HSE breaking contractual agreements with NCHDs. AGAIN!

Jane5

I received this attachment from medical HR regarding our "training supports", **snigger**

Note this part:

Contribution towards approved examinations

The HSE will continue to make a contribution towards the cost of specific
examinations as established by the Postgraduate Medical and Dental Board (PgMDB).
The list of examinations developed by the PgMDB has now been reviewed by the HSE with a view to ensuring that it supports relevant examinations. The list of examinations approved by the HSE is set out in Appendix Two.

The sum of the contribution to be made available by the HSE to support NCHDs will continue to be €450 per examination as specifically identified in Appendix Two.
In cases where the cost of the exam is less than €450, then the amount contributed will be the same as the cost of the examination.

This contribution should only be made available by employers upon the applicant NCHD successfully passing the relevant examination and providing to the employer the necessary documentation to confirm same.
No contribution will be made in scenarios whereby the exam is not specifically identified in Appendix 2 or where the applicant has failed the exam.

This is a blatant serious breach of the agreed terms and conditions of the new NCHD contract as negotiated on our behalf by the IMO. Has anyone contacted them about this? I am no longer a member, as I have been disgusted for years with their poor efforts to secure any type of decent working conditions for the NCHD cohort of their membership.

The HSE can't keep riding us bareback like the spineless fools that we are. Is it time for another High Court challenge????

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

resus

IMO didn't negotiate anything re: training
Nil negotiated, Nil breached

Time to stop wasting our time with IMO and start flexing our individual muscle. Hospitals desperate for NCHDs, so put in your notice over this, if this in an issue YOU feel strongly about, and move to a hospital which honours terms and conditions YOU have agreed with them.

It is amazing how many "alternative" contracts are out there now, largely owing to our skills now being in hot demand.

... market forces etc.

take everything

resus wrote: »

IMO didn't negotiate anything re: training
Nil negotiated, Nil breached

Time to stop wasting our time with IMO and start flexing our individual muscle. Hospitals desperate for NCHDs, so put in your notice over this, if this in an issue YOU feel strongly about, and move to a hospital which honours terms and conditions YOU have agreed with them.

It is amazing how many "alternative" contracts are out there now, largely owing to our skills now being in hot demand.

... market forces etc.

This is what i was thinking.
Many hospitals are crying out for SHOs at the moment- surely it gives doctors some leverage.

Jane5

I like your idea of negotiating things for ourselves instead of relying on our "union". However, they actually did negotiate terms and conditions vis a vis exams and training financial supports, and it did not include a "pay only if you pass" scenario. The deal was to pay, full stop. The HSE are breaking this agreement.

resus

Fine, like I said, YOU feel they are not honouring the Terms and Conditions of YOUR contract, give them notice and leave. EVERY single Personnel Department across the country are looking for NCHDS. Tell them you'll take the job on the condition that you get these entitlements paid and you want it in writing before you start...

docbroc

For the record I would like to quote something I posted over a month ago that was replied to by a high ranking member of the IMO:
Quote:
Originally Posted by docbroc

In terms of exam and training fees. Our Medical Admin has a big mouth. She has just gotten back from their latest coven with news. From the 1st of July the plan is - your exam is only covered first time and only covered if you pass. UK exams will not be covered. Preparatory courses of any kind will not be covered. This is what happens when you entrust education to the HSE.

That is rubbish. She's talking out her backside[IMO NCHD High Ranker]

resus

Backside or no backside, the circles of "letters" and "complaints raised" and "threats leading no place" and then "issue forgotten about" or my personal favourite, "it's being dealt with on a national level!" will continue unless we take things in our own hands.

Bullying is rife under Medical Unionism I'm afraid. The "Best" deal for all, sod the individual is the basic rule.

The true power is that we are in hot demand. We need to use this card...

beeno67

resus wrote: »

Backside or no backside, the circles of "letters" and "complaints raised" and "threats leading no place" and then "issue forgotten about" or my personal favourite, "it's being dealt with on a national level!" will continue unless we take things in our own hands.

Bullying is rife under Medical Unionism I'm afraid. The "Best" deal for all, sod the individual is the basic rule.

The true power is that we are in hot demand. We need to use this card...

Sorry if a stupid question. It is a long time since I worked in hospitals, but, if NCHD jobs are decreasing and medical graduates are increasing, why are NCHDs in demand?

RobFowl

beeno67 wrote: »

Sorry if a stupid question. It is a long time since I worked in hospitals, but, if NCHD jobs are decreasing and medical graduates are increasing, why are NCHDs in demand?

Because a huge amount of NCHD jobs are no longer approved training position and as a result are of no use whatsoever to any doctor who is in training (ie almost every single one).

opinion guy

Training grants ??!!??!?!!?!?!?

Screw that. NCHD's are still-working 50, 60, 70, 80 hour shifts with no break.

1POD

I've just been doing some quick calculations here.

I pay €65 a month by direct debit to the IMO, which, as I look at yet another overdrawn bank statement, I am really struggling to justify.

I regret this situation as I fundamentally believe in the principle of having a strong union in order to represent its members. I have been a member of the IMO since I graduated several years ago and I normally don't have a lot of time for people who join for a month or two during a rough period and then cancel their membership as soon as the storm settles. At the beginning of last year when all the cuts were first mooted I whipped up lots of support and signed up many new members in my own hospital, naively spouting the IMO line of needing close to full membership in order to represent us effectively. A fair point, I thought.

18 months later what has been achieved?

A look at the IMO website reveals that the last update relating to NCHD's was 7 months ago and indicated that the High Court case against the the HSE has been settled. Apart from a few wishy washy emails from the IMO in the interim stating that X has come their attention and they are continuing to state their position and are negotiating with the HSE and will let us know in due course when it is sorted out. I have seen no proactive efforts by the IMO to protect the welfare of doctors and patients by insisting that education and training is essential for all doctors.

The HSE has been allowed to pretend that it is making a significant contribution to training costs of NCHDs while in reality, the funding that once existed towards the cost of books, courses and exams has been effectively removed. A payment is being made directly to the respective colleges towards training an elite subgroup in numbered training posts without any requirement for the colleges to clarify exactly what they will provide in return for this payment and whether or not that payment will cover the huge fees (compared with UK courses) currently being charged by the colleges for courses and exams. Where were the IMO when this cosy arrangement was being sewn up? And in a turkeys-voting-for-Christmas type manouevere, it has now been decreed that courses in the U.K. will no longer be funded, despite the fact that they are frequently the only option for many doctors due the the limited number of courses provided by the colleges here. ( It must also be noted that the U.K. courses are quite often of a significantly higher standard than those provided in Ireland and attendance there should be encouraged). In the past 2 months I have paid (in addition to mandatory medical council, college and professional association membership fees )over €6000 in course fees, exam fees, flights and (budget) accomodation: training which was not available in Ireland, necessary for my job and for which I can't even claim tax relief at present, never mind receive funding towards it.

