Unpaid internships

What are your thoughts on these? I'm just finishing an MA and am appalled at how many entry level positions are unpaid internships. I just do not understand how anyone should be expected to work for free, beyond secondary school work experience type things. How can employers justify employing someone to do a job and not paying them for it?

A system like this only further widens the gap between rich and poor - only the well off can afford unpaid internships as their parents are able to pay rent and living costs for the duration. Most people don't have that luxury and are relying on income to pay the bills. It's incredibly unfair that some of my classmates are going into internships in top companies, funded by their parents, while the rest of us are doing any old job to get by while looking for rare paid positions. I'm sick of seeing job ads come through the college e-mail from employers who 'can't pay' the person they take on. If they can't pay, then they shouldn't be advertising the job. Imagine if I hired a cleaner to hoover my house and then told them I wasn't going to be paying them because I couldn't afford it, but they'd got some decent hoovering experience out of it. It's appalling. I'm 25 years old with an advanced degree and pretty good paid work experience, and I'm expected to work for free to get into my chosen field? I don't expect more than a basic wage to start with. But NOTHING? Am I meant to live in a cardboard box?

What do people think? Is anyone in favour of unpaid internships? Any employers who think they can justify hiring people for these positions?

TommyTheGun

[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]What are your thoughts on these? I'm just finishing an MA and am appalled at how many entry level positions are unpaid internships. I just do not understand how anyone should be expected to work for free, beyond secondary school work experience type things. How can employers justify employing someone to do a job and not paying them for it?

A system like this only further widens the gap between rich and poor - only the well off can afford unpaid internships as their parents are able to pay rent and living costs for the duration. Most people don't have that luxury and are relying on income to pay the bills. It's incredibly unfair that some of my classmates are going into internships in top companies, funded by their parents, while the rest of us are doing any old job to get by while looking for rare paid positions. I'm sick of seeing job ads come through the college e-mail from employers who 'can't pay' the person they take on. If they can't pay, then they shouldn't be advertising the job. Imagine if I hired a cleaner to hoover my house and then told them I wasn't going to be paying them because I couldn't afford it, but they'd got some decent hoovering experience out of it. It's appalling. I'm 25 years old with an advanced degree and pretty good paid work experience, and I'm expected to work for free to get into my chosen field? I don't expect more than a basic wage to start with. But NOTHING? Am I meant to live in a cardboard box?

What do people think? Is anyone in favour of unpaid internships? Any employers who think they can justify hiring people for these positions?[/QUOTE]

I am in the same boat. Just finished masters, working unpaid, like another guy here with me. Not even learning that much...yet(very busy, no time for others to mentor) and is costing me €100 pw to get here ( have had to buy a car, insure, tax, fuel, food with last of my savings). so needless to say, i am continuing to look for jobs, but will most likely have to end up in the UK unfortunately

only good thing is it looks better on the CV to have a job than be sitting around doing nothing and my employer is a very valued multinational within different industries

jonsnow

I thought the same thing. My parents are quite well off, and no way would they have paid for my post LC holiday for me to go and get drunk every night with their money. It's so typical of posh teenagers in Ireland that they feel like they deserve a holiday after finishing school. Giving grinds for a few years has turned me against spoiled middle class Irish teens forever. They seem to expect rewards for every last thing. Finished the LC? Here's a holiday. Passed first year exams with a 2:2? Here's money for a J1. Graduated from the college you didn't have to pay for, or work through? Here's a car. They're constantly being told they're wonderful for the most mediocre achievements and expect constant praise and rewards. One of my grinds students went into college to complain about having failed a 3000 word essay she started the night before it was due and plastered Facebook with updates about how unfair it all was. No concept of actually earning your grades or working for anything. How are these useless, lazy brats ever going to survive in a job? Their parents should be ashamed.

Why are you worrying about it!

Bucklesman

jonsnow wrote: »

[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]My parents are quite well off.

Why are you worrying about it![/QUOTE]


[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]and no way would they have paid for my post LC holiday for me to go and get drunk every night with their money. It's so typical of posh teenagers in Ireland that they feel like they deserve a holiday after finishing school. [/QUOTE]

.

MagicMarker

How long to internships typically last? And is there usually a permanent position waiting for you at the end of it?

murphym7

Many people who finish college can not get a job because they have no experience although they can't get experience without getting a job. Its the same old circle that has always been there. Although very much harder these days.

I would be looking at these unpaid internships as a fantastic oppurtunity to get some valuble experience - you will now have something to say in an interview. Yes you can look on negatively and demand payment, say its not fair etc... The simple fact is life is not fair and getting less fairer by the month. So take the oppurtunity and get some experience - just imagine you are still in full time study and live accordingly. Live at home with the parents if you can, try and get some part hours somewhere, work in a paying job full time for 6 months and save to have cash to get you through the internship. The point is to think of some way you can make it happen for you., no one is going to do it for you.

Nobody said life was going to be easy or fair and I'll be very honest with you isn't it better to have internships that don't pay than no internships at all?

Its not fair that people who's parents can support them will find it easier but as we don't live in a communist society that is what we have to live with. Go do the internship, get a good job and a successful career and make loads of cash - so when your kids are having the same issue in 25 years you can make it easier for them.

Eh, I don't think dragging posts from other threads is exactly sound but OK. My parents have always been reasonably well off but they don't have much spare cash at the moment for various reasons. And if they did, they still wouldn't be giving it to me, as Buckleman has pointed out, thanks to his non-selective reading of posts. They don't support me and haven't for years. I'm 25. So taking an internship isn't any more an option for me personally than someone with parents on the dole. And I don't think any 25 year old should have to rely on their parents, whether they can afford it or not.

The point is that unpaid internships are causing huge problems because they're effectively forcing the average person into whatever job that pays the rent, while very well off people can afford to do them. I feel that those who do work for free are greatly contributing to the problem by causing employers to undervalue their work - if the work needs doing, why can't someone be paid to do it? I think looking at unpaid internships as a way to get experience is a mistake. That might be true for a 16 year old trying to figure out what industry to go into, but it's not true for your average 20-something graduate with an industry-related degree, who likely already has work experience. You wouldn't expect to leave school at 16 and start working for free, so why is it any different for a graduate who has put even more time and money into their education?

The point is that a lot of us just CAN'T work for free, murphym7. My parents live in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs but manual labour or farm work, I have to pay rent to live elsewhere. Having the chance to live at home rent free at 25 to save money is another privilege many don't have for various reasons. I think your comments are a bit patronising to be honest, I'm 25, not 19. I've done my degree, I've done a professional qualification (MA Level), I have a CELTA certificate and 4 years full time work experience in several different countries. I'm hardly someone who expects to be handed everything on a plate. I've DONE my work experience, I've done my internships, I've done my summer jobs and my student jobs and my au pairing for free - why shouldn't I expect to be paid a salary now that I'm a qualified, reasonably experienced adult with rent/bills/transport/health care to pay?

No, I don't think it's better to have internships that don't pay, because I can't do them, so to me they don't exist, and while other people are doing them, employers have no incentive to actually pay people for their work. I'm not expecting to be able to go out and buy a Merc, I'm expecting to be able to support myself while I work rather than be much worse off than I'd be on the dole. This 'wonderful experience' isn't really much use to me if I'm sleeping on the street. If I'm getting up to work 9-5 every day, do I not deserve to be paid at least minimum wage for doing so? If not, why not? It's a job, I'm doing work like anyone else. You can't compare an internship intended for adults to a work experience placement for Sorcha, answering the phone at her dad's company in transition year.

