Government recommended to toll National Roads & more

spockety

Well this should go down well.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/0723/breaking2.html

"The merging of local authority management, an extension of toll charges to national roads and extra levies on those who do not pay their motor tax online are among a series of proposals aimed at saving over €500 million in the State’s 34 local authorities."

Looks like they are also doing away with the "off the road" exemption for Motor Tax. So unless it's scrapped, you pay Tax on it whether it's driven or not.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Well, I may as well be first to say it but that's bullsh!t!

Do they want to drive people off the National roads and onto the terrible regional roads?

helimachoptor

If they approve this i'm going to truck bomb the Dail

mike65

Hilarious. How are they going to achieve such without issuing a sort of "N-Road" pass charged annually? The reason you can toll motorways is cos the tolls are hard to avoid and doing so negates some of the advantages of using said road, with N roads dodging would be quite easy for car users certainly. Where would this leave locals who use the nearest N road for access to the chruch on Sunday for example? Won't someone think of the God fearing?

Iron Hide

Christ next thing people will be paying tolls for walking on the bloody footpaths!

um7y1h83ge06nx

The group has also recommended that tolling charges be extended from motorways to national roads. It has argued this would be consistent with Government policy on the environment by incentivising road users to use other transport. It would also allow a stream of revenue for local councils to invest in local roads.

Other transport? Our public transport infrastructure is crap! Looks like the Greens still have clout! :mad:

While the group has said the distribution of the tolling booths should be equitable, placing them on national roads as well as motorways would be seen as controversial and politically unpopular.

No sh*t Sherlock.

mike65

I'd say some booths in certain counties would last a weekend before "elements" blew them up.

peasant

Mr O'Loughlin said the new tolls ...could prove to be good for the environment.

Now I've heard it all

Cookie_Monster

who comes up with this sort of thing?

Cionád

Kaysen Breezy Bikini wrote: »

Do they want to drive people off the National roads and onto the terrible regional roads?

Not to mention paying for terrible National roads, the N5 through Roscommon would be a joke to pay for!

I can't see it ever happening, rural TD's will see this as suicide.

Cionád

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

who comes up with this sort of thing?

# Chairperson
Mr. Pat McLoughlin, Business Consultant
# Membership
Professor John O'Hagan, Department of Economics, Trinity College
Mr. Ian Talbot, Chief Executive, Chambers Ireland
Ms. Geraldine Tallon, Secretary General, Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government
Mr. Donal McNally, Second Secretary General, Department of Finance
Mr. John Quinlivan, Former County Manager

yom 1

You've just got to love this country. A group are tasked with finding savings of €500m and instead of actually doing that, they say just tax more roads.:rolleyes:

um7y1h83ge06nx

mike65 wrote: »

I'd say some booths in certain counties would last a weekend before "elements" blew them up.

True. Back in the area I grew up they tried to blow up and knock a mobile phone mast a few years back, the locals were protesting against it. Imagine what would happen to a toll booth there!

voxpop

These are all just proposals from some new committee - they even said that tolling national roads was just an idea and they have no idea if or how it would be implemented.

They also mentioned charging ppl a "handling" charge if you dont renew your motor tax online - which is ridiculous.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Fianna Fail and the Greens, they're such tyrants we'd probably be better off having the Tans back.

itarumaa

Hard to see the point in here, now tolling works quite ok.

If you want to save time, you take the motorway and pay and if you don´t want to pay, then there are N-roads.

Paying toll for National road sounds utterly crazy.

furtzy

Surely they couldn't toll roads that have been paid for out of tax payers money or worse paid for by EU grants

Owen

What's more hilarious is that they're going to charge people more money for being good citizens and paying their tax if they don't know how to use a computer and go online to do it.

Hi, I'm the Government, and you're a motorist. Bend over, spread your cheeks because I'm going to rape you. Repeatedly.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Calming down now slightly I'm thinking won't this, if it is introduced, probably increase road deaths?

People will use regional roads over national roads. These have 80 km/h limits but people will try and make their journeys in the same time and do 100 km/h + on these roads. And obviously a lot of these roads are terrible, pot-holed, bendy.

Would love to hear the RSA response to this, which will probably be nothing at all.

peasant

The reason why we pay for motorways (and the M50 bridge) is because they were built under private-public partnership and the private investors want their money back (and then some).

