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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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    #1832
    lawhec
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,757 ✭✭✭lawhec


    ninja900 wrote: »
    It's an advantage only up to the point that an interfering transmission can cause trouble, analogue Band I was a particular problem on occasion in summertime with west of Ireland viewers being treated to Spanish programming! I wonder would DTT cause such problems if it were used on VHF - most likely it would just be regarded as noise, and therefore ignored, if the local transmission is strong enough - but in heavy trophospheric ducting could a far distant DTT transmission obliterate a local one?

    All of this is less of an issue on UHF analogue than VHF, I suppose we'll see how it works out on DTT. The generally lower transmission powers should help in that regard.
    VHF Bands I & III have their own characteristics, Band I is vulnerable to Sporadic E and is much more affected by man-made noise, and also requires quite broad aerials. The advantage however was huge coverage areas for very modest power outputs - the BBC's 405 line TV service was able to cover more than 80% of the UK population with just six transmitters.

    The Republic of Ireland actually does have VHF Band III DTT allocations assigned to them alongside T-DAB in the same band, but has no apparent plans to currently use them.


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    #1833
    The Cush
    Registered Users Posts: 15,505 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    lawhec wrote: »
    Band III, Germany has been using it to a limited extent but is now phasing it out where it can (if it already hasn't)

    The two Berlin VHF muxes were switched off in mid July prior to the Aug launch of their National DAB mux - http://www.media-broadcast.com/media-broadcast/nachricht/artikel/dvb-t-frequenzwechsel-in-berlin-am-12-juli-2011.html


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    #1834
    Gerry Wicklow
    Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    ninja900 wrote: »
    ...- but in heavy trophospheric ducting could a far distant DTT transmission obliterate a local one?...

    There has certainly been plenty of this on UHF over the past few summers. A quick search through Boards will find numerous examples of people getting signals from hundreds of Kilometers away. On occasion I have had a choice of 8 diffferent BBC muxes, 2 French and 2 Spanish. In lift conditions Caradon Hill, over 200Km away, jams my local relay, 6Km away. In fairness though I must admit my aerial is the wrong polarity for the local RTÉ.


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    #1835
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Karsini wrote: »
    Correct, it was 1978 before UHF was rolled out in Ireland. Three Rock was one of the first, if not the first.

    Carn Hill, Longford was before 1978. I know because it was same channel as Scotland and one night BBC closed earlier than RTE and Divis was rebroadcasting RTE. Can't remember if 1975 or 1976. But by 1978 I wasn't working at the BBC any more. Technical steps taken to make sure it couldn't happen again.


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    #1836
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    DTT works better with multipath but much worse with co-channel interference under "lift" conditions.
    Planning DTT network is harder. VHF would be harder than UHF. Very little channel re-use possible.

    Anyone that has done UHF network planning knows the "so called White Space" networking will be a fiasco as "white space" is really a myth.


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    #1837
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    watty wrote: »
    Carn Hill, Longford was before 1978. I know because it was same channel as Scotland and one night BBC closed earlier than RTE and Divis was rebroadcasting RTE. Can't remember if 1975 or 1976. But by 1978 I wasn't working at the BBC any more. Technical steps taken to make sure it couldn't happen again.

    I'm better off saying nothing with you around. :p;)

    Richard Logue's site does claim March 1978 though. August 1978 for Three Rock.


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    #1838
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    The Cush wrote: »
    The two Berlin VHF muxes were switched off in mid July prior to the Aug launch of their National DAB mux - http://www.media-broadcast.com/media-broadcast/nachricht/artikel/dvb-t-frequenzwechsel-in-berlin-am-12-juli-2011.html

    Unfortunately a lot of Radio sets have been "crashing" due to DAB incompatibilities. Also 31 December 2011 DLF closes all MW & LW, even though people don't want DAB and neither DAB nor VHF-FM give full coverage. :(


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    #1839
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Onwave is ONLY relevant if you are so doomed that you need a Satellite Terminal for Internet. Otherwise absolutely nothing to do with Saorsat. It just happens to use the same Satellite. Your normal regular professional Satellite dish installer will be able to provide Saorsat when the service is live and LNBFs are available.


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    #1840
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Karsini wrote: »
    I'm better off saying nothing with you around. :p;)

    Richard Logue's site does claim March 1978 though. August 1978 for Three Rock.

    That could be true of course for RTE 2.