I'm well aware that life isn't fair, but this is something which SHOULD be fair. There's just no reason at all to expect someone to do a job for free. There's no reason at all why a perfectly qualified and able adult can't take a job because they have nobody to support them while they do it. It's just wrong, IMO.

murphym7

I am sorry for coming across as patronising - it was not my intention. However I am a little confused as to why you are applying for entry level postitions if as you said you already have "4 years full time work experience" in different countries (not sure how you managed 4 years full time work and managed to get a degree and a masters).

If you have all this experience then entry level doesn't seem right to me and therefore you should not be worried about them. The simple fact is the job market has changed and employers can offer these upaid internships or not offer them. If nobody applied for these internships the employers are not going to turn around and start offering payed positions. Employers are offering these because they know that they will have many applications, they are offering these postitions because they can get extra labour for free. This isnt a a case of turning payed jobs into free one's - well not in most cases, obviously there may be a small minority who may abuse this - but in my experience not often.

It makes good business sense in an environment like we have now of reduced headcounts to offer these internships, the company gets some free labour and the graduate gets some experience. These internships are removed from headcounts - if they ever became included in headcount then they would stop.

I have my opinion and you have yours - don't think we will convince each other.

murphym7

murphym7 wrote: »

I am sorry for coming across as patronising - it was not my intention. However I am a little confused as to why you are applying for entry level postitions if as you said you already have "4 years full time work experience" in different countries (not sure how you managed 4 years full time work and managed to get a degree and a masters).

They're basically entry level/junior positions in my field, which is slightly different (but similar) to the field(s) I used to work in. You need a few special qualifications to work in them, which I have, but obviously I lack experience using them, so I cannot walk into a senior role. As I said though, I do already have work experience and lots of training/education in a similar field, so I also don't expect to have to do an unpaid internship to gain the experience I need. I don't think I'm being unrealistic in my expectations - I don't expect to walk into a 50K a year job. I am prepared to start at the bottom and answer phones/photocopy stuff for a while for as basic wage, but I'm NOT prepared to work for free.

As I already said, the employers advertising these jobs know that they're not recruiting 19 year olds. Minimum requirements are usually a good primary degree, a Masters degree and a few years of experience, so they're not going to get anyone younger than about 23 at the very least. This is my entire issue. It's not like I'm looking at jobs meant for teenagers living at home, I'm looking for suitable positions to gain experience in my field, and most opportunities are unpaid. As for the 4 years full time work, I started college at 17, left at 21 and have been working full time ever since with the exception of the last 8 months which I took to do my MA.

If you have all this experience then entry level doesn't seem right to me and therefore you should not be worried about them. The simple fact is the job market has changed and employers can offer these upaid internships or not offer them. If nobody applied for these internships the employers are not going to turn around and start offering payed positions. Employers are offering these because they know that they will have many applications, they are offering these postitions because they can get extra labour for free. This isnt a a case of turning payed jobs into free one's - well not in most cases, obviously there may be a small minority who may abuse this - but in my experience not often.

Yes, they can offer them, but it's taking advantage big time, to the extent that it should be illegal. It's illegal to hire a cleaner to work for free, so why is it any different for someone wanting to start work in a graduate position? It's presumably because they know that a significant amount of graduates are well off enough to work for free without worrying about the rent, and that's incredibly unfair. It cuts off the jobs for people who actually need to work. I can't comment on whether employers are creating new positions for interns, but I strongly suspect that they are former paid positions, and I know this is a fact in a few cases. Someone needs to proofread and do the 'boring stuff' the senior people don't do, who did this before people started working for free?

It makes good business sense in an environment like we have now of reduced headcounts to offer these internships, the company gets some free labour and the graduate gets some experience. These internships are removed from headcounts - if they ever became included in headcount then they would stop.

I have my opinion and you have yours - don't think we will convince each other.

It also makes good business sense to hire a destitute person from a Third World country to do your housework for free in return for a bed, and that's illegal, despite the fact they're being compensated better than the intern who has to pay rent. You could argue that that person is getting experience which will lead to better cleaning jobs, but they're still providing a valuable service to the employer, like the intern is.

My view is, if the job requires a BA, and MA and work experience, the employer has no business calling it an internship. It's a job. All types of industries require training periods - hairdressing, culinary arts, whatever - and they all pay the trainees. Just because the person is gaining experience doesn't mean they should work for nothing. Obviously it suits the employer not to pay, but that doesn't make it ethical.

_Kaiser_

My 2c on this...

I've seen a LOT of these type of positions lately (I've an IT background myself), and many of them want qualifications and experience before they go on to say that "this position is unpaid".

Like Izzy, I can't afford to work for nothing. I'm almost 35 and am renting a house, paying bills, car/fuel costs, loan etc (all of which isn't easy when you've been made redundant!). "Moving home" (as often suggested) isn't an option for me for a variety of reasons.

To expect me then to take up a full-time UNPAID job (when I already have 12 years IT experience) would be ridiculous, and is simply an underhanded way for an employer to fill the position by taking advantage of someone's misfortune and it's on the increase at the moment. In my situation, given that most IT jobs are in Dublin, I'd be out at least €100 per week in fuel/toll/parking and lunch costs.

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

Dilynnio

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

My 2c on this...

I've seen a LOT of these type of positions lately (I've an IT background myself), and many of them want qualifications and experience before they go on to say that "this position is unpaid".

Like Izzy, I can't afford to work for nothing. I'm almost 35 and am renting a house, paying bills, car/fuel costs, loan etc (all of which isn't easy when you've been made redundant!). "Moving home" (as often suggested) isn't an option for me for a variety of reasons.

To expect me then to take up a full-time UNPAID job (when I already have 12 years IT experience) would be ridiculous, and is simply an underhanded way for an employer to fill the position by taking advantage of someone's misfortune and it's on the increase at the moment. In my situation, given that most IT jobs are in Dublin, I'd be out at least €100 per week in fuel/toll/parking and lunch costs.

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

I have to agree with you here.

It is exploitation......the recession is just an excuse.....people need money to live......just because you have no experience does not mean a person is clueless about what they have to do.......a person works very hard in college etc to get into a position to go on to work in their chosen field......why should they be exploited by the greed of others to work for free??

They have earned a wage through their studies and by getting a qualification.

Stick your two fingers up at them........this country makes me sick the way they are cashing in on other peoples lives

muboop1

If you can live at home do, if not save up or alternatively, get a loan. You as you admitted have no experience using these qualifications or whatever.

So... maybe you should treat it as college. They don't pay you for college because you are learning etc, and in exchange for this experience you do some extra work for them. Well, this internship is giving you the experience with these qualifications to allow you to get a better job with them or with someone else later!

People say the same in college, like it or not but thats the current economy, if you don;t like it, well tuff. That or stick in the area you are already experienced in and earn cash.

The simple fact is, this experience may allow you to walk into those 50K a year jobs later on. It's an investment.

