Weightlifting Query

Duffman'05

Hi all,

Can anyone give me advice on the shoulder press exercise? Do you bring your elbows/triceps down until they touch your ribs or do you just go until your elbows are on a parallel with your shoulders?

Does bringing them down the full way give you extra strength over time?

cardio,shoot me

Duffman'05 wrote: »

Hi all,

Can anyone give me advice on the shoulder press exercise? Do you bring your elbows/triceps down until they touch your ribs or do you just go until your elbows are on a parallel with your shoulders?

Does bringing them down the full way give you extra strength over time?

i usually bring the bar down to touch my chest

and with dumbells i bring the middle of the dumbell level with my ears

Hugh Jarms

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Red Cortina

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Are you talking about limitiing your range of motion as you increase the weight? Surely you should only lift with a weight in which you can use the full range of motion???

kevpants

The bar or dumbell should go below your chin otherwise it's really only a partial movement.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I usually bring the dumbells down so they are level with my head. The further you bring the weight down the harder it is to get it back up. When you start doing heavy weights it will be more beneficial to bring it down to your head (at the lowest). This way you have more control and balance over the weight than you would have if you brought it down to your cheat or shoulders.

Thats exactly the wrong way to do it. It's like benching without touching your chest or not squatting below parallel. Of course its going to be "harder to get back up" when the weight gets heavier, but to get it back up you need to get stronger not limit the ROM to make it easier.

See what Kevpants said.

Hugh Jarms

Imo bringing the dumbell below your chin for each rep is far too low. I never really see anyone do this. Bringing it down level with your ears is ideal for me anyway and that's how i see most people in gyms and on videos doing it. But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

Inspector Coptoor

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

bringing it lower works better for most people as it's the correct way to perform the exercise while recruting all the muscle heads in a full range of motion.

There's nothing wrong with going heavy. Heavy is good.
But it shouldn't be at the expense of form or ROM.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

Imo bringing the dumbell below your chin for each rep is far too low. I never really see anyone do this. Bringing it down level with your ears is ideal for me anyway and that's how i see most people in gyms and on videos doing it. But bringing it lower perhaps works better for other people.

I'm afraid its not a matter of what works for you, it's a matter of doing it the right way or the wrong way. The way you are doing it is wrong.

Hugh Jarms

briankeating wrote: »

I'm afraid its not a matter of what works for you, it's a matter of doing it the right way or the wrong way. The way you are doing it is wrong.

I really think you are misinterpreting how i'm actually doing this exercise.

Brian?

Hugh Jarms wrote: »

I really think you are misinterpreting how i'm actually doing this exercise.

There is a chance of that. However, what you are describing is a partial ROM shoulder press, which is wrong. I see plenty of people doing them all the time in the gym as well, but that doesn't make it right.

eclectichoney

I bring the dumbells down to about shoulder level, a bit like this:
http://www.strongshape.com/images/seated-shoulder-press.gif

but there are a lot of pictures / youtube vids where people tend to do the ear level thing, keeping your elbow at more of a right angle.

DL Saint

I have to agree with Mr. Jarms here. You should bring the weights down as far as your ears and no further, any further and you risk injury and it does not benifit the Deltoids any further.
Well thats the way the pro's do it anyway, and who could argue with 8 times Mr. Olympia Big Ronnie Coleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoiKfpbhQys&feature=related

Tigger

op what are your goals?

Brian?

DL Saint wrote: »

I have to agree with Mr. Jarms here. You should bring the weights down as far as your ears and no further, any further and you risk injury and it does not benifit the Deltoids any further.
Well thats the way the pro's do it anyway, and who could argue with 8 times Mr. Olympia Big Ronnie Coleman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoiKfpbhQys&feature=related

I am going to argue with his form, not the man himself. He's doing a partial ROM shoulder press there, there's no doubt about it. I believe there is a reason behind this though, not sure what it is. You rarely see advanced bodybuilders use a full ROM when pressing, either bench or overhead, but I've never read a decent explanation for why they do it.

Tigger

http://theswole.com/swole/the-partial-r-o-m/

partials have some uses for people that are advanced

beginners should, in my opinion, do full rom till they need to do additional support exercises

kevpants

Uuuurrrghgh...

As a beginner partial ROM exercise are just a way of claiming you can lift more than you can and no links to Ronnie Coleman change that.

Pro bodybuilders do partial movements because they're interested in going to absolute failure and tearing down muscle completely because their blood floweth over with so much crap to rebuild. All they want to achieve is hypertrophy at the extreme scale. They are so far removed from your average gym noobie it's not funny. Do you think a guy who's 300lbs of lean muscle has the same concerns about building a base of supporting muscle that a 140lb teenager has? Then why are you copying him?

