RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

mickko

Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

After all, with the amount of revenue that's leaving the country every month, never mind the mind-numbing continuous advertising by Sky, and dishes destroying every housing estate in the country, Sky could really be described as an enemy of the state, particularily in these tough economic times.

Is there no possibility that the state broadcaster, and the powers to be behind them, would want to cut all ties with Sky?

Just a thought.

Sam Russell

No, but everyone with sky might find out that a simple change of box from sky+ to Freesat will give nearly everything they have (except skysports) for free. Either a DTT or Saorsat for RTE, also for free and every thing (nearly) that they get now is FREEEEEE.

Then sky might be worried.:)

Mr McBoatface

mickko wrote: »

Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

After all, with the amount of revenue that's leaving the country every month, never mind the mind-numbing continuous advertising by Sky, and dishes destroying every housing estate in the country, Sky could really be described as an enemy of the state, particularily in these tough economic times.

Is there no possibility that the state broadcaster, and the powers to be behind them, would want to cut all ties with Sky?

Just a thought.

I've had similar thought myself. In my opinion it's a scandal SKY charge UK VAT to customers in Ireland and then don't transfer the VAT they charged the Irish Revenue.

However RTE have a huge customer base on Sky and risk losing them should RTE leave SKY, no doubt this would have a negative affect on advertising revenue. So while it may be possible I don't think it would happen.

Tony

jobyrne30 wrote: »

it's a scandal SKY charge UK VAT to customers in Ireland and then don't transfer the VAT they charged the Irish Revenue.

Are you sure about this? I know amazon pay Irish VAT

watty

Installer VAT is Irish.

Technically if you have more than XXX Irish Sales you need to register an Irish Office if you are an EU company and then pay Irish VAT. Sky allegedly don't do this.

Kotek Besar

It's definitely UK VAT that is charged on Sky ROI subs.

watty

mickko wrote: »

Is there any possibility that RTE may no longer be available via the Sky platform on 28.2 after a launch of Saorsat?

It costs RTE nothing and means Sky subscribers automatically get RTE, So RTE won't want to end it.

Sky will continue to supply it for same reason.

But don't expect the extra TV Irish TV, or the new Digital Radio on Sky as it's too expensive for RTE and Sky won't bother as viewing numbers not high enough. I don't expect RTE HD on Sky for some years.

more than 25% of Sky setbox viewing is RTE (highest)
2% is Sky 1 (highest pay channel rating!)
1% to 2% is all Sky Sports. But for the people paying, it's an important 1% to 2%.

mickko

jobyrne30 wrote: »

However RTE have a huge customer base on Sky and risk losing them should RTE leave SKY, no doubt this would have a negative affect on advertising revenue. So while it may be possible I don't think it would happen.

If RTE left Sky, practically everyone receiving it from Sky would change to Saorsat or DTT. The vast majority of people in this country would choose RTE over any other channels. I cant see how this would have any affect on advertising revenue if the viewing figures are the same.

The only thing I can see change for the better is that a large amount of money being received by the British government would remain in circulation in this country, where it's desparately needed at the moment. It would also help create jobs and VAT for the government through Saorsat installations, higher subscribers for UPC who pay Irish VAT, etc, etc.

I could understand some points made here if RTE were a subscription based private company, but it's the state broadcaster. For me to have to pay a foreign company, who make no contribution that I know of to the revenue, is so mind boggingly bizarrely incorrect you'd get a pain in the head thinking about. Typical Irish incompetance. Does this happen in any other country?

We also pay a much higher subscription for the same packages as people in the UK, and there's a price increase in September. Sky must love the push-over Irish. The least they should be doing is returning the UK VAT paid by us. RTE seem just to have laid down and given Sky whatever they want.

It's as simple as this, the state have given Sky dominance in the market place on a silver plate, and they're laughing all the way to the bank. Meanwhile, our government are seeking every way to sqeeze every cent out of us to plug holes that they made.

