Freeze and implications for 50/50 ?

Delancey

That recruitment to the P.S.N.I. has been frozen is not all that surprising given the level of public spending cuts - what I am really surprised is that this freeze has been implemented before the 30% RC representation target has been reached.
I suppose I had always believed that target (modest enough though it is , in my opinion ) was ' sacrosanct ' , as many of you know 50/50 was due to end earlier this year but was extended for a further year amid promises by the P.S.N.I. that this was positively the last year for it and after March 2011 the 30% RC target would be reached and 50/50 would end.

What happens now I wonder ? The 30% RC target will not be met and I believe this could lead to strain between the Policing Board ( some members anyway ) and the P.S.N.I. management.
Whenever recruitment resumes the target will still have to be met - it was one of the basic recommendations of the Patten report after all - how will they achieve this I wonder ? Extend 50/50 yet again ?

BTW folks not looking for a debate on the fairness or otherwise of 50/50 recruitment.

VES86

i think the 50/50 will definately be extended. the 30% is the minimum expected so the recruimrnt will have to fullfill that when the cold front is over.

the reaction of alex maskey when the freeze was first announced is enough to say that there is no way certain memebers of the board will allow the quota to not be met

shampon

VES86 wrote: »

i think the 50/50 will definately be extended. the 30% is the minimum expected so the recruimrnt will have to fullfill that when the cold front is over.

the reaction of alex maskey when the freeze was first announced is enough to say that there is no way certain memebers of the board will allow the quota to not be met

Yeah, I believe that 50/50 will be extended beyond the freeze.

shampon

Heres an interesting idea.
http://www.u.tv/News/Police-recruits-should-work-for-free/d84b14cd-7bc4-4b90-bb44-7b2fe9b6bb06
:rolleyes:

From above article:

It's unfair and will disadvantage anyone with caring responsibilities, anyone already in work, and anyone who can't afford to work unpaid for a year or more.

Who the actual f**k can afford to work unpaid for a year????? I could manage a month, if I deprived myself of basically everything, at a stretch!
That article angers me :mad: I've always been a fan of introducing pre-recruitment qualifications (to a small extent that is, not full blown uni degrees) but some of the ideas thrown up in that article are ridiculous. Given the choice I would probably prefer the PCSO option, but while it may work to an extent over the water, here I believe it would be a complete disaster...

I would imagine 50/50 will be extended again. You would think that given this was supposed to be the last campaign for it, when recruitment kicks off again they would finish this campaign off under the same 50/50 terms and be done with it. However I can't see this being the case. No doubt by the time recruitment starts again the RC representation will have dropped again, and the numbers going through from this campaign won't be enough to make it up anymore. Political crap madness then ensues, and alas 50/50 will be extended once again :rolleyes:
Personally, I can't see it ever going away permenantly. Once it ends, if the RC numbers applying continue with the trend that there has been in the past, representation will dwindle down once again...politics, yada yada etc etc, 50/50 will be back!

Delancey

I have always thought that even reaching 30% target is not the end - what happens if the RC representation dips below that magic figure ?

shampon

Deleted User wrote: »

From above article:


Who the actual f**k can afford to work unpaid for a year????? I could manage a month, if I deprived myself of basically everything, at a stretch!
That article angers me :mad: I've always been a fan of introducing pre-recruitment qualifications (to a small extent that is, not full blown uni degrees) but some of the ideas thrown up in that article are ridiculous. Given the choice I would probably prefer the PCSO option, but while it may work to an extent over the water, here I believe it would be a complete disaster...

I would imagine 50/50 will be extended again. You would think that given this was supposed to be the last campaign for it, when recruitment kicks off again they would finish this campaign off under the same 50/50 terms and be done with it. However I can't see this being the case. No doubt by the time recruitment starts again the RC representation will have dropped again, and the numbers going through from this campaign won't be enough to make it up anymore. Political crap madness then ensues, and alas 50/50 will be extended once again :rolleyes:
Personally, I can't see it ever going away permenantly. Once it ends, if the RC numbers applying continue with the trend that there has been in the past, representation will dwindle down once again...politics, yada yada etc etc, 50/50 will be back!

