Legality of overtaking

Tefral

This may belong in the motors forum, but it is a question directly aimed at a Garda,

Say you have ideal conditions, broken white line, visability for say 500-750m in both directions, dry ground etc.

Would it be legal to over take 3-4 cars in one go? (obviously no speed limit broken here)

Say for argument sake the limit was 100km/hr and the cars being over took were doing 85km/hr.

No other reason for knowing this other than to make myself aware in case the opportunity arises..

pa990

illegal.

Anyway.. White lines would hardly be put on as straight stretch of road of 1km to 1.5km with perfect visibility with out reason.

There must be junctions, dips, climbing lanes, etc.

If you aren't able to read the road and foresee what hazards exist, maybe you shouldn't be overtaking

gerrycollins

whats the distance between the cars been overtaken

Mena

cronin_j wrote: »

Say you have ideal conditions, broken white line, visability for say 500-750m in both directions, dry ground etc.

pa990 wrote: »

illegal.

Anyway.. White lines would hardly be put on as straight stretch of road of 1km to 1.5km with perfect visibility with out reason.

There must be junctions, dips, climbing lanes, etc.

It's not a continuous white line...

McCrack

There's nothing illegal about overtaking more than one vehicle at a time so long as the move is legal and safe.

By legal I mean a broken median line and speed limit observed. By safe I mean enough distance and sight to complete without causing danger to others.

Tefral

say the there is a distance of half to one car between each car.

I meet this situation the whole time driving from limerick to dublin just before roscrea. My car is powerful enough to do the whole thing in less than 30 seconds, but i never go for it incase the middle car is a cop car, i cant see how it is illegal but id rather know first before i make the call to do it someday.

pa990

pa990 wrote: »

illegal.

How?

Tefral

pa990 wrote: »

Anyway.. White lines would hardly be put on as straight stretch of road

Eh.. They are there to divide the road down the middle, in fact all roads have white lines that i have driven on bar the country roads around my house where grass divides the road...

hierro

wouldn't try it....

if you take the example and all is perfect in the world and be it that you are only overtaking one car, you would only reach 500mts 3 seconds earlier and 750mts four seconds earier so to take three or four cars would leave it tight....

sometimes it is these decisions that cost.....


although my maths maybe flawed....

Tefral

hierro wrote: »

sometimes it is these decisions that cost.....

Oh i know what you mean, i would be careful and decisions such as these would weigh heavily on my mind but im looking to see if it is actually illegal if it was actually safe to do it.

Paddysnapper

McCrack wrote: »

There's nothing illegal about overtaking more than one vehicle at a time so long as the move is legal and safe.

By legal I mean a broken median line and speed limit observed. By safe I mean enough distance and sight to complete without causing danger to others.

I agree!

Zambia

If you are taking over 3-4 cars I am assuming you will be on the wrong side of the line for too long unless you were traveling at an un-safe speed. By this I assume the white broken line assumes the overtaking is of one car or truck.

Every time I have seen this done it is done at high speed.

Wether legal or not its a bad move.

Lurching

I really don't see how it could be illegal if you can do it at or under the speed limit and still have enough space to complete the manouver should something appear around the corner, travelling towards you also sitting at the speed limit.

Common sense prevails, but that doesn't rule out catching a Gard on a bad day.

Zambia

Lurching wrote: »

I really don't see how it could be illegal if you can do it at or under the speed limit and still have enough space to complete the manouver should something appear around the corner, travelling towards you also sitting at the speed limit.

Common sense prevails, but that doesn't rule out catching a Gard on a bad day.

The law states you cannot cross the broken white line unless safe to do so. you also cannot speed while overtaking. 3-4 cars is a combined possible 6-7 car lengths traveling at 85kmph is no easy task to overtake while staying under 100kmph in your vehicle.

So chances are you are going to either speed or be unsafe during the procedure.

Plus I can think of no single lane road I ever drove in ireland that was that straight for that long with no traffic.

concussion

To overtake 4 cars travelling at 85 km/h while travelling at 100 km/h yourself will take more than 30 s and 500 to 750 m will not give you enough road. Neither will the cars be travelling 1 to 1.5 car lengths apart.

