RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

mickko

azzeretti wrote: »

Of course, tax the little people - make anyone with dish pay a tax, that will work great. It would be better to base the tax on the lenght of cable you are using, number of LNBs or, hey, what about putting a "standby gauge" on everyones Sky box and tax them for the number of minutes they leave their box on when nobody is watching it - we'll drag this country back to it's former glory, leave it to us!

VRT on cars dont make much sense either, so you're suggestions could be up for some great Dail debating.:D

tlaavtech

This is drifting off-topic but on the VAT on Sky bit:

I am no accountant, but I believe that since Sky sell into Ireland, it is legal for them to charge the Irish VAT rate instead of the UK VAT rate for Isish customers. If they list it as a service rather than a product, the Irish VAT rate is 13%.

This way everybody wins:

1). Sky get to lower prices (or keep the VAT difference)
2) The Government earns revenue - provided the taxman thinks about which side his bread is buttered on and accepts it as a service on the basis that something is better than nothing!

The only loser is the UK government for whom the Irish tax on Sky subs is miniscule in any case.

Anybody know what VAT rate UPC charge? Even if it allowed UPC to change their VAT rate from 21% to 13%, it is still a net increase in the VAT take from subscription telly!

Simples

[Now how quickly can people point out a huge flaw in my theory :rolleyes:]

Apogee

rlogue wrote: »

I live in SE England and will not get a signal at all on the basis of the French spot beam wiping out the Irish spot beam signal.

FWIW I wouldn't go reading too much into the published footprint map. Even if the spotbeams are in the right location, I seriously doubt the colour coding is accurate. I'd say the map is more of an 'artist's impression' rather than a set of engineering blueprints.

In particular, I find it hard to imagine they would use just 4 different frequencies when the spotbeams are so tight and quite close together - the possibility of interference is quite high, I'd suspect. So at a minimum, 4x freqs but different polarities for the spot over Ireland vs. the spot over SE England. Or more likely, >4 frequencies in use.

There's hope yet!

watty

This may be true but ...

The bad news, is that I can tell you as an RF/Comms engineer it's just possible with 3 frequencies. Four works better, and so no accident I think that they use four colours. In fact four is the minimum and maximum frequencies needed if the layout is not perfectly regular.

There is proof too...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_color_theorem

The spots of the same frequency can overlap... as much as 75%

So the spots don't stop suddenly. N.I. will be perfectly covered, but with gradually decreasing power.

If you consider the SNR needed for sufficiently low BER for the FEC to give acceptable picture (Eb/No actually), then the overlap of the neighbour of same frequency has to be part of that SNR. Since the spots are the same power and from same source, rain or dish size is irrelevent as long as the (desired signal) / (noise + unwanted) is high enough.

Thus you can calculate that the spots can infact completely overlap, as long as the reduction in power of the unwanted spot of same frequency is "enough".

Thus if 44cm needed at edge of drawn line on map, if the other spot didn't exist, maybe a 1.1m dish would work at the center of the other "same frequency" possible spot.

Also if 44cm was "edge", perhaps 40cm is the same in the middle of the spot.


Eurobird Spot A 43cm dish is fine in London, 65cm in Athlone, but extreme SW Ireland may need 75cm to 80cm, same as Iceland. Greece/ West Turkey need large dish, Eastern Turkey a Huge dish.


Multiple spots on Kasat, but no "EIRP contours" shown

Since Ka same size dish does a beam 4 times smaller area as Ku, we can guess the contours. It's possible in Athlone a smaller dish (30cm?) is fine compared to Dublin

BTW, it's most unlikely Kasat has 80 dishes, or one dish. It likely uses the "multiple LNBs" on a single" dish type of arrangement for the feeds and has maybe two to three dishes.

Also the 28.2 is obvious elliptical pattern as the angle from 6W down middle of Ireland. At 9E, the kasat is more elevated (by 9 degrees, so a less elliptical pattern. But certainly not circles.

Apogee

The theory is all well and fine, but successfully designing and building a transmit antenna with multiple, tightly focussed spotbeams arranged so closely together is another matter.

Contrast it with the Anik-F2 footprint where there is a much larger margin for error, and they use 8 different frequencies.

watty

You could be correct.

