What do new bands have to do?

raindog.promo

maccored wrote: »

exactly. it depends on what you want to do. You need to properly organise the recording, the mix, master, promotion, build email and contact lists for DJs, newspapers, mp3 bloggers, promote the release, get some ins with tv etc (unless of course you pay someone else to do that).

we made a reasonable album a few years back, got it airplay, got some pretty decent reviews (and some horrible ones) and sold enough of them to break even. The best thing we learned though after doing it all was that the band just wasnt going to work as working at that level had brought out some home truths about all of us to each other. I'd say we could have actually made a small bit of money but instead we just knocked the whole thing on the head a year later, while still halfway through promoting the release.

Its a lesson learned as I'd never do the whole self release thing again. I aged about a million years. These days I find using internet, building a mailing list of people who *actually* listen, giving away free tunes and doing webgigs much more satisfying. Granted, one doesnt make any money but its a great way of making yourself get in there and write tunes.

Who was the band and what was the album if you don't mind me asking?

maccored

ah jesus. Its something I'd rather forget but heres two opposing views:

the good review:
http://www.rte.ie/ten/2008/0128/79cortinaz.html

the (probably more accurate) bad one:

http://johnniecraig.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/craigs-list-2008-the-worst-albums-i-reviewed-this-year/

The point is though, we didnt have a label or promo company and done the whole job ourselves.

raindog.promo

maccored wrote: »

Its a lesson learned as I'd never do the whole self release thing again. I aged about a million years. These days I find using internet, building a mailing list of people who *actually* listen, giving away free tunes and doing webgigs much more satisfying. Granted, one doesnt make any money but its a great way of making yourself get in there and write tunes.

Wouldn't this be a good argument for using a promotion company then?

Yes, you can do the work yourself or you can pay someone to do it for you. Less pressure on yourself and I would imagine it would feel good to see a team working on the same goal as opposed to just doing it yourself.

In no way reflecting/commenting on you, but the legwork you (by which I mean any bands, not you specifically) can do that a promotion company can also do. Wouldn't there be more of a chance that the promotion company would do it more professionally or have more experience doing it, and more chance of making the contacts?

I don't mean any of the above as an attack on you or anyone else. Just to make an analogy, You can build a shed yourself or you can pay a professional to do it for you. In some cases you may do a better a job and in others, probably best to leave it to a professional.

maccored

nah - for a start we didnt have the money, and many of the good ones decided if they wished to work with you or not regardless if you had the money. secondly the stress was in the band itself and not related to the work load

raindog.promo

maccored wrote: »

ah jesus. Its something I'd rather forget but heres two opposing views:

the good review:
http://www.rte.ie/ten/2008/0128/79cortinaz.html

the (probably more accurate) bad one:

http://johnniecraig.wordpress.com/2008/12/22/craigs-list-2008-the-worst-albums-i-reviewed-this-year/

The point is though, we didnt have a label or promo company and done the whole job ourselves.

Congratulations on the DIY.

I think I had a very drunk conversation with you at the merchandise table at some thumped gig many moons ago. You's did Deirdre's Song?

maccored

and thirdly i would say the real lesson was that music was meant to be enjoyed. if you start thinking like the career musician does, it loses all its fun.

maccored

raindog.promo wrote: »

Congratulations on the DIY.

I think I had a very drunk conversation with you at the merchandise table at some thumped gig many moons ago. You's did Deirdre's Song?

aye. many yonks ago.

DrFroggies

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

I'd never tell a band, “forget trying kid, you don't stand a chance out there in this business” but encourage them to ask some deep questions about what they think their chances are

Agreed...though i have to admit i've had times when i've told people to forget trying (not to kids though...musicians who've been around long enough to know better and are being deliberately ignorant) or rather to stop wasting everyone elses time

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Self-financing is a horrible option in most cases.

Not neccessarily...it would depend on the ultimate objective and even the style of music a person or group/project was recording and promoting. For example the costs or recording and promoting for a singer songwriter/acoustic band with an organic lo-fi sound and a more subtle and nuanced image/presence would be much less than a 8 piece experimental rock act with live string section baby grand piano, epic song constructs and a more glamourous, high gloss image/presence.

I actually think self financing for someone in the OPs position would be very beneficial as i mentioned earlier even if its not to sell in bucket loads and build a future out of it would be an ideal way to test the water...if your band are up to the challenge of doing something so difficult and sticking together. Even the costs would benefit insofar as seeing how committed you are, put your money where your mouth is etc. Creative pursuits tend to be costly anyway even a normal band forking out €70 twice a week for rehearsals would - if they averaged a 3 year existence - have spent a fair few grand on rehearsals alone. At least with something like self financing they'd benefit from product and much more importantly experience. It'd certainly either toughen them up and make them more resolute and committed or split them up and save them years of half-ar**ed effort.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Learn how to record and do it yourself. That way, when the musician thing fails, you'll have a fall-back position.

Also agreed in fact i'd say the way things are going if musicians/bands don't have some recording/engineering proficiency they'll find themselves at a massive, massive loss and would in the near future be considered hopelessly amature.

maccored wrote: »

and thirdly i would say the real lesson was that music was meant to be enjoyed. if you start thinking like the career musician does, it loses all its fun.