The HSE has somehow decided that it will pay up to €450 towards one of ACLS, ATLS and APLS courses (total cost of each being approx €500, €750 and €800 in addition to travel and accommodation expenses) and that it will only pay college exam fees on passing exams: most of which have a notoriously low pass rate. I'm straining hard to hear the IMO objecting to this.

Contrary to public perception, there has been no improvement in my working hours since the alleged introduction of the EWTD. In actual fact, because of the unbelievably shortsighted measure of introducing numbered training posts without sorting out all the other problems, a number of posts in our department, like many others have been left unfilled, due to the difficulty in recruiting NCHDS, forcing the remainder of us to work extra call to cover these vacancies. In addition, I have yet to hear the IMO highlight all the extra work undertaken by NCHDs outside their "rostered" hours in terms of audit and morbidity and mortality meeting preparation which is essential if a hospital is to function safely.

What is most regrettable the current situation is the general perception that the situation is so complicated that it can't be sorted out and the general air of despondency and frustration among NCHDs. Such a pity when there are well functioning models in the southern hemisphere.

So back to the calculations: apparently there are roughly 3600 NCHDs in the country. If even 1000 NCHDS paid, as I do, €65 per month into a fund: that would create a pot of €780,000 to employ a few properly qualified and dedicated souls whose full time job it would be to represent the views and interests of NCHDs at national level. Quite frankly, I am tired of being preached at that my union is only as strong as its members and that I need to get involved: I work between 60 and 100 hours every week, I have exams to study for and I have a family to look after. I have solidly paid my membership fees, attended every hospital meeting, returned every IMO survey and driven several hours to regional meetings on a number of occasions and I have no inclination to spend any more time on even more meetings that are achieving little.

I think its time we had a dedicated union to represent the hospital doctors.

Is anybody interested?

resus

Absolutely Interested 1POD
Problem being is, are there enough of us who would bother their arse doing it...?

I am increasingly believing the days of the traditional Unions are numbered. I for one am getting 10x further negotiating my own T&C. It is amazing how quickly T&C are honoured and back pay is paid properly when you hand in your 2 week statutory notice!

Power of the individual/professional is strangely on the increase!

Would setting up another "union" be the answer? or a collaborative employment of a lawyer and an accountant (the latter being the most nb) to accurately quantify how they are screwing us and then defend it.

ie. accept the crap thrown at us, but robustly ensure every hour worked is paid for?

jmn89

Wow, so even after medical school the faceless monsters don't stop screwing you wherever they can... I'll be an NCHD in one year's time - can't wait!

Jane5

1POD,

I would be very interested. I have often thought about starting up a union, and even looked into a few of the requirements before, how many members you need, etc. I have an interest in employment law as a family member is a solicitor who specialises in this area.

PM me if you're serious, I know a couple others who might be interested too.

What would we call the new union? Need a catchy name!

docbroc

Been there done this. From what I remember the existence of the IMO throws a major spanner in the works.You probably couldnt get your union declared a legal entity with rights to negotiate/take industrial action as long as the IMO is around. Your options would be to form a representative group ie IHCA or to join a more competent large union the HSE is afraid of ie SIPTU. If we had been members of SIPTU this last few years believe me we would be exponentially better off now.

docbroc

Jane5 wrote: »

1POD,

I would be very interested. I have often thought about starting up a union, and even looked into a few of the requirements before, how many members you need, etc. I have an interest in employment law as a family member is a solicitor who specialises in this area.

PM me if you're serious, I know a couple others who might be interested too.

What would we call the new union? Need a catchy name!

How about the DFWU - the Dont Fcuk With US union.

resus

Union per say is not necessarily the answer, given the huge cost involved.

Our rights are negotiated already, just not being actively enforced. Which is the IMOs downfall.

What is needed is a cooperative/collective and incredibly SIMPLE means of ensuring our contracts are enforced.

Doctors per say are too damn busy to accurately collate their hours worked against what we're actually paid. LArgely because our contracts are so complex. So RECORDS enforceable in court exist, but just not collated in a usable manner. We ALL know we are underpaid, just can't prove it !!! We all know our rotas are illegal, just too scared to step out of line for fear of not getting the next job. Which is incomprehensible to any outsider, but it's true.

THIS is where we must start ie. HISTORY
then get accurate audit of problem ie. EXAMINATION
then get a real fickle, young, dynamic lawyer on it ie. INVESTIGATION

Doubt it will EVER need to go to court.

Pastafarian

resus wrote: »

Absolutely Interested 1POD
Problem being is, are there enough of us who would bother their arse doing it...?

I am increasingly believing the days of the traditional Unions are numbered. I for one am getting 10x further negotiating my own T&C. It is amazing how quickly T&C are honoured and back pay is paid properly when you hand in your 2 week statutory notice!

Power of the individual/professional is strangely on the increase!

Would setting up another "union" be the answer? or a collaborative employment of a lawyer and an accountant (the latter being the most nb) to accurately quantify how they are screwing us and then defend it.

ie. accept the crap thrown at us, but robustly ensure every hour worked is paid for?

See I think the bolded part above is the key.

I think setting up another union is redundant and unobtainable, althou some sort of NCHD association is perhaps merited. Quite aside from that there is a clause in the new NCHD contract that I'm think rather sneakily means that only the IMO can renegotiate the contract (but don't take my word for that). Task num1 would be to compile a list of contract abiding jobs. They are out there - its just where ? Also this varies with specialty - for example A&E are EWTD compliant generally everywhere - others not so. But some are.

Imagine what would happen if every NCHD could look up a list of jobs that are compliant with the contract and the EWTD. Imagine - it comes around to job time and you can look up the list and see that surgical sho's, regs in St HolierThanJesusHimself's will get their training grant but are rostered to work a whole weekend. etc. OR hospital Y only has 5 people covering Ortho call so you will work 1 in 5.

Individual docs would then be empowered to make informed choices about where they work. Lets start using market forces to our advantage now that we are in heavy demand. As an individual I have already planned out my letter stating that if they don't comply to EWTD, I'm leaving to somewhere that does.