Does anyone know the figures being sent to Sky every year? Surely it must be in the hundreds of millions, if not heading for a billion. It's a long shot, but it is possibe that Soarsat could be a way to call an end to this in the long run.

watty

mickko wrote: »

I
Does anyone know the figures being sent to Sky every year? Surely it must be in the hundreds of millions, if not heading for a billion. It's a long shot, but it is possibe that Soarsat could be a way to call an end to this in the long run.

Between €180M and €500M

When I chatted to RTE about Satellite in 1998, they said it's just Cable TV without a wire. Well, since then BBC, ITV, C4 and Five are FTA, not just DWTV or BBC World News or S4C~digidol.

But for sure Sky is "just" a wireless version of UPC, from RTE's point of view this is true, So I expect the basic selection of Irish TV and Radio to continue as they are on UPC and Sky.

But with Freesat HD (UK Free TV) and Saorsat, there is now a FTA Satellite alternative for people too far from East/ South East Coast and Border for UK Freeview via aerial.

Apogee

Just reading up on Anik F2 which the Wildblue service is built upon and is the closest equivalent to Ka-sat currently in operation.

36 spot beams. Unlike Hotbird, they use only one polarity to receive (RHCP). And the frequency band is the same 19.7-20.2GHz with 62.5MHz channel spacing.



http://www.cpe-labs.com/PDFs/WildBluePDFs/ProductsAndServicesPrimer.pdf
http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/space/bss/factsheets/702/anik_f2/anik_f2.html

icdg

mickko wrote: »

If RTE left Sky, practically everyone receiving it from Sky would change to Saorsat or DTT.

That won't happen. It would only be true if receiving RTÉ was the main reason people subscribed to pay-TV. Its not. The driver of pay-TV historically was the availablity of the UK terrestrial channels, which won't be on Saorsat but are on Astra. To that we can now add Sky Sports as a substantial incentive for people to subscribe to pay-TV also.

Pay-TV services have been successful without RTÉ before. Sky Digital had already acquired a substantial subscriber base in Ireland prior to RTÉ becoming available via Astra. MMDS also managed to acquire to acquire a substantial subscriber base with no RTÉ on it. Its because RTÉ is not a driver for pay-TV. If RTÉ were to leave Astra, it wouldn't cause people to drop their pay-TV service. Likely they would adopt Saorview as an **addition** to their Sky service, not a replacement. Its also likely that if this situation came to pass, blind eyes would be thrown to people putting up both Astra and Saorsat dishes in order to recieve both.

The argument is moot in any case. Realistically, RTÉ is no more likely to remove its channels from Sky Digital than it is from UPC. The driver for RTÉ to go on Astra was twofold (a) Sky gave it free carriage (b) studies had shown that while ITV was not on the Sky EPG - as it was not initally, cause ITV wouldn't pay Sky - Sky viewers started to watch ITV less because of the effort to change channel (which isn't that substantial) and because its programmes weren't listed in the EPG. RTÉ's fear was that the same phenomeon would effect it if it did not go on the Sky EPG. I don't think that fear is gone away suddenly because it is launching Saorsat.

watty

Apogee wrote: »

Just reading up on Anik F2 which the Wildblue service is built upon and is the closest equivalent to Ka-sat currently in operation.

There is a 2nd satellite with a further maybe 27 beams. For Wildblue's Tooway service.

WildBlue has designed a state-of-the-art Ka-band communications system aboard our own WildBlue-1 satellite and Telesat's Anik F2 satellite, covering the contiguous U.S. with a total of 66 spot beams. Our satellites occupy a geostationary orbit 22,500 miles above the equator at 111.1° West Longitude. WildBlue chose the 20/30 GHz Ka-band frequencies and a spot-beam architecture as the most efficient and effective technology platform to offer broadband via satellite.

Since about 2005/2006. I think Viasat designed the DOCSIS VSAT (two way terminal).


The Ka on Hotbird 6 is some sort of prototype to test something else, hence only four beams.

There is also some ka test at 23.5 E

DirecTV ka Band in States is using a slightly different scheme (circularly polarised) and unlike Tooway is mainly TV.

