Unpaid internships

What are your thoughts on these? I'm just finishing an MA and am appalled at how many entry level positions are unpaid internships. I just do not understand how anyone should be expected to work for free, beyond secondary school work experience type things. How can employers justify employing someone to do a job and not paying them for it?

A system like this only further widens the gap between rich and poor - only the well off can afford unpaid internships as their parents are able to pay rent and living costs for the duration. Most people don't have that luxury and are relying on income to pay the bills. It's incredibly unfair that some of my classmates are going into internships in top companies, funded by their parents, while the rest of us are doing any old job to get by while looking for rare paid positions. I'm sick of seeing job ads come through the college e-mail from employers who 'can't pay' the person they take on. If they can't pay, then they shouldn't be advertising the job. Imagine if I hired a cleaner to hoover my house and then told them I wasn't going to be paying them because I couldn't afford it, but they'd got some decent hoovering experience out of it. It's appalling. I'm 25 years old with an advanced degree and pretty good paid work experience, and I'm expected to work for free to get into my chosen field? I don't expect more than a basic wage to start with. But NOTHING? Am I meant to live in a cardboard box?

What do people think? Is anyone in favour of unpaid internships? Any employers who think they can justify hiring people for these positions?

TommyTheGun

[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]What are your thoughts on these? I'm just finishing an MA and am appalled at how many entry level positions are unpaid internships. I just do not understand how anyone should be expected to work for free, beyond secondary school work experience type things. How can employers justify employing someone to do a job and not paying them for it?

A system like this only further widens the gap between rich and poor - only the well off can afford unpaid internships as their parents are able to pay rent and living costs for the duration. Most people don't have that luxury and are relying on income to pay the bills. It's incredibly unfair that some of my classmates are going into internships in top companies, funded by their parents, while the rest of us are doing any old job to get by while looking for rare paid positions. I'm sick of seeing job ads come through the college e-mail from employers who 'can't pay' the person they take on. If they can't pay, then they shouldn't be advertising the job. Imagine if I hired a cleaner to hoover my house and then told them I wasn't going to be paying them because I couldn't afford it, but they'd got some decent hoovering experience out of it. It's appalling. I'm 25 years old with an advanced degree and pretty good paid work experience, and I'm expected to work for free to get into my chosen field? I don't expect more than a basic wage to start with. But NOTHING? Am I meant to live in a cardboard box?

What do people think? Is anyone in favour of unpaid internships? Any employers who think they can justify hiring people for these positions?[/QUOTE]

I am in the same boat. Just finished masters, working unpaid, like another guy here with me. Not even learning that much...yet(very busy, no time for others to mentor) and is costing me €100 pw to get here ( have had to buy a car, insure, tax, fuel, food with last of my savings). so needless to say, i am continuing to look for jobs, but will most likely have to end up in the UK unfortunately

only good thing is it looks better on the CV to have a job than be sitting around doing nothing and my employer is a very valued multinational within different industries

jonsnow

I thought the same thing. My parents are quite well off, and no way would they have paid for my post LC holiday for me to go and get drunk every night with their money. It's so typical of posh teenagers in Ireland that they feel like they deserve a holiday after finishing school. Giving grinds for a few years has turned me against spoiled middle class Irish teens forever. They seem to expect rewards for every last thing. Finished the LC? Here's a holiday. Passed first year exams with a 2:2? Here's money for a J1. Graduated from the college you didn't have to pay for, or work through? Here's a car. They're constantly being told they're wonderful for the most mediocre achievements and expect constant praise and rewards. One of my grinds students went into college to complain about having failed a 3000 word essay she started the night before it was due and plastered Facebook with updates about how unfair it all was. No concept of actually earning your grades or working for anything. How are these useless, lazy brats ever going to survive in a job? Their parents should be ashamed.

Why are you worrying about it!

Bucklesman

jonsnow wrote: »

[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]My parents are quite well off.

Why are you worrying about it![/QUOTE]


[quote=[Deleted User];66743935]and no way would they have paid for my post LC holiday for me to go and get drunk every night with their money. It's so typical of posh teenagers in Ireland that they feel like they deserve a holiday after finishing school. [/QUOTE]

.

MagicMarker

How long to internships typically last? And is there usually a permanent position waiting for you at the end of it?

murphym7

Many people who finish college can not get a job because they have no experience although they can't get experience without getting a job. Its the same old circle that has always been there. Although very much harder these days.