Such an association could also make policy statements. For example Minister for Health cuts support to home carers by x%. Or hospital x has to close its a&e as there are 500 people on trollies. IMO and IHCA to their combined shame never say anything about these things (whether this is due to the gagging clause written into new contracts or union policy I'm not sure). INO on the other hand is always right up there in Six-One rightfully saying how terrible it is.

tallaght01

Look at what Remedy did in the UK.

The BMA were equally as shyte as the IMO, so a group of NCHDs formed "Remedy".

They still don't have negotiating rights, but they're growing, they're very popular, and they make the NCHDs feel like someone is fighting. They even brought some of the bigwigs to the high court a few months ago.

http://www.remedyuk.org/

Jane5

That sounds like a great start, Pastafarian! It would be easy enough to have a website, hosted by one of us, where docs could send in their scanned contracts, or fwd us copies of letters/emails from HR/Med Recruitment, as well as posting up details of who pays overtime legally, who refuses to pay for exams, etc.

As it is your good idea, would you be interested in starting that up? I'd be happy to help anyway I could, or to start it off if you were too busy to? It's easy enough to collect NCHD contact details, I could get at least 100-200 right off the bat, as well as Facebook, and could send a group mail to let them know that this is up and running, and that it is a collaborative thing.

Nice idea! And a good bit easier than starting a union, I have to say, and no cost.
Thanks for that! makes me very positive when people come up with great suggestions for these neverending problems NCHDs seem to continually face.

resus

Good by me too. Very +ve move. Facebook makes us easily identifiable, which is a problem if you make -ve remarks, but not a bother if you are positive about things.

So here is a thought. How about highlighting +ve jobs we know about in a structured format, I think there is a website in UK which started doing this, I'll try to hunt it out.

Nobody can slam you for saying, "Bantry General has a reputation for great Medical SHO teaching and experience there is regarded highly." But they could slam you for saying .... has a reputation for not paying overtime correctly."

SleepDoc

Exam fee 700 euro

Refunded by HSE 450

Journals, courses 2000 approx.

Refunded by HSE = 0

This is another pay cut in all but name.

I've cut back on useless, frivolous expenditure such as IMO membership.

Jane5

resus wrote: »

Good by me too. Very +ve move. Facebook makes us easily identifiable, which is a problem if you make -ve remarks, but not a bother if you are positive about things.

So here is a thought. How about highlighting +ve jobs we know about in a structured format, I think there is a website in UK which started doing this, I'll try to hunt it out.

Nobody can slam you for saying, "Bantry General has a reputation for great Medical SHO teaching and experience there is regarded highly." But they could slam you for saying .... has a reputation for not paying overtime correctly."

Well, I'm not talking about being Pollyanna about it either. While knowing the positive stuff is nice, and positive comments would be useful, I do mean primarily naming and shaming. It can be done anonymously, or can set up a members only login so members can view the latest contractual violations. A list of which hospitals are not paying exam fees, which are not paying overtime, and keep it constantly updated.
It's completely useless to set up a website saying positive stuff only. The things you need to know are:

Will you be trained and receive training support?
Will you be paid for hours worked?
Will you be worked illegally or will the EWTD be applied?
What is your rota like?
Is your hospital complying with contractual annual/study/conference leave requirements?

If you cannot find these things out from the website, it is useless.

resus

Fair enough, let's find out if such a website would be legal


if not, we get it hosted in Tonga !

Pastafarian

Wow glad someone liked one of my ideas for once! :P

But thinking about it a little more i too would be concerned about the legalities of it. I don't think you could say on a publicly accesible site that hosptial x forces srugical regs to work fri thru mon for example. It might cause a fuss ....thou then again maybe this is one way to effect change.
Sorry Jane I wouldn't have time to start that up as i already have some extracurriculars on my plate.


To be honest the more i think about it the more likely I am to walk. Just this week gone by whilst I am dangerously busy and getting harassed by nurses about basic stuff (for I am both sho and intern at the moment), whilst said nurse is getting during 9 to 5 working hours one to one teaching from a specialist nurse trainer a person about management of stiuation X using drugs a,b,c - stuff that i don't even know and would love to have some explain to me (hey and I'll settle for 1 to 10 teaching no need for one to one). Anyhow - I just thought.....NO. F**k this. Here I am trying to balance getting aggressively harassed over iv lines on the one hand - something my nursing colleague is well able to do whilst instead she sits there getting tutored - and on the otherhand trying to arrange vitally important treatment for patient 1 - the diverging needs of full filling two jobs at once literally requiring me to be in two places at once (or maybe three).....I just thought - nothing is worth this ****. I am not putting up with this level of stress on a daily basis. This crap WILL put me in an early grave. Oh and I'm not even gettting paid for all of it.

F-U-C-K T-H-A-T.
So i'm out. Its just a question of when and what next.

Nchd2010

I know this may not sit well with some here, but it does have to be mentioned that our remuneration both as NCHDs and subsequently if and when we become independent practitioners or consultants is significantly higher than in many other EU countries. Whilst training here is appalling in most specialties, making a personal contribution to further education is not unreasonable, and not out of line with many other professions.

I accept that working hours are onerous, and flouting of relevant legislation is widespread, however, as a 3rd year graduate, I am earning far in excess of most, if not all of my school classmates.

Also, someone earlier mentioned the notion of joining up with SIPTU. Surely ethically and morally we couldn't condone this..the public sector unions in this country are like the HSE, greedy, bloated and inefficient. SIPTU were and are quite willing to protect the "rights" of many workers in unskilled positions, with lifelong job security and favourable pension arrangements, such as hospital porters, who are earning far in excess of highly trained professionals (NCHDs) and causing a significant drain on HSE finances.

ORLY?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

as a 3rd year graduate, I am earning far in excess of most, if not all of my school classmates.

Per hour?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Also, someone earlier mentioned the notion of joining up with SIPTU. Surely ethically and morally we couldn't condone this..the public sector unions in this country are like the HSE, greedy, bloated and inefficient. SIPTU were and are quite willing to protect the "rights" of many workers in unskilled positions, with lifelong job security and favourable pension arrangements, such as hospital porters, who are earning far in excess of highly trained professionals (NCHDs) and causing a significant drain on HSE finances.

Agree with this.

Jane5

It is most certainly legal to state things like "hospital X makes SHOs work 60 hour straight shifts and is contravening EU law". Libel is a damaging lie, however, if it is the truth, then even if it is damaging, you can legally say it and not be sued.

