Weightlifting Query

Duffman'05

Hi all,

Can anyone give me advice on the shoulder press exercise? Do you bring your elbows/triceps down until they touch your ribs or do you just go until your elbows are on a parallel with your shoulders?

Does bringing them down the full way give you extra strength over time?

cardio,shoot me

Duffman'05 wrote: »

Hi all,

Can anyone give me advice on the shoulder press exercise? Do you bring your elbows/triceps down until they touch your ribs or do you just go until your elbows are on a parallel with your shoulders?

Does bringing them down the full way give you extra strength over time?

i usually bring the bar down to touch my chest

and with dumbells i bring the middle of the dumbell level with my ears

Hugh Jarms

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Red Cortina

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Are you talking about limitiing your range of motion as you increase the weight? Surely you should only lift with a weight in which you can use the full range of motion???

kevpants

The bar or dumbell should go below your chin otherwise it's really only a partial movement.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Thats exactly the wrong way to do it. It's like benching without touching your chest or not squatting below parallel. Of course its going to be "harder to get back up" when the weight gets heavier, but to get it back up you need to get stronger not limit the ROM to make it easier.

See what Kevpants said.

Hugh Jarms

Imo bringing the dumbell below your chin for each rep is far too low. I never really see anyone do this. Bringing it down level with your ears is ideal for me anyway and that's how i see most people in gyms and on videos doing it. But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

Inspector Coptoor

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

bringing it lower works better for most people as it's the correct way to perform the exercise while recruting all the muscle heads in a full range of motion.

There's nothing wrong with going heavy. Heavy is good.
But it shouldn't be at the expense of form or ROM.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

Imo bringing the dumbell below your chin for each rep is far too low. I never really see anyone do this. Bringing it down level with your ears is ideal for me anyway and that's how i see most people in gyms and on videos doing it. But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

I'm afraid its not a matter of what works for you, it's a matter of doing it the right way or the wrong way. The way you are doing it is wrong.

Hugh Jarms

briankeating wrote: »

I'm afraid its not a matter of what works for you, it's a matter of doing it the right way or the wrong way. The way you are doing it is wrong.

I really think you are misinterpreting how i'm actually doing this exercise.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I really think you are misinterpreting how i'm actually doing this exercise.

There is a chance of that. However, what you are describing is a partial ROM shoulder press, which is wrong. I see plenty of people doing them all the time in the gym as well, but that doesn't make it right.

eclectichoney

I bring the dumbells down to about shoulder level, a bit like this:
http://www.strongshape.com/images/seated-shoulder-press.gif

but there are a lot of pictures / youtube vids where people tend to do the ear level thing, keeping your elbow at more of a right angle.

DL Saint

I have to agree with Mr. Jarms here. You should bring the weights down as far as your ears and no further, any further and you risk injury and it does not benifit the Deltoids any further.
Well thats the way the pro's do it anyway, and who could argue with 8 times Mr. Olympia Big Ronnie Coleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoiKfpbhQys&feature=related

Tigger

op what are your goals?

Brian?

DL Saint wrote: »

I have to agree with Mr. Jarms here. You should bring the weights down as far as your ears and no further, any further and you risk injury and it does not benifit the Deltoids any further.
Well thats the way the pro's do it anyway, and who could argue with 8 times Mr. Olympia Big Ronnie Coleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoiKfpbhQys&feature=related

I am going to argue with his form, not the man himself. He's doing a partial ROM shoulder press there, there's no doubt about it. I believe there is a reason behind this though, not sure what it is. You rarely see advanced bodybuilders use a full ROM when pressing, either bench or overhead, but I've never read a decent explanation for why they do it.

Tigger

http://theswole.com/swole/the-partial-r-o-m/

partials have some uses for people that are advanced

beginners should, in my opinion, do full rom till they need to do additional support exercises

kevpants

Uuuurrrghgh...

As a beginner partial ROM exercise are just a way of claiming you can lift more than you can and no links to Ronnie Coleman change that.

Pro bodybuilders do partial movements because they're interested in going to absolute failure and tearing down muscle completely because their blood floweth over with so much crap to rebuild. All they want to achieve is hypertrophy at the extreme scale. They are so far removed from your average gym noobie it's not funny. Do you think a guy who's 300lbs of lean muscle has the same concerns about building a base of supporting muscle that a 140lb teenager has? Then why are you copying him?