Well to be fair if someone wants a career in any field they're going to have to start thinking in a careerist frame of mind. Though i agree it does somewhat sap away at the love of their craft. But strumming away and hoping against hope that lady luck shines on you is not going to satisfy anyone with career ambitions.

As i've said before i think an awful lot depends on being very clear on what you want, what's the minimum required to have any chance of getting it, what's the maximum you're willing to do, and can you reconcile the effort with the possibility of failure if that did happen to be the outcome.

maccored

DrFroggies wrote: »

But strumming away and hoping against hope that lady luck shines on you is not going to satisfy anyone with career ambitions.

to be fair now, the key objective is to enjoy it. the decision to take it on as a career is something a musician deals with afterwards, but its vitally important they have a solid understanding of what they're getting into and not some fairy eyed idea of how musicians suddenly strike gold and become multi millionaires. the other alternative is to worry more about how to earn money than write music - and we all know what the top 40 sounds like.

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

This is both untrue and essentially impossible.

I didn't say a band had to prove they were making tons of money and living off music, but that they need to demonstrate they are making money nevertheless.

Whereas, if a band can only demonstrate the potential to make money, the label are taking more of a risk, wouldn't you say? “I have a great CD here for your roster; it will sell! Trust me!” That's been said by every single band out there.

A record label can't sign every single band that approaches them, and if it was a toss up between:

a band who have good material, an album they've released independently which has already sold over 2,000 copies and/or a few thousand downloads...

or

a band who have good material, an album recorded, but have not released it yet and are looking for the label to sell it...

what band might they choose? The label likes the music of both bands equally. So surely, one band has demonstrated they have appeal and can back it up with some sales figures. The other can only talk of potential appeal and how they've played a number of “savage” live shows to great crowds.

Labels aren't turkeys, they know bands all talk a good game, and send in positive press clippings and good reviews. But reviews are not sales.

It's like turning up to a job interview with no references, no previous data to back up your good word.

That's all.

---

raindog.promo wrote: »

Wouldn't this be a good argument for using a promotion company then?

Yes, you can do the work yourself or you can pay someone to do it for you. Less pressure on yourself and I would imagine it would feel good to see a team working on the same goal as opposed to just doing it yourself.

Publicists are a great resource. I've employed the services of one freelance guy in Montreal, and it was worth the few hundred dollars. But outside help should ideally only supplement your own work, not replace it. There are a number of bands on indie labels who are still expected to trawl through myspace and spread the word because all the label can afford is a few magazine slots and some interviews (they have lots of bands remember). And for all that promotion they keep 95% of profits. Now, if you can make them big money they'll up their investment no doubt, but what's going to cause all the influx of sales? Their constant promotion techniques? -- have you ever gotten sick of seeing the same band everywhere in mags and just wanted them to go away? -- Or your music? It's a bit of both, so keep it in mind.

In fairness, what are the promotion company/label doing? Promoting, yes, but what? Your music is what. Whether a new listener hears it from you or them, aren't they going to make the same judgement either way? Or do we believe that via association with that company the music will get a much better reception? If that's really the case, then how come bands on labels get bad receptions all the time?

Any band can put a label name on their CD if they don't want to give off the impression they're unsigned, but I guarantee you the music will still seal the deal. The association factor is not as influencial as we'd like to think.

You can reach more people with a promotion company alright, but if your music is niche, then don't overestimate the number of potential fans out there who would like your music.

---

maccored wrote: »

to be fair now, the key objective is to enjoy it. the decision to take it on as a career is something a musician deals with afterwards, but its vitally important they have a solid understanding of what they're getting into and not some fairy eyed idea of how musicians suddenly strike gold and become multi millionaires. the other alternative is to worry more about how to earn money than write music - and we all know what the top 40 sounds like.

My friend who is a pro photographer has spent a lot of time working and hanging out with a bands on festival tours and the like. He's travelled the world with them and sees some of their members as going through the motions, in that, much of the enjoyment has been lost and they are simply 'stuck' in their lifestyles trying to earn a wage. I know the metal band Slipknot have broken up because of the bass player's death, but he told me of a conversation he had with one of the other members, the guitarist, that in the last year or two he (the guitarist that is) hated playing in the band and put it this way, “I'm just putting on my monkey-suit and earning a living, that's as far as it goes for me, there's no real enjoyment anymore”. And that's a band who have sold millions, have legions of fans - who would love to do what the band does.

So taking something on as a hobby which then leads to a career doesn't mean the enjoyment will remain even if you are a massive stadium selling band.

MilanPan!c

maccored wrote: »

to be fair now, the key objective is to enjoy it. the decision to take it on as a career is something a musician deals with afterwards, but its vitally important they have a solid understanding of what they're getting into and not some fairy eyed idea of how musicians suddenly strike gold and become multi millionaires. the other alternative is to worry more about how to earn money than write music - and we all know what the top 40 sounds like.

hmmm...