But if they used 8 frequencies then the capacity per spot at 850Mbps would seem high as only 1/8th rather than 1/2 (two bands + two polarisations) of whatever amount of band there is.

I agree, we are only guessing. But we know that 4 "frequencies" are technically possible (actually two frequencies and two polarisations).

It will be interesting Feb/March (if all goes well) and testing commences. I assuming that if they are now saying Dec/Jan instead of former Q3 2010, that Jan/Feb launch is more likely. Then it takes a few weeks to reach correct position.

70Gbps quoted capacity is certainly all spots, hence my 850Mbps per spot. You won't manage the Earth Station with cheap gear as they suggest 10 to 12 = min of almost 6Gbps per Earth Station on average.

Apogee

From 2005 issue of Tele-satellite - low cost solution to the 19 degree spacing issue.

Apogee

Also Emme Esse 'ClarkAlign' comes in 85cm and 100cm sizes and claims up to 40 degree span.





http://www.emmeesse.it/

Apogee

I suspect it may be just a rebranded Jonsa, but also a Maximum E-85 Multifeed, which is a brand more readily sourced in Europe.



http://www.kjaerulff1.com/downloadfile.aspx?did=393

€62 on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.de/MAXIMUM-T-85-Multifocus-Multifeed-Antenne-E85-T85-E-85-/180504601967

watty

Interesting. But it might not be stable enough for Ka Band.

It's quite large at 71 x 90cm. That's roughly 75cm for Ku and gain/beam of about a 1.4m or bigger on Ku, for a ka LNB. Aligning actual 75cm to 80cm very challenging for Ka Band.

Compared to a 50cm dish for Sky and a separate unobtrusive 44cm boxed cassegrain dish for Kasat.

Some testing and measurements needed once kasat is available for test.

A lovely alternative to Wavefrontier T90 or T55 though for more limited arc if it's cheap.

Remember folks. At Ka on same size dish compared to Ku any wind shake is twice as bad, gain is nearly 4 times more and alignment has to be twice as good. Mesh has to be 1/2 as big and surface accuracy twice as good.

Apogee

Are you my shadow or something?

watty

I just happened bye, just now after finishing "tea". I'm not stalking, honest

Apogee

If you look at the dishes used for Ka-band HD television in the States, then I don't see any problem whatsoever with the design of the dishes above.

scruffy66

The purpose of having an integrated system, FTA through satellite and freeview is so everybody in the country that pays a TV license fee, has the opportunity to have quality digital RTE'S.

It is not to compete with SKY or UPC.
If more people move from sky/upc all the better but that's just a by product of having a more choice to go FTA.

I dont think RTE can take themselves off SKY, even if they wanted to but as has been suggested they could charge SKY/UPC for the privilege for having them on their formats.

This development gives RTE a lot more independence.

Id have to say some of the more technical posts as to how this saorsat system possibly might work have been very informative, so thanks to watty and some of the other lads for their posts, Im sure its going to be interesting to see how the analogue switch off unfolds.

watty

There is nothing wrong with bigger dishes except
1) If the power and spot size is for a very small dish, you might overload LNA
2) Bigger are harder to align. Proper meter recommended.
3) Bigger has more wind loading.

The DirecTV Ka is circular polarised and not a spot beam. Probably needs bigger dish and needs no LNB skew adjustment.

For a new install from scratch, the 71 x 90cm / 80cm / 85cm multifeed might be ideal, especially in West and South West where actually the Sky 65cm has a poor rain margin compared to Athlone or Dublin.

I'd point it maybe at 23.5E or 28.2E as freesat needs more signal and use the Kasat LNB as the more offset one.

I'll even try kasat on an existing 65cm sky Zone 2, but mesh might be too rough.

An ordinary 85cm dish can be pointed at aboout 16E and receive 13E to 28.2E fine. Though for Ku, 10E is mad on such a set up, I'll see what Kasat signal/Quality is like, since it's an Ireland Spot beam and needs a much smaller dish than sky, maybe a regular solid 60cm dish will do for 28.E and 9E.

I'll have a look see if any of my modelling software gives answers.

I think it's all very positive. Apogee.

