RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

watty

Macy0161 wrote: »

1) Also, if it's to back up the saorview network, they'd have to be included I'd have thought.

2) Is this not a potential issue? A dish would be much less effort than a quad array.

1) Depends what level of service TV3 is paying for. Backup connections are usually an extra. Check out Arqiva.

2) No, because that amount of overspill isn't new, it doesn't create an issue with "rights holders" or require extra payment to actors, Musicians etc in RTE, TG4 and TV3. Look at people in Wexford and Dundalk that prefer a big aerial to a Dish. It's not enough people even if they do put up a dish (which needs a different LNB and pointed differently to Sky too). So a Dish on Welsh coast for Saorsat is more awkward than a dish in Ireland anywhere for Freesat and more awkward that Border and South East Coast Aerials for Freeview. A big aerial on Welsh coast for Saorview is simpler and can with a cheap distribution amp feed any number of TVs. Distribution of Satellite signals is more complicated. Also more problematic if you want Freesat or Sky too.

It's not just a Sport/Holywood issue. RTE's inhouse programs would cost more as people would expect to be paid more if the program was received over all of UK.

zg3409

chris76 wrote: »

Guy's is the service live at the moment ive been trying to pick it up today with no joy?

Chris76
I was watching RTE yesterday (Monday 9th) at about mid-day via Saorsat. You need a special LNB, a HD receiver and the dish to be pointed correctly. So on Monday there was a valid (live) TV signal being sent. It is still "a test" but as far as I know it has been on continuosly since the start of January without break. It could be turned off any second.

I am away at the moment (Monday night) so I can't check the signal regularly but as far as I am concerned it was on today.

Explain what LNB, receiver, location you are based and we might be able to help.
If you are looking at the spectrum with an analyser there is 4 fat blobs and one skinny one. The skinny one is RTENL. Also try a normal LNB on the same satellite first.

Apogee

Ciaran999 has just posted a photo of a proper consumer grade Ka-band LNBF obtained from Onwave.



Branded: Eutelsat KA-SAT
Manufacturer: Inverto (www.inverto.tv/)

Description:
White Ka
Twin Ka Circular Dual polarity 23mm LNB
19.7.20.2GHz (LO 21.20 GHz)
IDLW-TWNLRA20-D2120-OPP
S/N: P1 13801011
Made in China

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76424475&postcount=12

The Cush

zg3409 wrote: »

I see no TV3/3E on the signal currently being transmitted
http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html

I wonder if RTENL will look to TV3 for extra money to be carried on this service. After all RTENL say Saorsat is a "commercial venture" and TV3 only pay to be on terrestrial.

When the Saorsat plan was made public back in Jul 2010 this is what Conor Hayes of RTÉ said about Saorsat costs

It will cost us approximately €1.5 million per year. We can manage it. As other channels come on board, part of the cost will be defrayed. In light of the security this option provides and the ability to supply to the 2% of the population who do not currently receive public service television, the cost can be adequately justified.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/MAJ/2010/07/14/00003.asp

My understanding of that would be that any other broadcasters joining Saorsat would have to pay their share of the costs.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

Description:
White Ka
Twin Ka Circular Dual polarity 23mm LNB
19.7.20.2GHz (LO 21.20 GHz)
IDLW-TWNLRA20-D2120-OPP
S/N: P1 13801011
Made in China

I wonder is it a really a Twin rather than Dual? i.e. one outlet is LHC and the other outlet RHC.

If so then for regular dish you use one connection and for a Wavefrontier you use the other outlet.That's usually what "Twin" rather than "Dual" implies.

You don't need multiple outlets for a PVR as the single "correct" polarisation outlet can be split with a sat IF splitter.

Dual usually means a separate outlet for each polarisation (for distribution system, Like Quattro but no upper/lower band) and Twin is like a Quad, except has 2 rather than 4 independent outlets.

Either way, this LNBF will work for Saorsat for Wavefrontier (select reversed polarisation) or Distribution system (Multiswitch only needs one feed)

watty

1500K p.a. / 10 = 150k p.a.

Rating RTE HD as equal to 4 x SD channels

So TV3 would have to pay at least 300K p.a. to have DTT backup and satellite coverage for 2 x SD channels. A bargain. That's less than just EPG used to be for 2 x TV channels FTA on Sky with your own carriage.

If the 1.5M is for 2 x Multiplexes (50Mbps rather than tests 25Mbps) then only 150k p.a. minimum for 2 x TV3 channels. Which it could be. Carriage on Ka-Sat should be hugely cheaper than Eurobird or Astra @28E

Apogee

watty wrote: »

I wonder is it a really a Twin rather than Dual? i.e. one outlet is LHC and the other outlet RHC.

If so then for regular dish you use one connection and for a Wavefrontier you use the other outlet. That's usually what "Twin" rather than "Dual" implies.

You don't need multiple outlets for a PVR as the single "correct" polarisation outlet can be split with a sat IF splitter.

I read it as twin = 2x independent outputs both with independent RHCP/LHCP switching, same as a twin universal LNBF.

watty

Have I got my Dual and Twin definitions back to front again?