N-roads have already been paid for ...by the public.

Riskymove

This wont happen

In all these 'reports' there is always one or two items simply designed to cause uproar so when they dont implement them we are relieved and happy with the Government.....see recent 'rumours' about property tax and water charges

on radio this morning the chair of group was asked if it was actually legal to toll existing roads....he had no idea and just muttered soemthing about 'giving a menu of options to Government'.......where have I heard that phrase before?.....oh yes An Bord Snip Nua......

You've just got to love this country. A group are tasked with finding savings of €500m and instead of actually doing that, they say just tax more roads.

tbf they have identified a long list of other significant options which are badly needed including reorganisation of staffing within local authorites etc

seamus

Yep, there's no way they can go ahead with tolling national roads. Not within this Government's lifetime at least. Freight transportation would be crippled.

ThisRegard

Could the thread title be changed ? The government have approved nothing, they're just recommendations put forward to the government. And if they were to try implement it, they'd run into a lot of legal hassle because of existing right of ways etc.

Less of the tabloid sensationalist type of reporting.

mike65

Talking aboput the right now on RTE, a flaw has already been pointed out - you have to have a non-tolled alternative to a Motorway. Conor Faulknan notes that a penny/cent on fuel would achieve same.

um7y1h83ge06nx

May as well get the knives out to prevent this happening.

I sent an email to AA Ireland stating that this could result in more road deaths if introduced (due to people using regional roads over tolled national roads) and sent them a link to this discussion.

mb1725

Looks like the recession ain't over by a long chalk! This is all part of the present Fianna Fail and Green PR machine. They've been doing this for quite a while, throw out these ideas and if nobody complains then fine. If there's uproar then they row back a bit to look like the good guys. I'm beginning to think the politicians think we are as stupid as they are! :cool:

I cant help wondering how much the local authorities would save by abolishing the town councils with paid mayors, councillors, expense accounts et al?

Atomic Pineapple

After reading this I had to check to make sure it wasn't the 1st of April.

Crazy crazy stuff to be coming out with.

whiterebel

Some of these "Experts" really are laughable. The idiot from the NRA was talking a couple of years ago about tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel......until it was pointed out to him that it was majority funded by the EU, when he eventually shut up about it. Same rules will apply to National roads.....any of them funded with EU money cannot be charged for.

Cionád

Jackie Healey Ray giving out about the proposal, he's good for something!

edit - actually Michael

mb1725

whiterebel wrote: »

Some of these "Experts" really are laughable. The idiot from the NRA was talking a couple of years ago about tolling the Jack Lynch Tunnel......until it was pointed out to him that it was majority funded by the EU, when he eventually shut up about it. Same rules will apply to National roads.....any of them funded with EU money cannot be charged for.

They discovered that in Watergrasshill when the M8 toll was introduced and extended to part of the road provided under EU funds. An alternative (non-tolled) route had to be provided.

monkeypants

Their toll proposal is bull****, mainly for the reason that peasant has mentioned above.

Now the extra levy for not paying tax online I don't understand. A private company, for example Vodafone or UPC, may charge a small levy if not paying by direct debit to cover the admin required in processing other types of payments. However, the people behind the desks in the Motor office are already paid for by you. And if you charge a second time for the privilege, there'll have to be some job losses in said office.

Maybe some of the money saved could be used to buy John Gormley a spine?

As for councils, I see a saving to be made straight away.

While no reduction in number is envisaged for the 29 county councils and the five city councils, the group recommends far-reaching changes in organisational structures.

Anyone know why we have 29 county councils to cover 26 counties?

Cookie_Monster

monkeypants wrote: »

Anyone know why we have 29 county councils to cover 26 counties?

DLRCoCo
Fingal
south Dublin CoCo


I'm sure there are another few spare ones around, split in Cork maybe?

there should simply be 4 local authorities.
Ulster
Munster
Leinster
Connaght

And additional ones for the 5 main cities. They are just needless and expensive duplication to have so many. I'm sure that would go along way towards the 500m savings...

Riskymove

monkeypants wrote: »

However, the people behind the desks in the Motor office are already paid for by you. And if you charge a second time for the privilege, there'll have to be some job losses in said office.

I think that's the idea, the more people that use online, the less people needed sat in the office

As for councils, I see a saving to be made straight away.