    There is no reason that RTE1 on UHF on it's own from Carn Hill, Longford. It definitely happened. People rang up BBC to complain. They rang Fanum House (RTE) with thanks :) It was News, 2nd half of film and then Soldiers' Song. It was the 1st occasion since the Carn Hill went on air that RTE went later than BBC, so the automatic rebroadcast system retransmitted it instead of seeing nothing from Scotland and closing down. In those days when we cut the BBC N.I. feed to BBC1 and BBC2 the Transmitter ALWAYS automatically tried to rebroadcast Scotland. In theory possible all the way from Crystal Palace and before ASO in Scotland was tested once a year. I forget which year was the last the whole chain worked.


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    #1841
    MikeSat
    Registered Users Posts: 17 ✭MikeSat


    Just found suppliers of new single ka lnb

    www.tradekorea.com/products_detail/p00064829/ka_band_single_lnb_application.


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    #1842
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Broken link.

    There WILL be suitable LNBFs locally at sensible price when the service is "Ready".


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    #1843
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭zg3409


    -Band Single LNB Origin

    Detailed Description Features

    All our LNBs are individually hand turned to get the best performance available for each unit. Quality and long-term reliability are also essential. Therefore are all LNBs tested according to a very extensive test program, which includes heating, cooling, waterproof testing and rigorous electrical testing. We can now offer Ka-band LNB. It have been designed to meet the demanding of new Ka-band systems being launched by industry-leading service providers.

    Model No & Frequency, Stability

    Model No Input Freq.(GHz) Output Freq.(MHz) L.O Freq.(GHz)
    SPL-210 18.0 - 18.5 950 - 1600 17.05
    SPL-215 18.127 - 18.177 950 - 1600 17.177
    SPL-220 18.2 - 18.85 950 - 1600 17.25
    SPL-230 19.2 - 19.85 950 - 1600 18.25
    SPL-240 20.2 - 20.85 950 - 1600 19.25
    SPL-250 21.2 - 21.85 950 - 1600 20.25

    NONE of these cover 20.185 as needed?


    Specifications

    Noise temperature (@ + 25 degree C) 1.8 dB max.
    Input VSWR 3.0 : 1 typ.
    Image rejection 40 dBc min.
    Conversion gain 55 dB typ.
    Output VSWR 2 : 1 typ.
    Gain flatness 6 dBp-p max.
    Gain ripple (@ per channel) + / - 1.0 dB max.
    P1dB gain compression point +5 dBm typ.
    Output impedance 75 ohms
    Leakage (@ Input port) -60 dBm max.
    L.O stability (over temp.) +/- 2.0 MHz
    Phase noise -75 dBc/Hz (@10MHz)
    Power supply + 12 to + 24V DC
    Requires current 150 mA max.
    Operating temperature -30 degree C to +60 degree C
    Storage temperature -40 degree C to +80 degree C
    Relative humidity 0% to 95% RH
    Input waveguide flange WR- 42
    IF output connector F-Type female
    Weight 162 g


    From the photo it seems to be a rectangular output LNB with a seperate 40mm Round adapter. This would be a heavier design and may cause problems for multi-lnb setups

    186955.jpg

    Things I also noticed was no mention of polarisation (Horiz/Vert/LHCP/RHCP)? or if it can be switched or is fixed.

    If you want to read the actual page go to
    http://www.tradekorea.com/

    and search for "KA LNB"

    They seem to be a Korean company.
    Are these sensitivity etc figures standard? What size dish is needed based on these numbers?


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    #1844
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    It's for VSAT (LNB for a ODU for two way Internet or other VSAT application). It's not an LNBF. It's designed for TX/RX splitter/filter and separate polarisers. Polarisation and band on the LNB on VSAT is usually fixed by mechanical assembly and choice of LNB.

    No use for ordinary domestic installations.

    When the real service is running there will be proper LNBF for domestic use.
    Are these sensitivity etc figures standard? What size dish is needed based on these numbers?
    Remember on VSAT there is a 0.5W to 10W transmitter on the uplink part of band. Performance is limited not by receiver but by dish size for transmitting from ground to Satellite. VSAT always uses much larger dishes to achieve any useful upload/uplink speed in rain especially for the more common 1W and 2W. A teleport ground station may use 20W or more on 4.8m dish. That gives an idea of why "Professional" Ku Band LNB might only be 1dB noise figure and not great sensitivity. Its filtering and lack of intermodulation is more important. The larger dish needed for TX means the RX need not be as low an NF or as sensitive. Since the RX signal can be 6dB to 9dB more than regular TV dish, it doesn't matter. More sensitivity would be pointless due to reflected signal of the transmitter and the larger dish means a 2dB NF would still outperform a sky dish with a 0.3dB NF LNBF.


