The Gurka That Turned Into Jack Bauer!

Biggins

Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.
In Afghanistan a group of soldiers were chasing after a high value Taliban target.
When they caught him and he was killed in the still ongoing fire-fight, bosses from up high above him demanded that his body be brought back to base to prove identity.

Unfortunately this proved to be damn difficult as the soldiers were still in the middle of an intense battle - so one Gurka did the next best thing! :pac:

...In order to confirm identity of their target (as per orders) he chopped off the Taliban leaders dead head and brought that back instead! :pac:

His reward? Suspension and sent back to Britain!

Jack Bauer would not be pleased!


The original article:

wobbles-grogan

I like it!!

The guy could go to jail, going by what the article says anyway.... That's not cool. If he's really Jack Bauer though, he'll find a way out of it...

Guy:Incognito

Joanna Lumley will not be pleased.

syklops

From the article:

It is understood the Gurka then cut off the dead mans head with his kukri(ceremonial knife), and took it with him so his identiity could be confirmed.

This is considered offensive to Afghans whose customs dictate the entire body be buried, even if it means retrieval of body parts.

So let me get this straight, invading a country, killing and capturing its leaders, and sending many of its young men to prison without trial is fine, but woe betide you if you insult burial customs?

The world has gone mad!

Biggins

Had I thought of it, I would have done the same damn thing as the Gurka.
Daft sods back home over-reacting from behind their desks.

Guy:Incognito

Biggins wrote: »

Had I thought of it, I would have done the same damn thing as the Gurka.
Daft sods back home over-reacting from behind their desks.

The leaky neck spoiling their desk probably annoyed them a bit

Biggins

Stekelly wrote: »

The leaky neck spoiling their desk probably annoyed them a bit

LOL True - damn paperwork getting stained! :pac:

Manach

Well in civilian life, he'd do well in a recruitment agency as they are always on the lookout for headhunters.

In two minds about this.. If it were my brother who had his head chopped of by an invading force, it'd ruin my day..

If a British soldier did it to someone in the IRA during the troubles, i'd say everyone in the country would have picked up a gun.

Wicklowrider

A Brit named Simon Murray served in the French foreign Legion in the '50's. In his book about his service in the legion he describes either himself or another legionairre ( long,long time since I read it) beheading a FLN guerilla corpse for to prove identity. He said they were on top of a mountain In Algeria at the time and didn't fancy carying the corpse down the mountain. Cannot recall if they were reprimanded or not, somehow I doubt it. I think Murray went on to be a bigshot banker in his later life so it didn't exactly hold back his civilian career.

syklops

Deleted User wrote: »

In two minds about this.. If it were my brother who had his head chopped of by an invading force, it'd ruin my day..

If a British soldier did it to someone in the IRA during the troubles, i'd say everyone in the country would have picked up a gun.

If a british solidier did it during the troubles the BA/MOD would (then) have had the good sense to cover it up. Not return the soldier to base and let the Sunday Times hear about it.

Nowadays the MoD is run by accountants and PR enthusiasts. Bad press and numbers in spreadsheets are more important than the job in hand.

Dyr

syklops wrote: »

If a british solidier did it during the troubles the BA/MOD would (then) have had the good sense to cover it up. Not return the soldier to base and let the Sunday Times hear about it.

Nowadays the MoD is run by accountants and PR enthusiasts. Bad press and numbers in spreadsheets are more important than the job in hand.

Cover it up?..how exactly do you explain a dead provo who's missing a hand to the relatives? It was always like that but they never noticed?

pickarooney

Afghanistan
Taliban
Burqa ban
Gurkha

Go crazy, Daily Mail headliners.

wes

So, taking a picture was out of the question?!?

Biggins

wes wrote: »

So, taking a picture was out of the question?!?

You have a point but there will always be someone who will also claim pics can be faked, it's not him but someone like him, etc...
You can't fake DNA however (that I know of)!

syklops

Bambi wrote: »

Cover it up?..how exactly do you explain a dead provo who's missing a hand to the relatives? It was always like that but they never noticed?

You stick a grenade or two under him and take cover. Best to have a bucket and sponge ready.

Nijmegen

The British army can either issue everyone with a (robust) digital camera or shut up. The guy was under fire and taking the body was not an option. So he adapted, improvised and overcame the problem, right how you're trained to do it.

It's a war. The guy is the enemy. He was dead already and not going to miss his head.

Alternatively the PC brigade and a few journalists can be on standby to pull bodies out under fire.

Gyalist

So that's all the billions spent trying to win "hearts and minds" gone down the drain. The Taliban couldn't have wished for a better recruiting sergeant.