I would be looking at these unpaid internships as a fantastic oppurtunity to get some valuble experience - you will now have something to say in an interview. Yes you can look on negatively and demand payment, say its not fair etc... The simple fact is life is not fair and getting less fairer by the month. So take the oppurtunity and get some experience - just imagine you are still in full time study and live accordingly. Live at home with the parents if you can, try and get some part hours somewhere, work in a paying job full time for 6 months and save to have cash to get you through the internship. The point is to think of some way you can make it happen for you., no one is going to do it for you.

Nobody said life was going to be easy or fair and I'll be very honest with you isn't it better to have internships that don't pay than no internships at all?

Its not fair that people who's parents can support them will find it easier but as we don't live in a communist society that is what we have to live with. Go do the internship, get a good job and a successful career and make loads of cash - so when your kids are having the same issue in 25 years you can make it easier for them.

Eh, I don't think dragging posts from other threads is exactly sound but OK. My parents have always been reasonably well off but they don't have much spare cash at the moment for various reasons. And if they did, they still wouldn't be giving it to me, as Buckleman has pointed out, thanks to his non-selective reading of posts. They don't support me and haven't for years. I'm 25. So taking an internship isn't any more an option for me personally than someone with parents on the dole. And I don't think any 25 year old should have to rely on their parents, whether they can afford it or not.

The point is that unpaid internships are causing huge problems because they're effectively forcing the average person into whatever job that pays the rent, while very well off people can afford to do them. I feel that those who do work for free are greatly contributing to the problem by causing employers to undervalue their work - if the work needs doing, why can't someone be paid to do it? I think looking at unpaid internships as a way to get experience is a mistake. That might be true for a 16 year old trying to figure out what industry to go into, but it's not true for your average 20-something graduate with an industry-related degree, who likely already has work experience. You wouldn't expect to leave school at 16 and start working for free, so why is it any different for a graduate who has put even more time and money into their education?

The point is that a lot of us just CAN'T work for free, murphym7. My parents live in the middle of nowhere where there are no jobs but manual labour or farm work, I have to pay rent to live elsewhere. Having the chance to live at home rent free at 25 to save money is another privilege many don't have for various reasons. I think your comments are a bit patronising to be honest, I'm 25, not 19. I've done my degree, I've done a professional qualification (MA Level), I have a CELTA certificate and 4 years full time work experience in several different countries. I'm hardly someone who expects to be handed everything on a plate. I've DONE my work experience, I've done my internships, I've done my summer jobs and my student jobs and my au pairing for free - why shouldn't I expect to be paid a salary now that I'm a qualified, reasonably experienced adult with rent/bills/transport/health care to pay?

No, I don't think it's better to have internships that don't pay, because I can't do them, so to me they don't exist, and while other people are doing them, employers have no incentive to actually pay people for their work. I'm not expecting to be able to go out and buy a Merc, I'm expecting to be able to support myself while I work rather than be much worse off than I'd be on the dole. This 'wonderful experience' isn't really much use to me if I'm sleeping on the street. If I'm getting up to work 9-5 every day, do I not deserve to be paid at least minimum wage for doing so? If not, why not? It's a job, I'm doing work like anyone else. You can't compare an internship intended for adults to a work experience placement for Sorcha, answering the phone at her dad's company in transition year.

I'm well aware that life isn't fair, but this is something which SHOULD be fair. There's just no reason at all to expect someone to do a job for free. There's no reason at all why a perfectly qualified and able adult can't take a job because they have nobody to support them while they do it. It's just wrong, IMO.

murphym7

I am sorry for coming across as patronising - it was not my intention. However I am a little confused as to why you are applying for entry level postitions if as you said you already have "4 years full time work experience" in different countries (not sure how you managed 4 years full time work and managed to get a degree and a masters).

If you have all this experience then entry level doesn't seem right to me and therefore you should not be worried about them. The simple fact is the job market has changed and employers can offer these upaid internships or not offer them. If nobody applied for these internships the employers are not going to turn around and start offering payed positions. Employers are offering these because they know that they will have many applications, they are offering these postitions because they can get extra labour for free. This isnt a a case of turning payed jobs into free one's - well not in most cases, obviously there may be a small minority who may abuse this - but in my experience not often.

It makes good business sense in an environment like we have now of reduced headcounts to offer these internships, the company gets some free labour and the graduate gets some experience. These internships are removed from headcounts - if they ever became included in headcount then they would stop.