And bare in mind, they do not care what age you are. Because you chose to work for 4 years rather then go straight into this job, and you feel at 25 now you cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy... thats not their problem. They will simply find a nice 21/22 year old who will do it!

muboop1

muboop1 wrote: »

If you can live at home do, if not save up or alternatively, get a loan. You as you admitted have no experience using these qualifications or whatever.

I do have experience, just not loads of full time experience in this field. The MA I just finished was a professional qualification where we did a lot of practical work, and I've been doing freelance work in the field for the last couple of years. I can't live at home, and I can't really get a loan - I already owe over 16 grand in student loans from my undergrad.

So... maybe you should treat it as college. They don't pay you for college because you are learning etc, and in exchange for this experience you do some extra work for them. Well, this internship is giving you the experience with these qualifications to allow you to get a better job with them or with someone else later!

But it's NOT college. That's what college is for. I just spent a year being broke so that I could get this qualification which would allow me to work full time in the field - why should I be expected to work for free now? In college, they are teaching me, I'm not any use for them, but in a job they need me, so why work for free?

People say the same in college, like it or not but thats the current economy, if you don;t like it, well tuff. That or stick in the area you are already experienced in and earn cash.

I don't think that's a million miles away from slavery, to be honest. If I don't like it, tough? Why? Why is someone allowed to hire me for a job and not pay me? Just because they can? It's alright to exploit people because you can? Is this not a violation of human rights? This is not a whole new area to me, it's more or less what I've been gearing up to do since I was 17. I just needed a bit more education and practical knowledge, which I now have. If I want cash, I have to take a job doing something I don't want a career in just do I can pay the rent, so my field is essentially closed off to me because I don't have a rich dad/husband bankrolling me.

The simple fact is, this experience may allow you to walk into those 50K a year jobs later on. It's an investment.

But 1) I CAN'T AFFORD TO DO IT. That's the entire point. It doesn't matter how valuable the experience is if I can't survive while I do it. And 2) All jobs provide experience, all of them, so should we all be expected to work for free, because it'll pay off later? My cousin is training to be a hairdresser. She gets paid for her work. The salon owners don't expect her to work for free even though what she's learning now might help her to open her own salon in ten years. She's learning, but she's also providing a service for them. She did her unpaid experience during hairdressing college. So why is it different for graduate jobs?

And bare in mind, they do not care what age you are. Because you chose to work for 4 years rather then go straight into this job, and you feel at 25 now you cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy... thats not their problem. They will simply find a nice 21/22 year old who will do it!

Did you miss the part where I said they want experience and an advanced degree? As murphym7 pointed out, 25 is young to have two degrees and a few years of experience, there's no way a 21 year old finishing their undergrad would be qualified enough. So the only people who can take these positions are 25-30 year olds who are almost always being supported by their parents. This is a system where only the richest and most privileged can acquire the experience and connections, because the majority of people just need to work and earn money. It's not that I 'feel' that I cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy, it's simply not an option, and it isn't an option to a lot of people. Most people, I'd say.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

I agree. I don't see how it's legal to do otherwise. Sure, pay a basic/minimum wage if you have to, but NOTHING?

gollem_1975

unfortunately the playing pitch has never been level and you have to deal the cards you are dealt.

in a recession things are even tougher for employers/businesses and prospective employees alike.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

unfortunately the playing pitch has never been level and you have to deal the cards you are dealt.

in a recession things are even tougher for employers/businesses and prospective employees alike.

Indeed it's tough but does that justify exploitation? This is really an ethical thing, no? If the people who didn't 'need' to work stopped accepting unpaid internships, employers would pay for good candidates to do the work. Working for free ultimately benefits nobody but the employer, surely? On a large scale it causes qualifications and experience to be devalued, and even for the privileged ones who can afford to do it, they surely still deserve to be paid for doing a job.

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66874430]
But it's NOT college. That's what college is for. I just spent a year being broke so that I could get this qualification which would allow me to work full time in the field - why should I be expected to work for free now? In college, they are teaching me, I'm not any use for them, but in a job they need me, so why work for free?
[/QUOTE]

people need to start viewing college more realistically from now on. there are shed loads of masters on offer from every 3rd level in the country. there is no guarantee of jobs at the end of these courses

I'm speaking from experience here. I have many years work experience also and a masters. eventually I took a WPP job ( which I wouldn't have got solely based on my masters ) and i'm glad I did ( to be back in work and learning stuff ).

in the jobs market at the moment relevant experience trumps a recent masters and no job experience.

perhaps you are right in that its not fair and there is a catch 22 where you can't afford to take an unpaid job to get experience -> can't get a job with experience ( but look on the positive side - at least you have experience )

why not chance your arm so to speak with these employers. tell them you want the job , you're worth it , tell them what you can do for them.. all that good stuff.. they might pay you if they think you will bring in more money than it costs to hire you ( thats the bottom line ). alternatively you could market your services directly to customers and get them to pay for it.

if you can't do this then you are back to working at whatever you can to pay the bills.

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66874642]Indeed it's tough but does that justify exploitation? This is really an ethical thing, no? If the people who didn't 'need' to work stopped accepting unpaid internships, employers would pay for good candidates to do the work. Working for free ultimately benefits nobody but the employer, surely? On a large scale it causes qualifications and experience to be devalued, and even for the privileged ones who can afford to do it, they surely still deserve to be paid for doing a job.[/QUOTE]

business in a recession is dog eat dog.

worrying about the ethics won't get you a job.

socio

Yea same here, it's infuriating to study for years and then either work for zilch or apply for same jobs as people without even a LC. Unfortunately I think unpaid is the way to go if you can afford it even for a few months. At least you get the experience...and then head to the airport with the rest of us.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

people need to start viewing college more realistically from now on. there are shed loads of masters on offer from every 3rd level in the country. there is no guarantee of jobs at the end of these courses

The sad thing is, I AM realistic and always have been. I had people telling me all through college that I'd walk into a well paid job because I did well, went to a reputable university and I speak several languages fluently. I always took that with a grain of salt and I was always perfectly happy to start off in entry level jobs for basic pay. I just never thought that after 5 years of college, several paid internships and full time work, I'd be expected to work for nothing.

I'm speaking from experience here. I have many years work experience also and a masters. eventually I took a WPP job ( which I wouldn't have got solely based on my masters ) and i'm glad I did ( to be back in work and learning stuff ).

in the jobs market at the moment relevant experience trumps a recent masters and no job experience.

perhaps you are right in that its not fair and there is a catch 22 where you can't afford to take an unpaid job to get experience -> can't get a job with experience ( but look on the positive side - at least you have experience )

It is a vicious circle. I need experience but I can't work for free to get it. It's hard to see a way out of that right now.

why not chance your arm so to speak with these employers. tell them you want the job , you're worth it , tell them what you can do for them.. all that good stuff.. they might pay you if they think you will bring in more money than it costs to hire you ( thats the bottom line ). alternatively you could market your services directly to customers and get them to pay for it.

I have tried this because I certainly can't work for free. I've had responses along the lines of, we'd love to hire you, but we can't afford to pay you, sorry. They'd rather take a worse candidate who won't cost them anything. I've freelanced before and am considering doing so again, as I can work directly with clients and set my own rules and all that, but it's very unstable and it'd be hard to get a new lease for an apartment or anything like that with pure freelance.

if you can't do this then you are back to working at whatever you can to pay the bills.