I just not sure I understand this post..

Do most musicians you really know think they're gonna suddenly become multi-millionaires? I know a TON of musicians (as we all do I'm sure) and I haven't heard a single one of them say this... since I was 13 maybe...?

Are all the "realists" on this thread worried about teens? Cause they're not gonna listen to ANYTHING we have to say...

As for the people that care more about money than music, how many of those folks have you met that went on to become huge famous musicians?

None?

So why are we caring about them again?

I mean, they have to do they same thing as the rest of us, to succeed that is, write decent songs... and as we've all said, they have no magic formula... it's not like all of us are sitting around with a whole bunch of top ten hits in our pocket, but we don't write and record them, because, "WE'RE into music because we love music, not for money"...

The actual REALITY - - - -IN MY OPINION- - - - MOST people give up on the commercial aspect of music creation is they don't have some success. That includes people across all genres and even people that LOVE playing music.

THEREFORE - - - -IN MY OPINION- - - - if you don't treat it seriously, and try and have some success, you will find your project/band/whatever haemorrhaging musicians and turning pretty negative, in time, because many people can't internally justify hard work, for nothing but temporary moments of happiness.

Now of course, there's exceptions.

You know bands that are full of happy people, that go nowhere and accomplish nothing, and won't.

But is anyone really asking for advice on how to be in that band?

I have yet to see this question:

"My friends and I have a band, we're looking to accomplish nothing more than to be able to play music for fun, to no one really, for an extended period of time. We're all happy and agreed that we're willing to work hard, for no reason other than a laugh, for a long long time. Any advice?"

I feel like a lot of you guys think that's the question people should be asking. But look, it's NOT the question they're asking, on most of these threads (and there's been a few).

People want to actually try and succeed as musicians. The advice they need is wildly different to the advice the musicians in my fictional question need.

So WD (sorry to make you the example, but...) why not use all your knowledge to help people with their goals, instead of trying to scare them off their goals?

Imagine this scenario in the care repair forum:

Q: Can someone point me to some info about the 1996 Ford Focus? I'm going to try and change a clutch.

A: It'll only lead to heart-break, so no I won't help you. You need to be a realist. You won't be able to change a clutch.


There's a lot of people on a lot of threads that feel they need to protect this group of folks who believe

some fairy eyed idea of how musicians suddenly strike gold and become multi millionaires

and like I said, not only is that not answering the question, but it's pretty arrogant.

"I've never heard anything you've written; I've never had any success myself, but let me tell you what you can accomplish."

If WE stick to advising people, with our opinions, based on our experiences/knowledge, and then make a separate thread called, "WARNINGS TO MUSICIANS ABOUT THE MUSIC BIZ AND YOUR CHANCES IN IT," in which all of this information about failure can be stored, then THIS whole topic will be more fairly covered.



IMO

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

So WD (sorry to make you the example, but...) why not use all your knowledge to help people with their goals, instead of trying to scare them off their goals?

And how would all that knowledge be put to better use to meet your approval? By sugar-coating everything and telling each band “you can make it!” I think you should let people decide for themselves. The Internet is a take it or leave establishment. No one's going to open up their inbox to find personal messages from me that they never requested.

But on to your question; I myself received the same kind of words of cautious wisdom from lots of musicians and it certainly helped me see the reality; it meant I didn't make silly mistakes like gigging anywhere that supplied electricity and other misconceptions that many musicians carry (which you even agree with, right?). I still have great ambition and I'm not done with music yet, so how does that fit into your hypothesis that I'm a fusty cynic running around telling everyone Santa Claus isn't real? One can still have ambition and see the wood for the trees.

You're doing that thing you do once again, where if someone says something 'negative' it means nothing good can come from it. Not so.

When someone warms you about the possibility of being broken into, you don't tell them to stop being so negative and disrupting their positive ambitions of living in a happy community (because lots of people never get broken into, they'll say). Instead, maybe you buy a lock and an alarm and take the advice on board, so what's really the matter to be annoyed over? Now if someone was berating you for not owning an alarm, it might come across as rude alright, but that doesn't make the point less true.

What happens in all walks of life is people have high hopes for themselves and employ the mental heuristic - regarding something bad taking place - “It will never happen to me”, like a car crash, or being broken into. Yet, statistical data proves this does happen to many people, and sometimes through no fault of their own (it was the other driver / “my house was alarmed but still got hit – it's not like I left the door open”). That's life.

Depending on one's own perspective regarding the music industry and how they arrived at that perspective, they might suggest that rather than 'knocking' the dreams of other people, I should rally behind them, after all, it’s only human nature to yearn for something larger than life. While in principle I agree it’s perfectly normal for each of us to have ambitions about a wide variety of favourable outcomes taking place during the course of our lives, it doesn’t mean we should categorically ignore cautious advice, and just stick our heads down and gamble our resources and spend all our available time and energy chasing that dream either. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. But my advice can be easily ignored if it makes one feel uncomfortable.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

Imagine this scenario in the care repair forum:

Q: Can someone point me to some info about the 1996 Ford Focus? I'm going to try and change a clutch.