The thing is, partial movements are easy. It's handy to emulate a bodybuilder not bringing a bar to his chest when benching and claim big numbers. The bodybuilder doesn't care about numbers he cares about getting as many crappy reps as he can so his muscles are torn assunder. He has a plan, you're just a big smelly copycat.

Partials will come into your training if you start out doing things right and become a student of what you're training for. For example a board press or floor press is a great tricep exercise or aid to bench pressing strength but the decision to do them comes from building a base of regular benching and realising you have a weakpoint.

So it's true to say Coleman knows what he's doing with those partial movements but he knows the exact reasoning behind it. He's not doing it because he saw Arnie do it once. So the message is start out doing things right and don't cheat, you're kidding yourself.

DL Saint

kevpants wrote: »

Uuuurrrghgh...

As a beginner partial ROM exercise are just a way of claiming you can lift more than you can and no links to Ronnie Coleman change that.

Pro bodybuilders do partial movements because they're interested in going to absolute failure and tearing down muscle completely because their blood floweth over with so much crap to rebuild. All they want to achieve is hypertrophy at the extreme scale. They are so far removed from your average gym noobie it's not funny. Do you think a guy who's 300lbs of lean muscle has the same concerns about building a base of supporting muscle that a 140lb teenager has? Then why are you copying him?

The thing is, partial movements are easy. It's handy to emulate a bodybuilder not bringing a bar to his chest when benching and claim big numbers. The bodybuilder doesn't care about numbers he cares about getting as many crappy reps as he can so his muscles are torn assunder. He has a plan, you're just a big smelly copycat.

Partials will come into your training if you start out doing things right and become a student of what you're training for. For example a board press or floor press is a great tricep exercise or aid to bench pressing strength but the decision to do them comes from building a base of regular benching and realising you have a weakpoint.

So it's true to say Coleman knows what he's doing with those partial movements but he knows the exact reasoning behind it. He's not doing it because he saw Arnie do it once. So the message is start out doing things right and don't cheat, you're kidding yourself.

Eh... sorry there mate I am not a "gym noobie" as you put it and I certainly don't weigh a measly 140lbs.
I work to failure and tear up my shoulders just as the pro-bodybuilders do and I am able to do this because I have my diet and rest down to a T.
And doing the shoulder press this way is working wonders for me.
Infact I was shown how to execute this exercise perfectly from an early stage by a very highly rated personal trainer!

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

El_Drago

DL Saint wrote: »

Eh... sorry there mate I am not a "gym noobie" as you put it and I certainly don't weigh a measly 140lbs.
I work to failure and tear up my shoulders just as the pro-bodybuilders do and I am able to do this because I have my diet and rest down to a T.
And doing the shoulder press this way is working wonders for me.
Infact I was shown how to execute this exercise perfectly from an early stage by a very highly rated personal trainer!

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

I'm certain he didn't mean what you think he did.Anyway, who cares, we all have to start somewhere.

What Kevpants said is spot on.If I were you I'd concentrate more on lifting only as much weight as I could handle with full ROM rather than getting bogged down with numbers and partial ROM.

rayraydrummer

hey, just a quick off topic question is it easier to bulk up to get rid of fat or rip down eg running?

Tigger

DL Saint wrote: »

@ Tigger OP never said he was a beginner, so are you just presuming he is because of the nature of his original post?

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

Transform

Tigger wrote: »

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

who cares - just do a standing push press or push jerk. will do more for your shoulders and many other muscles than a seated dumbbell press.

And the obligitory question to the original poster - what do you currently weigh/height, shoulder press, deadlift, squat and bench??

cardio,shoot me

Transform wrote: »

who cares - just do a standing push press or push jerk. will do more for your shoulders and many other muscles than a seated dumbbell press.

why not just do a standing barbell press? push press and push jerk put too much emphasis on technique than strength.

d'Oracle

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

why not just do a standing barbell press? push press and push jerk put too much emphasis on technique than strength.

I would have said they put too much emphasis on legs.

Hugh Jarms

Tigger wrote: »

then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners

Exactly!!!

DL Saint

Tigger wrote: »

i presumed nothing i asked what op's goals were then i linked to a fella explaining partials and thier benifits

then i found this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65033369&postcount=1


then i said partials have uses for advanced people and full rom reps are in my opinion better for beginners i didn't mean to infer which the op was (sorry if i upset anyone)

i recently took 50kg off my squat so i could build it up deeper; so now i bench more than i squat , if i'd squatted deeper from the beginning i'd be better off.(again in my opinion)

Fair enough, I was just curious. Didn't mean to offend!