Ash.J.Williams

Bambi wrote: »

Cover it up?..how exactly do you explain a dead provo who's missing a hand to the relatives? It was always like that but they never noticed?

you wouldn't hand over the body....it would vanish...

Nijmegen

Gyalist wrote: »

So that's all the billions spent trying to win "hearts and minds" gone down the drain. The Taliban couldn't have wished for a better recruiting sergeant.

The Taliban wins hearts and minds by cutting them out of people.

Stoning women who attended schools in areas they take back.

Punishing men who don't wear a proper beard.

Yeah, the soldier who cut off the head of one of their commanders is clearly at the vanguard of an evil empire attempting to roll over a poor and innocent land of freedom fighters.

Biggins

Nijmegen wrote: »

The Taliban wins hearts and minds by cutting them out of people.

Stoning women who attended schools in areas they take back.

Punishing men who don't wear a proper beard.

Yeah, the soldier who cut off the head of one of their commanders is clearly at the vanguard of an evil empire attempting to roll over a poor and innocent land of freedom fighters.

...Don't forget about blowing guests up at a wedding or killing similar large groups of people while they are just trying to collect their wages (just a few days ago).

The Taliban can't speak of winning a PR war - their own actions is turning off the Afgan' people by the hundreds per day - who are seeing them for what they really are.

Gyalist

So you prove that the Taliban are evil by behaving just like them? It is a tradition of war that the opposing sides are allowed to retrieve their dead. If Afghans start mutilating the bodies of dead NATO troops you'll no doubt be singing a different tune.

A few words from Rudyard Kipling, poet, apologist and cheerleader extraordinaire of British imperialism:

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
So-oldier ~of~ the Queen!

The Young British Soldier by Rudyard Kipling

Biggins

Gyalist wrote: »

So you prove that the Taliban are evil by behaving just like them? It is a tradition of war that the opposing sides are allowed to retrieve their dead. If Afghans start mutilating the bodies of dead NATO troops you'll no doubt be singing a different tune....

Aaa... aren't they doing that already to soldiers there and in Iraq anyway!
Or have we quickly already forgotten (just one simple example) about the a soldier that was chopped to pieces and then those sections left hanging from a bridge last year?
Lets not be forgetting either all the chopped heads of LIVE victims that were captured by the Taliban.

If the Taliban stood in glass greenhouses, they couldn't exactly throw the first stone!
...O' wait a minute, they are good at throwing stones too at heads aren't they?

Gyalist

The Taliban aren't fighting in Iraq.

Biggins

Gyalist wrote: »

The Taliban aren't fighting in Iraq.

That will be news to the soldiers there fighting them in the northern border regions!

...But carry on and avoid the rebuttal points put to you!

Nijmegen

Gyalist wrote: »

So you prove that the Taliban are evil by behaving just like them? It is a tradition of war that the opposing sides are allowed to retrieve their dead. If Afghans start mutilating the bodies of dead NATO troops you'll no doubt be singing a different tune.

Several years ago a Royal Marine was killed and his body captured in Afghanistan. So concerned were his colleagues about the mutilation he would suffer, they mounted themselves on the side of an apache attack helicopter, flew in and rescued the body.

The Taliban, and their militant Islamic buddies around the world, don't mind mutilating the corpses of live and dead enemies.

wes

Biggins wrote: »

You have a point but there will always be someone who will also claim pics can be faked, it's not him but someone like him, etc...
You can't fake DNA however (that I know of)!

Ok, if they just wanted some DNA, they do not need the whole head. A small blood sample, or even a hair sample (not sure of that one) would have done the job as well.

Biggins

wes wrote: »

Ok, if they just wanted some DNA, they do not need the whole head. A small blood sample, or even a hair sample (not sure of that one) would have done the job as well.

Again true, very true but (not to be awkward, just pointing out) again some could claim, "Sure you could have taken those samples while he was/is still alive!"
(Wouldn't be the first time that an enemy has denied to their own and the world, one of their own has died)

To demoralise and thus hopefully divide the enemy, sometimes means having to prove totally that that their leaders are not infallible to capture and death.
Thus the probable reason why absolute confirmation was probably needed, the better the evidence, the better chance of undermining of morale on the opposite side.

Nijmegen

wes wrote: »

Ok, if they just wanted some DNA, they do not need the whole head. A small blood sample, or even a hair sample (not sure of that one) would have done the job as well.

They likely wanted the head for identification, I doubt they'd have his DNA.

Either way, you think to take a swab sample with 7.62mm rounds coming down on top of you.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.
In Afghanistan a group of soldiers were chasing after a high value Taliban target.
When they caught him and he was killed in the still ongoing fire-fight, bosses from up high above him demanded that his body be brought back to base to prove identity.

