by the HSE. They will happily work you to death before they will do anything pro-active about fixing the rot that lies within.

Nchd2010

"Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law." What?

"NCHD overtime is mandatory." If you want to work within the EWTD do so. If any disciplinary action is taken, you'll have a strong case. You'll win. A colleague of mine is unilaterally doing such a thing.

"I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital". Of course you can. The opportunity cost is that your career progression will be hampered.

Did part time masters during first and second SHO years. 24 weekends per year + research project.

You're right in your opinion of the HSE though. They are a right shower. But my main point is that NCHDs are relatively well remunerated.

"Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things". Sacking them and closing small, dangerous hospitals whilst upgrading larger hospitals will though. There is scope for this with a bit of thought and imagination.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

€1747 a fortnight isn't really too shabby in all fairness.

I'm not sure why you're surprised at paying €12k for a masters. €6k a year in two installments.

Hypothetically, if i had bought a house in the boom, mortgage €1000 pcm, car loan say €600 pcm, living expenses €1000pcm. Still leaves a fair bit of money for sundries. Also if I was any way organised, i could claim about 20% back in tax relief at the standard rate. Must get around to that.

Tax relief on what exactly? Magic beans? There is no "20% back in tax relief at the standard rate".

If you bought a house in the boom and are paying €1000/month you also must have one of the magic houses next to the magic hospitals. Most jobs are in Dublin, where a "house during the boom" was €300+, closer to €400k for an average price in Dublin. Try closer to €1500. The sort of person that thinks 16%+ of you income is suitable for a CAR LOAN?????

Are you mad? That is the worst financial planning ever. None of what you are suggesting reflects reality. Your €600/month car loan - don't forget and extra €50/month for road tax, and an extra €125/month for insurance (assuming you are male and under 30, driving a car under 2 litres). Your car costs alone are now €775/month, without even maintenance or even PETROL to put in it. Suddenly, over 20% of monthly income is gone just to have a car on your driveway in your world, and this makes sense to you????

REALLY? Even at a coservative estimate of €200/month on petrol (that is probably low considering the €1000/month boom house you bought 100km outside of Dublin), your car costs on a < 2 litre car, for an under 30 year old driver, average monthly petrol for commuting, puts it at over 26.5% of net monthly income. Let's ignore tyres and servicing which would add another €50/month over a year assuming nothing goes wrong.

If these are what you are realy suggesting, I think you are likely a university student and not actually paying bills, because you seem to be forgetting all the costs around it and looking at "mortgage" "car loan", but oblivious to all the associated costs.

sam34

dissed doc wrote: »

With regard to those €80k salaries, the net income is €1747 every two weeks. I know because that is what I got - roughly €3700/month. That is the peak salary that 90% of Irish doctors will get to, as only 10% will ever get a consultant post in ireland. Most of the time, they will get to that salary for 1-2 years, and then emigrate.

i'm on 4th year SR salary and i dont get 1747 net. i think you're calculating that before cuts/levies etc

dissed doc

sam34 wrote: »

i'm on 4th year SR salary and i dont get 1747 net. i think you're calculating that before cuts/levies etc

Well it may have dropped more as it's a while since I was there. From what I have been told, it's now in the €1600/fortnight. range. AGain, not a totally bad salary, but seeing as it takes around 12 years since starting college to get it, there are more attractive options financially in medicine abroad.

SleepDoc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

"Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law." What?

"NCHD overtime is mandatory." If you want to work within the EWTD do so. If any disciplinary action is taken, you'll have a strong case. You'll win. A colleague of mine is unilaterally doing such a thing.

"I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital". Of course you can. The opportunity cost is that your career progression will be hampered.

Did part time masters during first and second SHO years. 24 weekends per year + research project.

You're right in your opinion of the HSE though. They are a right shower. But my main point is that NCHDs are relatively well remunerated.

"Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things". Sacking them and closing small, dangerous hospitals whilst upgrading larger hospitals will though. There is scope for this with a bit of thought and imagination.

We are not well remunerated. A dentist 2 years out of college will earn about 75k (and they do, I have friends on that amount). I think a 4th year SPR does a much more important, skilled and stressful job and does'nt get that.

Your attitude is essentially one of "c'est la vie". It is attitudes like yours that force your more proactive and less obsequious colleagues away. You're welcome to the health service that remains.

Nchd2010

Tax relief on what exactly? Magic beans?