A: It'll only lead to heart-break, so no I won't help you.

You're a bit wide of the mark there summing up all my posts as that kind of response but hey, that's your take on it amigo. It's not my job to hold someone's hand and tell them it's going to be alright. In the past, I found alot of other people's 'negative' insights quite enlightening and educational, and it cost me nothing but time and an internet connection. No hard lessons.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

There's a lot of people on a lot of threads that feel they need to protect this group of folks who believe.

Beliefs are funny things. Because, no matter what evidence you present to someone, if they believe it badly enough, no such evidence will ever change their minds. That can only happen through their own experience.

Performing music is a hobby for most people. For others, it’s a very large part of who they are, an identity and playing music gives them a great sense of self-esteem and, if enough people happen to applaud, a potent source of social status which is what we all secretly crave – it's evolutionarily hard-wired into all of us. But a decent majority of these musicians seem to want more (like you imply above); they naturally have ambitions of greatness and believe they have what it takes. Fine. But that doesn't mean they're entitled to it or should be shielded from the reality – if it's offered in a constructive way.

Dr. Froggies makes a good point that sometimes accommodating people and encouraging them to chase their dreams, when they haven't got much of a chance (talent or good music) isn't being helpful, and only leads to their inevitable failure and them having contributed to the oversaturation of the whole music scene. But on what authority can we tell these people to get lost? They have to figure it out for themselves, but reading books containing the kind of realistic advice here might be more educational than say reading books called 'The Secret' or 'How to write a hit song'.

Many people want to believe something as a kind of security blanket, it is easier than continually having to work things out, being uncertain and accepting that they might have to work a crummy job they hate like the rest of us do. But instead of focusing on what they lack in life, they could focus on what they already have and what they can achieve that isn't subject to insurmountable odds of attainment. It is only until the thief comes along and we are robbed of something when we realise how much we valued it (and took it for granted) in the first place.

How can bands and artists resent not getting something they never had to begin with? Could it be because other people have been lucky enough to get it, and so, they want it badly to?

People have invested in their beliefs and desires; they won't just give them up. However these people aren't always great at making a decent argument and are overtly emotional sometimes or else have difficultly sustaining a prolonged argument and particularly find it hard to concede without attaching a sense of failure. But it doesn't have to be that way. When I was figuring all this stuff out it was liberating, enlightening even.

MilanPan!c wrote: »

If WE stick to advising people, with our opinions, based on our experiences/knowledge, and then make a separate thread called, "WARNINGS TO MUSICIANS ABOUT THE MUSIC BIZ AND YOUR CHANCES IN IT," in which all of this information about failure can be stored, then THIS whole topic will be more fairly covered.

So basically, you want to censor out all the 'negative' testimony. Can I remind you that no one has asked anyone with 'positive' ideas to take their talk elsewhere. We can all share our insights here because both perspectives are equally valid, we just all happen to disagree on the validity of certain points but that's most discussions online.

Christians post in the Atheism forum and vise versa. So long as the discussion is conduced reasonably and rationally, I don't see why there should be any separation. Otherwise there would be two threads where people just agree with each other (an echo chamber) and that is a horribly boring discussion to have.

MilanPan!c

@WD

You've greatly overstated my point.

My point is that a huge percentage of response to the how do I suceed threads are, "you can't, don't try".

Which is off topic.

Make a topic about what YOU want to discuss.

The topic isn't, "can I suceed?", but what advice can you give mentonhelp me suceed.

Your answer is essentially, "none" (as you believe success is essentially random/an unrealsitic goal).

So, if you have no advice, what are all these responses for?

PMI

PMI wrote: »

Only read 1st page so far but follow papa smuts lead hes onto it

Practice as much as you can, but again all the practice in the world wont do as much as 7 gigs a week will

gig gig gig gig and gig, mingle with crowd so they like you as people as well as a band and chat/network with other bands, create gigs dont approach/rely on venues all the time, create a double head gig in a college somewhere put hand in pocket, dont worry about promotors and that crap do it yourself.

also if the crowd isnt building look at why and be honest, ive said it many times, just because some people own a guitar etc.. doesnt mean you should use it almost 8 out of 10 bands i see are pretty crap and have no real direction or any songs that hit a chord.

dont think about industries and stuff if you make enough noise without them, they will approach you

Trust me theres nothing like having the word independent next to your name in charts, and BMG, Sony etc.. all around ya makes them wonder how your doing it !!!!

we've been lucky this week to be holding in the official top30 for 2 weeks with a few thousand sales, and totally independent its a nice feeling so it can be done, and it can be done in ireland.

Now 3-2-1 Go !!!!

3-2-1 GO !

quicklickpaddy

Great thread. Interesting... But it got insanely off topic.

My band have been together about 2 years but we have only decided to start taking it seriously now. Our bassist's brother is doing a studio engineering course so we got a good quality free recording (haven't gotten it back yet - it's still being mastered) and we can get more pretty cheap which we plan on doing as soon as we have the songs prepared for it. Before we go into the studio we're going through all our songs (6-8 that we are keeping) with a fine tooth comb and scrapping other ones. We are happy with our sound too.

