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The Gurka That Turned Into Jack Bauer!

Biggins

Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.
In Afghanistan a group of soldiers were chasing after a high value Taliban target.
When they caught him and he was killed in the still ongoing fire-fight, bosses from up high above him demanded that his body be brought back to base to prove identity.

Unfortunately this proved to be damn difficult as the soldiers were still in the middle of an intense battle - so one Gurka did the next best thing! :pac:

...In order to confirm identity of their target (as per orders) he chopped off the Taliban leaders dead head and brought that back instead! :pac:

His reward? Suspension and sent back to Britain!

Jack Bauer would not be pleased!

The original article:

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ejmaztec

The Ghurka probably already had one head from an earlier skirmish, but needed another one to stop his books falling off the shelf.

Biggins

ejmaztec wrote: »

The Ghurka probably already had one head from an earlier skirmish, but needed another one to stop his books falling off the shelf.

LOL :pac:

Nodin wrote: »

Jaysus, its like a boys own adventure out there, with all the shooting and the beheadins.

We probably haven't "heard the half of it" as they say.

Getting back to the Gurka, I would be very reluctant, if at all, to reprimand him for his actions that had to be carried out not only according to pressure to see "proper identity" was established but also trying to do such a task while being fired upon by an enemy wanting his and his mates own heads!

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, even at the best of times - by the best.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers over-reacted in this case I feel.

wes

Biggins wrote: »

Again true, very true but (not to be awkward, just pointing out) again some could claim, "Sure you could have taken those samples while he was/is still alive!"
(Wouldn't be the first time that an enemy has denied to their own and the world, one of their own has died)

To demoralise and thus hopefully divide the enemy, sometimes means having to prove totally that that their leaders are not infallible to capture and death.
Thus the probable reason why absolute confirmation was probably needed, the better the evidence, the better chance of undermining of morale on the opposite side.

There leaders die all the time, and are just replaced by a new guy. I don't see the Taliban being demoralized by the death of the odd leader here or there. Something like this will only pi$$ them off some more, and thats about it.

Also, they could claim the head belonged to someone else, and they just made it to look like there guy as well. I am sure there more than capable of denying anything and everything if they want too.

wes

Nijmegen wrote: »

They likely wanted the head for identification, I doubt they'd have his DNA.

Either way, you think to take a swab sample with 7.62mm rounds coming down on top of you.

Well, I would imagine it would be easier than cutting a guys head off. Which isn't easy from what I hear.

Biggins

wes wrote: »

There leaders die all the time, and are just replaced by a new guy. I don't see the Taliban being demoralized by the death of the odd leader here or there.

Also, they could claim the head belonged to someelse, and they just made it to look like there guy as well. I am sure there more than capable of denying anything and everything if they want too.

All true. Its an ever ongoing battle of wits and capabilities to make the most out of a given situation.
All each side can try and do is usurp the other in a latest attempt to get one over on the other.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, at the best of times.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers are over-reacted in this case I feel.

Funny....you were never this gung ho when Irish Republicanism was being discussed.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

Funny....you were never this gung ho when Irish Republicanism was being discussed.

Relevance to the present topic or is that just a pitiful attempt at having a go at me in order to move the goal posts in this topic?

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Relevance to the present topic or is that just a pitiful attempt at having a go at me in order to move the goal posts in this topic?

I'm just saying that your attitude in this instance is in stark, stark contrast to that shown in others.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

I'm just saying that your attitude in this instance is in stark, stark contrast to that shown in others.

How so? Examples?
If your going to accuse and personalise an attack - at least bring examples and not just quick snide remarks!
You might have a case but your words so far do not do yourself or your contention, any justice.

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

How so? Examples?
If your going to accuse and personalise an attack - at least bring examples and not just quick snide remarks!
You might have a case but your words so far do not do yourself or your contention, any justice.

You cited the following article, alledging SF "criminality".

"In very few countries would politicians be expected to share power with a party led by people over whom such serious accusations hang. It might be possible to argue that these accusations are exactly that, only accusations: however, there are also multiple Sinn Fein MLAs who have been found guilty of serious crimes. Gerry Kelly is a released life sentence criminal, convicted in connection with the Old Bailey bombing which killed one person and injured 200. Paul Butler was convicted of murdering a police officer, Martina Anderson is a convicted bomber, Conor Murphy was convicted of explosives offences."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66913243&postcount=28

Bit of a contrast to

"War is war" as they say and normal rules of what must and can be done are never easy to stick to, even at the best of times - by the best.
The army armchair politically correct paper-pushers over-reacted in this case I feel.

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

You cited the following article, alledging SF "criminality".