That's a bit juvenile. I fail to see how you didn't know I was referring to tax relief on university fees

I didn't buy a house during the boom, cos I actually understand the value of money. A bag of sand a month would comfortably service a €250k mortgage when mortgage interest tax relief is taken into account. Most sensible people wouldn't have bought a house on one income...either buying with a spouse/partner or renting out a room or two. So with a reasonable deposit, it really isn't that much of a stretch to buy a reasonably good house in a decent area. Really if you can't service a mortgage on little under a third of net income then the mortgage is subprime and one should have had the sense not to do it.

Clearly I also didn't buy a fancy car and don't have a car loan of €600pcm. These are kind of back of a fag packet figures taken off the top of my head, to illustrate what one could easily do on a salary of almost €3.5kpcm.

n

extra €125/month for insurance (assuming you are male and under 30, driving a car under 2 litres

Now that is a phenomenal insurance policy. i don't pay anything like that. If you like, pay me €300, and I'll get you a much cheaper fully comp quote for your insurance, presuming you're like the others who don't like driving fancy cars. Though if you've a load of penalty points or have crashed a lot, I may have slight difficulty. But I doubt it. Tax should come in at less than €300 if you drive any kind of a sensible car.

As you can see I've left €250 a week for living expenses. That should comfortably cover petrol etc. Well it would for me. But I don't have a particularly expensive or flashy lifestyle.

Dissed doc, I didn't mention those figures as an example of prudent financial management, rather as an illustration of what one could do on what is a fairly good salary. My financial affairs are in fact far more sound and if I wanted to, without touching savings for a house deposit etc, I could easily buy a newish A5 or similar car for cash. Not that I would. But I could.

My attitude is definitely not "c'est la vie" but I really think there are more important things to be proactive about than our remuneration. Such as training, career progression and hours of work.

Incidentally, some dentists may well earn in the region of €75k, but there were dentists in my class in college who after some years in practice had decided medicine was a better option and earned nowhere near that kind of money. Also many dentists are independent practitioners and work for themselves. I'm sure if I was an independent practitioner doing locum work I could easily double that. Without working particularly long hours.

ORLY?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Tax should come in at less than €300 if you drive any kind of a sensible car.

Not true. Certainly not with a car more than 2 years old.

Nchd2010

Well in fairness, it's around €350 for a reasonable sized engine from what I recall. Haven't paid it in a few months. Certainly nowhere near €600 unless you're driving a 1.8-2.0 litre. Which is kind of wasteful environmentally and financially tbf.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

That's a bit juvenile. I fail to see how you didn't know I was referring to tax relief on university fees



I didn't buy a house during the boom, cos I actually understand the value of money. A bag of sand a month would comfortably service a €250k mortgage when mortgage interest tax relief is taken into account. Most sensible people wouldn't have bought a house on one income...either buying with a spouse/partner or renting out a room or two. So with a reasonable deposit, it really isn't that much of a stretch to buy a reasonably good house in a decent area. Really if you can't service a mortgage on little under a third of net income then the mortgage is subprime and one should have had the sense not to do it.

Clearly I also didn't buy a fancy car and don't have a car loan of €600pcm. These are kind of back of a fag packet figures taken off the top of my head, to illustrate what one could easily do on a salary of almost €3.5kpcm.

n

Now that is a phenomenal insurance policy. i don't pay anything like that. If you like, pay me €300, and I'll get you a much cheaper fully comp quote for your insurance, presuming you're like the others who don't like driving fancy cars. Though if you've a load of penalty points or have crashed a lot, I may have slight difficulty. But I doubt it. Tax should come in at less than €300 if you drive any kind of a sensible car.

As you can see I've left €250 a week for living expenses. That should comfortably cover petrol etc. Well it would for me. But I don't have a particularly expensive or flashy lifestyle.

Dissed doc, I didn't mention those figures as an example of prudent financial management, rather as an illustration of what one could do on what is a fairly good salary. My financial affairs are in fact far more sound and if I wanted to, without touching savings for a house deposit etc, I could easily buy a newish A5 or similar car for cash. Not that I would. But I could.

My attitude is definitely not "c'est la vie" but I really think there are more important things to be proactive about than our remuneration. Such as training, career progression and hours of work.

Incidentally, some dentists may well earn in the region of €75k, but there were dentists in my class in college who after some years in practice had decided medicine was a better option and earned nowhere near that kind of money. Also many dentists are independent practitioners and work for themselves. I'm sure if I was an independent practitioner doing locum work I could easily double that. Without working particularly long hours.