I have my opinion and you have yours - don't think we will convince each other.

murphym7

murphym7 wrote: »

I am sorry for coming across as patronising - it was not my intention. However I am a little confused as to why you are applying for entry level postitions if as you said you already have "4 years full time work experience" in different countries (not sure how you managed 4 years full time work and managed to get a degree and a masters).

They're basically entry level/junior positions in my field, which is slightly different (but similar) to the field(s) I used to work in. You need a few special qualifications to work in them, which I have, but obviously I lack experience using them, so I cannot walk into a senior role. As I said though, I do already have work experience and lots of training/education in a similar field, so I also don't expect to have to do an unpaid internship to gain the experience I need. I don't think I'm being unrealistic in my expectations - I don't expect to walk into a 50K a year job. I am prepared to start at the bottom and answer phones/photocopy stuff for a while for as basic wage, but I'm NOT prepared to work for free.

As I already said, the employers advertising these jobs know that they're not recruiting 19 year olds. Minimum requirements are usually a good primary degree, a Masters degree and a few years of experience, so they're not going to get anyone younger than about 23 at the very least. This is my entire issue. It's not like I'm looking at jobs meant for teenagers living at home, I'm looking for suitable positions to gain experience in my field, and most opportunities are unpaid. As for the 4 years full time work, I started college at 17, left at 21 and have been working full time ever since with the exception of the last 8 months which I took to do my MA.

If you have all this experience then entry level doesn't seem right to me and therefore you should not be worried about them. The simple fact is the job market has changed and employers can offer these upaid internships or not offer them. If nobody applied for these internships the employers are not going to turn around and start offering payed positions. Employers are offering these because they know that they will have many applications, they are offering these postitions because they can get extra labour for free. This isnt a a case of turning payed jobs into free one's - well not in most cases, obviously there may be a small minority who may abuse this - but in my experience not often.

Yes, they can offer them, but it's taking advantage big time, to the extent that it should be illegal. It's illegal to hire a cleaner to work for free, so why is it any different for someone wanting to start work in a graduate position? It's presumably because they know that a significant amount of graduates are well off enough to work for free without worrying about the rent, and that's incredibly unfair. It cuts off the jobs for people who actually need to work. I can't comment on whether employers are creating new positions for interns, but I strongly suspect that they are former paid positions, and I know this is a fact in a few cases. Someone needs to proofread and do the 'boring stuff' the senior people don't do, who did this before people started working for free?

It makes good business sense in an environment like we have now of reduced headcounts to offer these internships, the company gets some free labour and the graduate gets some experience. These internships are removed from headcounts - if they ever became included in headcount then they would stop.

I have my opinion and you have yours - don't think we will convince each other.

It also makes good business sense to hire a destitute person from a Third World country to do your housework for free in return for a bed, and that's illegal, despite the fact they're being compensated better than the intern who has to pay rent. You could argue that that person is getting experience which will lead to better cleaning jobs, but they're still providing a valuable service to the employer, like the intern is.

My view is, if the job requires a BA, and MA and work experience, the employer has no business calling it an internship. It's a job. All types of industries require training periods - hairdressing, culinary arts, whatever - and they all pay the trainees. Just because the person is gaining experience doesn't mean they should work for nothing. Obviously it suits the employer not to pay, but that doesn't make it ethical.

_Kaiser_

My 2c on this...

I've seen a LOT of these type of positions lately (I've an IT background myself), and many of them want qualifications and experience before they go on to say that "this position is unpaid".

Like Izzy, I can't afford to work for nothing. I'm almost 35 and am renting a house, paying bills, car/fuel costs, loan etc (all of which isn't easy when you've been made redundant!). "Moving home" (as often suggested) isn't an option for me for a variety of reasons.

To expect me then to take up a full-time UNPAID job (when I already have 12 years IT experience) would be ridiculous, and is simply an underhanded way for an employer to fill the position by taking advantage of someone's misfortune and it's on the increase at the moment. In my situation, given that most IT jobs are in Dublin, I'd be out at least €100 per week in fuel/toll/parking and lunch costs.

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

Dilynnio

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

My 2c on this...

I've seen a LOT of these type of positions lately (I've an IT background myself), and many of them want qualifications and experience before they go on to say that "this position is unpaid".