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    #1845
    Peddyr
    Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭Peddyr


    Posted today by "Saorview Brian" on the Terrestrial forum - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76335397&postcount=193
    Saorview: Brian wrote: »
    Brittas Bay and Red Cross unfortunately fall into the 2% category where SAORVIEW can't reach. 97% of the population of Ireland is currently covered by DTT, and that will rise to 98% at analogue switch off on October 24th. Viewers in the Brittas Bay - Redcross areas may have received RTÉ analogue on VHF, but unfortunately UHF cannot make it in there over the mountains. Residents in those areas will have the option of SAORSAT should our tests prove successful, and should the service go ahead. More information will be available about SAORSAT in the coming months.

    Regards,

    SAORVIEW Brian.

    Note again the use of "should our tests prove successful, and should the service go ahead." The word "should" does not fill me with confidence that the 'service' will actually launch...


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    #1846
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I still don't see the issue - he's not going to confirm until the testing is complete and it's 100% given the go ahead.


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    #1847
    satwyn
    Registered Users Posts: 56 ✭✭satwyn


    so now are some rte channels active on ka 9e? have not looked lately


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    #1848
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,170 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Note again the use of "should our tests prove successful, and should the service go ahead." The word "should" does not fill me with confidence that the 'service' will actually launch...

    It's just RTE-speak for 'unless the Director-General held the chisel while the Minister chiselled the opening date into a stone tablet, I cannot tell you there is a plan to do it, even if there is'

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1849
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Peddyr wrote: »
    Posted today by "Saorview Brian" on the Terrestrial forum - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76335397&postcount=193



    Note again the use of "should our tests prove successful, and should the service go ahead." The word "should" does not fill me with confidence that the 'service' will actually launch...

    Others and I have explained this. Read up on Kremlin watching.

    It's significant he mentions it at all.

    RTE NL/RTE will not confirm officially that there is going to definitely be a service till they announce it.

    Er... Possibly with a date if we are lucky.

    There are "tests" at the minute. Until the Kremlin Montrose issue a written statement on their own site, email a press release or similar, we can't read any significance into the tests or deep significance to Brian's statements, one way or the other.

    We just have to be patient. :)


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    #1850
    Hoagy
    Registered Users Posts: 707 ✭✭✭Hoagy


    The Saorview coverage checker has this message for parts of our area -


    "We're sorry. Saorview coverage is a challenge in your area. Please consult a local aerial installer for further information. It is not possible to reach all locations by terrestrial means and RTÉNL are in the process of developing a free-to-air satellite solution 'Saorsat' which will provide coverage to any blackspots. For up to date information please check www.saorview.ie "

    I hope they're not telling porkies.


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    #1851
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭Apogee


    satwyn wrote: »
    so now are some rte channels active on ka 9e? have not looked lately

    Yes, confirmed by fkearney in this thread in case anyone missed it.


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    #1852
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,170 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Hoagy wrote: »
    The Saorview coverage checker has this message for parts of our area -


    "We're sorry. Saorview coverage is a challenge in your area. Please consult a local aerial installer for further information. It is not possible to reach all locations by terrestrial means and RTÉNL are in the process of developing a free-to-air satellite solution 'Saorsat' which will provide coverage to any blackspots. For up to date information please check www.saorview.ie "

    I hope they're not telling porkies.

    I'm surprised they said that much, to be honest!
    Presumably they wouldn't say that unless the funding and political go-ahead were in the bag, with only the engineering tests to be concluded...

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #1853
    Gerry Wicklow
    Registered Users Posts: 4,542 ✭✭✭Gerry Wicklow


    SaorView Brian has clarified things with SaorSat to some extent on the terrestrial forum.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76355219&postcount=197


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    #1854
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    That is as definitive a statement as you can expect, as I explained earlier.

    Folk just have to be patient.


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    #1855
    zg3409
    Registered Users Posts: 6,605 ✭✭✭zg3409


    I see no TV3/3E on the signal currently being transmitted
    http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html

    I wonder if RTENL will look to TV3 for extra money to be carried on this service. After all RTENL say Saorsat is a "commercial venture" and TV3 only pay to be on terrestrial.