"In very few countries would politicians be expected to share power with a party led by people over whom such serious accusations hang. It might be possible to argue that these accusations are exactly that, only accusations: however, there are also multiple Sinn Fein MLAs who have been found guilty of serious crimes. Gerry Kelly is a released life sentence criminal, convicted in connection with the Old Bailey bombing which killed one person and injured 200. Paul Butler was convicted of murdering a police officer, Martina Anderson is a convicted bomber, Conor Murphy was convicted of explosives offences."

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66913243&postcount=28

Bit of a contrast to

Forgive me for being stupid (for I must be to be honest) but I still don't see what your alluding to?

On one side we have possible now career criminals operating in a time of relative peace and in another, we talking about an ongoing war being fought from trenches!

No idea what all this has to do with a Gurka removing head of an enemy so that he call follow orders to the letter as given to him!

Way off topic as far as I can see and is totally sidetracking the current theme of this thread!
(Mods please note!)

Nodin

Biggins wrote: »

Forgive me for being stupid (for I must be to be honest) but I still don't see what your alluding to?

On one side we have possible now career criminals operating in a time of relative peace and in another, we talking about an ongoing war being fought from trenches!

No idea what all this has to do with a Gurka removing head of an enemy so that he call follow orders to the letter as given to him!

Way off topic as far as I can see and is totally sidetracking the current theme of this thread!
(Mods please note!)

I would have thought it obvious.

What is the current theme of the thread, supposed to be btw? "beheading - wow thats cool like the TV!!!"

Tordelback

Morality is a funny old thing. You can pretty much do what you like to the living in your efforts to make them or people near them dead, but woe betide you if you lay a finger on the lump of meat that results from your actions. It's okay to strafe crowds, bomb villages or a family home to kill a Taliban leader, but not to act expediently and multilate a corpse to fulfill your orders and still get home safe? Pathologists and undertakers do it every day.

What kind of morality is that?

Biggins

Nodin wrote: »

I would have thought it obvious.

What is the current theme of the thread, supposed to be btw? "beheading - wow thats cool like the TV!!!"

Aaa yes, what is it they say... "Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit."

Getting back on topic. We have an incident that is relevant to today's view and perspective on how we should treat/honour/punish soldiers and their actions at times of personal crises such as in an intense fire-fight and still willing to follow demands according to the orders one has received from above in office.

The discussion on the floor generally is "are his soldier bosses over-reacting in their treatment of the Gurka?"

elius

Cant seem to get the pic up

pablomakaveli

I can understand where the soldier was coming from. Carrying a body, which would probably require two people to carry, would be extremely difficult under fire and could result in casualties amongst his comrades. The thing is if they decided to abandon the body they probably would have been reprimanded for disobeying orders as well.

I don't think many people will weep for a beheaded Taliban commander tbh.

Tordelback

I wouldn't weep if every last Taliban commander was beheaded post-mortem, TBH. Fighting for the right to keep girls out of school and women out of work, raping 15 year olds in the name of 'marriage', burning cinemas, prohibiting music, stoning or mutilating anyone that looks sideways at them, and all the time getting fat off the heroin trade. Feck the bloody lot of them.

KeithAFC

Gyalist wrote: »

So that's all the billions spent trying to win "hearts and minds" gone down the drain. The Taliban couldn't have wished for a better recruiting sergeant.

Why would anyone want to join the most evil thing on this planet in the Taliban? People should be happy this Gurka cut this ***** head off. He was dead anyway.

concussion

Wicklowrider wrote: »

A Brit named Simon Murray served in the French foreign Legion in the '50's. In his book about his service in the legion he describes either himself or another legionairre ( long,long time since I read it) beheading a FLN guerilla corpse for to prove identity. He said they were on top of a mountain In Algeria at the time and didn't fancy carying the corpse down the mountain. Cannot recall if they were reprimanded or not, somehow I doubt it. I think Murray went on to be a bigshot banker in his later life so it didn't exactly hold back his civilian career.

They were ordered back up the mountain to retrieve the heads of three Arabs for identification. Murray stood guard while his buddy cut off two of the heads (half an hours work with a pen-knife) while the third was left as it was unrecognisable. He then carried the heads down and was instructed to dispose of them once the Int officers were done. He threw them into the bushes but one was retrieved by another section who put it in their soup cauldron before offering a mug to a German soldier. The German promtly threw up when they pulled the head out of the cauldron, dripping blood and soup everywhere. Good times I believe.

jackiebaron

Biggins wrote: »

Truth can be stranger than fiction sometimes.
In Afghanistan a group of soldiers were chasing after a high value Taliban target.
When they caught him and he was killed in the still ongoing fire-fight, bosses from up high above him demanded that his body be brought back to base to prove identity.

Unfortunately this proved to be damn difficult as the soldiers were still in the middle of an intense battle - so one Gurka did the next best thing! :pac:

...In order to confirm identity of their target (as per orders) he chopped off the Taliban leaders dead head and brought that back instead! :pac:

His reward? Suspension and sent back to Britain!