Well, that's it. I'm just bloody annoyed about it because I don't think I'm asking too much to be paid for working. I'm flexible - if accommodation/food was offered as part of the package, like it was with my old summer internships, then I could scrimp and save for the rest. But I need something to work with, I can't live on fresh air, and you're ineligible for the dole if you intern.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

business in a recession is dog eat dog.

worrying about the ethics won't get you a job.

So who would do these jobs if everyone refused to work without pay? I think this stuff ultimately comes back to bite everyone in the ass. People working for free = lack of respect for profession = lower salaries for everyone. Not paying employees means that you're not getting the best candidates, you're getting those who can afford to pay to work, surely not a good idea in the long run?

28064212

Here's the problem with wanting internships to be paid a proper wage: You're not going to get that position. There's 450,000 people out of work in the country, and many of them are better qualified and have more experience than you. They'll take a minimum wage job if they have to.

Internships aren't about the company saving money, they're about the applicant making themselves as attractive as possible to the company. Why should a company hire you if they can get someone for the same wage that won't need nearly as much training?

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875237]Well, that's it. I'm just bloody annoyed about it because I don't think I'm asking too much to be paid for working. I'm flexible - if accommodation/food was offered as part of the package, like it was with my old summer internships, then I could scrimp and save for the rest. But I need something to work with, I can't live on fresh air, and you're ineligible for the dole if you intern. [/QUOTE]
Look at the Fás WPP program - http://www.fas.ie/en/WPP/Participants.htm

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66875237]

So who would do these jobs if everyone refused to work without pay? I think this stuff ultimately comes back to bite everyone in the ass. People working for free = lack of respect for profession = lower salaries for everyone. Not paying employees means that you're not getting the best candidates, you're getting those who can afford to pay to work, surely not a good idea in the long run?[/QUOTE]

you can't discount the fact that the labour market is extremely difficult at the moment.

at the moment i think if there was a prospect of being able to get a paying job in the future as a result of having relevant experience then there will always be someone willing to do the job for little or no money to get the edge on the competition

look at trainee accountants/barristers doing deviling/all kinds of apprenticeships ( hairdressing/electrician etc.)

the above ,compete with thousands of others doing exams to get into the civil service or unemployment was the status quo for many in Ireland up until "the celtic tiger"..

ps: as another poster mentioned the WPP scheme could be worth looking in to as you would be able to keep your JSB while you do your internship.

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

Here's the problem with wanting internships to be paid a proper wage: You're not going to get that position. There's 450,000 people out of work in the country, and many of them are better qualified and have more experience than you. They'll take a minimum wage job if they have to.

Internships aren't about the company saving money, they're about the applicant making themselves as attractive as possible to the company. Why should a company hire you if they can get someone for the same wage that won't need nearly as much training?

I didn't say I wanted a proper wage, a fair wage which reflects my years of study and hard work. I said a wage. I said multiple times that I would be willing to take a minimum wage job, because minimum wage will at least put a roof over my head and cover my Aldi and Lidl bills. Nobody going for these internships is better qualified than me, they're simply saving the company money by not needing a salary.

28064212 wrote: »

Look at the Fás WPP program - http://www.fas.ie/en/WPP/Participants.htm

I live in the UK, not Ireland.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

you can't discount the fact that the labour market is extremely difficult at the moment.

at the moment i think if there was a prospect of being able to get a paying job in the future as a result of having relevant experience then there will always be someone willing to do the job for little or no money to get the edge on the competition

I know it's difficult. I just don't think that's any excuse for exploitation. Would you be appalled if your next door neighbour hired an African refugee to do up his house for no pay so that they could get experience in construction? And if the same man hired a graduate to work in his office answering the phone for no pay so the graduate could get experience in that industry? Is there a real difference?

look at trainee accountants/barristers doing deviling/all kinds of apprenticeships ( hairdressing/electrician etc.)

But they get paid.

the above ,compete with thousands of others doing exams to get into the civil service or unemployment was the status quo for many in Ireland up until "the celtic tiger"..

ps: as another poster mentioned the WPP scheme could be worth looking in to as you would be able to keep your JSB while you do your internship.

I don't think working for free was ever the norm, though. You got a job or you didn't get a job, but I don't think anyone from my parents' generation was expected to do a 40 year week in a suit for absolutely nothing. Am I mistaken?

I'd agree with this article:

When I was a college student, a summer internship at a big-city newspaper seemed just the thing to boost my nascent journalism career. But instead, I spent the summers as a big-city doorman, filling in for the regulars while they were on vacation. The reason was simple: Being a doorman paid a lot more, and I needed the money for tuition.

The reality is that unpaid internships are a great way of giving the children of affluence a leg up in life. If they really do help young people get permanent jobs in desirable fields, then the current internship system has the effect, however unintended, of reserving this advantage mainly for well-to-do families — families that happen to be disproportionately white. (Unpaid internships are No.105 on blogger Christian Lander's hilarious list of "stuff white people like.")

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/15/opinion/la-oe-akst-internships-20100615

While I don't like the Stuff White People Like site (cos it's racist and I don't think it's a race problem per se, but a class problem), this bit made me laugh. And then cry.

In most of the world when a person works long hours without pay, it is referred to as “slavery” or “forced labor.” For white people this process is referred to as an internship and is considered an essential stage in white development.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/07/20/104-unpaid-internships/

Connavar

I have no problem with these internships in certain situations. For example, I know that once I complete my course(programming) I will not be qualified(doing well in my course but it the subject matter covered isn't enough to get me by in the working world)
However I think that if you have experience of around a year in the relevant field you should not be expected to work for free

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875787]I didn't say I wanted a proper wage, a fair wage which reflects my years of study and hard work. I said a wage. I said multiple times that I would be willing to take a minimum wage job, because minimum wage will at least put a roof over my head and cover my Aldi and Lidl bills. Nobody going for these internships is better qualified than me, they're simply saving the company money by not needing a salary[/QUOTE]
That's exactly my point. No-one better qualified is going for those internships because they're unpaid. If they were paid, there would be better qualified people applying.

By 'proper wage', I was referring to minimum wage or higher.

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

That's exactly my point. No-one better qualified is going for those internships because they're unpaid. If they were paid, there would be better qualified people applying.

By 'proper wage', I was referring to minimum wage or higher.

Well, of course. That's my point as well. They're not getting the best candidate, they're getting the best candidate who's in a position to work for free. That person could be the 21st strongest person in their class. The best person for the job is probably serving coffee at Starbucks because they need money from somewhere.

By saying 'proper wage' you're kind of implying that there's some remuneration. There isn't. Not even a token gesture. Even the ****tiest, most exploitative summer jobs I did as an undergrad offered pocket money as well as accommodation. Most of the companies offering internships aren't even willing to chip in for the £150 travel card I need to get there.