As a more focused question to the OP, how would you guys advise taking it to the next step? We have gigged a bit beforehand but haven't been able to in the last year because our bassist was still in school. Do we pay attention to things like image or is that irrelevant? Once we're as tight as we can be we're going to start gigging frequently (still a bit rusty from not practising over the year) but what is the best way to go about that? Playing gig's with bands we know? Because that's not really reaching a bigger audience... Or is it? If not how else do we go about building a fan base?

We've sat down and tried to work out where we're heading with it so I just wanted to hear a few outside opinions on what you'd think would be the next step? Cheers!

Waking-Dreams

quicklickpaddy wrote: »

Great thread. Interesting... But it got insanely off topic.

My band have been together about 2 years but we have only decided to start taking it seriously now. Our bassist's brother is doing a studio engineering course so we got a good quality free recording (haven't gotten it back yet - it's still being mastered) and we can get more pretty cheap which we plan on doing as soon as we have the songs prepared for it. Before we go into the studio we're going through all our songs (6-8 that we are keeping) with a fine tooth comb and scrapping other ones. We are happy with our sound too.

As a more focused question to the OP, how would you guys advise taking it to the next step? We have gigged a bit beforehand but haven't been able to in the last year because our bassist was still in school. Do we pay attention to things like image or is that irrelevant? Once we're as tight as we can be we're going to start gigging frequently (still a bit rusty from not practising over the year) but what is the best way to go about that? Playing gig's with bands we know? Because that's not really reaching a bigger audience... Or is it? If not how else do we go about building a fan base?

We've sat down and tried to work out where we're heading with it so I just wanted to hear a few outside opinions on what you'd think would be the next step? Cheers!

Can you give a bit more info maybe? How old are you all? And what exactly are your ambitions? Be as specific as possible.

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

@WD

You've greatly overstated my point.

My point is that a huge percentage of response to the how do I suceed threads are, "you can't, don't try".

Which is off topic.

Make a topic about what YOU want to discuss.

The topic isn't, "can I suceed?", but what advice can you give mention help me suceed.

Your answer is essentially, "none" (as you believe success is essentially random/an unrealsitic goal).

So, if you have no advice, what are all these responses for?

OK, can be put an end to this please? I've apologised to El Pron for taking the thread off topic but you still persist in baiting me into arguing over whether my input is helpful or valid. I'm going to leave it at this for now.

You're simply interpreting everything I have to say as, “you can't so don't try”. Again, it's your interpretation. Please find me a quote where I have repeatedly told bands to give up. What I have done is to ask them to acknowledge the game / the odds / the random factors and then plan accordingly based on that information. I believe your emotions are clouding your judgement in being able to see this in my posts. It's always good to challenge your preconceptions.

I mean, aren't you forgetting that mammoth post I left in the 'looking for a record deal?' thread? 'Twas pretty good practical advice in there for bands I thought, on topics like gigging, recording an album, planning goals and talking to each other in the band about objectives, going the label route; not going the label route – where was the “you can't, so don't try” sentiment there pray tell?

But maybe it wasn't the exact kind of advice you wanted to read? That's the difference; I think you welcome people to give advice, but with a preference for the right kind of advice otherwise it's deemed 'unhelpful'. Some bands want advice but only the kind of advice that will confirm their existing beliefs. Well sorry, but if you can't handle some facts that don't match your own cherished view of the world, maybe you shouldn't ask people in the first place, or maybe you should just ignore it... it's an open forum.

It is entirely your perspective on what is unhelpful or not. Have you considered that it's because I care that I've been offering up all this stuff? And that any interest I have in the myriad topics doesn't have to be concealing mockery, but just giving my opinions?

Let's both take Smut's advice; and cool down and go for a walk.

I'm happy to answer any practical questions bands have, though I would suggest reading all of the record deal thread first if they haven't already. I'm not going to continue this debate with MP however, because it's already taken away from the thread too much.

quicklickpaddy

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

Can you give a bit more info maybe? How old are you all? And what exactly are your ambitions? Be as specific as possible.

Between 18-20. Exactly? We don't so much have a final plan. We want to keep building and take it as far as we can go. 3 of us are in college with small amounts of hours and if our bassist gets what he wants he'll have even less hours. I suppose for the time being I'd like us to be known and respected as a band. It's obviously too early right now to start trying to get a record deal or anything but we have resources for recording through friends but the friends we have who are doing well are a completely different genre so playing with them isn't really feasible.

In short I guess our ambition (for the near future) is to gain credibility and build a fan base

Waking-Dreams

Have a read through this post here as a base: (it doesn't necessarily apply to you)

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65923795&postcount=167

What style of music are you, then? Indie, rock, metal, blues, ???

You mention being in college. I take it you lot are all tight on funds too then? It's great getting stuff recorded by mates for cheap (and a brilliant songwriting tool / feedback generator) but be careful in placing too much faith in these recordings as your ticket to winning people over when it comes to seriously considering your band – like putting them up on your website/myspace. Anyone can record their music now and put it up online and music lovers make very quick impressions as they are usually doing multiple things online, all competing for their attention – numerous windows open, linking to new pieces of info – we're all info-tainment junkies in a way.