The Cush

watty wrote: »

Have I got my Dual and Twin definitions back to front again?

I remember back in the days before Astra Hi-band (22khz) switching we had single output and Dual output (H pol on 1 output and V pol on the other) standard/enhaced LNBs. With the arrival of Hi Band (11.7 GHz upwards) Dual LNBs were replaced by quattros and single and twin universal LNBs (2 independant outputs) appeared on the market.

People now appear to use twin/dual interchangeably as there are no real Dual LNBs on the market.

Apogee

Dual C/Ku band LNBFs are relatively popular in other parts of the world. Monoblocs are often marketed as 'dual' as well.

watty

C band has no Hi/low, just H/V or RHC/LHC, so two outlets needed not four (Quattro) for a Multiswitch. I think that's a Dual. (one polarisation per output).

Dual on a Monoblock refers to Horns?

Twin is logically the two output version of a Quad. So I did have it back to front.

Anyhow, either is fine for Ka-Sat since the Irish Spot will only ever have one band and one polarisation.

BTW the horn spacing on a Monoblock, if correct for 3 or 6 degrees in Germany will be wrong on a different F/D dish or for the same two satellites much further west or east than Germany.

Monoblocs are inflexible in terms of expansion may not be the correct spacing for an arbitrary dish. The spacing of LNBs is most when the two satellites are equally either side of due south and decreases with moving your location east or west from that. Some larger dishes will have a larger LNB spacing for same spacing of satellites. So avoid Monoblocs

Apogee

watty wrote: »

C band has no Hi/low, just H/V or RHC/LHC, so two outlets needed not four (Quattro) for a Multiswitch. I think that's a Dual. (one polarisation per output).

Dual C/Ku refers to reception of both C-band and Ku-band.

Maybe we can get back on topic now?

Peddyr

Being a complete Luddite when it comes to Satellite TV & equipment, does anyone know if this would work for Saorsat?

zg3409

Peddyr wrote: »

Being a complete Luddite when it comes to Satellite TV & equipment, does anyone know if this would work for Saorsat?

No. This is NOT a KA band LNB. It is an ordinary LNB. I have not seen a 40mm KA LNB for sale anywhere online. Apparently if you ring onwave.ie they seem to have them. Usual caveats, service not officially launched yet etc.

martin12

zg3409 wrote: »

No. This is NOT a KA band LNB. It is an ordinary LNB. I have not seen a 40mm KA LNB for sale anywhere online. Apparently if you ring onwave.ie they seem to have them. Usual caveats, service not officially launched yet etc.

Are Onwave.ie selling these KA LNB's to anyone and if so how much

The Cush

martin12 wrote: »

Are Onwave.ie selling these KA LNB's to anyone and if so how much

Ciaran999 posted here that he got one for an elderly neighbour. When I asked how much it cost and if he purchased from Onwave he said to contact Onwave.

Ciaran999 wrote: »

Call Onwave.
Goodbye.

He did post this earlier in that thread

Ciaran999 wrote: »

Saorsat Dish and LNB from ONWAVE c. €50 / €60 (I think Onwave are Eutelsats Irish agent, www.onwave.ie, will probably have to phone them as there web site is not informative), similar size dish and similar size LNB (LNBF) as FTA satellite, freesat or Sky. Don't know how much the LNB is on its own but probably in the region of €25 / €35, 1,000's in stock aparently.

Dual LNB dish (Dish, bracket and two LNB's) for Saorsat + FTA Satellite c. €80 / €90 from same.

watty

Even if Onwave are selling these I would strongly recommend waiting 7 to 10 weeks more...

At least until a concrete definite date is published officially by RTE or RTENL.

ISAA

I recorded this today, 15-1-2012

On a new sat metre trimax 6600HD, so far excellent.

I''ll upload better quality over the next week or so, with different size dishes and dual feed tests.

Still using commercial equipment, so still TESTING.


http://www.youtube.com/user/isaatv?feature=mhee

watty

watty wrote: »

Even if Onwave are selling these I would strongly recommend waiting 7 to 10 weeks more...

At least until a concrete definite date is published officially by RTE or RTENL.

I'd second this advice. The Picnic boxes worked during Saorview testing but did not work fully with the finished product as it could not do HD. Who knows what issues might pop up in the meantime with the Ka equipment?

zg3409

zg3409 wrote: »

Irish beam (24):
http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6714
Zoom in to show more detail
This shows a lot smaller coverage than the reality.

Scottish beam (45):
http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6735

French beam (22):
http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6712

Click on 22/24/45 to quickly switch between the three.
The beams and tooways install manual and website seem to match.

A combined map would be very helpful for our UK friends. Adjacent beam noise could just be listed until we know what works.

In the hope of answering my own question I got time to try a better coverge map. First I got the 3 beams above and put them on one map:



Then I drew three purple elipses. These were drawn at the half way point between each spot. Thus where two purple elipses meet, e.g. sheffield, it's half way between the centre of each spot, and the signal received on the ground should be exactly the same from both spots. At these points, if both spots are transmitting on the same frequency you should get neither signal, no matter the size of dish.