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]I know it's difficult. I just don't think that's any excuse for exploitation. Would you be appalled if your next door neighbour hired an African refugee to do up his house for no pay so that they could get experience in construction?[/quote]
What does an African refugee have to do with it? But to answer your question, if my neighbour hired someone with no experience to do up his house, I'd laugh at him. That's not an internship, there is no training or supervision there, that's an unqualified sole trader doing a nixer. My neighbour gets what he paid for, and when his newly constructed conservatory collapses after a light shower, I'll laugh even harder. He'll know next time to get someone who knows what he is doing.
[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]And if the same man hired a graduate to work in his office answering the phone for no pay so the graduate could get experience in that industry? Is there a real difference?[/QUOTE]
How is that experience in the industry? That's receptionist experience. Again, not an internship. Why would a graduate do that? They don't gain anything from it
[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]

In most of the world when a person works long hours without pay, it is referred to as “slavery” or “forced labor.” For white people this process is referred to as an internship and is considered an essential stage in white development.

[/QUOTE]
Those kind of ridiculous statements just derail a thread. First of all, there have been plenty of white slaves. Secondly, the vital ingredient missing for it to be slavery is 'forced'. It's an option. It suits some people, but if you don't want to do it, don't
[quote=[Deleted User];66876365]By saying 'proper wage' you're kind of implying that there's some remuneration. There isn't. Not even a token gesture. Even the ****tiest, most exploitative summer jobs I did as an undergrad offered pocket money as well as accommodation. Most of the companies offering internships aren't even willing to chip in for the £150 travel card I need to get there.[/QUOTE]
First of all, have you actually asked them if they'd be willing to cover travel expenses? Or are you just basing that on the fact it's not specifically mentioned in the advertisements?

Secondly, the ****ty summer jobs you mentioned have nothing going for them except remuneration. If they didn't offer money, no-one would take them. Internships give you the opportunity to learn the industry, further your skills and gain experience. Money is nice, but not necessarily the prime objective. You are essentially being paid in experience.

_Kaiser_

28064212 wrote: »

Internships give you the opportunity to learn the industry, further your skills and gain experience. Money is nice, but not necessarily the prime objective. You are essentially being paid in experience.

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this..

In a situation like you describe, you are for all intents and purposes treated like an employee - except you don't get paid!

You will be expected to turn up on time, carry out whatever duties are assigned to you (including probably the "donkey work" others don't want/won't do!) AND you're expected to do all this professionaly and without complaint, AND at your own expense (travel costs, lunch etc).

I'm sorry but "unpaid experience" is for students doing it as past of college work - not a graduate or experienced employee who has earned their qualifications/experience.. that's just exploitation, and while it's being dressed up as "work placement" or "internships" or whatever, it's still morally (and should be legally!) wrong!

jayteecork

I've always wondered about this.

When I hear about barristers and their "devilling" I can only assume that it was brought about to keep the working class out of the profession.

28064212

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this..

In a situation like you describe, you are for all intents and purposes treated like an employee - except you don't get paid!

You will be expected to turn up on time, carry out whatever duties are assigned to you (including probably the "donkey work" others don't want/won't do!) AND you're expected to do all this professionaly and without complaint, AND at your own expense (travel costs, lunch etc).

I'm sorry but "unpaid experience" is for students doing it as past of college work - not a graduate or experienced employee who has earned their qualifications/experience.. that's just exploitation, and while it's being dressed up as "work placement" or "internships" or whatever, it's still morally (and should be legally!) wrong!

So don't do it. I believe that the experience and skills I'm gaining are worth more than the minimum wage I could get in a menial job. If you make internships illegal, and force the minimum wage to be paid, a company will just give the job to one of the other thousand people out there who are better qualified and more experienced than me.

In the current economic climate there is zero demand for new graduates. There will always be demand for skilled and experienced workers, and there will always be demand for unskilled labour, but companies have no need for someone that has to trained up at the moment, they can get someone who is equally qualified and more experienced for the same price

_Kaiser_

28064212 wrote: »

So don't do it. I believe that the experience and skills I'm gaining are worth more than the minimum wage I could get in a menial job. If you make internships illegal, and force the minimum wage to be paid, a company will just give the job to one of the other thousand people out there who are better qualified and more experienced than me.

In the current economic climate there is zero demand for new graduates. There will always be demand for skilled and experienced workers, and there will always be demand for unskilled labour, but companies have no need for someone that has to trained up at the moment, they can get someone who is equally qualified and more experienced for the same price

I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying here...

Earlier on (above) I posted about these sort of unpaid full-time jobs now appearing in the IT market but it's clear that from the descriptions they aren't looking for fresh-faced college graduates, but for industry experienced/qualified professionals (like me! only NOT like me as, while I have a lot of industry and relevant experience, the requirements are usually a list as long as my arm, which merely underscores that it's not a "graduate position" at all!)

It's THIS exploitation that I'm referring to, and the fact that someone like yourself would happily apply for that not only allows the rest of us to be taken advantage of, but cheapens the whole qualifications and experience gained in the first place! (after all, why pay someone to do the job when there's plenty of people who'll do it for free!)

It's an employers market certainly, and everyone has to adjust - but there are an increasing number of employers simply taking advantage of people and it's THESE that I have an issue with.

28064212

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I don't think you're quite getting what I'm saying here...

Earlier on (above) I posted about these sort of unpaid full-time jobs now appearing in the IT market but it's clear that from the descriptions they aren't looking for fresh-faced college graduates, but for industry experienced/qualified professionals (like me! only NOT like me as, while I have a lot of industry and relevant experience, the requirements are usually a list as long as my arm, which merely underscores that it's not a "graduate position" at all!)

It's THIS exploitation that I'm referring to, and the fact that someone like yourself would happily apply for that not only allows the rest of us to be taken advantage of, but cheapens the whole qualifications and experience gained in the first place! (after all, why pay someone to do the job when there's plenty of people who'll do it for free!)

It's an employers market certainly, and everyone has to adjust - but there are an increasing number of employers simply taking advantage of people and it's THESE that I have an issue with.

And I specifically said that I was talking about new graduates with no experience. I would never apply for an unpaid internship if I was qualified and experienced. What would be the point? Where would the benefit to me be? If I have 5 years experience, what good is another 6 months? I'd be far better off getting an unskilled minimum wage job to tide me over.

Hank Scorpio

good discussion this.

im currently out on paid work experience after passing my exams.

this is my 3rd year on the course and my 2nd time going on work experience overall

people back in first year refused to work the summer for free, (this was just when the recession hit) Hence they failed the course and could not do second year, even though some of them had top marks.

its wasnt some selfious pride reason, it was the bare fact they wouldnt have been able to afford it. FFS at the employers, even to shell out 100 quid a week would be something to survive on.

On the other hand I know lads in 3rd year who DID go out and work for free. These lads were mostly mature students, i.e 30s+ and were desperate to get their degree at any cost, even if it did mean working 6 months for nothing.

Personally Id never work for free, especially now since I have solid experience but i can understand why more mature students would do it.

Also the amount of companies advertising "free" positions can sometimes be sickening, I think there were emails about these jobs every other day, maybe the companies couldnt afford to pay? TBH i think in alot of the cases there are companies taking advantage of students and well trained ones at that.

_Kaiser_

28064212 wrote: »

And I specifically said that I was talking about new graduates with no experience. I would never apply for an unpaid internship if I was qualified and experienced. What would be the point? Where would the benefit to me be? If I have 5 years experience, what good is another 6 months? I'd be far better off getting an unskilled minimum wage job to tide me over.