Earning money because you are working illegal hours is the fault here. If you are really a doctor 2-3 years out of training it's unlikely you'd have been able to put away the €42k in cash unless + another 16k of gross income on a masters (that's over 70k of gross income) in a few years, considering the salary of an intern --> SHO is around 35k-45k gross.

I.e., you are working 80hrs+ and therefore in no position to assess your financial status based on doctors earnings, because you are doing two jobs to have that much saved in the first place. This "two job" work pattern is missed on most doctors.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 you have done a great fantastic job of dragging things off topic here from every irrelevant thing from cars to your background (congrats on escaping the ghetto by the way), but you are singularly failing to address the key point.

Myself and several others you are disagreeing with have directly stated we would gladly give up income in exchange for better workign conditions and proper training. Not only do we desire it, but we are quite prepared to take action including resignation and even emigration to achieve that such is the strength of our feelign.

My direct questions to you:
1. Do you wish for the current dangerous system be reformed as the rest of us on here or pushing for and willing to make sacrifices to obtain (primarily for the benefit of patients I must add)b, or do you wish for the current system to be maintained ?
2. Are you prepared to give up income in the morning as many of us are in order to achieve this ?

Frankly it seems like you are very invested in maintaining the status quo

SleepDoc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Well in fairness, it's around €350 for a reasonable sized engine from what I recall. Haven't paid it in a few months. Certainly nowhere near €600 unless you're driving a 1.8-2.0 litre. Which is kind of wasteful environmentally and financially tbf.

You're brilliant and an inspiration. Would that were every doctor like you. Environmentally aware and unmotivated by money, conditions of work or further education.

Thank you for the money saving tips. Shop around you say, and shop around is what I'll do! Any advice on recycling stethoscopes?

Nchd2010

Pastafarian. I wonder if you've actually read my posts? Do you pay as much attention when you're taking a history?

I responded to many posts by giving simple anecdotes about money and stuff like that, and tried to point out that there is an unjustified sense of entitlement amongst what is largely a middle class profession. If this is something you can't follow, I genuinely fear for you.

The initial topic of the thread was a whinge about training grant reduction. Not about provision of training. Just about how it's paid for. Understand? Therefore I think it's more than reasonable to point out that we are a well off group of people, who can and should afford to make a financial contribution to training. Obviously you don't agree and think everything should be handed to us on a plate. Which is a poor attitude really. And reminds me of the privately educated tossers who used to always be campaigning for free university fees back in my undergrad days. Direct question, do you think we should make a financial contribution towards our training?

we are quite prepared to take action including resignation and even emigration to achieve that such is the strength of our feelign.

Right. And you haven't done this yet? Clearly a very strong feeling then. Probably easier just to whinge about it.

Again in response to your question, I've stated many many times that I am concerned about the training situation, and am proactive on a local level in trying to improve it. Did you miss that? Or are you just too tired and worn out that you can't read properly?

Finally I've stated on many occasions that I AM NOT MOTIVATED BY MONEY. I could easily be earning more money elsewhere and choose not to. I think given my last point you should realise that clearly I would sacrifice money for training. As I have done by paying for a masters. You must be a wonderful diagnostician if your deductive reasoning is this poor.

Sleepdoc:
Thanks very much. But don't shop around. I'll do it for you. For a small fee that I'll donate to charity.

You can probably repair your stethoscope or I'm sure there's some charity that would take it. What happened to it anyway?
This might help : http://lmgtfy.com/?q=recycle+broken+stethoscope

resus

And all of the above is EXACTLY why we can't get anywhere as a group.

Problem is that getting anywhere in medicine is all about # 1. So we inherently learn to argue and screw each other over to get to the top. Hence we are such an disorgansied bunch.

So back to something i wrote about a week or so ago. Empower yourselves as individuals. Don't be screwed over by middle managment, they are desperate right now to keep hospitals open and thereby keep their own 9-5 with and hour lunch break jobs.

Refuse to work the illigal rota, put letters of resignaiton in, cc to CEO as to why you can not break the law. They fire you, you have case + you have more than enough opions of getting market rate pay as locums.

Nchd2010

resus wrote: »

And all of the above is EXACTLY why we can't get anywhere as a group.

Refuse to work the illigal rota, put letters of resignaiton in, cc to CEO as to why you can not break the law. They fire you, you have case + you have more than enough opions of getting market rate pay as locums.

DO NOT DO THIS.

Seriously...if they accept your resignation, then they're not firing you. Therefore there is no case. Your job is gone.