Take four Mondeo's, each approx 4.8 m long. At 85 km/h they will travel 23.6 m every second, so obeying the 2 second rule results in a separation of 48 m. If you are following 1 second behind and intend to pull in 1 second ahead of the first car after the overtake you will need to travel 207 m @ a relative speed of 15 km/h. To overtake all the cars ahead will take you 49.75 seconds and you will cover 1381.94 m in doing so, longer if you factor in accelerating from 85 to 100 km/h.

Tefral

concussion wrote: »

To overtake 4 cars travelling at 85 km/h while travelling at 100 km/h yourself will take more than 30 s and 500 to 750 m will not give you enough road. Neither will the cars be travelling 1 to 1.5 car lengths apart.

Take four Mondeo's, each approx 4.8 m long. At 85 km/h they will travel 23.6 m every second, so obeying the 2 second rule results in a separation of 48 m. If you are following 1 second behind and intend to pull in 1 second ahead of the first car after the overtake you will need to travel 207 m @ a relative speed of 15 km/h. To overtake all the cars ahead will take you 49.75 seconds and you will cover 1381.94 m in doing so, longer if you factor in accelerating from 85 to 100 km/h.

Interesting calculation! cheers!

Still doesnt inform me though if overtaking several cars at once is deemed as careless driving if all the conditions are right on an empty road.

meathstevie

It is not careless driving if it's not done carelessly, simple as that. Personally I could think of a scenario on a road I travel nearly daily but I'm not going to go in to such detail. It can be done safely and legally but on most two lane single carraigeways it's highly unlikely.

If you're about motorways and dual carriageways it's a different story.

Fighting Irish

Garda should start harrassing people who drive to close to other vehicles, making it impossible/dangerous for other people to overtake

deadwood

concussion wrote: »

To overtake 4 cars travelling at 85 km/h while travelling at 100 km/h yourself will take more than 30 s and 500 to 750 m will not give you enough road. Neither will the cars be travelling 1 to 1.5 car lengths apart.

Take four Mondeo's, each approx 4.8 m long. At 85 km/h they will travel 23.6 m every second, so obeying the 2 second rule results in a separation of 48 m. If you are following 1 second behind and intend to pull in 1 second ahead of the first car after the overtake you will need to travel 207 m @ a relative speed of 15 km/h. To overtake all the cars ahead will take you 49.75 seconds and you will cover 1381.94 m in doing so, longer if you factor in accelerating from 85 to 100 km/h.

That's what I was going to say.

Esel

deadwood wrote: »

That's what I was going to say, but couldn't be arsed doing all those hard sums.

FYP

pah

cronin_j wrote: »

Interesting calculation! cheers!Still doesnt inform me though if overtaking several cars at once is deemed as careless driving if all the conditions are right on an empty road.

No but given the conditions you described, concussion gave you the scenario of overtaking 4 standard cars travelling @ 85km/hr, where you are 1 sec behind the tail car and pull in 1 sec ahead of the lead car, leaving no margin for error @ 100km/hr this would need 1.38km of straight road.So lets say you have 1.5km of straight road to the next bend - 700 metres into the maneouveur a car comes around the corner on the other side of the road. You still have 638 metres to go and that car is coming at you let's say at 100km/hr.I'll let concussion do the maths but you won't make that without speeding up.So really you need in excess of 2km straight road and perfect conditions.Show me the place in Ireland where this is and then YES it will be legal and it will be safe.

concussion

Keeping it simple, if the oncoming car is also travelling at 100 km/hr you have to double the distance.

If you start the manouvre you will therefore need 2600 m plus a safe distance between you and the oncoming car (say 100 m, or 2 secs, before you both occupy the same space at the same time ) in order to be utterly sure of completing the overtake. Anything less and you will not be 100% sure that a car wont come towards you while you are overtaking. Abandoning the overtake by forcing between the cars on the left would result in a gap of about 20 m (1 sec) between cars which is pretty dangerous too.

Zambia

Correct me if I am wrong but crashing into someone else is not illegal.

