What do new bands have to do?

Fabo

the rest of your post i agree with and what is really badly needed are different labels concentrating on different genres. there are so many genres that labels must be swamped with an awful lot of music. but a beatles type band shouldnt be competing with a heavy metal band...they are totally different types of music.

until somebody sorts that out it will be like banging your head against the wall trying to sell "good songs" whatever genre they are in.

of course, labels, like investors, like a wide portfolio, so it will take someone with plenty of dough who just wants to set up a label for the fun of it....

drumdrum

Fabo wrote: »

In the western scale, there are 12 notes to which very few sound consonant together or when moving form one to the other. If we were to copyright interval progressions, the music industry would of died out centuries ago....

time and time again the beatles proved you could keep writing new stuff. even before pepper people were saying there's no way they can keep writing good tunes. they had finished touring and that was the end of them, but instead they went and made some of the greatest music.

the fact that there are only 12 notes is only one side of it...tempo, how long the notes are held is another side of it. just the other day i noticed day in the life is a re-write of help but the notes are held slower so nobody notices...

food for thought

Oh I know that and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Love the Beatles!!

Its the better ones that can take the same interval progressions but can make them sound fresh and new are the ones that really deserve the title of great songwriter. Seriously, I been to open mic nights before where there was very little to distinguish the songs that were being performed except for the singers voice. The songs themselves were drab and forgettable.....its very hard to sound original, especially in a market where virtually everything has been done (to some extent) before.

Fandango

Quote from one of my band members when it was pointed out a song of ours sounds a bit like a Beatles tune:

"C F and G arent just for the f**kin Beatles ya know!"

Hehe, thought it was priceless!!!!

Listening to A Day In The Life here now, you sure its a re-write of Help? Trying to imagine a slower paced Help alongside but i cant hear it

Fabo

Fandango wrote: »

Quote from one of my band members when it was pointed out a song of ours sounds a bit like a Beatles tune:

"C F and G arent just for the f**kin Beatles ya know!"

Hehe, thought it was priceless!!!!

Listening to A Day In The Life here now, you sure its a re-write of Help? Trying to imagine a slower paced Help alongside but i cant hear it

well your band member is right of course !

A day in the life has the same chords at the start of the verse - A C#m F#m D but changes quicker than Help. However, the rhythm is much slower...

Its almost impossible to hear from the records which is the beauty of it.

Fandango

Fabo wrote: »

well your band member is right of course !

A day in the life has the same chords at the start of the verse - A C#m F#m D but changes quicker than Help. However, the rhythm is much slower...

Its almost impossible to hear from the records which is the beauty of it.

Thats it exactly then, same notes but completely different song. Im sure you could write a few hundred songs with those chords and they can all sound completely different. Every song were all ever gonna write will be influenced by someone or some song, even if we dont realise it. Nothing wrong with it once your not actively plagerising (spelling me arse, ya know the word lol) it.

A Primal Nut

What chords you play is largely irrelevant. Its important but it isn't what makes the song sound good and certainly isn't what makes the song unique. All too many bands simply stand there strumming chord progressions and because the chords sound good together they think they have written a good song, when in actual fact its boring and sounds like a million other bands. Some bands can take typical chord progressions and make great songs out of it, like Oasis, but its rare.

Its much better to write a great guitar riff and use that as a hook for a song. Unfortunately its very rare to hear guitar riffs these days. Usually they are just chord progressions which the artist calls guitar riffs!

Anyway thats off topic; the most important thing an artist can do is write good songs that set them apart in some way. Too many focus on gigging constantly, networking, promotion, etc and forget about the songwriting aspect after the beginning.

raindog.promo

A Primal Nut wrote: »

What chords you play is largely irrelevant. Its important but it isn't what makes the song sound good and certainly isn't what makes the song unique. All too many bands simply stand there strumming chord progressions and because the chords sound good together they think they have written a good song, when in actual fact its boring and sounds like a million other bands. Some bands can take typical chord progressions and make great songs out of it, like Oasis, but its rare.

Its much better to write a great guitar riff and use that as a hook for a song. Unfortunately its very rare to hear guitar riffs these days. Usually they are just chord progressions which the artist calls guitar riffs!