4

I once worked for a well known hotel, highly successful, VIP Clients etc. Cut along story short, we the staff, because of managements idiocies with money had to pay for everything...and I Mean EVERYTHING....and the hotel was and still is creaming money hand over fist...

cesc77

Shampon,what has that got to do with anything?

Blaze90

Surely the Patten Report ends in March and there would be no jurisdiction for positive discrimination to continue? Sorry if I am completely off the mark here.

cesc77

50/50 will continue after the thaw,Not my opinion.It has to

Delancey

Blaze90 wrote: »

Surely the Patten Report ends in March and there would be no jurisdiction for positive discrimination to continue? Sorry if I am completely off the mark here.

The end of 50/50 provision as per Patten is predicated on the RC representation target of 30% being reached - this has not happened so the $ 64,000 question is '' what now ? ''. My own guess is 50/50 will make a return but perhaps in another guise.
As you say Blaze , the jurisdiction or legislation for this will have to come from somewhere.....

slunk2

I definately agree it has to come back and something needs to be put in place because numbers will drop through natural wastage! I dont think it can be a fair police service if there isn't a fair representation of all sides of the community .. or am I wrong in that opinion?

Delancey

I don't think any opinion on 50/50 is right or wrong !! It is a controversial policy that was introduced by politicians and on this forum we tend to avoid ' debate ' on it - pointless as it is something completely beyond our control.
I agree that some form of ' positive discrimination ' could well be a feature of recruitment in the years ahead ( that is when they start recruiting :rolleyes: ).

Gee-22

slunk2 wrote: »

I definately agree it has to come back and something needs to be put in place because numbers will drop through natural wastage! I dont think it can be a fair police service if there isn't a fair representation of all sides of the community .. or am I wrong in that opinion?

Its easy to sit there and say that when it assists your application.

Best man or women should get the job. End of story.

wanadrum

"I definately agree it has to come back and something needs to be put in place because numbers will drop through natural wastage! I dont think it can be a fair police service if there isn't a fair representation of all sides of the community .. or am I wrong in that opinion? "

Can you please explain that to me? In my opinion, the only thing that needs to be fair is the oportunity to join the PSNI. The selection process should only allow people through if they have a fair and decent attitude. Do you seriously think that if their isn't a representative number of individuals in the police that the service is less fair in practice?
I don't. If I got in, and I'm sure the same applies to the vast majority of applicants, I would treat all of the people of Northern Irelend fairly - my religion is absolutely irrelevant.

I'm quite sick of percieved religion being used as the reason for or the solution to the problems we have in NI.

My opinion is that if we really have to discriminate simply to make up the numbers, that the ratio be reduced so that at least of appointments are 30% catholic.

I'd be interested to see the figures on all of the public sector and see if people would support 50:50 recruitment in all roles.

Delancey

delancey42 wrote: »

BTW folks not looking for a debate on the fairness or otherwise of 50/50 recruitment.

Folks , You will note that when I started this thread I did ask that it not become a debate on the rights and wrongs , fairness/unfairness , etc of the policy of 50/50 recruitment.

As I have already mentioned this policy was implemented by politicians and there is zero that we or indeed any serving officer can do about it. Even the Chief Constable cannot change it.

Moderator hat on - Debates about 50/50 are best held in the politics forum as it was a political decision to introduce it.
I am all too aware that over the next few days there will be people here feeling low and dissappointed with the sending out of Dear John letters and I would ask that everyone keep this in mind.
Discussion of 50/50 is of course allowed but in the context of it's impact on applicants and their chances to gain appointment.
Debate is for the Politics forum.

Should anyone wish to post in the Politics Forum please read that Forum's charter first.