My point is that many of the jobs that previously would have required an employer to offer a competitive salary - and you're right, I'm not talking Network Admin roles here but even Helpdesk jobs have become harder to get than they used to be! - are now being advertised as "unpaid".

So, if they hire you for say that Helpdesk job and maybe after 6 months they decide to keep you on at whatever the minimum salary is (assuming you accept it), that's 6 months that you've worked for them for free and thus saved them having to pay someone to do the same job they would have had to pay for in the past!

(EDIT: And if you don't accept it, they simply go get another graduate who'll work for free)

gollem_1975

the jobs market has certainly changed in recent years.

there are lots of people now with masters and degrees of all types within the huge pool of surplus unemployed labour.

cash is king - you may expect to be paid a certain amount of money
on the otherhand the employer can not be sure that they will get the revenue to pay for your services.

internship/placement schemes means that the risk for the employer is reduced and the employee gets experience, increases knowledge, makes contacts etc.

if the employee increases his/her value to the labour market then they go and get another job.

interns/work placements are not "bonded labourers".

i have to agree with a previous poster someone with many years experience in a particular field is not going to apply for a job in their area of expertise ( thats if there are any jobs going at all.. they will go for another job that will pay the bills )

yes there are lots of unpaid internship and WPP jobs advertised publicly but anecdotal ( for what its worth ) estimates of the total jobs available - 80% of them at least are not advertised at all. they are got through your personal network , people you worked with before, family, friends etc.

28064212

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

So, if they hire you for say that Helpdesk job and maybe after 6 months they decide to keep you on at whatever the minimum salary is (assuming you accept it), that's 6 months that you've worked for them for free and thus saved them having to pay someone to do the same job they would have had to pay for in the past!

Except I would never have got the opportunity otherwise. They would have just hired a person with more experience that they wouldn't have had to provide training for. Or they would have hired nobody at all, so as not to deal with the issues and risks involved with employing somebody

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

What does an African refugee have to do with it? But to answer your question, if my neighbour hired someone with no experience to do up his house, I'd laugh at him. That's not an internship, there is no training or supervision there, that's an unqualified sole trader doing a nixer. My neighbour gets what he paid for, and when his newly constructed conservatory collapses after a light shower, I'll laugh even harder. He'll know next time to get someone who knows what he is doing.

I think you're mistaken as to what an internship entails. It's not like shadowing an employee, it's not having someone talk to you about the business all day long. 99% of the time, it's working in an entry level position in a company where everyone is too busy to supervise and talk to you.

How is that experience in the industry? That's receptionist experience. Again, not an internship. Why would a graduate do that? They don't gain anything from it

That's exactly the kind of thing employers are offering. Perhaps not only answering phones, but all that boring donkey work that nobody else wants to do. Do you honestly think the intern gets to have a 'day in the life of a company executive' or something? The experience you get is getting insight into how the business operates and the different jobs people do, basically. I'm aiming to work in a translation agency among other things, and all those internships involve basic admin work for which the lucky intern receives not a penny. Why not pay a basic admin wage?

Those kind of ridiculous statements just derail a thread. First of all, there have been plenty of white slaves. Secondly, the vital ingredient missing for it to be slavery is 'forced'. It's an option. It suits some people, but if you don't want to do it, don't

There is a degree of force there. You can see from the opinions on here 'if you don't like it, tough' and things like that. Nobody in their right mind is going to work for free if they have any *realistic* choice. It's hardly an option if NOT doing it ends your chances of getting into a proper profession.

First of all, have you actually asked them if they'd be willing to cover travel expenses? Or are you just basing that on the fact it's not specifically mentioned in the advertisements?

Yes, I have and the answer is no. They 'can't' cover them.

Secondly, the ****ty summer jobs you mentioned have nothing going for them except remuneration. If they didn't offer money, no-one would take them. Internships give you the opportunity to learn the industry, further your skills and gain experience. Money is nice, but not necessarily the prime objective. You are essentially being paid in experience.

You're wrong. The summer jobs I did were 100% towards getting into my chosen field, in my case, I got to use my languages all day long. The pay was a joke and nobody who just wanted to earn money would have done them. I'd have stayed at home and worked in McDonald's if I just needed cash. Obviously, I saw that spending time in another country was more valuable. Even then, as a student with little experience, I got my accommodation covered and pocket money. Now, 6 years later, I can't even get that? EVERY job offers experience. Every job. Why does that mean they can't pay you? Tell me, why are trainee hairdressers paid a salary even before they finish their training while I can't even get paid work AFTER the 5 years of college/internships/work experience?

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66879544]I think you're mistaken as to what an internship entails. It's not like shadowing an employee, it's not having someone talk to you about the business all day long. 99% of the time, it's working in an entry level position in a company where everyone is too busy to supervise and talk to you.

That's exactly the kind of thing employers are offering. Perhaps not only answering phones, but all that boring donkey work that nobody else wants to do. Do you honestly think the intern gets to have a 'day in the life of a company executive' or something?[/QUOTE]
I'm fairly sure I'm not mistaken, given that I'm currently on my third internship. In all of them, allowances are made purely because I have no experience. If they hired an experienced employee who made some of the mistakes and took as long at some of the tasks as I have, they'd be out on their ear. In all of them, at the very least, there was a manager that I could take questions to. Two have them had an excellent support structure that I could use. In all of them, I was provided with training for both common work practices and specific skill-sets. And the two that I finished gave me the opportunity to take up a permanent position with them.

If your internships aren't offering the ability to learn and grow, why are you doing them? They're pointless so, correct?
[quote=[Deleted User];66879544]The experience you get is getting insight into how the business operates and the different jobs people do, basically[/QUOTE]
Eh, that's fairly important stuff, and, depending on the industry, can take quite a while to pick up. It's also about practical application of the skills learned in college, whihc if you can't do, you're no use to the company.
[quote=[Deleted User];66879544]I'm aiming to work in a translation agency among other things, and all those internships involve basic admin work for which the lucky intern receives not a penny. Why not pay a basic admin wage?[/QUOTE]
For a start, if they did, it would likely go to someone more qualified than you. Also, a basic admin wage is €20,000+ a year, that's a lot for a business to justify, so they may not take on anyone in that case
[quote=[Deleted User];66879544]There is a degree of force there. You can see from the opinions on here 'if you don't like it, tough' and things like that. Nobody in their right mind is going to work for free if they have any *realistic* choice. It's hardly an option if NOT doing it ends your chances of getting into a proper profession. [/QUOTE]
You can try and wait it out for a paid position in your area, get a minimum wage job while you're waiting, you could go back to college, you could get further professional qualifications, you could do freelance work. There's loads of other options available apart from internships. They are just one possibility that may suit some people
[quote=[Deleted User];66879544]You're wrong. The summer jobs I did were 100% towards getting into my chosen field, in my case, I got to use my languages all day long. The pay was a joke and nobody who just wanted to earn money would have done them. I'd have stayed at home and worked in McDonald's if I just needed cash. Obviously, I saw that spending time in another country was more valuable. Even then, as a student with little experience, I got my accommodation covered and pocket money. Now, 6 years later, I can't even get that? EVERY job offers experience. Every job. Why does that mean they can't pay you? Tell me, why are trainee hairdressers paid a salary even before they finish their training while I can't even get paid work AFTER the 5 years of college/internships/work experience?[/QUOTE]Apologies, from your description it sounded like they were the equivalent of McDonald's jobs.