Anyway thats off topic; the most important thing an artist can do is write good songs that set them apart in some way. Too many focus on gigging constantly, networking, promotion, etc and forget about the songwriting aspect after the beginning.

There's also a lot of bands bringing in the traditionally "non-rock" instruments into their sound, trumpets, glockenspiels, violin.........

Check out our very own "The Jimmy Cake" or a fantastic band called "Tortoise"

MilanPan!c

Howjadoo wrote: »

I know what you mean man. I found this Dublin band recently and they're bringing guitar back! Check them out man they're a gem.


Try "Weak in the knees" out you won't regret it!

http://www.myspace.com/milkmyspacemusic

hmm... I don't know about all of that... aren't you in that band?

raindog.promo

Howjadoo wrote: »

I know what you mean man. I found this Dublin band recently and they're bringing guitar back! Check them out man they're a gem.

Of course you found it. Judging by your previous posts, you're in it.

I also found a great band consisting of myself.
Links are in my signature.

A Primal Nut

Howjadoo wrote: »

A Primal Nut "Its much better to write a great guitar riff and use that as a hook for a song. Unfortunately its very rare to hear guitar riffs these days."

I know what you mean man. I found this Dublin band recently and they're bringing guitar back! Check them out man they're a gem.


Try "Weak in the knees" out you won't regret it!

http://www.myspace.com/milkmyspacemusic

I did regret it.:D

Ok I'm kidding its not bad but I wouldn't call it "bringing guitar back."

Shakey_jake

Howjadoo wrote: »

A Primal Nut "Its much better to write a great guitar riff and use that as a hook for a song. Unfortunately its very rare to hear guitar riffs these days."

I know what you mean man. I found this Dublin band recently and they're bringing guitar back! Check them out man they're a gem.


Try "Weak in the knees" out you won't regret it!

http://www.myspace.com/milkmyspacemusic

Sounds like my 90 year old mother in law singing on crack cocaine tbh!

louloumc89

All the advice and opinions in this thread are really interesting. Just took them in in one big read, but some really great points. I'm always looking online for advice on what to do next with my band.

Here's what we did anyways. We got together less than a year ago. Started writing and gigging straight away, supporting bands and taking any gig we got. We now have some early recordings of songs, but one professional recording. The professional recording has gotten loads for us. I think you need to have at least one decent recording to send people. We've been played on a bunch of online stations, podcasts, irish radio including 2fm...just that one decent recording. We wouldn't send our other songs to people coz we're not happy with the way they sound.

I think what some of you were saying earlier about needing money to get a leg off the ground is so true. We're all students in my band, so therefore broke. We gig and get a little money for supporting, or if we organise our own gigs, or maybe get booked for the odd paying gig, but not enough to do anything with. Just cover travel and that. Money is such an obstacle, we can't promote ourselves, can't book venues, can't buy decent gear to play with, can't get proper recordings, can't make cd's.

It's so difficult to know what to do next. We're saving up to get some more songs recorded professionally. Then we're goign to send a 3 track cd to everybody we possibly can, with three recordings we're happy with. We gig a lot, we promote ourselves online a bit, we email people, we get support slots every chance we get, we're playing some festivals...What else is there.

I think once you reach a certain point (we're there now I think), you just need to try get better and hope somebody sees something in you and wants to make money from it.

Waking-Dreams

Playing in a band can be hard work if you're constantly broke. But looking to the band as a way to make you some money when you're already broke puts a psychological pressure/expectancy on you to produce a certain kind of music.

louloumc89 wrote: »

It's so difficult to know what to do next. We're saving up to get some more songs recorded professionally. Then we're goign to send a 3 track cd to everybody we possibly can, with three recordings we're happy with. We gig a lot, we promote ourselves online a bit, we email people, we get support slots every chance we get, we're playing some festivals...What else is there.

I think once you reach a certain point (we're there now I think), you just need to try get better and hope somebody sees something in you and wants to make money from it.

You say, you hope someone will see something in you that they can profit from, but you need to be sure it actually is something commercial and not your style of music that you think would be commercial if given the 'right promotion', that some investor needs to see for himself and be convinced of your greatness.

Try to enjoy the journey, not the destination. Because if there's anything I've learned about successful people, it's that they get their energy and drive from the pursuit, not attainment of goals. Sure, when we hit a goal it's a great feeling BUT as soon as we achieve some distinction, we can only relish in the feelings for so long until our brain discounts it, and we then find ourselves saying, “What next? Now what?”