Unfortunately this proved to be damn difficult as the soldiers were still in the middle of an intense battle - so one Gurka did the next best thing! :pac:

...In order to confirm identity of their target (as per orders) he chopped off the Taliban leaders dead head and brought that back instead! :pac:

His reward? Suspension and sent back to Britain!

Jack Bauer would not be pleased!


The original article:

Jaysus, its like a boys own adventure out there, with all the shooting and the beheadins.

Scuid Mhór

'get the body!'

'we've been compromised!'

ejmaztec

The Ghurka probably already had one head from an earlier skirmish, but needed another one to stop his books falling off the shelf.

Biggins

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Ghurka probably already had one head from an earlier skirmish, but needed another one to stop his books falling off the shelf.

LOL :pac:

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus, its like a boys own adventure out there, with all the shooting and the beheadins.

We probably haven't "heard the half of it" as they say.

Getting back to the Gurka, I would be very reluctant, if at all, to reprimand him for his actions that had to be carried out not only according to pressure to see "proper identity" was established but also trying to do such a task while being fired upon by an enemy wanting his and his mates own heads!

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, even at the best of times - by the best.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers over-reacted in this case I feel.

wes

Biggins wrote: »

Again true, very true but (not to be awkward, just pointing out) again some could claim, "Sure you could have taken those samples while he was/is still alive!"
(Wouldn't be the first time that an enemy has denied to their own and the world, one of their own has died)

To demoralise and thus hopefully divide the enemy, sometimes means having to prove totally that that their leaders are not infallible to capture and death.
Thus the probable reason why absolute confirmation was probably needed, the better the evidence, the better chance of undermining of morale on the opposite side.

There leaders die all the time, and are just replaced by a new guy. I don't see the Taliban being demoralized by the death of the odd leader here or there. Something like this will only pi$$ them off some more, and thats about it.

Also, they could claim the head belonged to someone else, and they just made it to look like there guy as well. I am sure there more than capable of denying anything and everything if they want too.

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

They likely wanted the head for identification, I doubt they'd have his DNA.

Either way, you think to take a swab sample with 7.62mm rounds coming down on top of you.

Well, I would imagine it would be easier than cutting a guys head off. Which isn't easy from what I hear.

Biggins

wes wrote: »

There leaders die all the time, and are just replaced by a new guy. I don't see the Taliban being demoralized by the death of the odd leader here or there.

Also, they could claim the head belonged to someelse, and they just made it to look like there guy as well. I am sure there more than capable of denying anything and everything if they want too.

All true. Its an ever ongoing battle of wits and capabilities to make the most out of a given situation.
All each side can try and do is usurp the other in a latest attempt to get one over on the other.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, at the best of times.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers are over-reacted in this case I feel.

Funny....you were never this gung ho when Irish Republicanism was being discussed.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

Funny....you were never this gung ho when Irish Republicanism was being discussed.

Relevance to the present topic or is that just a pitiful attempt at having a go at me in order to move the goal posts in this topic?

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Relevance to the present topic or is that just a pitiful attempt at having a go at me in order to move the goal posts in this topic?

I'm just saying that your attitude in this instance is in stark, stark contrast to that shown in others.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

I'm just saying that your attitude in this instance is in stark, stark contrast to that shown in others.

How so? Examples?
If your going to accuse and personalise an attack - at least bring examples and not just quick snide remarks!
You might have a case but your words so far do not do yourself or your contention, any justice.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

How so? Examples?
If your going to accuse and personalise an attack - at least bring examples and not just quick snide remarks!
You might have a case but your words so far do not do yourself or your contention, any justice.

You cited the following article, alledging SF "criminality".

"In very few countries would politicians be expected to share power with a party led by people over whom such serious accusations hang. It might be possible to argue that these accusations are exactly that, only accusations: however, there are also multiple Sinn Fein MLAs who have been found guilty of serious crimes. Gerry Kelly is a released life sentence criminal, convicted in connection with the Old Bailey bombing which killed one person and injured 200. Paul Butler was convicted of murdering a police officer, Martina Anderson is a convicted bomber, Conor Murphy was convicted of explosives offences."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66913243&postcount=28

Bit of a contrast to

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, even at the best of times - by the best.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers over-reacted in this case I feel.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

You cited the following article, alledging SF "criminality".

"In very few countries would politicians be expected to share power with a party led by people over whom such serious accusations hang. It might be possible to argue that these accusations are exactly that, only accusations: however, there are also multiple Sinn Fein MLAs who have been found guilty of serious crimes. Gerry Kelly is a released life sentence criminal, convicted in connection with the Old Bailey bombing which killed one person and injured 200. Paul Butler was convicted of murdering a police officer, Martina Anderson is a convicted bomber, Conor Murphy was convicted of explosives offences."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66913243&postcount=28

Bit of a contrast to

Forgive me for being stupid (for I must be to be honest) but I still don't see what your alluding to?