    If TV3 is not carried before October then many people who have Saorview coverage will go for Saorview rather than a satellite only option which may be neater/simpler/better.

    Also I have been looking at Satbeams and Tooways beam "colour" suggestion website

    If you click all over the map you will see the "purple" Irish/East Scottish/French is recommended for many areas including West of Plymouth in the south west UK.

    http://finder.tooway-instal.com/fixe/pages/index.html

    This gives a good idea of where the signal is strongest and where the overlap occurs. Intersting to note it suggests that in belfast city the blue beam is stronger but of course the purple can still be picked up OK.

    Irish beam (24):
    http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6714
    Zoom in to show more detail
    This shows a lot smaller coverage than the reality.

    Scottish beam (45):
    http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6735

    French beam (22):
    http://www.satbeams.com/footprints?beam=6712

    Click on 22/24/45 to quickly switch between the three.
    The beams and tooways install manual and website seem to match.

    Assuming both the french and east scottish spot are transmitting on the same frequency (worst case) it should be possible to predict where Saorsat coverage is possible and unlikely with a fair degree of certainty. The isle of man seems slap bang in the middle.

    Regarding dish size if you click on the centre of the beam it shows EIRP level = 61 dBW and EIRP level = 55 dBW for outermost ring. This site normally lists recommended dish size when you click but does not (yet) for KA band.

    Anyone want to make up a detailed combined map with dish sizes and coverage rings including UK? We would need to make an assumption of how many dB's of signal to unwanted adjacent beam noise are realistic but this value could be plotted too. Of course best case is tooway/eutelsat avoid this frequency for adjacent beams.

    A combined map would be very helpful for our UK friends. Adjacent beam noise could just be listed until we know what works.


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    #1856
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Assuming both the french and east scottish spot are transmitting on the same frequency (worst case) it should be possible to predict where Saorsat coverage is possible and unlikely with a fair degree of certainty. The isle of man seems slap bang in the middle.
    It's been done.

    Ka needs a larger margin for rain, but the dish gain is close to 3dB more (x 2 gain) than same dish used for Ku Band.
    Double dish size gives about 6dB more each time (x4 gain).
    A combined map would be very helpful for our UK friends
    Been on Techtir for months.

    Basically N.I. "works" and maybe I.O.M. (due to high FEC used)
    Welsh / Devon similar to terrestrial overspill for people with quad 21 element array on big pole.
    Possible some Cornish.

    Any Scottish coverage unlikely.
    Any English coverage west of Devon or North of Wales very unlikely.

    If there was no French beam any dish in London would be nearly teleport sized and need 24x 7 driven elevation motor. Possibly nearly 4m in rain. Possibly 2m to 3m in clear sky.

    No published map shows the "true" spot size. The beam outlines are predicated on maximum interference between spots of same polarity and band. (just two of each re-used).

    But we knew that was likely the case over a year ago. RTE are apparently "happy" with the coverage, but as to the specifics of what that means we are unlikely to ever know.

    Really there is nothing to do now till RTE make an announcement and the Domestic LNBFs are available.


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    #1857
    Apogee
    Registered Users Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭Apogee


    zg3409 wrote: »
    I see no TV3/3E on the signal currently being transmitted

    I wonder if RTENL will look to TV3 for extra money to be carried on this service. After all RTENL say Saorsat is a "commercial venture" and TV3 only pay to be on terrestrial.

    If TV3 is not carried before October then many people who have Saorview coverage will go for Saorview rather than a satellite only option which may be neater/simpler/better.

    As they are still in the testing phase, and considering that TV3/3e were relatively late appearing on Saorview as well, I wouldn't read too much into their absence at this stage.


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    #1858
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,305 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    Apogee wrote: »
    As they are still in the testing phase, and considering that TV3/3e were relatively late appearing on Saorview as well, I wouldn't read too much into their absence at this stage.
    Also, if it's to back up the saorview network, they'd have to be included I'd have thought.
    watty wrote:
    Welsh / Devon similar to terrestrial overspill for people with quad 21 element array on big pole.
    Possible some Cornish.
    Is this not a potential issue? A dish would be much less effort than a quad array.


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    #1859
    chris76
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭chris76


    Guy's is the service live at the moment ive been trying to pick it up today with no joy?


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    #1860
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    There are only tests. There is no actual Service.


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    #1861
    chris76
    Registered Users Posts: 33 ✭chris76


    watty wrote: »
    There are only tests. There is no actual Service.
    Thanks Watty


This discussion has been closed.
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