So at least try and enjoy yourself along the way, because if it doesn't work out (you don't get that investor), you don't want to have made all that struggle for nothing, right? You want to be able to say, “We had a great time doing it!” not, “Damn I wish I hadn't made all those sacrifices over the years because I really wanted to become a famous musician putting out hit records”.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just like with any other creative endeavour, hobby, or skill, the learning process involved requires a mindset for progressing consistently and continuously toward long-term growth. We can so easily become caught up in achieving something, or in measuring up to someone else[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]’[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s standards, that we forget how pleasant it is to simply be.[/FONT]

Rocky Racoon

thanks all. really great thread. WD - i found your views particularly enlightening and i'd go so far as to say it has altered my thinking and approach (i'd rarely admit to that kind of thing...!). You seem to have done a lot of thinking / research on this -any other articles etc you'd recommend? also curious to hear your music - could you pm a link?? cheers again...

too tired to properly articulate my views on the topic right now but in brief i think it really comes down to:
- having the songs. 99% of bands don't, so they're highly unlikely to make it (in an artistic/critical and financial sense)
- having an overall vision - i.e. sound / image / approach
- hard work - channeled in the right direction - decent recordings, chasing labels / distribution / airplay, marketing yourself. i.e. not just playing to your friends every week
- and yes luck. but to borrow a football cliche you do - to an extent - make your own luck

i think in general the cream does eventually rise to the top.

louloumc89

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Playing in a band can be hard work if you're constantly broke. But looking to the band as a way to make you some money when you're already broke puts a psychological pressure/expectancy on you to produce a certain kind of music.



You say, you hope someone will see something in you that they can profit from, but you need to be sure it actually is something commercial and not your style of music that you think would be commercial if given the 'right promotion', that some investor needs to see for himself and be convinced of your greatness.

Try to enjoy the journey, not the destination. Because if there's anything I've learned about successful people, it's that they get their energy and drive from the pursuit, not attainment of goals. Sure, when we hit a goal it's a great feeling BUT as soon as we achieve some distinction, we can only relish in the feelings for so long until our brain discounts it, and we then find ourselves saying, “What next? Now what?”

So at least try and enjoy yourself along the way, because if it doesn't work out (you don't get that investor), you don't want to have made all that struggle for nothing, right? You want to be able to say, “We had a great time doing it!” not, “Damn I wish I hadn't made all those sacrifices over the years because I really wanted to become a famous musician putting out hit records”.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Just like with any other creative endeavour, hobby, or skill, the learning process involved requires a mindset for progressing consistently and continuously toward long-term growth. We can so easily become caught up in achieving something, or in measuring up to someone else[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]’[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]s standards, that we forget how pleasant it is to simply be.[/FONT]

We've been told that we're a very commercial band. For three out of the four of us it's our first band. So of course we are enjoying the journey. We play a lot of gigs, get a little bit of money, write songs we're proud of. It's such a fun thing to do, to be in a band, regardless of whether or not we 'make it'. Obviously we'd like too though. Our songs are comercial, especially some of our new stuff where the four of us wrote together.

I'm managing the band as such, so I'm always thinking of where we're going, and how we're getting there, but at the same time we're all enjoying the ride. We've played some really nice venues, like The Pavillon in Cork, Dolans Warehouse Limerick, Twisted Pepper Dublin, Stables Mullingar, Roisin Dubh Galway. Plus hotpress magazine said our single was 'excellent' and our album would be worth 'lavishing a few quid on' when it's out. It's not like we're not comercial, we're an all girl band too so that's marketable enough I guess. Plus we've been together for less than a year so we're far from getting frustrated.

When we do get stressed out though, we all remind each other of what you just said there Or we'll play a gig with a band that we really like, or play to a really responsive crowd and that just like ok, so this is fun, I forgot there for a second. Here's a link to our myspace. As I said we've only one track recorded properly. We have demos and that off a cd we made ourselves, but they don't sound exactly how we'd like them to. Let me know what you think of the band though

Sandvich

The problem is Ireland is extremely weak on having any kind of "scenes".