The optics are poor. If hundreds of doctors do this and become locums earning outrageous money, you can imagine what the headlines in the Hedild will be. Bargaining power for when we want stable jobs will be on the floor.

This will also likely have a negative impact on your training and career prospects.

You could argue that it's unethical...when you took the job, you accepted the terms and conditions and the custom and practice. Now you would be disregarding the care of patients.

Just get involved with the IMO. Obviously they're not perfect. But guess what...we are the IMO. Anyone who complains about the IMO is really complaining about themselves. There simply isn't a way that another grouping or union would be more successful. If there are people that are incredibly brilliant at IR, then why are you sitting on your hands now...why has it taken you so long to do anything?

Jane5

That is so pathetic.

"Disregarding the care of patients????"

Well, even going near them when you haven't slept in 30 hours is gross negligence. Studies have shown that this long without sleep is like having a blood alcohol level significant enough that you should not drive or operate machinery.

Additionally, if you hand in your notice, that is what it is. Notice. The hospital has more than enough time to get a replacement.
Hey! Guess what? If they were complying with the LAW and the legally binding negotiated contract and the EWTD, then getting a replacement for your resigning ass would be easy peasy.

You symbolise all that is wrong with the health service, NCHD2010. Put up and shut up, for fear of the consequences. Allow training, work conditions and hence patient care to be eroded further and further until it's all but gone.

Your stupid sh*t about how NCHDs should be expected to make financial contributions towards their training. Where to begin? Do you have any idea? Are you five years old or something?

In the US, residency lasts for 4 years. Then you are a consultant.
In the UK, structured training, on schemes that guarantee employment in a specific location for the duration of your training till consultancy are standard.
Ditto Oz and NZ, and the money is Oz is fantastic.

Here, you can piss away your life, into your forties, reapplying for jobs every six months, in different locations. Repeating exams endlessly. Attending conferences, courses, buying books. All running into many thousands of euro a year.

Now, fine while you are a wet behind the ears twenty something, with no mortgage, children or dependents.
But not feasible for many. I cannot afford the training expenses this year. Hence I'm already cutting corners, and have not purchased any books or gone on any courses. Already my training, and the calibre of doctor I am is suffering.

You need to wise up and grow up.

drkpower

Nchd2010 wrote: »

DO NOT DO THIS.

Seriously...if they accept your resignation, then they're not firing you. Therefore there is no case. Your job is gone.

That's not strictly true. There would be an argument for constructive dismissal but you really dont want to go down the legal route for a multitude of reasons.

I agree with you that the 'look after #1" route is not the way forward. While Resus is dead right in the sense that most NCHDs are more concerned with looking after their own future prospects than with solidarity, even the most selfish NCHD will follow if shown leadership. When it comes to industrial relations, unions (with the active encouragement of members) usually show that leadership. Unfortunatley for NCHDs, both of the above are sorely lacking.

Jane5

Ya know, NCHD2010, you seem remarkably invested in maintaining the corrupt status quo for someone who is so junior. I've literally never, ever heard an NCHD say the things you do.

Can I ask you a question? What are your thoughts on consultants who work in public hospitals treating private patients? You know, their NCHDs spend a huge proportion of their time treating their consultants private patients.

You know, I thought of something. If NCHDs were remunerated for the time they spend working looking after private patients from the insurance company or the consultant themselves, proportionately, they could well afford their training expenses, and would save the HSE a fortune.

What are your thoughts on that?

SleepDoc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

The optics are poor. If hundreds of doctors do this and become locums earning outrageous money, you can imagine what the headlines in the Hedild will be. Bargaining power for when we want stable jobs will be on the floor.


You could argue that it's unethical...when you took the job, you accepted the terms and conditions and the custom and practice. Now you would be disregarding the care of patients.

What someone in the media may write is utterly irrelevant. We are highly skilled, educated and motivated (at least until the last year or two). If some tabloid hack does'nt like it, well they don't like many things. Let them come in and manage a shocked patient at 3 am after working for 18 hours straight.

Ethical obligations also apply in relations between employer and employee. The HSE is incompetent and does'nt give a fig about doctors, their training or their pay. Like Jane, every month I go into overdraft, not because of a profligate lifestyle, but because I pay for training that is unlikely now to be repaid (at least monetarily). And I don't want your back of envelope budgeting tips.

From your earlier posts I gather you have a bee in your bonnet about peoples backgounds (middle class etc). While I appreciate that getting to where you are may have been difficult, so has it been for all of us.