Viasat 1, 110 spots, end 2011 is also USA and mainly for Tooway. Compared to Marcopolo 1 it's amazing capacity


Other news
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/07/08/french-plan-help-with-aso/

French plan help with ASO
By Robert Briel
Published: July 8, 2010 09.23 Europe/London

The French government has published a study on helping people living in areas not covered by digital terrestrial television. The government has already implemented a wide monitoring mechanism to ensure that all French people, wherever they live, will continue to receive television after the transition to all digital.

The plan will involve mix of subsidies, Satellite alternatives, extra small TV sites and Cable.

watty

icdg wrote: »

That won't happen. It would only be true if receiving RTÉ was the main reason people subscribed to pay-TV. Its not. The driver of pay-TV historically was the availablity of the UK terrestrial channels, which won't be on Saorsat but are on Astra. To that we can now add Sky Sports as a substantial incentive for people to subscribe to pay-TV also..

I agree
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=67021491&postcount=338

Though Sky Sports is less than 2% of viewing, it's important viewing and the reason for over half (maybe 3/4) of subscriptions.

The "2nd" dish won't be an issue as MMDS isn't and a Cassegrain boxed dish is less like a dish even than MMDS and smaller. The 9 degree higher elevation and closer to south may make mounting easier too.

mickko

icdg wrote: »

Pay-TV services have been successful without RTÉ before.

Not so. They were somewhat successful to a certain point, probably driven by Sky Sports. I dont have the figures to hand, but I specifically remember reading in the SBP, probably around 2003, that Sky had released subs figures for the financial year after the release of RTE and the allocation of the four channels to slots 1-4 on the EPG, and their subs had exploded several fold. From a professional point of view, I'm only well aware of the inpact that Sky subs have had on Cable subs in this country since RTE joined forces with Sky.

icdg wrote: »

Likely they would adopt Saorview as an **addition** to their Sky service, not a replacement. Its also likely that if this situation came to pass, blind eyes would be thrown to people putting up both Astra and Saorsat dishes in order to recieve both.

I agree, but the idea of continuing to pay Sky for a load of repeats could become stale in the mouth for alot of punters, particularily when they realise what they can get for free. Receiving free services, from 2 sats, could see alot of people ditch their Sky payment over time. After the RTE's, BBC's and other FTA's, Sky is pretty much useless except for Sports. The Premiership is one of the real driving forces Sky have, but I'd imagine only a small proportion of Sky subs are really interested in it. I think Watty meationed 2% in a previous post.

I'm looking at this from a more financial perspective. For arguments sake, lets say there's 500million leaving the country every year to Sky. That's 1 billion every 2 years. That's up there with the type of figures being thrown around when we start talking about Anglo, Levies increasing, introduction of property tax, etc, etc, etc. Surely even half this figure would be worth trying to save. This is of course very much in the interest of the state and those genuinely trying to sort out our financial woes. Thats if the powers that be can see that, which I sure they probably cant.

icdg wrote: »

RTÉ's fear was that the same phenomeon would effect it if it did not go on the Sky EPG. I don't think that fear is gone away suddenly because it is launching Saorsat.

I dont think this fear exists at all within RTE. They're just interested in the easy way out, and Sky gave them the easy offer, to Skys benefit of course. Things in Britain are different. ITV needed to be on the EPG because there is more competition from other British Braodcasters. People in Ireland want RTE and will want it no-matter which platform it is on. Sky are powerful. But RTE in Ireland is more powerful than Sky. Is'nt this why Sky pay their carraige charges.
RTE available only through DTT and Saorsat could be the way of the future if someone had the balls to do it, and I for one think it could be a roaring success, and break Sky's dominance here, which would be both financially and socially better for us in the long run.

watty

Sky are not totally dominant. UPC is strong competition. They have about 40% of homes each, but UPC is now recovering from the MMDS losses to Sky and allege 70,000 Sky customers have switched (sounds high to me).