Anyone know why we have 29 county councils to cover 26 counties?

34 councils overseeing it really

I find it interesting that they are recommending chnages to the administrative structures but not the political ones, god forbid there would be less councillors around!!

um7y1h83ge06nx

AA Ireland,

Undoubtedly you have heard this morning about the governments plans to toll our National Road system.

I'm thinking won't this, if it is introduced, probably increase road deaths?

People will the use regional roads over national roads. These have 80 km/h limits but people will try and make their journeys in the same time and do 100 km/h + on these roads. And obviously a lot of these roads are terrible, pot-holed, bendy.

Would love to hear the RSA response to this, which will probably be nothing at all.

There is a discussion started now on Boards.ie discussing this issue which may provide some good insight to the publics opinion on this shambles.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055977697

Regards,
XXX XXX.

Dear XXX–



Thanks for your email. I have to say this is an absolutely ridiculous idea. The notion of peppering the N-road network with tolls is absolutely ridiculous. I can’t say it strongly enough.



Even if we accept that they want to raise more money from motorists (which is the only purpose here) there are much more efficient ways of doing so. An extra cent per litre on petrol and diesel would raise more money for the exchequer than tolling the N-roads.



Your road safety point is also valid, and strengthens the case against this ridiculous idea.



The AA takes the view that this proposal has to be stopped in its tracks, immediately, and we are going to work very hard with the support of Irish motorists to do just that.



Regards,



Conor Faughnan

Director of Policy

Just got this from Conor Faughnan.

Cionád

monkeypants wrote: »

Anyone know why we have 29 county councils to cover 26 counties?

Apart from the 3 dublin counties, there is North and South Tipperary CC - not sure why

Riskymove

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I'm sure there are another few spare ones around, split in Cork maybe?

its Tipperary bizzarely...Tipp North and South

shedweller

mike65 wrote: »

Talking aboput the right now on RTE, a flaw has already been pointed out - you have to have a non-tolled alternative to a Motorway. Conor Faulknan notes that a penny/cent on fuel would achieve same.

I've said it before. It's a much simpler way of collecting taxes and with a bit of intelligence behind it would make little or no difference to peoples day to day expenses.
Of course, it would have to go hand in hand with the removal of those tax discs that people apparently have problems paying for.
It also cuts out the whole CO2 nonsense.
Then the user WILL pay, no matter what.

MySelf56

Sorry being devil advocate here, Country has high percentage of Beemers per capita(according to German ambassdor to Ireland, surely they are not cheaper), second high percentage of Gaming gadgets per capita, i heard from other threads people are waiting to hold their hands on new shiny Apple iPads, even few people dont want be frnd unless you have i<somegadget> so why this whining and moaning for pesky few toll charges?

Cookie_Monster

MySelf56 wrote: »

Sorry being devil advocate here, Country has high percentage of Beemers per capita(according to German ambassdor to Ireland, surely they are not cheaper), second high percentage of Gaming gadgets per capita, i heard from other threads people are waiting to hold their hands on new shiny Apple iPads, even few people dont want be frnd unless you have i<somegadget> so why this whining and moaning for pesky few toll charges?

because they are a ****ing stupid way to collect tax. just have the balls to tack 3-4% onto income tax and job done.

CamperMan

w@nkers!

I don't want to even think about how this government is going to feck us all over... might just emigrate

Cionád

MySelf56 wrote: »

Sorry being devil advocate here, Country has high percentage of Beemers per capita(according to German ambassdor to Ireland, surely they are not cheaper), second high percentage of Gaming gadgets per capita, i heard from other threads people are waiting to hold their hands on new shiny Apple iPads, even few people dont want be frnd unless you have i<somegadget> so why this whining and moaning for pesky few toll charges?

Luxury purchases are easily avoided, nationwide N-road toll charges are not.

mike65

I reckon this will be a dead proposal by tea-time.

dpmurray

MySelf56 wrote: »

Sorry being devil advocate here, Country has high percentage of Beemers per capita(according to German ambassdor to Ireland, surely they are not cheaper), second high percentage of Gaming gadgets per capita, i heard from other threads people are waiting to hold their hands on new shiny Apple iPads, even few people dont want be frnd unless you have i<somegadget> so why this whining and moaning for pesky few toll charges?