Its the actions that lead to that event you are prosecuted for.

Hooch

Zambia232 wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong but crashing into someone else is not illegal.

Its the actions that lead to that event you are prosecuted for.

Thats interpretation of the law (while I agree with you....). Some judges see the collision itself as dangerous driving.....and that any collision is dangerous driving.

So no matter what the facts they will convict for Sec 53, 52 or 51a

Zambia

concussion wrote: »

Keeping it simple

you lost me after this piont

Zambia

nice guy always wrote: »

Thats interpretation of the law (while I agree with you....). Some judges see the collision itself as dangerous driving.....and that any collision is dangerous driving.

So no matter what the facts they will convict for Sec 53, 52 or 51a

So by the rational employed even as there is no law against overtaking three cars.

As soon as it was explianed that you where over taking 3 cars at that speed.

One of the above sections would also easily fit the bill if a Garda decided it did.

sesna

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Garda should start harrassing people who drive to close to other vehicles, making it impossible/dangerous for other people to overtake

Maybe they are waiting for a longer stretch of road to overtake - a 1.6 litre engine car needs more clear road to complete manouver safely than the 3.5 litre engine car tailgating it.

johnmcdnl

Say the 3 cars are doing 30kph on a 100kph section of road.. because there's a tractor in front say or something..

then are you legally allowed to pass out all the cars in one go or does it have to be 1 by 1...

is it legal to pass all out at once.. that's what the OP is asking... not whether it's safe to or not... his 85kph cars were hypothetical - is it legal.. simple as that... we don't need to know the maths of how much distance he would need.. is it legal is the question

28064212

johnmcdnl wrote: »

is it legal to pass all out at once.. that's what the OP is asking... not whether it's safe to or not...

:pac: If it's safe, it's legal, if it's not, it's illegal. You can't separate the two. To answer your question, there is no legal requirement to pass cars out 1 at a time, but typically, there are fewer opportunities where you can legally (safely) pass out more than one

sesna

28064212 wrote: »

:pac: If it's safe, it's legal, if it's not, it's illegal. You can't separate the two. To answer your question, there is no legal requirement to pass cars out 1 at a time, but typically, there are fewer opportunities where you can legally (safely) pass out more than one

Off to buy a few boxes of cigarettes so.

Esel

sesna wrote: »

Off to buy a few boxes of cigarettes so.

Your deduction would be correct if the statement read 'If it's legal, it's safe'.

28064212

esel wrote: »

Your deduction would be correct if the statement read 'If it's legal, it's safe'.

Correct. Also, if the statement wasn't a direct response to a specific situation.

But to clarify my initial post: If it's safe to overtake multiple cars in a row, assuming a broken line, clear line of sight and no oncoming traffic, it's legal, if it's not, it's illegal. You can't separate the two

pah

Ok - the answer to the question is it legal? is YES - in so far as it is not against the law to overtake more than one car at a time. Overtaking several cars at once is not an offence in itself.

Tragedy

concussion wrote: »

To overtake 4 cars travelling at 85 km/h while travelling at 100 km/h yourself will take more than 30 s and 500 to 750 m will not give you enough road. Neither will the cars be travelling 1 to 1.5 car lengths apart.

Take four Mondeo's, each approx 4.8 m long. At 85 km/h they will travel 23.6 m every second, so obeying the 2 second rule results in a separation of 48 m. If you are following 1 second behind and intend to pull in 1 second ahead of the first car after the overtake you will need to travel 207 m @ a relative speed of 15 km/h. To overtake all the cars ahead will take you 49.75 seconds and you will cover 1381.94 m in doing so, longer if you factor in accelerating from 85 to 100 km/h.

The actual seperation between each of the four mondeo's will be between 5-10m if you're lucky.

So, say 56.7m of traffic to pass, which is under 14s to overtake and under 400m to travelled start to finish.

Slightly more realistic figures to what you posted.

In answer to the OP, if you're thinking of the massive straight after Dunkerrin - it's fine to overtake as many cars as you like there as long as you do it safely and don't break the speed limit. I've overtaken 20+cars there before(not in one go, 3 or 4 at a time) without going over 108km/h(according to GPS)!
Also overtook a Garda car there, he was doing 90 and I waited for my chance, overtook doing exactly 100, not a bother.