Since c4 and Five joined BBC& ITV unencrypted and the "Freesat" brand and boxes has launched (Almost Sky ease of use compared to generic FTA boxes) we have seen an increase in people with no desire to pay for Sky Sports switching to FTA and Freesat.

It's up to individuals to cancel Sky (or UPC and just have their phone & Broadband), or not. I think if UPC and Sky want to carry the basic station line up they should.

I think thought they should not get HD, extra channels etc and when deal with sky come for renewal RTE should be looking for a Royalty instead of Sky having the content "free" (Sky pay their carriage costs, so it's anything but "free" for Sky, but AFAIK, RTE, TV3 and TG4 get nothing). BBC gets paid by Sky because Sky puts BBC on Irish EPG.

Digifriendly

mickko wrote: »

RTE available only through DTT and Saorsat could be the way of the future if someone had the balls to do it, and I for one think it could be a roaring success, and break Sky's dominance here, which would be both financially and socially better for us in the long run.

I simply can't agree that Sky's dominance will be broken by DTT or Saorsat. Whether we like it or not they presently dominate UK and ROI. Take the release today of their coverage of the HC rugby in new season and it is unsurpassed as is their coverage of many other sports. Saorsat or RTE via DTt will not change that.

watty

I agree, Pay TV sports with exclusives and limited geographic coverage of UPC ensures that both Sky & UPC are unlikely to go below a joint 70% market.

I think at 80% the market has peaked and both Sky & UPC will offer increasing blandishments in Autumn 2011 and Especially 2012 when the will sow uncertainty about ASO.

We need a good Information campain about Saorview. The TV dealers and Installers are starting to get act together and be professional

http://www.isaa.tv/

Quality Assured satellite and aerial installations

The ISAA (Irish Satellite & Aerial Installers Association) has been formed
by professional installers all over Ireland who adhere to high standards of
workmanship and professional conduct.

Using an ISAA approved installer gives peace of mind and a trouble free
installation

We need a similar association of Knowledgeable Sales people as the British & German owned Multiples just assume here is same as UK.

We are lucky Tesco and Lidl don't ask for Sterling!

FREETV

Digifriendly wrote: »

I simply can't agree that Sky's dominance will be broken by DTT or Saorsat. Whether we like it or not they presently dominate UK and ROI. Take the release today of their coverage of the HC rugby in new season and it is unsurpassed as is their coverage of many other sports. Saorsat or RTE via DTt will not change that.

It will decrease the number of Sky customers in Ireland who had poor analogue reception up until now and had no alternative but to subscribe to Sky for proper viewing reception and recording. With Saorview going live on October 31 and the chance for the first time ever to receive crystal clear digital Irish TV then who would pay for Sky if they can use either a small aerial on a window, in an attic or a roof mounted aerial with no extra costs ever? Unless of course they were Sports fanatics or had to go for a roof aerial because of terrain to receive Saorview and weren't allowed to install one because of a reluctant/fussy Landlord. Saorsat should be another alternative for others in remote rural areas next year where Saorview cannot be received. UPC's digital television service will never come close to Sky's. Very few channels and a poor selection of channels when compared to Sky and lower bittrates through cable. Only those interested in a package deal of broadband, telephone and digital tv through UPC in order to save money or who aren't allowed to install dishes or aerials in rented accomodation to go FTA will be their dominant customer base. The majority of the population in Ireland still don't know about the DTT tests and the forthcoming Saorview and Saorsat launches yet or the amount of channels available FTA on Astra 28.2E so probably thought that Sky or UPC were their only options. I can see a huge drop in the number of Sky and UPC subscribers in about sixteen months time.

Sam Russell

watty wrote: »

We are lucky Tesco and Lidl don't ask for Sterling!

I think they would lose out if they did. UK Sterling prices are 20% to 30% cheaper.

The main problem with them is that, for us, the most important fact about TVs is whether they have MPEG4 and MHEG5. This is rarely mentioned on UK sourced products, even if they have it. I was setting up a TV for someone (an LG iirc) and it did not even have Ireland as a country setting! (Nor did it have MPEG4), but it did have a digital tuner, and Freeview that could receive 40 or so channels without subscription from an aerial.