• There are obviously cheaper & prettier alternatives to Wavefrontier. (Good work finding them!)
• A small boxed cassegrain can be added unobtrusively to existing 28.2E installation, unlikely to fall foul of "one dish rule"
• Maybe even an offset bracket will work on a regular dish or even a sky Zone2

Once the Kasat is up we can quickly test all the possible configurations with a professional meter and have a list that suits different situations.

I will make a longer bar for my 90/95 cm Triax, as the "off the shelf" Triax multiLNB holder is maybe a tad short for 28.2E to 9E.

Is 10E Ku still running anything? I had analogue on 10E a million years ago.

Bottom line: I think there will be multiple "not too expensive" solutions to getting Freesat + Saorsat, or even Sky + Saorsat (Likely Sky content won't have extra Saorsat content)

Apogee

1) It's not Goonhilly.
2) Aligning a dish is not brain surgery. Even the Yanks manage to do it.
3) There's wind in America too. They seem to cope.

dfdream

Watty,

This is probably answered elsewhere but whats the story with KASAT.

Will these spot beams replace all current beams on most other sats in time to come.

Will the motorised dish scanning the arc be a thing of the past....

One final thing I assume all the planned channels will be available on DTT incl HD in advance of KASAT. Will the extra channels incl HD be on Sky Platform.

D

watty

dfdream wrote: »

[1]This is probably answered elsewhere but whats the story with KASAT.
Will these spot beams replace all current beams on most other sats in time to come.
Will the motorised dish scanning the arc be a thing of the past....

Not for a long time. The trend is for smaller spots (Astra 2D, Eurobird 1 spot, Amos sats etc) and Ka lets operator have 1/4 spot size if all else is equal, thus 1/2 size dish for customer. It makes "rights" issues less thorny and creates more capacity (x20 easily) by frequency reuse.
There will be no change to current services till End Of Life of Satellite(s). It's likely there will always be some Wide beam Ku, especially for feeds/OB and larger countries.
Again this was discussed earlier. We saw this before in move from C-band to Ku Band (older C-band cover 1/3rd Earth with beam!).

Smaller beams need bigger dish on Satellite or higher frequency (L -> C -> X, ku -> K -> Ka etc) on same size dish. There will always be some C-Band and Ku Band as spectrum will not be left unused. It's likely most future Ku replacements more like Astra 2D and Eurobird 1 spots than older wide band Spot. Amos ku fleet is a 4W, (nearly due south) but can't be received here.

So this is a gradual continuation of a process started 8 years ago with spots on Ku and 15 years ago with Ku DTH added to C-band head feeds.

dfdream wrote: »

[2]One final thing I assume all the planned channels will be available on DTT incl HD in advance of KASAT.

[3]Will the extra channels incl HD be on Sky Platform.

(2) As surmised earlier from RTE presentation:
The Saorsat seems to be just a copy of the DTT, thus can be used as a backup feed. DTT is from 31st Oct 2010. Sat is Q2 2011 (depends on Kasat launch and schedule). Saorsat is a clone service for people that can't get DTT (Saorview).

(3) Extremely unlikely that Sky Platform will change at all as it's entirely funded and controlled by Sky and carries content with RTE's permission. I think Sky is unlikely to fund the substantial extra carriage costs for very little extra return. Seeing as they won't pay BBC for extra EPG for Ireland for BBC3, BBC4, BBC Radio etc. RTE certainly won't fund it (at x10 the cost of running Saorsat!). I predict no change to Irish content on N.I. sub (no TV3) and Irish Sub.

Summary:

• With time (7 years to 15 years) a Motorised dish will be less useful, except for Feeds. A gradual process started years ago.
• The Irish Terrestrial and Satellite services are likely to be 100% identical. Terrestrial is first with HD. Likely Identical HD on both.
• Sky is unlikely to change, especially before Analogue Switch Off (2012 /2013). Sky is unlikely to have Irish HD until after ASO and all Sky boxes are HD.

Digifriendly

mickko wrote: »

I agree, it could only decrease Sky's numbers. How significantly, I dont know. The transmitter in Enniskillen is increasing it's power from 500W, to 11kW in 2013. You'll pick up DTT from the North on a fork probably as far South as Tipperary. The Irish consumer will have the pick of the mill between Saorsat,Saorview, FreeSat and DTT from the UK. This will not help Sky. UPC at least have BB to tie in alot of customers. Who know's, over a period of 10 years, Sky could be very much back where they started in Ireland pre-2002.