This is the straight in question btw: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=52.934807,-7.833109&hl=en&geocode=FXhxJwMdYnGH_w%3B&mra=mi&mrsp=1,0&sz=13&sll=52.921634,-7.873249&sspn=0.07845,0.222988&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13

Zambia

pah wrote: »

Ok - the answer to the question is it legal? is YES - in so far as it is not against the law to overtake more than one car at a time. Overtaking several cars at once is not an offence in itself.

I guess so , do us a favour fill out an Organ Donor card.

Esel

Sorry, we only provide complete brains.

padunne

Thats a fair stretch of a straight road. Reminds me of one on way to headford in galway. Was told it was 8 miles but not sure. Il have a look for it.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=52.934807,-7.833109&hl=en&geocode=FXhxJwMdYnGH_w%3B&mra=mi&mrsp=1,0&sz=13&sll=52.921634,-7.873249&sspn=0.07845,0.222988&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13

concussion

Tragedy wrote: »

The actual seperation between each of the four mondeo's will be between 5-10m if you're lucky.

So, say 56.7m of traffic to pass, which is under 14s to overtake and under 400m to travelled start to finish.

Slightly more realistic figures to what you posted.

In answer to the OP, if you're thinking of the massive straight after Dunkerrin - it's fine to overtake as many cars as you like there as long as you do it safely and don't break the speed limit. I've overtaken 20+cars there before(not in one go, 3 or 4 at a time) without going over 108km/h(according to GPS)!
Also overtook a Garda car there, he was doing 90 and I waited for my chance, overtook doing exactly 100, not a bother.

This is the straight in question btw: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Unknown+road&daddr=52.934807,-7.833109&hl=en&geocode=FXhxJwMdYnGH_w%3B&mra=mi&mrsp=1,0&sz=13&sll=52.921634,-7.873249&sspn=0.07845,0.222988&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=13

There are 9 intersections marked on that part of the road, which means you shouldn't be using the entire 5 km stretch to overtake.

Tragedy

concussion wrote: »

There are 9 intersections marked on that part of the road, which means you shouldn't be using the entire 5 km stretch to overtake.

The entire stretch is legal to overtake, no single white line // no overtaking signs at any point.
After doing Dublin > Limerick > Dublin lots over the last 2 years, that stretch is a blessing.

concussion

One of the answers to the question "When should you not overtake?" is "When approaching a junction."

Cookie_Monster

you should never have to overtake more than one car at once but because nobody ever leaves a big enough gap you frequently do. Having said that, its perfectly legal to do if safe to do so.

Tragedy

concussion wrote: »

One of the answers to the question "When should you not overtake?" is "When approaching a junction."

They aren't junctions unless signed and marked as such.

concussion

What are your sources for this? I would be interested in seeing the definition of a junction, seeing as this discussion is about the legality of overtaking.

Saruman

The way I look at it is this. Two or three cars are about the length of an artic so if it is safe to overtake the truck it would be just as safe to overtake the two or three cars that are driving too close and not overtaking.

I say just because there is the added risk of one of the cars at the last second deciding to overtake the one in front and not noticing you.

Tragedy

concussion wrote: »

What are your sources for this? I would be interested in seeing the definition of a junction, seeing as this discussion is about the legality of overtaking.

Because it's not illegal to overtake at a junction, it's illegal to overtake where there are no overtaking signs (via continuous white line).

25. (1) Where traffic sign number RRM 001 [continuous white line] has been provided on a roadway or where two such traffic signs are provided in parallel, a driver shall not cross that sign or signs.


(2) Where traffic sign number RRM 002 [broken white line] has been provided on a roadway, a driver shall not cross that line, save where it can be crossed without danger to other traffic or pedestrians.


(3) Where traffic sign number RRM 001 and traffic sign number RRM 002 have been provided in parallel and traffic sign RRM 001 is nearer, a driver shall not cross such line, and where traffic sign number RRM 002 is nearer, a driver shall not cross the line save where it can be crossed without danger to other traffic or pedestrians.