Like Izzy, I can't afford to work for nothing. I'm almost 35 and am renting a house, paying bills, car/fuel costs, loan etc (all of which isn't easy when you've been made redundant!). "Moving home" (as often suggested) isn't an option for me for a variety of reasons.

To expect me then to take up a full-time UNPAID job (when I already have 12 years IT experience) would be ridiculous, and is simply an underhanded way for an employer to fill the position by taking advantage of someone's misfortune and it's on the increase at the moment. In my situation, given that most IT jobs are in Dublin, I'd be out at least €100 per week in fuel/toll/parking and lunch costs.

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

I have to agree with you here.

It is exploitation......the recession is just an excuse.....people need money to live......just because you have no experience does not mean a person is clueless about what they have to do.......a person works very hard in college etc to get into a position to go on to work in their chosen field......why should they be exploited by the greed of others to work for free??

They have earned a wage through their studies and by getting a qualification.

Stick your two fingers up at them........this country makes me sick the way they are cashing in on other peoples lives

muboop1

If you can live at home do, if not save up or alternatively, get a loan. You as you admitted have no experience using these qualifications or whatever.

So... maybe you should treat it as college. They don't pay you for college because you are learning etc, and in exchange for this experience you do some extra work for them. Well, this internship is giving you the experience with these qualifications to allow you to get a better job with them or with someone else later!

People say the same in college, like it or not but thats the current economy, if you don;t like it, well tuff. That or stick in the area you are already experienced in and earn cash.

The simple fact is, this experience may allow you to walk into those 50K a year jobs later on. It's an investment.

And bare in mind, they do not care what age you are. Because you chose to work for 4 years rather then go straight into this job, and you feel at 25 now you cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy... thats not their problem. They will simply find a nice 21/22 year old who will do it!

muboop1

muboop1 wrote: »

If you can live at home do, if not save up or alternatively, get a loan. You as you admitted have no experience using these qualifications or whatever.

I do have experience, just not loads of full time experience in this field. The MA I just finished was a professional qualification where we did a lot of practical work, and I've been doing freelance work in the field for the last couple of years. I can't live at home, and I can't really get a loan - I already owe over 16 grand in student loans from my undergrad.

So... maybe you should treat it as college. They don't pay you for college because you are learning etc, and in exchange for this experience you do some extra work for them. Well, this internship is giving you the experience with these qualifications to allow you to get a better job with them or with someone else later!

But it's NOT college. That's what college is for. I just spent a year being broke so that I could get this qualification which would allow me to work full time in the field - why should I be expected to work for free now? In college, they are teaching me, I'm not any use for them, but in a job they need me, so why work for free?

People say the same in college, like it or not but thats the current economy, if you don;t like it, well tuff. That or stick in the area you are already experienced in and earn cash.

I don't think that's a million miles away from slavery, to be honest. If I don't like it, tough? Why? Why is someone allowed to hire me for a job and not pay me? Just because they can? It's alright to exploit people because you can? Is this not a violation of human rights? This is not a whole new area to me, it's more or less what I've been gearing up to do since I was 17. I just needed a bit more education and practical knowledge, which I now have. If I want cash, I have to take a job doing something I don't want a career in just do I can pay the rent, so my field is essentially closed off to me because I don't have a rich dad/husband bankrolling me.

The simple fact is, this experience may allow you to walk into those 50K a year jobs later on. It's an investment.

But 1) I CAN'T AFFORD TO DO IT. That's the entire point. It doesn't matter how valuable the experience is if I can't survive while I do it. And 2) All jobs provide experience, all of them, so should we all be expected to work for free, because it'll pay off later? My cousin is training to be a hairdresser. She gets paid for her work. The salon owners don't expect her to work for free even though what she's learning now might help her to open her own salon in ten years. She's learning, but she's also providing a service for them. She did her unpaid experience during hairdressing college. So why is it different for graduate jobs?

And bare in mind, they do not care what age you are. Because you chose to work for 4 years rather then go straight into this job, and you feel at 25 now you cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy... thats not their problem. They will simply find a nice 21/22 year old who will do it!

Did you miss the part where I said they want experience and an advanced degree? As murphym7 pointed out, 25 is young to have two degrees and a few years of experience, there's no way a 21 year old finishing their undergrad would be qualified enough. So the only people who can take these positions are 25-30 year olds who are almost always being supported by their parents. This is a system where only the richest and most privileged can acquire the experience and connections, because the majority of people just need to work and earn money. It's not that I 'feel' that I cannot be sponging off mammy and daddy, it's simply not an option, and it isn't an option to a lot of people. Most people, I'd say.