Also Ireland as a whole hasn't exactly produced much in the way of quality music in a long time. Maybe it's becaue we're a small country, but things did used to be a little different.

Sunny86

right look, right sound and right time
if you don't have these three you up against it before you even start. I think the problem here, is bands try to crack Ireland first and by the time they have a good reputation in ireland and can fill venues with paying customers,
Their music and look is out of date if it ever was in date to start with.

A Primal Nut

Sunny86 wrote: »

right look, right sound and right time
if you don't have these three you up against it before you even start. I think the problem here, is bands try to crack Ireland first and by the time they have a good reputation in ireland and can fill venues with paying customers,
Their music and look is out of date if it ever was in date to start with.

If your music and look is going out of date that quick then it probably wasn't good enough in the first place. Sounds like you are talking about boy bands or girl bands.

Although I've listened to many unsigned bands and thought some are decent, I've never thought "I'll have to buy their album" or even download it. Thats the main problem.

Sunny86

You need more than a good songs to get noticed. Image is hugely important
not just for boy or girl bands as you say. And as for music going out of date? Nobody buys yesterdays newspapers. Really depends what you objectives are as a band.

louloumc89

How important does anybody think a manager is? Or for a new band, at what stage should you think about talking one on?


Thanks for the pm btw Walking Sun. Good Tips!!!

Waking-Dreams

You're very welcome. Though, I'll have to contact the mods and see about changing my username to 'Walking Sun' :P

RE: Manager; it's not someone a band needs right away. When you become so busy with gig bookings, etc, then I'd consider enlisting the help of someone. But again, if you have no problem booking gigs yourselves, what do you expect a manager to do? Managers are usually people who work with bands who are signed to records labels and tour, and have records in stores. They work with these bands because the bands don't have the time to deal with all the business end of things, and they're usually making a bit more money than your average band that plays local gigs.

And, just to add for anyone else; there's a great book called 'Bandalism: Do not destroy your group' which I'd recommend. Very funny, but quite useful too.

busttropical

its just gigging.. my band recorded full lengths ourselves but theres no way of getting it out there bar gigging, which we cant do enough of cause we dont have enough members. Basically now every band has to act like the old punk bands and sacrifice their time and money into gigging and putting on good shows, and driving about, and gigging more...recording is pointless unless you wanna give it away for free on the internet, or sell it at discount prices to your friends and family.

Honestly though i havent heard of a young or new band getting anywhere in ireland for a long time, they might come out with a single or two, but only because they have connections, and then they disappear again. theres no market for anything anymore anyway.

puked to be us

Waking-Dreams

its just gigging.. my band recorded full lengths ourselves but there's no way of getting it out there bar gigging, which we can't do enough of cause we don't have enough members. Basically now every band has to act like the old punk bands and sacrifice their time and money into gigging and putting on good shows, and driving about, and gigging more...recording is pointless unless you wanna give it away for free on the internet, or sell it at discount prices to your friends and family.

Why do you say recording is pointless? Maybe recording crappy demos/albums for years on end is, but recording a “good” album to use in order to entice people to come out and see your live show is a solid strategy. I haven't heard your full lengths so I can't comment, however if a band fails to record something “good” then yes, you could say the process of recording is pointless, given that the music industry has become over saturated on almost every level and consumers have more options now than before.

Also, about the gigging situation and having to make sacrifices and investing time/money; was there ever any other way? This is what I call, the disillusionment stage. Yes, you will have to sacrifice time and money to play gigs, just like lots of things in life. It costs money to make money, and because “everyone” is playing in a band there's going to be lots of competition. If you're complaining about it being harder to get heard these days why were you under the illusion that it should be easy? Isn't that very much like having a sense of entitlement?

Honestly though I haven't heard of a young or new band getting anywhere in Ireland for a long time, they might come out with a single or two, but only because they have connections, and then they disappear again. There's no market for anything anymore anyway.

What do you mean by “getting anywhere in Ireland”? Do you mean, getting regular national radio play / playing bigger gigs and showcases / having an album on sale in the likes of HMV, etc?

If those are the goals of a band in this country (and I'm sure they are for many) I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that only happens to a small minority of bands and for lots of commercial reasons and random factors too. I don't want to go OT again, but I'll just say that the market for original music in this country is very small because it is a small country. We all know that pop music makes up most of the market share so why should we act so surprised when indie bands can't get their leg in as easily?