The thing is, partial movements are easy. It's handy to emulate a bodybuilder not bringing a bar to his chest when benching and claim big numbers. The bodybuilder doesn't care about numbers he cares about getting as many crappy reps as he can so his muscles are torn assunder. He has a plan, you're just a big smelly copycat.

Partials will come into your training if you start out doing things right and become a student of what you're training for. For example a board press or floor press is a great tricep exercise or aid to bench pressing strength but the decision to do them comes from building a base of regular benching and realising you have a weakpoint.

So it's true to say Coleman knows what he's doing with those partial movements but he knows the exact reasoning behind it. He's not doing it because he saw Arnie do it once. So the message is start out doing things right and don't cheat, you're kidding yourself.

DL Saint

kevpants wrote: »

Uuuurrrghgh...

As a beginner partial ROM exercise are just a way of claiming you can lift more than you can and no links to Ronnie Coleman change that.

Pro bodybuilders do partial movements because they're interested in going to absolute failure and tearing down muscle completely because their blood floweth over with so much crap to rebuild. All they want to achieve is hypertrophy at the extreme scale. They are so far removed from your average gym noobie it's not funny. Do you think a guy who's 300lbs of lean muscle has the same concerns about building a base of supporting muscle that a 140lb teenager has? Then why are you copying him?

The thing is, partial movements are easy. It's handy to emulate a bodybuilder not bringing a bar to his chest when benching and claim big numbers. The bodybuilder doesn't care about numbers he cares about getting as many crappy reps as he can so his muscles are torn assunder. He has a plan, you're just a big smelly copycat.

Partials will come into your training if you start out doing things right and become a student of what you're training for. For example a board press or floor press is a great tricep exercise or aid to bench pressing strength but the decision to do them comes from building a base of regular benching and realising you have a weakpoint.

So it's true to say Coleman knows what he's doing with those partial movements but he knows the exact reasoning behind it. He's not doing it because he saw Arnie do it once. So the message is start out doing things right and don't cheat, you're kidding yourself.

Eh... sorry there mate I am not a "gym noobie" as you put it and I certainly don't weigh a measly 140lbs.
I work to failure and tear up my shoulders just as the pro-bodybuilders do and I am able to do this because I have my diet and rest down to a T.
And doing the shoulder press this way is working wonders for me.
Infact I was shown how to execute this exercise perfectly from an early stage by a very highly rated personal trainer!

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

El_Drago

DL Saint wrote: »

Eh... sorry there mate I am not a "gym noobie" as you put it and I certainly don't weigh a measly 140lbs.
I work to failure and tear up my shoulders just as the pro-bodybuilders do and I am able to do this because I have my diet and rest down to a T.
And doing the shoulder press this way is working wonders for me.
Infact I was shown how to execute this exercise perfectly from an early stage by a very highly rated personal trainer!

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

I'm certain he didn't mean what you think he did.Anyway, who cares, we all have to start somewhere.

What Kevpants said is spot on.If I were you I'd concentrate more on lifting only as much weight as I could handle with full ROM rather than getting bogged down with numbers and partial ROM.

rayraydrummer

hey, just a quick off topic question is it easier to bulk up to get rid of fat or rip down eg running?

Tigger

DL Saint wrote: »

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

Transform

Tigger wrote: »

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

who cares - just do a standing push press or push jerk. will do more for your shoulders and many other muscles than a seated dumbbell press.

And the obligitory question to the original poster - what do you currently weigh/height, shoulder press, deadlift, squat and bench??

cardio,shoot me

Transform wrote: »

who cares - just do a standing push press or push jerk. will do more for your shoulders and many other muscles than a seated dumbbell press.

why not just do a standing barbell press? push press and push jerk put too much emphasis on technique than strength.

d'Oracle

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

why not just do a standing barbell press? push press and push jerk put too much emphasis on technique than strength.

I would have said they put too much emphasis on legs.

Hugh Jarms

Tigger wrote: »

then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners

Exactly!!!

DL Saint

Tigger wrote: »

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

Fair enough, I was just curious. Didn't mean to offend!

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

I would have said they put too much emphasis on legs.

Not really.

Dravokivich

I'd bring it down to be level with / just slightly over my shoulders. That's how I was shown to use the "Shoulder Press Machine," in the gym.

d'Oracle

briankeating wrote: »

Not really.

OK so...

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

OK so...

Excellent, we're in agreement.

d'Oracle

briankeating wrote: »

Excellent, we're in agreement.

No, not at all, but I'm not getting into an argument about it.