Kaiser2000 wrote:

If an employer has a need for someone to do a standard 40-hour week job then they should be legally required to pay them for it.

I agree. I don't see how it's legal to do otherwise. Sure, pay a basic/minimum wage if you have to, but NOTHING?

gollem_1975

unfortunately the playing pitch has never been level and you have to deal the cards you are dealt.

in a recession things are even tougher for employers/businesses and prospective employees alike.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

unfortunately the playing pitch has never been level and you have to deal the cards you are dealt.

in a recession things are even tougher for employers/businesses and prospective employees alike.

Indeed it's tough but does that justify exploitation? This is really an ethical thing, no? If the people who didn't 'need' to work stopped accepting unpaid internships, employers would pay for good candidates to do the work. Working for free ultimately benefits nobody but the employer, surely? On a large scale it causes qualifications and experience to be devalued, and even for the privileged ones who can afford to do it, they surely still deserve to be paid for doing a job.

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66874430]
But it's NOT college. That's what college is for. I just spent a year being broke so that I could get this qualification which would allow me to work full time in the field - why should I be expected to work for free now? In college, they are teaching me, I'm not any use for them, but in a job they need me, so why work for free?
[/QUOTE]

people need to start viewing college more realistically from now on. there are shed loads of masters on offer from every 3rd level in the country. there is no guarantee of jobs at the end of these courses

I'm speaking from experience here. I have many years work experience also and a masters. eventually I took a WPP job ( which I wouldn't have got solely based on my masters ) and i'm glad I did ( to be back in work and learning stuff ).

in the jobs market at the moment relevant experience trumps a recent masters and no job experience.

perhaps you are right in that its not fair and there is a catch 22 where you can't afford to take an unpaid job to get experience -> can't get a job with experience ( but look on the positive side - at least you have experience )

why not chance your arm so to speak with these employers. tell them you want the job , you're worth it , tell them what you can do for them.. all that good stuff.. they might pay you if they think you will bring in more money than it costs to hire you ( thats the bottom line ). alternatively you could market your services directly to customers and get them to pay for it.

if you can't do this then you are back to working at whatever you can to pay the bills.

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66874642]Indeed it's tough but does that justify exploitation? This is really an ethical thing, no? If the people who didn't 'need' to work stopped accepting unpaid internships, employers would pay for good candidates to do the work. Working for free ultimately benefits nobody but the employer, surely? On a large scale it causes qualifications and experience to be devalued, and even for the privileged ones who can afford to do it, they surely still deserve to be paid for doing a job.[/QUOTE]

business in a recession is dog eat dog.

worrying about the ethics won't get you a job.

socio

Yea same here, it's infuriating to study for years and then either work for zilch or apply for same jobs as people without even a LC. Unfortunately I think unpaid is the way to go if you can afford it even for a few months. At least you get the experience...and then head to the airport with the rest of us.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

people need to start viewing college more realistically from now on. there are shed loads of masters on offer from every 3rd level in the country. there is no guarantee of jobs at the end of these courses

The sad thing is, I AM realistic and always have been. I had people telling me all through college that I'd walk into a well paid job because I did well, went to a reputable university and I speak several languages fluently. I always took that with a grain of salt and I was always perfectly happy to start off in entry level jobs for basic pay. I just never thought that after 5 years of college, several paid internships and full time work, I'd be expected to work for nothing.

I'm speaking from experience here. I have many years work experience also and a masters. eventually I took a WPP job ( which I wouldn't have got solely based on my masters ) and i'm glad I did ( to be back in work and learning stuff ).

in the jobs market at the moment relevant experience trumps a recent masters and no job experience.

perhaps you are right in that its not fair and there is a catch 22 where you can't afford to take an unpaid job to get experience -> can't get a job with experience ( but look on the positive side - at least you have experience )

It is a vicious circle. I need experience but I can't work for free to get it. It's hard to see a way out of that right now.

why not chance your arm so to speak with these employers. tell them you want the job , you're worth it , tell them what you can do for them.. all that good stuff.. they might pay you if they think you will bring in more money than it costs to hire you ( thats the bottom line ). alternatively you could market your services directly to customers and get them to pay for it.