On one side we have possible now career criminals operating in a time of relative peace and in another, we talking about an ongoing war being fought from trenches!

No idea what all this has to do with a Gurka removing head of an enemy so that he call follow orders to the letter as given to him!

Way off topic as far as I can see and is totally sidetracking the current theme of this thread!
(Mods please note!)

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Forgive me for being stupid (for I must be to be honest) but I still don't see what your alluding to?

On one side we have possible now career criminals operating in a time of relative peace and in another, we talking about an ongoing war being fought from trenches!

No idea what all this has to do with a Gurka removing head of an enemy so that he call follow orders to the letter as given to him!

Way off topic as far as I can see and is totally sidetracking the current theme of this thread!
(Mods please note!)

I would have thought it obvious.

What is the current theme of the thread, supposed to be btw? "beheading - wow thats cool like the TV!!!"

Tordelback

Morality is a funny old thing. You can pretty much do what you like to the living in your efforts to make them or people near them dead, but woe betide you if you lay a finger on the lump of meat that results from your actions. It's okay to strafe crowds, bomb villages or a family home to kill a Taliban leader, but not to act expediently and multilate a corpse to fulfill your orders and still get home safe? Pathologists and undertakers do it every day.

What kind of morality is that?

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

I would have thought it obvious.

What is the current theme of the thread, supposed to be btw? "beheading - wow thats cool like the TV!!!"

Aaa yes, what is it they say... "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit."

Getting back on topic. We have an incident that is relevant to today's view and perspective on how we should treat/honour/punish soldiers and their actions at times of personal crises such as in an intense fire-fight and still willing to follow demands according to the orders one has received from above in office.

The discussion on the floor generally is "are his soldier bosses over-reacting in their treatment of the Gurka?"

elius

Cant seem to get the pic up :(

pablomakaveli

I can understand where the soldier was coming from. Carrying a body, which would probably require two people to carry, would be extremely difficult under fire and could result in casualties amongst his comrades. The thing is if they decided to abandon the body they probably would have been reprimanded for disobeying orders as well.

I don't think many people will weep for a beheaded Taliban commander tbh.

Tordelback

I wouldn't weep if every last Taliban commander was beheaded post-mortem, TBH. Fighting for the right to keep girls out of school and women out of work, raping 15 year olds in the name of 'marriage', burning cinemas, prohibiting music, stoning or mutilating anyone that looks sideways at them, and all the time getting fat off the heroin trade. Feck the bloody lot of them.

KeithAFC

Gyalist wrote: »

So that's all the billions spent trying to win "hearts and minds" gone down the drain. The Taliban couldn't have wished for a better recruiting sergeant.

Why would anyone want to join the most evil thing on this planet in the Taliban? People should be happy this Gurka cut this ***** head off. He was dead anyway.

concussion

Wicklowrider wrote: »

A Brit named Simon Murray served in the French foreign Legion in the '50's. In his book about his service in the legion he describes either himself or another legionairre ( long,long time since I read it) beheading a FLN guerilla corpse for to prove identity. He said they were on top of a mountain In Algeria at the time and didn't fancy carying the corpse down the mountain. Cannot recall if they were reprimanded or not, somehow I doubt it. I think Murray went on to be a bigshot banker in his later life so it didn't exactly hold back his civilian career.

They were ordered back up the mountain to retrieve the heads of three Arabs for identification. Murray stood guard while his buddy cut off two of the heads (half an hours work with a pen-knife) while the third was left as it was unrecognisable. He then carried the heads down and was instructed to dispose of them once the Int officers were done. He threw them into the bushes but one was retrieved by another section who put it in their soup cauldron before offering a mug to a German soldier. The German promtly threw up when they pulled the head out of the cauldron, dripping blood and soup everywhere. Good times I believe.

jackiebaron

Biggins wrote: »

Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.
In Afghanistan a group of soldiers were chasing after a high value Taliban target.
When they caught him and he was killed in the still ongoing fire-fight, bosses from up high above him demanded that his body be brought back to base to prove identity.

Unfortunately this proved to be damn difficult as the soldiers were still in the middle of an intense battle - so one Gurka did the next best thing! :pac:

...In order to confirm identity of their target (as per orders) he chopped off the Taliban leaders dead head and brought that back instead! :pac:

His reward? Suspension and sent back to Britain!

Jack Bauer would not be pleased!


The original article:

Nobody had a mobile phone or camera?. This story smacks of bullsh1t.