6 years ago, we weren't in an economic crisis. Companies could afford to spend money on trainees. Now they're cutting back everywhere they can, it's hardly surprising. And not EVERY job offers relevant experience.

_Kaiser_

I think the point Izzy is trying to make is that a lot of these unpaid "internships" may be theoretically about getting some relevant experience and such, but in reality are really just a way for an employer to fill a position they'd have to normally pay someone to do, and even then will generally involve doing donkey work that no one else wants to/will do, so ultimately you learn very little but work your ass off for free in the meantime!

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

I'm fairly sure I'm not mistaken, given that I'm currently on my third internship. In all of them, allowances are made purely because I have no experience. If they hired an experienced employee who made some of the mistakes and took as long at some of the tasks as I have, they'd be out on their ear. In all of them, at the very least, there was a manager that I could take questions to. Two have them had an excellent support structure that I could use. In all of them, I was provided with training for both common work practices and specific skill-sets. And the two that I finished gave me the opportunity to take up a permanent position with them.

If your internships aren't offering the ability to learn and grow, why are you doing them? They're pointless so, correct?

What field are you in? It would be rare to get something like that in mine. Why do them? Experience in the industry and networking, and because there really is no other way in. Are you being paid?

Eh, that's fairly important stuff, and, depending on the industry, can take quite a while to pick up. It's also about practical application of the skills learned in college, whihc if you can't do, you're no use to the company.

You were the one who said it was useless and 'receptionist experience'.

For a start, if they did, it would likely go to someone more qualified than you. Also, a basic admin wage is €20,000+ a year, that's a lot for a business to justify, so they may not take on anyone in that case

I'm pretty well qualified. 20K a year is a pittance in London - how many experienced, qualified people are going to work for that? It's really a graduate starting salary for people to get a foot in the door, except they know they can get people to do it for free so they won't pay it. If nobody did it for free, they'd have to pay. Someone has to do that work.

You can try and wait it out for a paid position in your area, get a minimum wage job while you're waiting, you could go back to college, you could get further professional qualifications, you could do freelance work. There's loads of other options available apart from internships. They are just one possibility that may suit some people
Apologies, from your description it sounded like they were the equivalent of McDonald's jobs.

I am doing all those, but undoubtedly, the internships are by far the best option. As for college, what use is that? Get into more debt so I can be in the same situation in a year? I'm already verging on overqualified for the sort of jobs I want. Too qualified for admin/basic but not enough experience for senior roles because I can't get the foot in the door.

6 years ago, we weren't in an economic crisis. Companies could afford to spend money on trainees. Now they're cutting back everywhere they can, it's hardly surprising. And not EVERY job offers relevant experience.

No, obviously not, but if you work in the field you studied, it will be relevant. You act like just because you're learning, it's absolutely fine not to expect payment. I did a paid summer internship in New York once, where I had to be trained from scratch because I'd never worked in that area, ever. They still paid me, because they knew that after the first week or so, they were getting far more from me than I was from them. And that's how I feel about all internships.

_Kaiser_

28064212 wrote: »

Also, a basic admin wage is €20,000+ a year, that's a lot for a business to justify, so they may not take on anyone in that case

If they can justify the need to take on an intern to do what is normally a full-time paid job, they should be required to pay that person accordingly.
I'm sure they would still have to cover liability costs too in either case.

6 years ago, we weren't in an economic crisis. Companies could afford to spend money on trainees. Now they're cutting back everywhere they can, it's hardly surprising.

True, but just as they are expecting you to work for them so they can make a profit, it's not unreasonable to be expected to be paid for that effort - it's not charity after all!

murphym7

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If they can justify the need to take on an intern to do what is normally a full-time paid job, they should be required to pay that person accordingly.
I'm sure they would still have to cover liability costs too in either case.


True, but just as they are expecting you to work for them so they can make a profit, it's not unreasonable to be expected to be paid for that effort - it's not charity after all!

If people think for a second that if everyone refused to apply for these internships,employers would suddenly turn these into full time paying jobs they are very very wrong. Firstly not all employers are taking advantage of interns - its a bit paranoid to believe that they are all taking advantage.

And yes there are also employers who are taking advantage - but the same argument applies to them -they are not going to turn around and start paying people if interns refuse to apply for the unpaid jobs. And before anyone says "the work still needs to get done" yes it does and it needs to be spread amoung the employes they have left -by having interns doing some of the donkey work results in other full time employees having the time to do the "nice to do" things. The projects that are nice to do but are always put on hold because of resources, with interns it free's up the time to work on the extra's -not just surviving.

I have worked and continue to work for some of the biggest companies in the world and believe it or not there are plenty of them who genuienly have an interest in young talent. In fact using internships is a great way of selecting possible candidates for future open postition's.

murphym7

murphym7 wrote: »

If people think for a second that if everyone refused to apply for these internships,employers would suddenly turn these into full time paying jobs they are very very wrong. Firstly not all employers are taking advantage of interns - its a bit paranoid to believe that they are all taking advantage.

Well, I think anyone who expects another human being to work for them for free is taking advantage. And I do think employers would turn the intern positions into paid positions if nobody would work for free. Perhaps not all of them, but a lot of them. And even if they weren't full time positions, it would be a hell of a lot more helpful if it was possible to just do a few hours, paid, a few afternoons a week or on a Saturday so that you could get experience while doing your full time job. How many people can afford to work 40 hours a week for nothing?

I have worked and continue to work for some of the biggest companies in the world and believe it or not there are plenty of them who genuienly have an interest in young talent. In fact using internships is a great way of selecting possible candidates for future open postition's.

I'm sure they do have an interest and I'm sure they're delighted that they can get well educated graduates to work for them for free. It's still wrong and elitist. How can a working class person or even a middle class person ever hope to get into these jobs if the companies won't pay?

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66883446]Well, I think anyone who expects another human being to work for them for free is taking advantage. And I do think employers would turn the intern positions into paid positions if nobody would work for free. Perhaps not all of them, but a lot of them. And even if they weren't full time positions, it would be a hell of a lot more helpful if it was possible to just do a few hours, paid, a few afternoons a week or on a Saturday so that you could get experience while doing your full time job. How many people can afford to work 40 hours a week for nothing?



I'm sure they do have an interest and I'm sure they're delighted that they can get well educated graduates to work for them for free. It's still wrong and elitist. How can a working class person or even a middle class person ever hope to get into these jobs if the companies won't pay?[/QUOTE]

put it this way you're not an employer so theres not a lot you can do about that side of the equation.

you can withhold your services from a prospective employer as is your wont.

however there will be someone else who will be in a position to take the unpaid placement.

the labour market may not always be like this. after all employers in the late 90's were giving 20k to people straight out of 1 year conversion courses without experience.

in 10 years time Irish students may need to travel abroad for unpaid internships who knows.

I think if you really want the work experience in this area that suits your newly gained qualifications bite the bullet ask your parents, rob a bank, whatever it takes to get that job.
If you prove your worth to your employer if they have any business acumen at all they will rob the bank to get you to stay ( but if you can keep doing the nixers ;-) )

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66880424]What field are you in? It would be rare to get something like that in mine. Why do them? Experience in the industry and networking, and because there really is no other way in. Are you being paid?[/quote]
I'm in IT, I can't speak for other industries, but any internships I know about have always provided relevant experience. I was paid minimum wage in the first 2 I did (both in pre-recession times) and am not being paid on the one I'm currently on.