If DTT is accepted and HD is included, and works for most people without much fuss, the sky box could be dumped in favour of Freesat so easily that I think sky could lose half its market quite quickly.

The saorsat idea is very attractive, because it is more like an aerial solution than a dish solution, and will be more acceptable in rural areas I would think, as it can be installed low down, and fed around to many tvs. I hope the satelllite makes it up to orbit.

FREETV

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think they would lose out if they did. UK Sterling prices are 20% to 30% cheaper.

The main problem with them is that, for us, the most important fact about TVs is whether they have MPEG4 and MHEG5. This is rarely mentioned on UK sourced products, even if they have it. I was setting up a TV for someone (an LG iirc) and it did not even have Ireland as a country setting! (Nor did it have MPEG4), but it did have a digital tuner, and Freeview that could receive 40 or so channels without subscription from an aerial.

If DTT is accepted and HD is included, and works for most people without much fuss, the sky box could be dumped in favour of Freesat so easily that I think sky could lose half its market quite quickly.

The saorsat idea is very attractive, because it is more like an aerial solution than a dish solution, and will be more acceptable in rural areas I would think, as it can be installed low down, and fed around to many tvs. I hope the satelllite makes it up to orbit.

You hit the nail on the head there Sam Russell, I can't see Tesco or Lidl ever charging us in Sterling even if the Euro should rise in value as a currency in the next twelve months or more. I predict between 35-40% of Sky customers will go Freesat or FTA in the next eighteen months from now and use Saorview or Saorsat for their remaining channel viewing lineup. I think that Watty was also pointing out the confusion, ignorance and lack of training and knowledge of the majority of sales people here about technology in general and specifications/technical requirements particularily with television broadcasts and services.

Macy0161

I think where sky will, and perhaps already are, begin to lose out is the multiroom. In these times, people who are getting it basically for RTE and the UK channels will begin to cop on.

However, as has been said, people don't know the options on satellite. Some people who would be far more techie than me when it comes to other elements wouldn't have known about until I mentioned it that there were free options. I don't know if there's anyone that is really going to push Freesat/ FTA. Or in the case of Freesat can anyone - are there licencing issues?

I've heard a variety of discussions on various radio shows with consumer "experts" talking about TV options (Tina Leonard on Pat Kenny for example) and they simply don't mention FTA/Freesat as an option. In fact the only time I've really heard it discussed is that time on Matt Cooper.

Sam Russell

FREETV wrote: »

I think that Watty was also pointing out the confusion, ignorance and lack of training and knowledge of the majority of sales people here about technology in general and specifications/technical requirements particularily with television broadcasts and services.

But it is worse than that. The Sony website for Ireland is based in the UK, and only refers to UK interest specifications and do not generally refer to MPEG4 and other details that are required here, even if they are in the product. Now Sony are a major manufacturer, some might say leading manufacturer. If they cannot get it right, what hope is there. All is not helped by the total silence from RTE/RTENL and the Dept of Communications about our DSO/ASO plans. They are treating the launch of DTT in October (this October) as if it was the start of installation with switch on just before ASO in Dec 2012. The retailers will up their training just before/after the surge in buying by Joe Soap, looking to find out why his old telly has just gone blank, and why did no-one tell him about it. The newspapers and other media are also silent.

By the way, where are my iodine tablets in case I need them?

channelsurfer2

one of the girls in work here rang sky last week asking to pay them 150euro to keep the "free channels"......that shows the lack of understanding of the 600000+ sky customers here who all think that they have to pay sky to get bbc and c4 etc.... I would say about 10% actually realise if they cancel they keep the free channels except rte tv3..so I cant see sky loosing 30 to 40% market share.. I think their churn rate is 5 to 10% here and thats made up for by all the new customers that George Hook is getting them....