Greasy

http://www.psni.police.uk/police_recruitment.pdf

Delancey

Thanks for that link Greasy - very interesting to note the denial of a freeze being in place , kinda begs the question when is a freeze not a freeze ?

"There is no ‘recruitment freeze’ currently in place, though requirement post-March 2011 will be determined by affordability and need."

Hmm..very interesting indeed!
Is there a date anywhere to say when this is from? I'm assuming since the recruitment freeze was mentioned at all means it's from after that announcement, but that to me says what I sort of suspected from the beginning...that the freeze is more about future campaigns and not this current one.

anay75

Very interesting link indeed!! It's good to see how many applicants there were too

Gee-22

It seems that the freeze means, in March, they will be taking stock of the numbers of new recruits and affordability.

Where as before the freeze announcement, the numbers were set in stone.

Im guessing there will be a few intakes before crimbo and maybe pre-March in 2011.

Ps- dont forget the PSNI has invested a lot of money on the new training centre, and they will want to make use of that investment. I believe the numbers of new recruits will stay the same after March, and for some years.

gazzabelfast

the new training centre wont just be for new recruits though will it?

Gee-22

gazzabelfast wrote: »

the new training centre wont just be for new recruits though will it?

Nope, but that's the main aimof the centre and the psni have invested something like 70 million in the project.

gazzabelfast

i was of the impression that they hadnt even dug the foundations yet

Delancey

Gee-22 wrote: »

Im guessing there will be a few intakes before crimbo and maybe pre-March in 2011.

Ps- dont forget the PSNI has invested a lot of money on the new training centre, and they will want to make use of that investment. I believe the numbers of new recruits will stay the same after March, and for some years.

I certainly hope that your theory is correct Gee. However it should be remembered that far and away the biggest cost in running the P.S.N.I. is the cost of people - expensive though items like Tangi Landrovers might be, their cost is small compared to that of employees - be they Police Officers or civilian.
I remember psni posted an example of how forgoing just 1 intake could save literally millions of pounds , in any organisation where people are its greatest cost and it's facing a big budget cut there can be little doubt the number of employees will be closely looked at.
Hopefully things will become a bit clearer in the next few weeks....

gazzabelfast

I got told its something like £50000 to get a person to day 1 of Garnerville...

Gee-22

gazzabelfast wrote: »

I got told its something like £50000 to get a person to day 1 of Garnerville...

50k seems a bit OTT.

heffomike54

Can anyone confirming if work has started on the new training center? I thought it was still in the planning stage, besides in my opinion if the PSNI put the this project on hold, it could result in massive savings.

In my opinion, Police recruitment should be a constant ongoing process, other wise every thirty years or so there will be a need for a massive recruitment drive.

Gee-22

heffomike54 wrote: »

Can anyone confirming if work has started on the new training center? I thought it was still in the planning stage, besides in my opinion if the PSNI put the this project on hold, it could result in massive savings.

In my opinion, Police recruitment should be a constant ongoing process, other wise every thirty years or so there will be a need for a massive recruitment drive.

£105m is needed by the PSNI and Prison Service for the provision of the Public Service Training College at Desertcreat.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/justice-budget-is-desperately-picked-over-as-cutbacks-loom-14931573.html

cesc77

heffomike54 wrote: »

Can anyone confirming if work has started on the new training center? I thought it was still in the planning stage, besides in my opinion if the PSNI put the this project on hold, it could result in massive savings.

In my opinion, Police recruitment should be a constant ongoing process, other wise every thirty years or so there will be a need for a massive recruitment drive.

Nice projection assessment there....where did you pull 30 years from?...

shampon

cesc77 wrote: »

Nice projection assessment there....where did you pull 30 years from?...

30 years is the typical amount of service, making huge shortfalls and rushed recruitment practices when the 30 year men/women go, Happens in nearly all public sector jobs in the south. They have too many for years then all of a sudden they have none...