Better to wait and let your talent mature before it hits the streets in its final form. Work on your songs and post them semi-anonymously on message boards looking for feedback; you'd be surprised how many people don't mind. Although friends, relatives, and girlfriends/boyfriends are all important sources of feedback, you should pay attention to the feedback provided by complete strangers. In fact, we tend to value their feedback more than that of friends, since friends have an incentive to lie to us - to tell us what we want to hear and thereby preserve our friendship; strangers don’t and you'll get more honest feedback this way. But gauge it appropriately. Don't let 1 person sully the 8 or 9 other positive opinions. Plus, make sure you're happy too. Sometimes, it's OK to go against some initial feedback and make music you like.

You've already gigged before you say? You didn't have a demo or album to promote though did you? Gigs like that are great in and of themselves; a good time but you'll soon tire of it until the quality of gigs improves and I would stress needing an album and a polished website etc to achieve this end. You're already competing against bands who have these and even they are trying to get better gigs, so get on their level and then let your good music do the rest. That's when opporunities crop up. I wouldn't worry about record labels just yet. In fact, given that you're in college, don't let your studies suffer. Be patient; what's the rush? You get one good chance to make a first proper impression.

MilanPan!c

Waking-Dreams wrote: »

OK, can be put an end to this please? I've apologised to El Pron for taking the thread off topic but you still persist in baiting me into arguing over whether my input is helpful or valid. I'm going to leave it at this for now.

You're simply interpreting everything I have to say as, “you can't so don't try”. Again, it's your interpretation. Please find me a quote where I have repeatedly told bands to give up. What I have done is to ask them to acknowledge the game / the odds / the random factors and then plan accordingly based on that information. I believe your emotions are clouding your judgement in being able to see this in my posts. It's always good to challenge your preconceptions.

I mean, aren't you forgetting that mammoth post I left in the 'looking for a record deal?' thread? 'Twas pretty good practical advice in there for bands I thought, on topics like gigging, recording an album, planning goals and talking to each other in the band about objectives, going the label route; not going the label route – where was the “you can't, so don't try” sentiment there pray tell?

But maybe it wasn't the exact kind of advice you wanted to read? That's the difference; I think you welcome people to give advice, but with a preference for the right kind of advice otherwise it's deemed 'unhelpful'. Some bands want advice but only the kind of advice that will confirm their existing beliefs. Well sorry, but if you can't handle some facts that don't match your own cherished view of the world, maybe you shouldn't ask people in the first place, or maybe you should just ignore it... it's an open forum.

It is entirely your perspective on what is unhelpful or not. Have you considered that it's because I care that I've been offering up all this stuff? And that any interest I have in the myriad topics doesn't have to be concealing mockery, but just giving my opinions?

Let's both take Smut's advice; and cool down and go for a walk.

I'm happy to answer any practical questions bands have, though I would suggest reading all of the record deal thread first if they haven't already. I'm not going to continue this debate with MP however, because it's already taken away from the thread too much.

man o man.

Stupid Internet.

I think we're probably in agreement about a lot of things. We both have said as much.

I think, that is, in my opinion, the incessent negativity, call it cynicism, realism from a different perspective, whatever, is much more detrimental to these threads. E.g. When pressed to be more constructive and give practical advice you pointed me to a different thread. Well, what are all of these posts in this thread then? In other words, why all the OT posts?

Go back and look at my first posts here, it was actual advice. Now, of course, this thread has drifted wildly OT, but why?

I think that we should either agree to sit down over a beer and have this discussion, so that we really understood each others points, properly, or just agree not to jump into these advice threads?

I'd rather go the beer route, personally.

What say you?

El Pr0n

El Pr0n wrote: »

So what do new bands actually have to do?

Everyone has a mate in a band. And all those bands are 'savage'. They all have a MySpace page, and maybe even some good quality recordings. But I get the feeling that a lot of bands stop at that.

The way the music industry is at the moment, people are going to have to step up and do it a new way. Does anyone know what that new way is yet? Surely there isn't just one way.

This thread is partly a 'I don't know what to do next' thread, but I don't mean it as a selfish 'help me out here' kind of gesture. This stuff really interests me. I love watching bands' movements. I keep getting the feeling there's gonna be some sort of musical overhaul in the near future. Things can't keep going the way they are, right? Or does that sound too pessimistic?

This is the op.

Can we bring it back to this now?

raindog.promo

El Pron expanded on his OP too.

El Pr0n wrote: »

I play in a band, and I guess we're just starting to take ourselves seriously (in a 'we really think we're good' rather than a 'we want to make it' kind of way). So I was looking at all these other bands and seeing what they're doing and what stages they're at. Most people have gigs all over the place, some people have professional recordings, some people have really original ideas and some people are just doing the old reliable stuff well. We're sort of on the outside of all of this (no gigs, amateur recordings, and still learning/finding our craft [we don't think we do the old reliable stuff, but we haven't found a trademark or a signature yet either]).