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

I would have said they put too much emphasis on legs.

Not really.

Dravokivich

I'd bring it down to be level with / just slightly over my shoulders. That's how I was shown to use the "Shoulder Press Machine," in the gym.

d'Oracle

briankeating wrote: »

Not really.

OK so...

Brian?

d'Oracle wrote: »

OK so...

Excellent, we're in agreement.

d'Oracle

briankeating wrote: »

Excellent, we're in agreement.

No, not at all, but I'm not getting into an argument about it.

kevpants

Regarding push presses.

One question I've always wants to know the answer to.

Why?

What's the point? I know it's not your legs helping as such, it's worse. It's momentum. That's not even a part of you.

It's like kipping pullups. Are you doing them so you can do more of them or are you trying to elicit a training effect? Here's where Crossfit gets some forgiveness from me, at least the pullup or overhead press is the actual sport there. And the rules of the sport dictate you can cheat a bit so that's fine.

For training effect though it makes no sense to me.

ragg

Isn't the push press used to help progress your strict Military press?

You cheat to get the weight up, then lower it slowly, kind of like a negative chinup??

also, I think its used to develop power in some training programs

Brian?

kevpants wrote: »

Regarding push presses.

One question I've always wants to know the answer to.

Why?

I alternate push pressing and strict military pressing because the sticking point of my military press is just above my head. Push presses help me push through that sticking point and increase my strict press. I suppose its not that different to doing board or floor presses for bench.

Transform

who cares again - putting 100kg+ overhead any way is very impressive and i have never seen a guy with small shoudlers put over 100kg overhead with a push press.

too many people debate the finer points on training effect but the massive point it just get bloody stronger and use what ever means necessary (well no lateral and front raises please)

d'Oracle

kevpants wrote: »

Regarding push presses.

One question I've always wants to know the answer to.

Why?

What's the point?

An assistance exercise for the overhead press, according to Bill Starr anyway.

Duffman'05

Transform wrote: »

who cares - just do a standing push press or push jerk. will do more for your shoulders and many other muscles than a seated dumbbell press.

And the obligitory question to the original poster - what do you currently weigh/height, shoulder press, deadlift, squat and bench??

I'm 6ft 2'', weigh 77kg and bench press 32.5kg dumbbells. As someone earlier highlighted in a link to a previous post of mine, I'm somewhat of a beginner, about 11 months under my belt of proper consistent weight lifting. I've been trying everything with the shoulder press but have been making next to no progress, whereas I've gone from benching 20kg to 32.5kg dumbbells and curling 10kg to 20kg, so the lack of gain in my shoulders is somewhat frustrating! I'm hovering around 18Kg dumbbells for shoulder press, I currently bring the weights down until my triceps are resting against my ribs and push up until my elbows are locked with my arms straight up.

My goals are to get a steady and balanced overall increase in both size and 'real strength' - ie I want to be able to one day (there's a loooong way to go to this I know!!:o ) bench 50kg dumbbells with 3 sets of 12 reps with proper extension - bringing the weights as far down as is safe to do so. The same goes for all of my other muscle groups (proportionally equivalent weights of course).

My apologies if I'm being a bit vague... I'm just looking for the best and most efficient way to build up my shoulders to get them back into proportion with my arms.

Thanks for all the advice so far though!

cardio,shoot me

Transform wrote: »

who cares again - putting 100kg+ overhead any way is very impressive and i have never seen a guy with small shoudlers put over 100kg overhead with a push press.

too many people debate the finer points on training effect but the massive point it just get bloody stronger and use what ever means necessary (well no lateral and front raises please)

we arent debating the finer points, someone mentioned it as an assistance, which i agree with, but in your post you didnt even mention the simple standing barbell press.

token

kevpants wrote: »

Regarding push presses.

One question I've always wants to know the answer to.

Why?

What's the point? I know it's not your legs helping as such, it's worse. It's momentum. That's not even a part of you.

It's like kipping pullups. Are you doing them so you can do more of them or are you trying to elicit a training effect? Here's where Crossfit gets some forgiveness from me, at least the pullup or overhead press is the actual sport there. And the rules of the sport dictate you can cheat a bit so that's fine.

For training effect though it makes no sense to me.

One question I've always wanted to know is why people think momentum is cheating all the time. Oh you got 100kg from the ground to over your head but by gum you used momentum. So what?