Isn't it causing a fuss sort of the point here? You know, so we'll stop being treated like crap?

If we don't stop being so spineless, then we deserve everything we get.

And nurses in this country need to bloody well buck up and do what any student nurse in say, Kazakhstan, does as part of their normal job. Delaying provision of medical care to patients by tying up doctors with simple jobs that they can do and just refuse to, is a national disgrace, and tbh, should result in disciplinary action. The knock on effects of these ridiculous practices, such as FIRST DOSES, is enormous.

Pastafarian

Nchd2010 wrote: »

I know this may not sit well with some here, but it does have to be mentioned that our remuneration both as NCHDs and subsequently if and when we become independent practitioners or consultants is significantly higher than in many other EU countries. Whilst training here is appalling in most specialties, making a personal contribution to further education is not unreasonable, and not out of line with many other professions.

I accept that working hours are onerous, and flouting of relevant legislation is widespread, however, as a 3rd year graduate, I am earning far in excess of most, if not all of my school classmates.

Ok you are earning more because of the disgraceful conditions you are expected to put up with day to day which, doubtless, your school classmates do not and would not put up with. Its compensation. Or worse a bribe to get us to stay in the job and not walk away. I would happily work for less if they didn't work me illegal hours and actually trained me. Indeed the entire idea of overtime rates is to a) compensate the worker for excess hour and more importantly b) discourage the employer from overworking its employees. Personally speaking I would gladly sacrifice some income for actual training and legal working conditions - I know many others feel the same.

Also, someone earlier mentioned the notion of joining up with SIPTU. Surely ethically and morally we couldn't condone this..the public sector unions in this country are like the HSE, greedy, bloated and inefficient. SIPTU were and are quite willing to protect the "rights" of many workers in unskilled positions, with lifelong job security and favourable pension arrangements, such as hospital porters, who are earning far in excess of highly trained professionals (NCHDs) and causing a significant drain on HSE finances.

I largely agree with this. Joining siptu not a great idea. I think speaking with our feet is a better option.

Jane5 wrote: »

It is most certainly legal to state things like "hospital X makes SHOs work 60 hour straight shifts and is contravening EU law". Libel is a damaging lie, however, if it is the truth, then even if it is damaging, you can legally say it and not be sued.

Indeed. A fair point. I guess its about being able to prove things. I also feel thou - HSE is a large beast - if you piss it off it might stomp on you. I think it would not be wise to publish such info unless doing it anonymously. I guess the options are anonymous website or finding an interested journalist somewhere. Indeed consultants may not like it either - since some of them are also strongly opposed to the EWTD. I had a conversation with one recently on this that was both very revealing and shocking as regards their attitude on this, but I'd best keep that to myself.

Isn't it causing a fuss sort of the point here? You know, so we'll stop being treated like crap?

If we don't stop being so spineless, then we deserve everything we get.

hmmm fair point.

And nurses in this country need to bloody well buck up and do what any student nurse in say, Kazakhstan, does as part of their normal job. Delaying provision of medical care to patients by tying up doctors with simple jobs that they can do and just refuse to, is a national disgrace, and tbh, should result in disciplinary action. The knock on effects of these ridiculous practices, such as FIRST DOSES, is enormous.

To be fair to the nurses - many of them are also frustrated by this type of thing as they have to wait for a doctor to get **** done. They are not allowed to do many things they are well able to do on account of their own union rules and nursing admin. This is stuff the IMO should have been fighting against for along time, but its yet another thing they ignore.

Jane5

About the HSE being a large beast and stomping on you:

Was thinking about that today, and a couple of things occurred to me.

1)If the conditions and training are so bad that one was going to leave anyway-then who cares how pissed off they are?

2) The HSE knows damn well if they ruin any doctors career over speaking out about anything, that that doctor, knowing full well they no longer have anything to lose, would become such a massive thorn in their side that attempting to remove it would cause torrential haemorrhage. Including going public about the career ruination, with naming and shaming of ALL parties involved, and legal action and litigation for loss of earnings as well as for breach of contract and illegal working conditions. I don't think the HSE are that stupid. They don't like fixing problems, to be sure, but damage control and PR are their major areas.

Nchd2010

Pastafarian wrote: »

Ok you are earning more because of the disgraceful conditions you are expected to put up with day to day which, doubtless, your school classmates do not and would not put up with. Its compensation. Or worse a bribe to get us to stay in the job and not walk away. I would happily work for less if they didn't work me illegal hours and actually trained me.

I agree to an extent, but I think many medics seem to think we have the hardest job in the world. We don't. It pisses me of tremendously to think of the money overpaid porters, "medical manpower "managers"" and various HSE types bring home, and no doubt they do have an easier time than us. However, there's almost half a million unemployed and the country is bankrupt. Many of my medical school classmates drive new or nearly new BMWs, Mercs, S2000s etc. None of my school classmates do (then again I wasn't privately educated). Our job as doctors, even in the bleakest moments enables us to provide solace and comfort to the sick and afflicted which is a tremendous privilege in itself.

With regards to improving the situation, I'm not sure what can be done. I'm no apologist for the IMO, but I really don't think that those who give of their time freely to act as hospital reps etc are part of a HSE conspiracy or indeed are blind to such a conspiracy going on over their heads.

Just a few thoughts:
1 Why is it that the cleaning staff are private employees, are the porters, similarly unskilled manual workers are in the employ of the HSE in safe jobs on ridiculous money, with pensions and generous sick leave allowances

2 Why do radiographers get paid an overtime rate AND a service rate on call eg in at least 2 teaching hospitals, I know for a fact that radiographers were paid €200 for performing CT scans on call. With further generous allowances for more advanced CTs (ie giving a bit of contrast). Why does no-one in the media care about this. In fairness, setting up a scan isn't really all that onerous or skilled a task

3 RemedyUK seem to be a very forward thinking and sensible group...but what have they really achieved? Can we as doctors get more involved, speak out on healthcare inequities, and adequately perform our role as advocates for a better society, either within the IMO or some other grouping. And can we do this without endless reference to pay and money (conditions and training are fair game though)

4 Am I an idiot for wanting to train, work and care for the people of Ireland given the sorry state of our "health" service? Why amn't I in Oz?

ORLY?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Many of my medical school classmates drive new or nearly new BMWs, Mercs, S2000s etc.

There's no accounting for taste.

I have three questions for you. Were these cars bought with their own money of family money?

If bought with their wage, is it because they are overpaid or because they work nearly two working weeks per week?

You said you were better paid than all of your friends in other areas, what areas are they in and do you make more per hour worked?