And there always seems to be the same answer - get to know bands, play gigs, get people to know your band, play gigs, get some money, record in a studio, send your recordings out to blogs/radio stations/labels/whatever, play more gigs (now with music to sell)... The beaten track.

So what do new bands have to do to stand up on their own? Sustain themselves? Make it a career? I don't mean 'make it' and I don't mean 'be happy playing music'. I suppose, I mean, how do bands get to sustain themselves as artists, making their money from their art in order to make more art.

Such a broad question, I know. Maybe this thread is doomed because of that. Lots of great discussion though.

raindog.promo

Papa Smut, remember that article that had a lot of advice for bands by the dude we met when we played in Belfast?

Any idea what the link was?

Waking-Dreams

MilanPan!c wrote: »

man o man.

Stupid Internet.

I think we're probably in agreement about a lot of things. We both have said as much.

I think, that is, in my opinion, the incessent negativity, call it cynicism, realism from a different perspective, whatever, is much more detrimental to these threads. E.g. When pressed to be more constructive and give practical advice you pointed me to a different thread. Well, what are all of these posts in this thread then? In other words, why all the OT posts?

Go back and look at my first posts here, it was actual advice. Now, of course, this thread has drifted wildly OT, but why?

I think that we should either agree to sit down over a beer and have this discussion, so that we really understood each others points, properly, or just agree not to jump into these advice threads?

I'd rather go the beer route, personally.

What say you?

My first response in this thread was directed at the OP and was positive.

All of the OT posts were between you and I. You quote something of mine and challenge it; I quote back and do likewise and we're at loggerheads over the whole matter, like in the past threads.

You're right, overall it is very detrimental, so I'm happy to sit on my hands and not jump into these discussions anymore with yourself (like I've arranged with Zendali – because we'll always disagree) about stuff that is not directly related to a thread's OP.

While I appreciate the offer for a more in-depth discussion, it's still going to come to the same inevitable conclusion amigo, because we'll both end in agreement on some points, yet differ on the infamous certain others, just like we do here. Because that's just both of our opposing perspectives and no conversation, no matter how politely conducted will change that.

Don't worry, there's no hard feelings and I promise not to high-jack anymore threads with my brand of “incessant negativity, call it cynicism, realism from a different perspective”.

You have my word.

And anytime you think that I am being detrimental to a thread with irrelevant OT posts, you can quote this message.

rcaz

I haven't had time to properly go through this thread in the last few days. Wow did it go off topic. But there have been lots of great posts too.

I didn't want it to be a 'help me out here' kind of thread, which is why I PMed Walking-Dreams instead of posting in the thread. I'd rather not have the thread specifically about my band. I think the discussion is a good one and I've enjoyed reading it.

I don't like the idea of paying promoters and that side of things - of course it can be done all DIY, and that's been proven. Just needs the right thinking behind it. This is the kind of plan I'd like to formulate and carry out, and we've been talking about that stuff more and more seriously now. Anything like getting an EP to have pressed and released is still way off, but we're in no rush. I like the whole Wagnerian Gesamkunstwerk idea, where the band takes care of everything. We know we can write out music how we like it, and we're getting more and more experience recording and producing, we've started discussing and comparing images and graphics, and planning out the best ways to use the tools we have - computers and the internet being the main ones. I think any band who doesn't acknowledge the need to be involved as possible doesn't deserve the results they're looking for. So that's my particular situation.

Someone said something about worrying about image matters? I don't think bands should be too worried about clothes and appearance and stuff (unless that's part of your niche - The Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Ian Dury, Rufus Wainwright...), as long as you look presentable and respectable. I do think that more bands should be interested in a whole multimedia presentation though. Album covers, photos, stage shows, album documentation... Everything should be able to interest a fan. That's what I think at least.

Re: Slipknot and other bands who aren't excited it anymore. Do they have anyone to blame but themselves? I think more bands should do a Radiohead/The Flaming Lips/Deerhoof/The Clash, etc., and change it up. Bored with playing your OK Computer guitar rock? Go make a Kid A. Be an artist again.

You might be able to tell that I have lots of opinions and ideas regarding the artistic side of it. It's the putting it into practice/pulling it off part I don't know yet. I could sit in my room working on tunes all day every day, and I bet anyone who realistically considers music as their career could do the same. Getting started is the hardest part.

Fabo

So what do new bands actually have to do?

they need someone who can actually write great songs. 99% of amateur music sounds the same and is made by people who know nothing about songwriting..hence they never go anywhere

PMI

El Pron, in one of your posts it says send to labels etc... thats a waste of time TBH....

A label at most this year will only help with some distribution, and might have a bit more muscle over the stations etc.. thats all, o and I forgot you have to pay them as they will be taking a cut....

do it all yourself if you cant build gigs yourself (applies to all) theres something wrong having a label isnt gonna make people like you straight away, and also when they (the label) ask you so how many fans do you play to a night and you say 5-10 they wont bother looking at you.

you have to make noise without them, travel and bust your balls or it wont happen.