Jack Bauer would not be pleased!

The original article:

Nobody had a mobile phone or camera?. This story smacks of bullsh1t.

concussion

There's a good chance they didn't have a camera. And if they had taken a photo, what if the camera broke during their withdrawal or the the photo was blurry? The article claims he was out of ammunition, under heavy fire and trying to carry a body. I'm not surprised at all, seems like the smart thing to do.

jackiebaron

concussion wrote: »

There's a good chance they didn't have a camera. And if they had taken a photo, what if the camera broke during their withdrawal or the the photo was blurry? The article claims he was out of ammunition, under heavy fire and trying to carry a body. I'm not surprised at all, seems like the smart thing to do.

So they are ordered on a mission with the expressed intent of killing or capturing a certain individual and nobody prior to the mission dares to ask "Sir, if we kill this individual, how do you wish we present you with evidence of his identity?"

You say "what if the camera broke?"
How does a reconnaissance soldier bring evidence of troop movements or tank formations or radar installations or gun emplacements back to base?
Uses photographs doesn't he?
What if the camera broke!!!! Gimme peace!
What if the Gurkha stepped on a landmine and he and the severed head were blown to atoms?
What if they killed the guy but he was unrecognisable, he was so mutilated?
This story is ridiculous. The armed forces in Afghanistan haven't a clue who they are fighting. Every week they kill Al-Qaeda #2.

Ridiculous.

Wicklowrider

jackiebaron wrote: »

So they are ordered on a mission with the expressed intent of killing or capturing a certain individual and nobody prior to the mission dares to ask "Sir, if we kill this individual, how do you wish we present you with evidence of his identity?" .

I presume they were ordered to return with the body as this appears to be standard procedure over there - thence the many gruesome photos of corpses we've seen in the tabloids.But in this instance that wasn't possible. An experienced soldier in combat doesn't react/think like someone behind a keyboard. I for one wouldn't be able to confirm or deny identity by a photo unless I was very well acquainted with the person - family or some such.

Remember something else - in the time we take to type these posts thousands of rounds would have been fired in an action - I doubt analytical thought process functions, instead training takes over.
Personally I couldn't care less if its true or not but I'd imagine that the Brit authourities would have killed the story very quickly if it isn't true.It isn't the image joe(british) public wants to have of their armed forces.

Biggins

jackiebaron wrote: »

Nobody had a mobile phone or camera?. This story smacks of bullsh1t.

That point has been addressed already.
You do well to read back and then post an opinion before instead retorting with just unfounded vulgarity.
At least if you looked at previous points put to and fro you might have come up with a decent post/comment and have foundation for it - and even show it!

concussion

jackiebaron wrote: »

So they are ordered on a mission with the expressed intent of killing or capturing a certain individual and nobody prior to the mission dares to ask "Sir, if we kill this individual, how do you wish we present you with evidence of his identity?"

Bring the body back. If he was alive they'd be bringing him back anyway, he'd just be moving under his own power.

jackiebaron wrote: »

You say "what if the camera broke?"
How does a reconnaissance soldier bring evidence of troop movements or tank formations or radar installations or gun emplacements back to base?
Uses photographs doesn't he?
What if the camera broke!!!! Gimme peace!

A recce team would, if possible, send back photos in real time using their radios. They would also sketch the target and, I'm sure, hope that they don't break their camera on the way back. This situation is completely different to a recce mission, in that the target isn't a radar station or tank but a person which is a bit more portable. In addition, if their orders were to bring back the body for positive ID, then a photo wouldn't do. A head, however, given the pressure they were under, would still do the job.

jackiebaron wrote: »

What if the Gurkha stepped on a landmine and he and the severed head were blown to atoms?

Then I'm sure his camera would be destroyed as well, if the mine was big enough to vaporise a person.

jackiebaron wrote: »

What if they killed the guy but he was unrecognisable, he was so mutilated?

Then a photo would be useless as well. At least bringing a body, or part thereof, would allow DNA profiling to be conducted if neccessary.

jackiebaron wrote: »

This story is ridiculous. The armed forces in Afghanistan haven't a clue who they are fighting. Every week they kill Al-Qaeda #2.

Ridiculous.

Who are Al-Qaeda # 2?

A Dub in Glasgo

concussion wrote: »

Who are Al-Qaeda # 2?

After Al-Qaeda # 1 and before Al-Qaeda # 3

concussion

How many more have to be killed before Al Qaeda # 3 turn up??

CrazyFish

Thats what I call using your head. Saves him bring the whole thing back.

kaedan

Didn't read all posts. They kind of have to take serious action against him.. He cut the dead guys head off...

Geneva Convention - Desecration of the dead

pickarooney

jackiebaron wrote: »

Every week they kill Al-Qaeda #2.

Ridiculous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AvEPz-y0v8