Nchd2010

Accounting, Engineering, public sector, some sort of money/fund management bollox, teaching. Probably not a huge amount of difference in hourly rate tbh.

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

In fairness, we all also know of jobs in certain hospitals, where call can consist of sitting in the res for the weekend and not really doing an awful lot...I know that even the presence of a doctor in the building is a valuable service for the HSE but still...

Most would have bought cars with own money including overtime, but in fairness, there are people in strictly salaried jobs in the private sector who work fairly hefty overtime with no recompense.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Accounting, Engineering, public sector, some sort of money/fund management bollox, teaching. Probably not a huge amount of difference in hourly rate tbh.

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

You are working over twice the recommended maximum hours for a training doctor in the EU. Work out your net hourly wage for that week based on the 108 hours, and tell me if you feel so warm and nice inside about being able to pick up a few extra hours of overtime.

Nchd2010

That seems a bit cynical. All I'm saying is there's people much worse off than doctors. This evening, I'm tired, pissed off, and feel like I haven't had any time off in weeks. I'm definitely not saying it's good to pick up overtime for financial reasons. But I'm earning more now in my early 20's than my Dad did at any stage in his working life, doing a job that though sometimes (frequently) frustrating and depressing, is a job I have always wanted to do, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. We are lucky.

A close friend is in negative equity and was made redundant over a year ago. With no prospects in her chosen industry, I'm sure she'd find it a bit sickening to hear me complaining about having too much work.

In the real world, where many doctors from privileged middle-class backgrounds have no experience of, things are an awful lot worse.

I remember in the first few days of medical school, a lecturer trying to find out why each of us had chosen a career in medicine. No-one suggested money, (honestly though, this was a factor -a small one- for me) we need to all realise our job is wonderful, and can be extremely satisfying, and the money we are paid and the conditions we work in whilst frustrating and incomprehensible are adequate.

Why not try and improve things in a positive way? The training grant is gone, salaries will be cut further...we just have to get used to it.

resus

Problem being, no matter how altruistic we are, there are better deals elsewhere and even altruistic people HAVE, migrated towards better terms & conditions, training, money, quality of life etc. This is not a reflection on the individual doctors who just want to provide a quality service to their patients, weighted up against quality of personal life, and will seek out systems in which to do so.

The HSE has got is spectacularly wrong. We have A&E departments on the brink of closure, theatre slots shut down, patient care compromised all down to lack of NCHDs. This is a direct consequence of undervaluing our services AGAINST international market forces. Like it or not, this is reality.

This country is desperate for doctors. You get what you pay for. And pay is NOT just about money, because funnily enough, I am actually satisfied with my take home pay. What I'm NOT happy with is the piss poor working conditions and piss poor conditions of our hospitals where patients are literally dying needlessly. I'm not happy about lack of training opportunities and career progression, I'm not happy about terms & conditions of service.

Pastafarian

Ok so NCHD2010, you posted so many things that are just plain wrong I feel I have to take you to task. Incidentally are you really an NCHD ?

Whilst training here is appalling in most specialties, making a personal contribution to further education is not unreasonable, and not out of line with many other professions.

I've worked in other private sector professions. I had money thrown at me for training. Courses, degrees you name it they wanted to give it to me. Its one way of retaining staff - which is something the HSE doesn't have to worry about since we are all on 6 or 1 year month contracts. See what people, including you, fail to realise is that 'private sector' is a lot broader in scope than public sector. Private sector includes small, medium and large organisations. By and large most medium to large organisations are happy to financially aid staff in further training. Small organisations are not really a relevant comparison to the HSE.

I accept that working hours are onerous, and flouting of relevant legislation is widespread, however, as a 3rd year graduate, I am earning far in excess of most, if not all of my school classmates.

So its about money then for you?

I agree to an extent, but I think many medics seem to think we have the hardest job in the world.

I don't think that. Thou I agree many medics do think that. I've had worse jobs. But every single one of those worse jobs had better working conditions than being a doctor does - by a wide wide margin.

However, there's almost half a million unemployed and the country is bankrupt. Many of my medical school classmates drive new or nearly new BMWs, Mercs, S2000s etc. None of my school classmates do (then again I wasn't privately educated). Our job as doctors, even in the bleakest moments enables us to provide solace and comfort to the sick and afflicted which is a tremendous privilege in itself.

BMW's mercs s2000s. So again we are onto money. Also if you are so worried about the unemployed would it not make more sense for you, your sho's and interns to work less and for the HSE to hire in some people to do the task you waste your time doing like fetching xrays and phlebotomy ?

I know none of us want to work quite so much overtime (I've been working the past three weekends on call and worked 108 hours last week) but there's a lot of people out there who would love the opportunity to work a bit of overtime. Medicine, nursing, portering and the gardai are really the only places where overtime is tolerated in the current economy.

Based on ?? And I guarantee you no-one but no-one wants to work 108 hours a week. If you chose to convince yourself thats in anyway aceptable then don't cast that acceptance on to the rest of us please. Honestly the double-think apparent in your above quote is just palpable. (Note this denial is evidence of your upcoming diagnosis ).

In fairness, we all also know of jobs in certain hospitals, where call can consist of sitting in the res for the weekend and not really doing an awful lot...I know that even the presence of a doctor in the building is a valuable service for the HSE but still...

Oh....I am REALLY glad you said this. I hear docs say this sometimes and it makes my blood boil. This is what 'ON CALL' is supposed to be! It is supposed to mean you are on site waiting for your services if needed, resting when you have opporunity to be ready for action. It is not suppossed to be running around like a headless chicken doing a million things - it IS NOT supposed to be a continuation of your day job. Now I should say - I've done on call from home in previous jobs in private sector industry. Most nights I took one or two phone calls. Rarely did I have to actually go in. I went to work the next day rested and able to function - tey would not have let me near the really really expensive equipment otherwise. 'On call' IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE a continuation of your day job. ESPECIALLY when you are working the next day. EVEN MORE ESPECIALLY when live hang in the balance. In no other job is one expected to work as hard 'on call' as one is during the day. And in no other job is one expected to continue to work thru the next day or several days. Now you may justify this however you want (again symptoms of your diagnosis) but the bottom line is this: we are duty bound to come to work sufficiently rested to do our job (just as we are duty bound to come to work sober). If you work all night and day and all weekend you ARE doing your patients a disservice, no matter how much of a superman/superwoman you think you are. If you don't object then you are giving approval to the system.