Cantona's Collars

Pretty good point made there SAM-it's gona be the usual half arsed job of DSO in this country with a huge portion of the public misinformed at best and not having a clue at worst.At least in England they had the good sense to start advertising long before DSO so the public had an idea what to expect.
I can imagine lots of people buying new tv sets they don't even need for DTT and SAORSAT instead of a cheap STB.

mickko

FREETV wrote: »

It will decrease the number of Sky customers in Ireland who had poor analogue reception up until now and had no alternative but to subscribe to Sky for proper viewing reception and recording. With Saorview going live on October 31 and the chance for the first time ever to receive crystal clear digital Irish TV then who would pay for Sky if they can use either a small aerial on a window, in an attic or a roof mounted aerial with no extra costs ever? Unless of course they were Sports fanatics

I agree, it could only decrease Sky's numbers. How significantly, I dont know. The transmitter in Enniskillen is increasing it's power from 500W, to 11kW in 2013. You'll pick up DTT from the North on a fork probably as far South as Tipperary. The Irish consumer will have the pick of the mill between Saorsat,Saorview, FreeSat and DTT from the UK. This will not help Sky. UPC at least have BB to tie in alot of customers. Who know's, over a period of 10 years, Sky could be very much back where they started in Ireland pre-2002.

mickko

watty wrote: »

I think thought they should not get HD, extra channels etc and when deal with sky come for renewal RTE should be looking for a Royalty instead of Sky having the content "free"

Agreed strongly, Sky should pay royalties to RTE based on their profitability. I'm sure IMRO would jump at the opportunity to collect that on their behalf.

I often thought a Tax on having a Sky dish on your home could work well!
If Sky are'nt paying their way, force it from those sending it to them.

Mr McBoatface

mickko wrote: »

I often thought a Tax on having a Sky dish on your home could work well!
If Sky are'nt paying their way, force it from those sending it to them.

That wouldn't work at all, how could that be enforced ? How are the authorities to tell if the dish is being used for sky or free to air satellite?

We pay enough TV tax - the TV licence. If the government wanted any extra revenue from Sky they should get them to switch VAT on Irish subs to Irish rates payable to the Irish exchequer. I doubt the government has the stomach to force such an issue, they are great at giving money away to big institutions and not so great on collecting it from them.

azzeretti

mickko wrote: »

Agreed strongly, Sky should pay royalties to RTE based on their profitability. I'm sure IMRO would jump at the opportunity to collect that on their behalf.

I often thought a Tax on having a Sky dish on your home could work well!
If Sky are'nt paying their way, force it from those sending it to them.

Of course, tax the little people - make anyone with dish pay a tax, that will work great. It would be better to base the tax on the lenght of cable you are using, number of LNBs or, hey, what about putting a "standby gauge" on everyones Sky box and tax them for the number of minutes they leave their box on when nobody is watching it - we'll drag this country back to it's former glory, leave it to us!

channelsurfer2

mickko wrote: »

I agree, it could only decrease Sky's numbers. How significantly, I dont know. The transmitter in Enniskillen is increasing it's power from 500W, to 11kW in 2013. You'll pick up DTT from the North on a fork probably as far South as Tipperary. The Irish consumer will have the pick of the mill between Saorsat,Saorview, FreeSat and DTT from the UK. This will not help Sky. UPC at least have BB to tie in alot of customers. Who know's, over a period of 10 years, Sky could be very much back where they started in Ireland pre-2002.

will this actually be the case re eniskillen? i though that it might reach some parts of the midlands but not that far south?

Sam Russell

mickko wrote: »

I often thought a Tax on having a Sky dish on your home could work well!
If Sky are'nt paying their way, force it from those sending it to them.

There is a tax on sky dishes.

It is called VAT and is collected by sky and given to the UK gov. In the upcoming budget, VAT should be imposed on sky, and sky could them get UK gov to drop the demand on them. 700,000 installation times €400/year equals €280 million/year. 21% of that equals €60 million/year. What will Brian be looking for in December - €3 billion, well there is 2% of it right there, and no-one discommoded atall.