Like strength is a trainable quality so is being able to generate force quickly and last time I checked that's pretty useful in sports. Are you saying people such as Rugby players are are wasting their time with Oly lift variations and plyometrics?

kevpants

token wrote: »

One question I've always wanted to know is why people think momentum is cheating all the time. Oh you got 100kg from the ground to over your head but by gum you used momentum. So what?

Like strength is a trainable quality so is being able to generate force quickly and last time I checked that's pretty useful in sports. Are you saying people such as Rugby players are are wasting their time with Oly lift variations and plyometrics?

You aren't comparing the push press to the snatch are you? With that logic all cheated lifts are "olympic style".

and rugby players probably are wating their time because the learning process for olympic lifts is so long the training effect of them on people whose primary focus is not actually doing them is debatable.

my problem with momentum is people using it in place of muscle. but like i said if the end goal is max numbers in that lift and alittle momentum is allowed thats fine. i just don't see a reason for push presses for shoulders. It's like floor presses for chest, legitimate exercise but not for what you want.

Not an exact comparison there but however.

Hugh Jarms

Duffman'05 wrote: »

I've been trying everything with the shoulder press but have been making next to no progress, whereas I've gone from benching 20kg to 32.5kg dumbbells and curling 10kg to 20kg, so the lack of gain in my shoulders is somewhat frustrating!

I find the dumbell shoulder press the most difficult dumbell exercise to increase the weight in. I think it might have something to do with how awkward the exercise is in terms of balance and getting the weights up in the first place. Just be patient with it and you will start to increase the weight in no time.

token

kevpants wrote:

You aren't comparing the push press to the snatch are you? With that logic all cheated lifts are "olympic style".

and rugby players probably are wating their time because the learning process for olympic lifts is so long the training effect of them on people whose primary focus is not actually doing them is debatable.

I'm not necessarily saying the full lifts which is why I said variations. Meaning Powercleans, Powersnatches, Power Jerks, Push Presses etc. For the same reason you said because of the time constraints of learning the full lifts. On a side note though I personally think the difficulty of the olympic lifts are overstated.

kevpants wrote:

my problem with momentum is people using it in place of muscle. but like i said if the end goal is max numbers in that lift and alittle momentum is allowed thats fine. i just don't see a reason for push presses for shoulders. It's like floor presses for chest, legitimate exercise but not for what you want.

Not an exact comparison there but however.

In the context of talking about muscle groups, their size & strength then yeah I agree with you. I just jumped at your post because I picked it up as why would you want to push presses EVER.

d'Oracle

kevpants wrote: »

and rugby players probably are wating their time because the learning process for olympic lifts is so long the training effect of them on people whose primary focus is not actually doing them is debatable.

That's nonsense dude. They take a few weeks to learn at most. If you want to compete, then sure, you could take years to perfect them, but you only need passable technique to get the training benefit.

The debate behind them is down to people assuming that a trainee needs to be as proficient as a competitive lifter to get the benefit, which is bloody stupid.

g'em

kevpants wrote: »

You aren't comparing the push press to the snatch are you? With that logic all cheated lifts are "olympic style".

They are comparable. Similarly the jerk and the push press are comparable. The push press is primarily a power lift, just like the oly lifts.

kevpants wrote:

and rugby players probably are wating their time because the learning process for olympic lifts is so long the training effect of them on people whose primary focus is not actually doing them is debatable.

not really. It takes between 3-5 years to get proficient in the oly lifts for competitive purposes. It takes 3-5 weeks to get proficient in the oly lifts for s&c purposes. The IRFU have now almost countrywide implemented s&c training programs that rely heavily on the oly lifts for power development - with all of the variations on the movements (pulls, hangs, power versions) it's easy to get a player to learn them and benefit from them. You just have to know which is the important bit for the player to get right i.e. a solid second pull and a good triple extension

kevpants wrote:

my problem with momentum is people using it in place of muscle. but like i said if the end goal is max numbers in that lift and alittle momentum is allowed thats fine. i just don't see a reason for push presses for shoulders. It's like floor presses for chest, legitimate exercise but not for what you want.

I agree - I don't think push presses are as good as other exercises. Personally I think it's a great exercises for other things though (I use it as a way to get women comfortable with OH barbell work) and it's a "beginners" introduction to hip extension.

Tigger

Duffman'05 wrote: »

I'm 6ft 2'', weigh 77kg and bench press 32.5kg dumbbells. As someone earlier highlighted in a link to a previous post of mine, I'm somewhat of a beginner, about 11 months under my belt of proper consistent weight lifting. I've been trying everything with the shoulder press but have been making next to no progress, whereas I've gone from benching 20kg to 32.5kg dumbbells and curling 10kg to 20kg, so the lack of gain in my shoulders is somewhat frustrating! I'm hovering around 18Kg dumbbells for shoulder press, I currently bring the weights down until my triceps are resting against my ribs and push up until my elbows are locked with my arms straight up.