Most would have bought cars with own money including overtime, but in fairness, there are people in strictly salaried jobs in the private sector who work fairly hefty overtime with no recompense.

Again, cars, money. This justifies working dangerous hours does it ? You see I object more about the hours we work not because I don't like it - I don't. But more because it IS NOT SAFE. I cannot abide it. So I am left with the choie to either rebel or quit. At least if I locum I can dictate my own terms and only work ethically sound hours.

That seems a bit cynical. All I'm saying is there's people much worse off than doctors. This evening, I'm tired, pissed off, and feel like I haven't had any time off in weeks. I'm definitely not saying it's good to pick up overtime for financial reasons. But I'm earning more now in my early 20's than my Dad did at any stage in his working life, doing a job that though sometimes (frequently) frustrating and depressing, is a job I have always wanted to do, and I couldn't see myself doing anything else. We are lucky.

Again money. Also - woudl you feel so happy about it if you were ten years older and were missing your kids growing up cause you work so much ? Not all who work these hours are young free and single. THere are more perspectives than your own.

In the real world, where many doctors from privileged middle-class backgrounds have no experience of, things are an awful lot worse.

Please. Not all docs come from same background. Not all have the same outlook.

I remember in the first few days of medical school, a lecturer trying to find out why each of us had chosen a career in medicine. No-one suggested money, (honestly though, this was a factor -a small one- for me) we need to all realise our job is wonderful, and can be extremely satisfying, and the money we are paid and the conditions we work in whilst frustrating and incomprehensible are adequate.

You know for someone who isn't motivated by money you sure talk about it an awful lot. Let me say this - I WILL take a pay cut for improved, safe working conditions. As will/have all of our colleagues who have gone to Oz or the US. Will you take a pay cut to implement changes? Cause you sure seem happy to stay with the status quo.

Why not try and improve things in a positive way? The training grant is gone, salaries will be cut further...we just have to get used to it.

Are you for real ? See its comments like this that make me think you are working for the HSE or something. We don't have to get used to it - not at all.


And so, I was discussin all this with a like minded colleague recntly and he came up with a diagnosis for docs like you. You are suffrering from Stockholm syndrome (either that or you've allowed yourself to be bought off and are in denial). You have come to identify with your abducters. You have such strong case that even thou they now leave the door open for you to come and go as you please you love them for the security they provide. But it may not be too late for you - you just have to be really brave


Incidentally I'm on a day off. Wahts your excuse for having time to post here ?

Prime Mover

You might be fine with the current situation as someone in their early twenties, probably unmarried, no kids, lots of disposable income.

In ten years time when you still won't be a consultant and will be reapplying for a job every six months, trying to find time for your family, and realising that that many of your friends now completely out-earn you on a per hour basis and in work-life balance, you might not be so positive.

Also, any decent company will cover your training costs. Successful companies invest in their staff.

Jane5

NCHD2010,
Nobody believes for a minute that you are a real NCHD, honey. Are you a HSE plant?

The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc.

So we will have to get used to our training being effectively abolished, and our salaries cut unilaterally huh? I might respectfully suggest to anyone who holds that view that they should blow it out their ass.

You are being very irresponsible advocating acceptance of crap/no training, and ever deteriorating work conditions. You see, poorly trained, exhausted, morale depleted, depressed ill doctors make mistakes and kill people. And don't even try that "it's a vocation" crap, that line has been long used by management pricks to try to justify forcing horrendous and ILLEGAL working conditions on young doctors who have no proper union to defend their interests.

Sycophantic masochistic doctors like you, (if that is what you are) who not only accept the crap but openly advocate that if it should be worse that we should take it are one of the reasons that healthcare is so crap in this country.

You maintain an unhealthy status quo that sees pregnant NCHDs forced to work 60 hour shifts and miscarry.

You maintain a status quo that sees NCHDs killed on the roads every year from fatigue and falling asleep at the wheel. And patients harmed by being treated by exhausted doctors who are not even fit to drive a car, but are forced to staff a hospital without sleep or meal breaks for often days and nights on end.

You maintain a status quo where training is so poor and so difficult to obtain that mistakes are made, and lack of skills and knowledge cause patients to suffer.

You maintain a status quo that sees hundreds of NCHDs emigrate despite wishing to stay in Ireland, after being educated at considerable taxpayer expense.

You maintain a status quo that accepts that hospitals are so poorly staffed that NCHDs work over 100 hours a week routinely, and suffer ill health effects from it, while patients suffer and yes, often die because of delays in medical care.

I could go on, but I am too angry. Grow up, if you are actually a doctor, and become responsible.

Shame on you.

Nchd2010

I ADMIT IT!!! I'M A HSE PLANT!!

For all those complaining about our world class provision of healthcare, prepare to be renditioned to Guantanamo post haste.

No.

I'm not. If you really think that the "health" service has nothing better to do than spy on whinging doctors then...

Let me clarify. I think provision of training is poor in this country. However I have spent about €12,000 of my own cash doing a masters, and believe its only reasonable that we make some sort of financial contribution to our training. Lets be honest, the previous system was wide open to abuse, and if we’re not blind or stupid, all of us will be aware colleague nefariously claiming money from the grant.

For example in the law profession, barristers spend years devilling for little or no money, often subsisting on part time jobs unrelated to their career. Many other professionals spend significant sums on higher training and extra qualifications.

Those companies “throwing money” at poor pastafarian (i hope it wasn’t coins, that might have hurt) were almost certainly not on the brink of bankruptcy, attempting to provide an essential service to a growing population with little or no funds and extremely high rates of inflation. Also, in the private sector, performace and outcome is monitored. I’ve worked with many doctors who are substandard in the past year. One doctor I know was working in an emergency department, and managed to fail an ACLS course, which takes a lot tbf. Such inadequacy would simply not be tolerated in the private sector.

“you, fail to realise is that 'private sector' is a lot broader in scope than public sector”. Now this is just petty. There really is no need to intimate that I don’t have the intellectual capacity to understand economics. I do. And I understand the hardship many people are undergoing having fallen into redundancy. In these straitened times many large companies have cut back dramatically on training expenditure. This is a fact.

“Successful companies invest in their staff” –Prime Mover. Unsuccessful, incompetent companies simply can’t.

Let me answer a few other points:

1. It’s not all about money for me. Don’t know how anyone got this impression. I might be mistaken, but I think I’m the only poster on this thread who consistently referred to the enjoyment and sense of fulfillment to be found in the practice of medicine. Coming from a working class background, unlike many of my colleagues, means that I know the value of money. I don’t make money my master though. If I did, I wouldn’t be in medicine.