My Space to me is a kids toy, but was a good idea, to many friend adders etc.. and generic friend requests so you cant get a true reading of your fans unless your willing to do it right and choose as you go rather than try and look as busy as someone else.

to much typing and too late, so good luck with the posts lads

Waking-Dreams

El Pr0n wrote: »

I don't like the idea of paying promoters and that side of things - of course it can be done all DIY, and that's been proven. Just needs the right thinking behind it. This is the kind of plan I'd like to formulate and carry out, and we've been talking about that stuff more and more seriously now.

'The DIY Music Manual' is packed full of great ideas which you might useful. It covers lots of the essential areas. The book publishing industry is saturated with tons of music-related books on the topic, but this one is word a look.

El Pr0n wrote: »

Re: Slipknot and other bands who aren't excited by it anymore. Do they have anyone to blame but themselves? I think more bands should do a Radiohead/The Flaming Lips/Deerhoof/The Clash, etc., and change it up. Bored with playing your OK Computer guitar rock? Go make a Kid A. Be an artist again.

When you see members leaving bands citing, “creative differences” it's almost always because they have lost their enthusiasm for either the music or the lifestyle. But it's not always within one member's control to change the situation. The rest of the band might be happy to continue down whatever artistic path they're on. And of course, the band and their label have to protect their corporate interests too, like I mentioned in my first post:

When bands are fortunate enough to make enough money to live off just their music, that means they have to exercise even more control over what they put out there in case in does not sell and jeopardises their future earnings/career. Sometimes, they are pushed into that position too. A relationship with a record label is like one with your boss. You both get on good, but sometimes they ask you to work harder, up your productivity, etc. All bosses have a corporate responsibility to increase sales or whatever, and they're fallible human beings who will make bad decisions and hassle their employees for silly reasons. A record label is no different.

There also tends to be a, “if it ain't broke, don't fix it” rule of thumb within the industry. “Yes, we love the music you're putting out there guys, so could you keep that up? The same, but ugh, different.”

As a listener, if you've ever grown tired of a band's output being too samey, or not daring enough, it's because either they and/or their label are afraid to rock the boat too much since there could be dire financial consequences. It doesn't mean bands can't write good music they like and have it become popular too, but it just adds another factor to the equation.

Here's a great article on a well-known mainstream band, who many people might have assumed were in control of themselves and their musical output, yet when you read the details of their personal lives, you can understand why they would not want to put their career as entertainers in jeopardy for the sake of art.

It can be a catch-22 really for some bands. Stick to the same formula; you're deemed boring after a few albums. Go a bit more mainstream to reach new horizons; you're a sell-out. Try something radical and experimental; it might not sell enough copies.

http://www.revolvermag.com/magazine/article/sevendust/

Best of luck to you El Pr0n with the music. As you rightfully say, what is the rush? People will still be listening to new music this time next year, and the year after that, and so on. :cool:

drumdrum

Fabo wrote: »

they need someone who can actually write great songs. 99% of amateur music sounds the same and is made by people who know nothing about songwriting..hence they never go anywhere

Simple fact:
In the western scale, there are 12 notes to which very few sound consonant together or when moving form one to the other. If we were to copyright interval progressions, the music industry would of died out centuries ago....


So what do you mean by "songwriting"? Thats way to vague a term to use now a days. And the fact that they "never go anywhere" is not representative of a bad song, only an unrecognised song. The more people doing something, the harder it is for the good ones to get noticed. Its the diluting effect. The more you dilute an industry with people, the harder it is for the good ones to stand out.

Songs that "go somewhere" do so these days because someone somewhere believes that money can be made from them and they have the contacts / means to help them achieve that goal.

There is no point comparing yourself to established acts and wondering how they can put out "crap music" and still sell. The simple fact is that reputation in the music industry goes a hell of way to selling music. Just ask the fans who (like myself) went out and bought Metallica's St. Anger on release day without listening to the album. Now why did we go out and buy it? Reputation. A reputation built for Metallica due to their previous albums, live shows and social parameters (ie, wanting to seem "in" with all the rocker kids...I was young.....dont judge me! )
The same thing goes for any band. For example, if fans were offered a new A Perfect Circle album to buy right now without being able to listen to it, most probably would because of the reputation APC have built with their fan base from their previous releases. Even if that album was an extended "cover" of John Cages 4'33"!!!

The problem newer bands have is essentially establishing this reputation, and sure writing good songs goes a helluva long way to establishing this. But theres no point in writing a great song, if nobody can hear it, either because of poor promotion, or it being seen as "non-radio friendly" or some other crap like that!!

Fabo

In the western scale, there are 12 notes to which very few sound consonant together or when moving form one to the other. If we were to copyright interval progressions, the music industry would of died out centuries ago....

time and time again the beatles proved you could keep writing new stuff. even before pepper people were saying there's no way they can keep writing good tunes. they had finished touring and that was the end of them, but instead they went and made some of the greatest music.

the fact that there are only 12 notes is only one side of it...tempo, how long the notes are held is another side of it. just the other day i noticed day in the life is a re-write of help but the notes are held slower so nobody notices...

food for thought