My goals are to get a steady and balanced overall increase in both size and 'real strength' - ie I want to be able to one day (there's a loooong way to go to this I know!!:o ) bench 50kg dumbbells with 3 sets of 12 reps with proper extension - bringing the weights as far down as is safe to do so. The same goes for all of my other muscle groups (proportionally equivalent weights of course).

My apologies if I'm being a bit vague... I'm just looking for the best and most efficient way to build up my shoulders to get them back into proportion with my arms.

Thanks for all the advice so far though!

do this


http://stronglifts.com/stronglifts-5x5-beginner-strength-training-program/

it gets you getting strong nice and fast

do it for 6 months and you'l be much much stronger than you are now

token

g'em wrote: »

It takes between 3-5 years to get proficient in the oly lifts for competitive purposes. It takes 3-5 weeks to get proficient in the oly lifts for s&c purposes.

Agree with this. There a belief going around that to get any benefit out of olympic lifts you have to spend years learning and perfecting them. That level of perfection is only required if you want to compete competively at the actual sport of weightlifting itself. Once you have the basic mechanics down which take a few weeks you will start to see the benefits.

Inspector Coptoor

Transform wrote: »

just get bloody stronger and use what ever means necessary (well no lateral and front raises please)

what's wrong with doing some lateral and front raises after a shoulder pressing workout that involves BB Press, push press or seated DB Press?

Will Heffernan

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

what's wrong with doing some lateral and front raises after a shoulder pressing workout that involves BB Press, push press or seated DB Press?

Yes....what is wrong with doing lateral and front raises...is there some sort of rule I didn't know about? What about rear laterals? What about shrugs and incline shrugs? Oh my god....what about cleans? That's practically a two handed lateral raise....does this mean I have to do all my push presses out of a rack now? This is going to be a nightmare. If someone has gone and changed human physiology again and not sent me a memo I am going to be really mad...I hate it when they do that :eek:.

Transform

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

what's wrong with doing some lateral and front raises after a shoulder pressing workout that involves BB Press, push press or seated DB Press?

there is NOTHING wrong with them its really a bang for your buck issue - whats more important to focus on a push press, dumbell press etc or lots of 18-25yr old guys doing lateral raises and ignoring any kind of standing pressing because they feel the lateral/front raises give them a better 'pump'

So am i going to use them much in programming? NO as i think there are better choices.
Do they have a purpose - yes rehab work etc

g'em

I've deleted a rake of posts from this thread and will continue to delete any further posts on any thread that are not constructive and on-topic and in some way contributing to the matter at hand.

I don't wnat to hear about other posters' styles of writing on thread, I don't want anyone to call anyone else out, if you'd like someone to contribute on thread, pm them or draw their attention to it.

It's absolute mindless nonsense, all of it, and the mess is drowning out some really excellent information dissemination that we've had over the last few days.

So please, I'm asking you all, post constructively and on-topic or not at all.

kevpants

g'em wrote: »

They are comparable. Similarly the jerk and the push press are comparable. The push press is primarily a power lift, just like the oly lifts.

Hmmm, to me a push press is a military press with a courtsey at the start. I don't know how a little bend of the knees to take the load off the shoulders is going to make anyone into a more powerful individual over time. Is it not conceivable that people should become more powerful at lifting the bar with their shoulders? Surely not everything has to come from the hips?

not really. It takes between 3-5 years to get proficient in the oly lifts for competitive purposes. It takes 3-5 weeks to get proficient in the oly lifts for s&c purposes. The IRFU have now almost countrywide implemented s&c training programs that rely heavily on the oly lifts for power development - with all of the variations on the movements (pulls, hangs, power versions) it's easy to get a player to learn them and benefit from them. You just have to know which is the important bit for the player to get right i.e. a solid second pull and a good triple extension

Yeah that was kind of a throwaway comment from myself there. I know nothing of the Olympic lifts. I'm pleasantly suprised that they can be learned that readily. I would have thought longer. I guess I see the push press as more of a cheat lift than a power lift. I have an issue with kipping pullups for the same reason. I just prefer to do it "right".

I agree - I don't think push presses are as good as other exercises. Personally I think it's a great exercises for other things though (I use it as a way to get women comfortable with OH barbell work) and it's a "beginners" introduction to hip extension.

Ok that makes sense in that context.

I'm actually introducing wifepants to the world of overhead pressing at the moment. She won't be push pressing though :P