I have tried this because I certainly can't work for free. I've had responses along the lines of, we'd love to hire you, but we can't afford to pay you, sorry. They'd rather take a worse candidate who won't cost them anything. I've freelanced before and am considering doing so again, as I can work directly with clients and set my own rules and all that, but it's very unstable and it'd be hard to get a new lease for an apartment or anything like that with pure freelance.

if you can't do this then you are back to working at whatever you can to pay the bills.

Well, that's it. I'm just bloody annoyed about it because I don't think I'm asking too much to be paid for working. I'm flexible - if accommodation/food was offered as part of the package, like it was with my old summer internships, then I could scrimp and save for the rest. But I need something to work with, I can't live on fresh air, and you're ineligible for the dole if you intern.

gollem_1975 wrote: »

business in a recession is dog eat dog.

worrying about the ethics won't get you a job.

So who would do these jobs if everyone refused to work without pay? I think this stuff ultimately comes back to bite everyone in the ass. People working for free = lack of respect for profession = lower salaries for everyone. Not paying employees means that you're not getting the best candidates, you're getting those who can afford to pay to work, surely not a good idea in the long run?

28064212

Here's the problem with wanting internships to be paid a proper wage: You're not going to get that position. There's 450,000 people out of work in the country, and many of them are better qualified and have more experience than you. They'll take a minimum wage job if they have to.

Internships aren't about the company saving money, they're about the applicant making themselves as attractive as possible to the company. Why should a company hire you if they can get someone for the same wage that won't need nearly as much training?

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875237]Well, that's it. I'm just bloody annoyed about it because I don't think I'm asking too much to be paid for working. I'm flexible - if accommodation/food was offered as part of the package, like it was with my old summer internships, then I could scrimp and save for the rest. But I need something to work with, I can't live on fresh air, and you're ineligible for the dole if you intern. [/QUOTE]
Look at the Fás WPP program - http://www.fas.ie/en/WPP/Participants.htm

gollem_1975

[quote=[Deleted User];66875237]

So who would do these jobs if everyone refused to work without pay? I think this stuff ultimately comes back to bite everyone in the ass. People working for free = lack of respect for profession = lower salaries for everyone. Not paying employees means that you're not getting the best candidates, you're getting those who can afford to pay to work, surely not a good idea in the long run?[/QUOTE]

you can't discount the fact that the labour market is extremely difficult at the moment.

at the moment i think if there was a prospect of being able to get a paying job in the future as a result of having relevant experience then there will always be someone willing to do the job for little or no money to get the edge on the competition

look at trainee accountants/barristers doing deviling/all kinds of apprenticeships ( hairdressing/electrician etc.)

the above ,compete with thousands of others doing exams to get into the civil service or unemployment was the status quo for many in Ireland up until "the celtic tiger"..

ps: as another poster mentioned the WPP scheme could be worth looking in to as you would be able to keep your JSB while you do your internship.

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

Here's the problem with wanting internships to be paid a proper wage: You're not going to get that position. There's 450,000 people out of work in the country, and many of them are better qualified and have more experience than you. They'll take a minimum wage job if they have to.

Internships aren't about the company saving money, they're about the applicant making themselves as attractive as possible to the company. Why should a company hire you if they can get someone for the same wage that won't need nearly as much training?

I didn't say I wanted a proper wage, a fair wage which reflects my years of study and hard work. I said a wage. I said multiple times that I would be willing to take a minimum wage job, because minimum wage will at least put a roof over my head and cover my Aldi and Lidl bills. Nobody going for these internships is better qualified than me, they're simply saving the company money by not needing a salary.

28064212 wrote: »

Look at the Fás WPP program - http://www.fas.ie/en/WPP/Participants.htm

I live in the UK, not Ireland.

gollem_1975

gollem_1975 wrote: »

you can't discount the fact that the labour market is extremely difficult at the moment.

at the moment i think if there was a prospect of being able to get a paying job in the future as a result of having relevant experience then there will always be someone willing to do the job for little or no money to get the edge on the competition

I know it's difficult. I just don't think that's any excuse for exploitation. Would you be appalled if your next door neighbour hired an African refugee to do up his house for no pay so that they could get experience in construction? And if the same man hired a graduate to work in his office answering the phone for no pay so the graduate could get experience in that industry? Is there a real difference?

look at trainee accountants/barristers doing deviling/all kinds of apprenticeships ( hairdressing/electrician etc.)