Three points to make here -
(1) There will almost certainly be restrictions in signal to the South to minimise interference as there are restrictions on ROI DTT to the north at present.
(2) Most relays in NI will carry a 'Freeview lite' service and not the full Freeview lineup.
(3) Nevertheless with the main transmitters (Divis, Brougher Mountain/Limavady) ramping up their power considerably at DSO it should be possible to pick up DTT from NI well beyond the border but Tipperary is a bit far methinks! Better to try for Welsh or SW English transmiitters there I guess.

Tony

Fair enough but as we are talking about the satellite service here would it not be better to keep discussions about DTT to the terrestrial forum?

Digifriendly wrote: »

Three points to make here -
(1) There will almost certainly be restrictions in signal to the South to minimise interference as there are restrictions on ROI DTT to the north at present.
(2) Most relays in NI will carry a 'Freeview lite' service and not the full Freeview lineup.
(3) Nevertheless with the main transmitters (Divis, Brougher Mountain/Limavady) ramping up their power considerably at DSO it should be possible to pick up DTT from NI well beyond the border but Tipperary is a bit far methinks! Better to try for Welsh or SW English transmiitters there I guess.

mullingar

Just on this tiny tangent of talking DTT:

A quote from Aquiva report on Brougher Mountain on the possibility of adding an extra (7th) MUX:

Brougher Mountain is planned to use channels 22, 25 and 28 for PSBs and
21, 24 and 27 for COMs. Channels 21, 24 and 27 are co-channel with Divis
PSB services, and are limited in ERP to 2kW.

Although Brougher Mountain COM is co-channel with Divis PSBs, it is not
recommended that channels 23, 26 and 29 (Divis COM channels) are used.
This is because an ERP of 10kW is required to provide service to Omagh.

So the PSB's are @ 10kw (= x20 times current power )
The COM's are @ 2kw (x4 times current power)



Now BACK TO SAT

Sam Russell

With Saorsat, as proposed, would a 'self help' type relay be possible by down converting the LNB signal to a UHF channel and then broadcasting it at a low power? Could two muxes be broadcast without having to seperate the LNB signal? If so, then maybe for a few (hundred) euro, relays could pop up all over the rural areas where no other television can reach. I]Obviously with proper sanction from those that rule over such matters[/I.

Hmm.........

Digifriendly

mullingar wrote: »

Just on this tiny tangent of talking DTT:

A quote from Aquiva report on Brougher Mountain on the possibility of adding an extra (7th) MUX:



So the PSB's are @ 10kw (= x20 times current power )
The COM's are @ 2kw (x4 times current power)



Now BACK TO SAT

Quick final comment on DTT before I quit on this particular thread - limiting some of Brougher Mountain Muxes to 2kw will severely limit reception of these across the Border. Looks like Divis will be best bet for stable reception of DTT at least in Northern part of ROI.

Tony

Enough already! Tons of this stuff on the terrestrial forum.

Digifriendly wrote: »

Quick final comment on DTT b

Manc-Red

Is the roll-out of this service on Sat confirmed date-wise yet?

watty

No. It can't be. Only a vague Q2 2011 as the satellite hasn't launched. The Satellite is complete (99.9999% certain it's Kasat) but launch date has slipped from Q3 2010 to Dec 2010/Jan 2011. So we might have test signals (not RTE) from Eutelsat by Feb or March if all goes well.

John mac

Tony

I spoke with someone at RTENL on the phone who was unable to give Technical details of the Saorsat system . Seems a little strange to announce the freq band but not confirm what satellite will be used.

Capt'n Midnight

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

I think their churn rate is 5 to 10% here and thats made up for by all the new customers that George Hook is getting them....

Don't forget that you can re-subscribe to SKY for one month. So you can get all the movies for christmas, and then cancel again. Just remember that you won't be able to watch any SKY+ stuff after you've cancelled.

Capt'n Midnight

I take it we don't need to worry about the UK FTA channels moving from Astra 2 in the near future.