[quote=[Deleted User];66880424]You were the one who said it was useless and 'receptionist experience'.[/quote]
No, I didn't. Learning how your industry works is not 'receptionist experience'. Doing nothing but answering a phone is receptionist experience. I went on to say "it's also about practical application of the skills learned in college".

[quote=[Deleted User];66880424]I'm pretty well qualified. 20K a year is a pittance in London - how many experienced, qualified people are going to work for that?[/quote]
In the current economic climate, experienced and qualified people would kill for 20K a year.

[quote=[Deleted User];66880424]I am doing all those, but undoubtedly, the internships are by far the best option. As for college, what use is that? Get into more debt so I can be in the same situation in a year? I'm already verging on overqualified for the sort of jobs I want. Too qualified for admin/basic but not enough experience for senior roles because I can't get the foot in the door.[/quote]
"internships are by far the best option" - so you admit that these internships would be a huge asset to you? That it's not purely about the money?

[quote=[Deleted User];66880424]No, obviously not, but if you work in the field you studied, it will be relevant. You act like just because you're learning, it's absolutely fine not to expect payment.[/QUOTE]
No, I believe that the experience and skills I'm gaining are more important than the money, and that nobody is offering me money with that experience and skills, so I make do with what I can

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

If they can justify the need to take on an intern to do what is normally a full-time paid job, they should be required to pay that person accordingly.
I'm sure they would still have to cover liability costs too in either case.

'Liability costs' - so taking on another employee is even more expensive than just their wage? How is that helping your argument? Once you bring in overheads associated with a new employee, expenses start piling up. And this is for someone who mightn't even be good at their job.

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

True, but just as they are expecting you to work for them so they can make a profit, it's not unreasonable to be expected to be paid for that effort - it's not charity after all!

This misconception that internships aren't paid is completely misleading. If there was no benefit to doing it, no-one would ever do one. There is no monetary payment, but you most definitely do gain from it. And you're right, it's not a charity. It's a business, trying to keep costs as low as possible

[quote=[Deleted User];66883446]Well, I think anyone who expects another human being to work for them for free is taking advantage. And I do think employers would turn the intern positions into paid positions if nobody would work for free. Perhaps not all of them, but a lot of them.[/quote]
A lot of them wouldn't. And - this is the important point - a lot more of them would just go and hire the experienced out of work people over the graduate. There is no demand for graduates with little to no experience when the labour market is as over-saturated as it is now

[quote=[Deleted User];66883446]I'm sure they do have an interest and I'm sure they're delighted that they can get well educated graduates to work for them for free. It's still wrong and elitist. How can a working class person or even a middle class person ever hope to get into these jobs if the companies won't pay?[/QUOTE]
How can a working-/middle-class person ever hope to go to college? How much money did you spend going to college for 3/4 years? That's a hell of a lot more expensive than spending 6-12 months on a work internship

teacher30

Hi
I know i'm not in the right place to ask, but this site is a nightmare to figure out!

My Polish friend is working here for summer, and seeing as he is a student, does he get tax back? And how might he go about it Any helpful advice would be appreciated.

QuiteInterestin

While unpaid internships can provide good experience for new graduates, I think alot of companies are jumping on the recession bandwagon and making out they can't afford to pay staff when they really can and knowing with the current climate they can get away with it.

The tide may be beginning to turn on these unpaid/voluntary positions though. I've heard recently of people going for jobs requiring 'paid experience' as employers were beginning to notice that those with unpaid experience had very little relevent experience to the job as they were being given the crappy jobs while on unpaid experience.

gollem_1975

QuiteInterestin wrote: »

While unpaid internships can provide good experience for new graduates, I think alot of companies are jumping on the recession bandwagon and making out they can't afford to pay staff when they really can and knowing with the current climate they can get away with it.

The tide may be beginning to turn on these unpaid/voluntary positions though. I've heard recently of people going for jobs requiring 'paid experience' as employers were beginning to notice that those with unpaid experience had very little relevent experience to the job as they were being given the crappy jobs while on unpaid experience.

jobs requiring "paid experience" ? are you referring to internships that are part of a college course ?

the tide will turn in some of the situations you refer to because companies will find out that in order to keep good staff they will have to pay them somewhere down the line.

Word will also get around about these companies if interns have a bad experience there (and boards.ie will be a good place for people to share their bad experiences )

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

I'm in IT, I can't speak for other industries, but any internships I know about have always provided relevant experience. I was paid minimum wage in the first 2 I did (both in pre-recession times) and am not being paid on the one I'm currently on.


No, I didn't. Learning how your industry works is not 'receptionist experience'. Doing nothing but answering a phone is receptionist experience. I went on to say "it's also about practical application of the skills learned in college".

Yes, but most of the internships I've seen don't involve using all the programs and skills we used in college. It is more basic work than that. It is the boring stuff nobody else wants to do.

In the current economic climate, experienced and qualified people would kill for 20K a year.

Not here. Perhaps in Ireland but not here. Not in this field, anyway.

"internships are by far the best option" - so you admit that these internships would be a huge asset to you? That it's not purely about the money?

Yes, by internship I mean a basic, entry level position where you might be doing boring tasks but learning a lot about the business. That's better than your other suggestions.

No, I believe that the experience and skills I'm gaining are more important than the money, and that nobody is offering me money with that experience and skills, so I make do with what I can

You're in a privileged position that you CAN work for free. That's my whole point. Someone who says experience and skills are more important than money clearly isn't going to be homeless or starve to death next month if they don't get a paycheque. I'm not a materialistic person, but I need to eat. So I need to make money. The fact that that unpaid internship might be great for my career is irrelevant.

This misconception that internships aren't paid is completely misleading. If there was no benefit to doing it, no-one would ever do one. There is no monetary payment, but you most definitely do gain from it. And you're right, it's not a charity. It's a business, trying to keep costs as low as possible

And as I said, they're still gaining more from you than you are from them unless you're completely useless.

A lot of them wouldn't. And - this is the important point - a lot more of them would just go and hire the experienced out of work people over the graduate. There is no demand for graduates with little to no experience when the labour market is as over-saturated as it is now

Not really. Employers still don't want overqualified people, either.

How can a working-/middle-class person ever hope to go to college? How much money did you spend going to college for 3/4 years? That's a hell of a lot more expensive than spending 6-12 months on a work internship

In the UK, every student is eligible for a student loan so anyone who wants to go to college goes to college. There's no such scheme for internships. And yes, college is a lot more expensive than an internship, but it's not like you can do an internship without a degree, so what's your point? The fact I spent almost 20 grand going to college means I really absolutely can't afford to take out more loans now. I wasn't providing a service to my lecturers in college, I would be providing a service for an employer so why shouldn't I get paid.

Connavar

[quote=[Deleted User];66887715]
And as I said, they're still gaining more from you than you are from them unless you're completely useless.
[/QUOTE]

Of course they are. There would be no sense in hiring interns if there wasn't some form of profit for the company. That is how business works, it's not charity. Also you have to remember that taking interns on is a risk to the company so this has to be covered