Its not moaning over a pesky few toll charges.. its that point that its just another way for councils/government to rip off the general public.

Tolling for motorways / national routes is fair enough, but the quality of most national routes are a disgrace by international standards. Plus why the hell do people have to pay such high car taxes and now be expected to pay for poor quality roads.

As everyone else is saying... it'll be a disgrace if this goes through.

MySelf56

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

just have the balls to tack 3-4% onto income tax and job done.

They did already hiked taxes, "Income feking levy" does ring any bells. I am against the idea taxing way out of recesssion. Hiking 1 cent exchequer will have domino effect on goods transportation charges as well.

conneem-TT

MySelf56 wrote: »

Sorry being devil advocate here, Country has high percentage of Beemers per capita(according to German ambassdor to Ireland, surely they are not cheaper), second high percentage of Gaming gadgets per capita, i heard from other threads people are waiting to hold their hands on new shiny Apple iPads, even few people dont want be frnd unless you have i<somegadget> so why this whining and moaning for pesky few toll charges?

How can you justify being charged a tax because for example you decide to save your money for something nice rather than spending 50 euro a week p*ssing it up against a wall or leaving it behind in an ashtray ect..

It seems you have a begruding attitude first and foremost.

This proposal blantantly targets a certain demographic without any good reason. People have no option but to use the road network to get to work ect.., we already pay a road tax and these roads were built with public money, so it is totally unjustified other than fill the coffers.

Cookie_Monster

MySelf56 wrote: »

They did already hiked taxes, "Income feking levy" does ring any bells. I am against the idea taxing way out of recesssion. Hiking 1 cent exchequer will have domino effect on goods transportation charges as well.

we still have one of the lowest tax rates in the EU and one of the narrowest tax bands, so much of the workforce is outside the tax net. Income tax needs to be higher. I don't want it to be and I'm sure most others don't either but from a large scale view it should be done.

Anyway this isn't a conversation for motors so I'l say no more on it.

monkeypants

Cionád wrote: »

Apart from the 3 dublin counties, there is North and South Tipperary CC - not sure why

I've heard that it was because of a war between Tipperary North and Tipperary South in the fifties. The USSR provides weapons and other support to the north and the UN assisted the south. The county remained split after the conflict, South Tipperary remained democratic whereas the North has been ruled by an immovable madman. There are rumours that the North have nukes, but this has yet to be confirmed.

MySelf56

conneem-TT wrote: »

How can you justify being charged a tax because for example you decide to save your money for something nice rather than spending 50 euro a week p*ssing it up against a wall or leaving it behind in an ashtray ect..

It seems you have a begruding attitude first and foremost.

This proposal blantantly targets a certain demographic without any good reason. People have no option but to use the road network to get to work ect.., we already pay a road tax and these roads were built with public money, so it is totally unjustified other than fill the coffers.

let me get this stright I am like any other person here depends upon car for work or social. But as i said i am just being devil advocate here, if think its begruding so be it, i dont give fly..

Cookie_Monster

monkeypants wrote: »

I've heard that it was because of a war between Tipperary North and Tipperary South in the fifties. The USSR provides weapons and other support to the north and the UN assisted the south. The county remained split after the conflict, South Tipperary remained democratic whereas the North has been ruled by an immovable madman. There are rumours that the North have nukes, but this has yet to be confirmed.

:pac::pac::pac:
****ing genious

Morlar

This sounds like the typical green party 'penalise financially' approach.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0723/economy.html

A Government commissioned report has recommended the introduction of tolls on national roads, an increase in the price of driving licences and a significant reduction in senior management in local authorities.

The Independent Local Government Efficiency Review Group has made a series of cost-saving and revenue-raising proposals, which would save more than €500m.

The report published this morning by Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government John Gormley

carsQhere

Oh toll the N roads! What a plan! It's so off-the-wall that a separate working group was concieved to spawn it, doubtless so the Dept. can say "it wasn't us" when the proposal self destructs.

Thing is, there are places, for example the Ashbourne bypass, or the Arklow bypass, or Boyle, or Dundalk, or any of dozens of oter similar locations where an overhead gantry full of toll cameras would be irresistable to the ruling class.

So maybe it's not quite so impractical an idea as it appears at first glance. Add to that a Government desperate for cash to pump into it's pet zombie bank, and it suddenly starts to look distinctly plausible...