2. “if you are so worried about the unemployed would it not make more sense for you, your sho's and interns to work less and for the HSE to hire in some people to do the task you waste your time doing like fetching xrays and phlebotomy ?”. This is silly. I referenced the unemployed to make the point that the country is bust. Bankrupt. Insolvent. The salutary tale of Depfa and Hypo Real Estate shows just how close we were to defaulting on our sovereign debt. This threat has not gone away. Employing, training and providing pensions and ancillary benefits for such staff (who are largely unnecessary) does not make economic sense.

3. I’m well aware that call is not an extension of the day job. However it simply does not make sense to have highly skilled and educated young people sitting around watching telly in the res. My point is that we should really be agitating for a genuine 24/7 health service, with most doctors working shifts. Obviously buy-in from allied healthcare professionals is a major stumbling block at present. There is however clear potential for such a system which would reduce working hours, waiting times, provide training and good quality care. Which tbf is better than some doctors sitting on their arse watching telly while others are working like dogs.

4. I’ve never said anything justifies working dangerous hours and I don’t agree with it. I know how easy it is to nod off driving home, or driving to the other end of the country for lectures and I’ve been scared ****less sometimes.

5. “Not all who work these hours are young free and single. THere are more perspectives than your own.” Everyone has a choice. Everyday we make them. There is opportunity cost with every decision we make. We can’t have everything. I’d love to be a cardiothoracic surgeon, but I’ve shifted my focus to another area of medicine because the opportunity cost was too great.

6. “We don't have to get used to it - not at all.” We do. Our pay will be cut further. The economy is failing. What we can do is try to make things better within the medical community. Ask your consultant for a tutorial…don’t go to the res and watch telly-teach your junior doctor something.

7. “You are suffrering from Stockholm syndrome”. Thanks. I’m not suffering from anything of the sort. I know that the HSE is incompetent, bloated and inefficient. I do try to make a difference. However, I really don’t think I deserve any more money than I earn. Nor do many other doctors. Particularly in the current economic climate.

8. “Not all docs come from same background. Not all have the same outlook.” True. But medicine is dominated by the middle classes with an unjustified sense of entitlement. At the IMO rallies in 2008 when the HSE made an effort to make genuine cuts to NCHD pay, a common attitude expressed was “but I’ve got a mortgage to pay”

9. “Wahts your excuse for having time to post here ?” I had a few quiet hours on Saturday night and made a few posts on Sunday, my day off.

10. The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc." The SpRs in your department are earning, at the very least, €65k gross. Realistically, about €80k. If buying a fancy car was their priority, they could comfortably afford it. Trust me.

11. I'm not maintaining any status quo. I'm actively involved in trying to improve training and conditions, mainly at a local level. However i really believe that whinging about money and training grants when the country is bankrupt and patients are dying for the lack of appropriate investment will not help anyone.

Seriously guys, I am a doctor. A conscientious one. Talk to your consultants about your concerns. I'm usually on first name terms with most of the consultants I have worked for and have had rows with several with regard to training and remuneration issues. Most really want the best for their colleagues and understand the position.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

10. "10. The line about juniors driving Beamers one or two years out of med school made us laugh when we read it. The two SpRs in my dept drive a ten year old Skoda and an 8 year old Nissan Micra respectively. My car is a whopping 13 years old, and it sure ain't a Beamer or a Merc." The SpRs in your department are earning, at the very least, €65k gross. Realistically, about €80k. If buying a fancy car was their priority, they could comfortably afford it. Trust me.

I am not sure how you managed to pay €12000 of your net income for a Masters. That would be around €20k of a yearly gross income on an average NCHD wage of €80k or so.

With regard to those €80k salaries, the net income is €1747 every two weeks. I know because that is what I got - roughly €3700/month. That is the peak salary that 90% of Irish doctors will get to, as only 10% will ever get a consultant post in ireland. Most of the time, they will get to that salary for 1-2 years, and then emigrate.

Nchd2010

€1747 a fortnight isn't really too shabby in all fairness.

I'm not sure why you're surprised at paying €12k for a masters. €6k a year in two installments.

Hypothetically, if i had bought a house in the boom, mortgage €1000 pcm, car loan say €600 pcm, living expenses €1000pcm. Still leaves a fair bit of money for sundries. Also if I was any way organised, i could claim about 20% back in tax relief at the standard rate. Must get around to that.

ThatDrGuy

Ive been reading this with interest. Your a year 3 Graduate with a Masters ?? When did you do it ? After your intern year ? Hardly part of your training if you do it before you have started your career. First name basis with your consultant ? Unless his first name is DR i doubt it.

Some points:
Lawyers get to go home at night. So does essentially every other employed person in the country.

Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law. That is quite a unique condition of employment.

Overtime is not a gift. Nurses/Porters/Pharmacists do overtime indeed, voluntary overtime largely. NCHD overtime is mandatory.

As for money and the private industry. I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital. They are paying the market price for a doctor. The HSE is paying far below market price under the guise of "training".

As for money. Don't get me started. Have you any idea how much money the HSE wastes each year ?? Its astronomical. They managed to spend 32 million euro last year to rent empty buildings ! http://www.independent.ie/national-news/firesale-of-vacant-hse-sites-to-fund-mental-health-reform-2106642.html

They hire lawyers to try and hide the amount of children who died in care from the Children's Ombudsman. They hire spin doctors and industry consultants at hundreds of euro an hour. These people are criminally negligent.

The loss of all educational funding is a massive blow. They had to cancel the last ACLS at my hospital because no one signed up.

As for money. I would happily take a 50% pay cut if I had the same working conditions I had when I was in NZ.(Going back there next year - can't wait). There isnt enough money in the word to compensate me for the exhaustion,stress,destruction of social life and horror of working for those gob****es.

There are plenty of sub par doctors out there. Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things.

Lastly the country is indeed bust. Things are going to get a lot worse for any doctor employed by the HSE. They will happily work you to death before they will do anything pro-active about fixing the rot that lies within.

Nchd2010

"Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law." What?

"NCHD overtime is mandatory." If you want to work within the EWTD do so. If any disciplinary action is taken, you'll have a strong case. You'll win. A colleague of mine is unilaterally doing such a thing.

"I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital". Of course you can. The opportunity cost is that your career progression will be hampered.

Did part time masters during first and second SHO years. 24 weekends per year + research project.

You're right in your opinion of the HSE though. They are a right shower. But my main point is that NCHDs are relatively well remunerated.

"Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things". Sacking them and closing small, dangerous hospitals whilst upgrading larger hospitals will though. There is scope for this with a bit of thought and imagination.

dissed doc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

€1747 a fortnight isn't really too shabby in all fairness.

I'm not sure why you're surprised at paying €12k for a masters. €6k a year in two installments.

Hypothetically, if i had bought a house in the boom, mortgage €1000 pcm, car loan say €600 pcm, living expenses €1000pcm. Still leaves a fair bit of money for sundries. Also if I was any way organised, i could claim about 20% back in tax relief at the standard rate. Must get around to that.

Tax relief on what exactly? Magic beans? There is no "20% back in tax relief at the standard rate".

If you bought a house in the boom and are paying €1000/month you also must have one of the magic houses next to the magic hospitals. Most jobs are in Dublin, where a "house during the boom" was €300+, closer to €400k for an average price in Dublin. Try closer to €1500. The sort of person that thinks 16%+ of you income is suitable for a CAR LOAN?????

Are you mad? That is the worst financial planning ever. None of what you are suggesting reflects reality. Your €600/month car loan - don't forget and extra €50/month for road tax, and an extra €125/month for insurance (assuming you are male and under 30, driving a car under 2 litres). Your car costs alone are now €775/month, without even maintenance or even PETROL to put in it. Suddenly, over 20% of monthly income is gone just to have a car on your driveway in your world, and this makes sense to you????

REALLY? Even at a coservative estimate of €200/month on petrol (that is probably low considering the €1000/month boom house you bought 100km outside of Dublin), your car costs on a < 2 litre car, for an under 30 year old driver, average monthly petrol for commuting, puts it at over 26.5% of net monthly income. Let's ignore tyres and servicing which would add another €50/month over a year assuming nothing goes wrong.

If these are what you are realy suggesting, I think you are likely a university student and not actually paying bills, because you seem to be forgetting all the costs around it and looking at "mortgage" "car loan", but oblivious to all the associated costs.

sam34

dissed doc wrote: »

With regard to those €80k salaries, the net income is €1747 every two weeks. I know because that is what I got - roughly €3700/month. That is the peak salary that 90% of Irish doctors will get to, as only 10% will ever get a consultant post in ireland. Most of the time, they will get to that salary for 1-2 years, and then emigrate.

i'm on 4th year SR salary and i dont get 1747 net. i think you're calculating that before cuts/levies etc

dissed doc

sam34 wrote: »

i'm on 4th year SR salary and i dont get 1747 net. i think you're calculating that before cuts/levies etc

Well it may have dropped more as it's a while since I was there. From what I have been told, it's now in the €1600/fortnight. range. AGain, not a totally bad salary, but seeing as it takes around 12 years since starting college to get it, there are more attractive options financially in medicine abroad.

SleepDoc

Nchd2010 wrote: »

"Only in the medical profession can you be dismissed from your job for refusing to break the law." What?

"NCHD overtime is mandatory." If you want to work within the EWTD do so. If any disciplinary action is taken, you'll have a strong case. You'll win. A colleague of mine is unilaterally doing such a thing.

"I can go out tomorrow and make multiples of my salary working in a private hospital". Of course you can. The opportunity cost is that your career progression will be hampered.

Did part time masters during first and second SHO years. 24 weekends per year + research project.

You're right in your opinion of the HSE though. They are a right shower. But my main point is that NCHDs are relatively well remunerated.

"Depriving them of education funds and study leave isnt going to improve things". Sacking them and closing small, dangerous hospitals whilst upgrading larger hospitals will though. There is scope for this with a bit of thought and imagination.

We are not well remunerated. A dentist 2 years out of college will earn about 75k (and they do, I have friends on that amount). I think a 4th year SPR does a much more important, skilled and stressful job and does'nt get that.

Your attitude is essentially one of "c'est la vie". It is attitudes like yours that force your more proactive and less obsequious colleagues away. You're welcome to the health service that remains.

Nchd2010

Tax relief on what exactly? Magic beans?

That's a bit juvenile. I fail to see how you didn't know I was referring to tax relief on university fees

I didn't buy a house during the boom, cos I actually understand the value of money. A bag of sand a month would comfortably service a €250k mortgage when mortgage interest tax relief is taken into account. Most sensible people wouldn't have bought a house on one income...either buying with a spouse/partner or renting out a room or two. So with a reasonable deposit, it really isn't that much of a stretch to buy a reasonably good house in a decent area. Really if you can't service a mortgage on little under a third of net income then the mortgage is subprime and one should have had the sense not to do it.

Clearly I also didn't buy a fancy car and don't have a car loan of €600pcm. These are kind of back of a fag packet figures taken off the top of my head, to illustrate what one could easily do on a salary of almost €3.5kpcm.

n

extra €125/month for insurance (assuming you are male and under 30, driving a car under 2 litres

Now that is a phenomenal insurance policy. i don't pay anything like that. If you like, pay me €300, and I'll get you a much cheaper fully comp quote for your insurance, presuming you're like the others who don't like driving fancy cars. Though if you've a load of penalty points or have crashed a lot, I may have slight difficulty. But I doubt it. Tax should come in at less than €300 if you drive any kind of a sensible car.

As you can see I've left €250 a week for living expenses. That should comfortably cover petrol etc. Well it would for me. But I don't have a particularly expensive or flashy lifestyle.

Dissed doc, I didn't mention those figures as an example of prudent financial management, rather as an illustration of what one could do on what is a fairly good salary. My financial affairs are in fact far more sound and if I wanted to, without touching savings for a house deposit etc, I could easily buy a newish A5 or similar car for cash. Not that I would. But I could.

My attitude is definitely not "c'est la vie" but I really think there are more important things to be proactive about than our remuneration. Such as training, career progression and hours of work.

Incidentally, some dentists may well earn in the region of €75k, but there were dentists in my class in college who after some years in practice had decided medicine was a better option and earned nowhere near that kind of money. Also many dentists are independent practitioners and work for themselves. I'm sure if I was an independent practitioner doing locum work I could easily double that. Without working particularly long hours.

ORLY?

Nchd2010 wrote: »

Tax should come in at less than €300 if you drive any kind of a sensible car.

Not true. Certainly not with a car more than 2 years old.

Nchd2010

Well in fairness, it's around €350 for a reasonable sized engine from what I recall. Haven't paid it in a few months. Certainly nowhere near €600 unless you're driving a 1.8-2.0 litre. Which is kind of wasteful environmentally and financially tbf.