(4) Nothing in this article shall so operate as to prevent a driver from driving across a roadway, along the centre of which the traffic signs referred to have been provided, for the purpose of entering or leaving land or premises adjoining the right hand side of that roadway.

The only mention of overtaking at junctions I can find anywhere in statutes is this from 1937, and I have no idea whether it's still active or not.

(1) Whenever a vehicle (in this paragraph referred to as the overtaking vehicle) is passing on a roadway another vehicle (in this paragraph referred to as the overtaken vehicle) proceeding in the same direction as the overtaking vehicle, the following provisions shall apply and have effect, viz.:—


(a) the driver of the overtaking vehicle shall not pass or attempt to pass the overtaken vehicle in such manner or circumstances as to cause inconvenience to the overtaken vehicle or to any other traffic ;


(b) the driver of the overtaking vehicle shall not, for the purpose of passing the overtaken vehicle, drive the overtaking vehicle on the right side of the centre of such roadway or on the right side of the traffic lane appropriate to the overtaking vehicle unless there is clearly visible to such driver a portion on such roadway which—


(i) is available for the overtaking vehicle, and


(ii) is free from approaching traffic and any obstruction, and


(iii) is sufficient in length and width for the safe completion of such passing, due allowance being made for the possibility of approaching traffic suddenly appearing ;


(c) the driver of the overtaking vehicle shall pass the overtaken vehicle on the right side of the overtaken vehicle and shall not close in towards the left until the passing has been completed and such closing in will not cause inconvenience to the driver of the overtaken vehicle ;


(d) the driver of the overtaking vehicle shall not pass or attempt to pass the overtaken vehicle when approaching a road junction in such circumstances that such passing will not be completed before the overtaking vehicle is within thirty feet of such road junction unless either—


(i) the driver of the overtaking vehicle has a clear view of the traffic at such road junction and the traffic approaching it from every direction and there is no such traffic which would be inconvenienced by such passing, or


(ii) the driver of the overtaking vehicle has been authorised to proceed by a signal lawfully given by a member of the Gárda Síochána or a mechanical traffic control signal ;

Zambia

2 or 3 cars are not the length of an artic :rolleyes:

Esel

Tragedy wrote: »

Because it's not illegal to overtake at a junction, it's illegal to overtake where there are no overtaking signs (via continuous white line).

When approaching a junction on the right, it may not be illegal to overtake, but it is definitely brain-dead stupid - unless you can can clearly see that there is no traffic approaching the junction on the other road.

Saruman

Zambia232 wrote: »

2 or 3 cars are not the length of an artic :rolleyes:

Care to explain how that is?

Zambia

Saruman wrote: »

Care to explain how that is?

Three cars will not be travelling nose to nose they could have, 1 to two cars spaces in fact they should at least have about 2-3 car spaces if travelling at 80Kmph

Ergo thats 3 cars plus a minium of 2 car spaces for 2 of them. Thats 7 Cars at least.

Tragedy

18.75m = average length of artic.

Toyota Corolla = 4.2m
3x Corolla = 12.6m
Gap of 3m between cars at 80km/h is pretty realistic here in ireland.

Zambia

Tragedy wrote: »

18.75m = average length of artic.

Toyota Corolla = 4.2m
3x Corolla = 12.6m
Gap of 3m between cars at 80km/h is pretty realistic here in ireland.

There is a whole other point rising its head there, is 3 M between cars realistic

At 80 kmph, the reaction time i.e. when you take your foot off the accelerator and onto the brake pedal is 15 metres. The braking distance is another 38 metres. So, you need 53 metres to come to a complete halt. This is the shortest stopping distance in perfect conditions, that is if your tyres and brakes are good, the road is dry and the visibility is good. If the visibility is poor and roads are wet then the stopping distance will increase.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2005/20050806/saturday/motoring.htm

Sorry the article is from the Indian tribune. But I will assume unless corrected that the info is true.

The article also does not equate for the car ahead still moving even if the brakes are hit. But even cutting it in half thats still way to short a distance