I then marked in RED where I think the middle boundary is over wales. I then drew a line in green estimating the point where Saorsat should be possible. Near the green boundary, you may need a slightly larger dish during heavy rain, just because the signal will be a little weaker than the centre of the spot.



All this is a bit hit and miss, coverage could easily be off by 100 miles, the elipses are not perfect & hand drawn, signal over Belfast/Antrim will hopefully be better etc. If anyone wants to try and improve on this, work away.

I must also say thanks to http://www.satbeams.com/ as I used their beams. I hope they can perform such a task in the future and hopefully RTENL/Eutelsat will produce something similar.

watty

Karsini wrote: »

I'd second this advice. The Picnic boxes worked during Saorview testing but did not work fully with the finished product as it could not do HD. Who knows what issues might pop up in the meantime with the Ka equipment?

The LNBF being offered by Onwave is the real McCoy other people have, but not selling yet as the service has not been confirmed.

RTENL can save money and make out of area reception harder by using less power on their Saorsat carriers. This increases the Dish size from a possible minimum 44cm to what ever dish size RTE decide on. They are likely to decide on 65cm. Which means a dual feed with Freesat/Sky needs maybe 80cm to 90cm (east vs extreme North west / South West). We will not know till RTE announces the service and publishes the specification.

zg3409

This is secondhand info.

Spoke to someone who was on the phone to sales in Onwave. They do not want to sell small amounts over the phone. They said the price will be 25 Euro INCLUDING VAT but EXCLUDING shipping. They hope to have a way of ordering them online in the next few weeks.

The person I spoke to will be contacted by onwave when the online selling is available and will let me know.

So there is no point ringing onwave at the minute to try order one or two LNBs as they are not interested.

The LNBs seem to have a 23mm collar with a 40mm adapter included.

He also said they have 1,000s of them.

gerrymartin

watty wrote: »

Onwave is ONLY relevant if you are so doomed that you need a Satellite Terminal for Internet. Otherwise absolutely nothing to do with Saorsat. It just happens to use the same Satellite. Your normal regular professional Satellite dish installer will be able to provide Saorsat when the service is live and LNBFs are available.

It would appear from information I have received today, that you are incorrect on this, although I agree any "professional installer" wil be able to provide Saorsat in the future when the service/equipment is available
Incidentally it's the "absolutely nothing to do with Saorsat" part of your repy that I feel is misinformation.

Hotblack Desiato

zg3409 wrote: »

Spoke to someone who was on the phone to sales in Onwave. They do not want to sell small amounts over the phone. They said the price will be 25 Euro INCLUDING VAT but EXCLUDING shipping. They hope to have a way of ordering them online in the next few weeks.

If only there was an easy way of selling stuff online. I could set it up and call it F-Bay, or Gamazon, or something :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

gerrymartin wrote: »

It would appear from information I have received today, that you are incorrect on this, although I agree any "professional installer" wil be able to provide Saorsat in the future when the service/equipment is available
Incidentally it's the "absolutely nothing to do with Saorsat" part of your repy that I feel is misinformation.

It is nothing to do with Saorsat. Just happens to come from the same satellite.

watty

Tooway and Saorsat happen to use the same Satellite. No-one needs to get Tooway, nor should a company that is only a VSAT reseller / Installer be promoting LNBFs for Saorview before the service is launched. Other sources are responsibly doing nothing till RTE announce the service.

If Onwave want to be a TV installer too, why don't they wait till the service is announced? There is nothing stopping them offering aerial & Freesat installation. But selling non-VSAT LNBFs for Ka-Sat and promoting Saorsat before an official announcement isn't cricket. It seems an underhand way of getting into TV installs.

Also no-one getting Saorsat should be marketed Satellite Internet (it's not Broadband) at same time. That sends the wrong message about Saorsat.

That's what I mean that there should be no connection.

watty

ninja900 wrote: »

If only there was an easy way of selling stuff online. I could set it up and call it F-Bay, or Gamazon, or something :rolleyes:

Sure there is. You can set up a Commercial Online shop for under €200 and use PayPal, who will process credit cards for those with no paypal account. There are couple of easy to set up free packages that are quite good

This site is done with free "OScommerce" Setup will take about one to two days if you are experienced at hosting config. http://shop.trenz-electronic.de/catalog/

The €200 is for your Linux hosting and Domain name for the year.

Hotblack Desiato

Yeah, or just set up an eBay store.

Did the old sarcasm detector drift off-frequency just a little

I wouldn't have any problem with them or anyone else flogging LNBFs, with suitable caveats for the potential buyers pointed out. I doubt anyone other than enthusiasts will have any idea of its existence at this stage...

watty

Serious companies just use the ebay store front as advertising for their real website as eBay is more expensive if you sell any worthwhile amount.

As I said earlier my humour circuitry has failed.

gerrymartin

ninja900 wrote: »

It is nothing to do with Saorsat. Just happens to come from the same satellite.

So you "know" that Onwave and RTE have NOT been cooperating in getting Saorsat up and running and indeed that Onwave have NOT been working closely with "Walker" to develop a Saorsat approved receiver with pvr functionality among other things?