Orando Broom

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Why do you say recording is pointless? Maybe recording crappy demos/albums for years on end is, but recording a “good” album to use in order to entice people to come out and see your live show is a solid strategy. I haven't heard your full lengths so I can't comment, however if a band fails to record something “good” then yes, you could say the process of recording is pointless, given that the music industry has become over saturated on almost every level and consumers have more options now than before.

Also, about the gigging situation and having to make sacrifices and investing time/money; was there ever any other way? This is what I call, the disillusionment stage. Yes, you will have to sacrifice time and money to play gigs, just like lots of things in life. It costs money to make money, and because “everyone” is playing in a band there's going to be lots of competition. If you're complaining about it being harder to get heard these days why were you under the illusion that it should be easy? Isn't that very much like having a sense of entitlement?



What do you mean by “getting anywhere in Ireland”? Do you mean, getting regular national radio play / playing bigger gigs and showcases / having an album on sale in the likes of HMV, etc?

If those are the goals of a band in this country (and I'm sure they are for many) I hate to be the bringer of bad news but that only happens to a small minority of bands and for lots of commercial reasons and random factors too. I don't want to go OT again, but I'll just say that the market for original music in this country is very small because it is a small country. We all know that pop music makes up most of the market share so why should we act so surprised when indie bands can't get their leg in as easily?

You want to make your band a commercial success you need to get off 'The Rock'. Ireland has the same population as the greater Manchester area. That puts your market in perspective.

Also there are so many truly awful bands out there at the minute who record every and any turgid tripe with zero quality control. The ease of access to and use of programs like protools has the music scene awash with mediocre to terrible music. This lack of quality does put people off from taking a punt on genuinely good/interesting Irish bands. When you see some of the You Tubes of Irish musicians on the internet you'd really wonder what is going on. Some of the stuff is downright awful and people seem genuinely proud of it! If you actually told them the stark truths they would be stunned. I would offer that the first thing a new band needs to do it be self aware and mature enough to realise their output is poor and me man enough to go back to the drawing board and improve it. More quality control and peer reviewing and less foisting your ****e on the put upon music public.

Sunny86

UK is where its at! Article in NME is worth 50 in hotpress

If your in a band and you think you can cut it, get a good
pr agent first and foremost. Def worth the investment.

Orando Broom

Sunny86 wrote: »

UK is where its at! Article in NME is worth 50 in hotpress

If your in a band and you think you can cut it, get a good
pr agent first and foremost. Def worth the investment.

Not from Ireland. To be honest the less Irish bands have to do with Irish music industry 'heads' the better. Clueless, inward looking, self-serving mongs. They haven't the brains to exploit you for money.

The NME has made coin for manys the chancer.

Hotpress should be laminated such is the ferocity of the circle jerking within its pages.

raindog.promo

Orando Broom wrote: »

Hotpress should be laminated such is the ferocity of the circle jerking within its pages.

Quote of the f**king year.



Incidentally, regarding the comments on recording vs just gigging, I've been to a lot of very good Irish bands gigs and one was a band called 10 past 7. They did a great gig and it was an all round good night from the bands that played iirc. However, afterwards the band sold or gave away an ep they had recorded. Now, I can't remember the other bands that played that night and I can't remember a lot of good local bands who I've gone to see, but the 10 past 7 band has always stuck in my head and I would put that down to getting an ep of them on the night.

My point I guess is that recording and circulating the recordings cements your band in the punters minds who most likely, 9 times out of 10, are pissed out of their heads when they see you live and have little chance of remembering who you were a week after the gig.

Sandvich

Sunny86 wrote: »

You need more than a good songs to get noticed. Image is hugely important
not just for boy or girl bands as you say. And as for music going out of date? Nobody buys yesterdays newspapers. Really depends what you objectives are as a band.

What kind of image exactly?

Fabo

out of date music ? what a load of crap. your music is either good or bad.

Sunny86

Fabo wrote: »

out of date music ? what a load of crap. your music is either good or bad.

This thread is about how to get signed, and make money. If you think trends do not exist in music your mental. I have seen bands with great music go nowhere simply becuase the sound was not fresh.
Good music is timeless but only if you were able to get it out to a mass market to start with.