But they get paid.

the above ,compete with thousands of others doing exams to get into the civil service or unemployment was the status quo for many in Ireland up until "the celtic tiger"..

ps: as another poster mentioned the WPP scheme could be worth looking in to as you would be able to keep your JSB while you do your internship.

I don't think working for free was ever the norm, though. You got a job or you didn't get a job, but I don't think anyone from my parents' generation was expected to do a 40 year week in a suit for absolutely nothing. Am I mistaken?

I'd agree with this article:

When I was a college student, a summer internship at a big-city newspaper seemed just the thing to boost my nascent journalism career. But instead, I spent the summers as a big-city doorman, filling in for the regulars while they were on vacation. The reason was simple: Being a doorman paid a lot more, and I needed the money for tuition.

The reality is that unpaid internships are a great way of giving the children of affluence a leg up in life. If they really do help young people get permanent jobs in desirable fields, then the current internship system has the effect, however unintended, of reserving this advantage mainly for well-to-do families — families that happen to be disproportionately white. (Unpaid internships are No.105 on blogger Christian Lander's hilarious list of "stuff white people like.")

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/15/opinion/la-oe-akst-internships-20100615

While I don't like the Stuff White People Like site (cos it's racist and I don't think it's a race problem per se, but a class problem), this bit made me laugh. And then cry.

In most of the world when a person works long hours without pay, it is referred to as “slavery” or “forced labor.” For white people this process is referred to as an internship and is considered an essential stage in white development.

http://stuffwhitepeoplelike.com/2008/07/20/104-unpaid-internships/

Connavar

I have no problem with these internships in certain situations. For example, I know that once I complete my course(programming) I will not be qualified(doing well in my course but it the subject matter covered isn't enough to get me by in the working world)
However I think that if you have experience of around a year in the relevant field you should not be expected to work for free

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875787]I didn't say I wanted a proper wage, a fair wage which reflects my years of study and hard work. I said a wage. I said multiple times that I would be willing to take a minimum wage job, because minimum wage will at least put a roof over my head and cover my Aldi and Lidl bills. Nobody going for these internships is better qualified than me, they're simply saving the company money by not needing a salary[/QUOTE]
That's exactly my point. No-one better qualified is going for those internships because they're unpaid. If they were paid, there would be better qualified people applying.

By 'proper wage', I was referring to minimum wage or higher.

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

That's exactly my point. No-one better qualified is going for those internships because they're unpaid. If they were paid, there would be better qualified people applying.

By 'proper wage', I was referring to minimum wage or higher.

Well, of course. That's my point as well. They're not getting the best candidate, they're getting the best candidate who's in a position to work for free. That person could be the 21st strongest person in their class. The best person for the job is probably serving coffee at Starbucks because they need money from somewhere.

By saying 'proper wage' you're kind of implying that there's some remuneration. There isn't. Not even a token gesture. Even the ****tiest, most exploitative summer jobs I did as an undergrad offered pocket money as well as accommodation. Most of the companies offering internships aren't even willing to chip in for the £150 travel card I need to get there.

28064212

[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]I know it's difficult. I just don't think that's any excuse for exploitation. Would you be appalled if your next door neighbour hired an African refugee to do up his house for no pay so that they could get experience in construction?[/quote]
What does an African refugee have to do with it? But to answer your question, if my neighbour hired someone with no experience to do up his house, I'd laugh at him. That's not an internship, there is no training or supervision there, that's an unqualified sole trader doing a nixer. My neighbour gets what he paid for, and when his newly constructed conservatory collapses after a light shower, I'll laugh even harder. He'll know next time to get someone who knows what he is doing.
[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]And if the same man hired a graduate to work in his office answering the phone for no pay so the graduate could get experience in that industry? Is there a real difference?[/QUOTE]
How is that experience in the industry? That's receptionist experience. Again, not an internship. Why would a graduate do that? They don't gain anything from it
[quote=[Deleted User];66875998]

In most of the world when a person works long hours without pay, it is referred to as “slavery” or “forced labor.” For white people this process is referred to as an internship and is considered an essential stage in white development.

[/QUOTE]
Those kind of ridiculous statements just derail a thread. First of all, there have been plenty of white slaves. Secondly, the vital ingredient missing for it to be slavery is 'forced'. It's an option. It suits some people, but if you don't want to do it, don't
[quote=[Deleted User];66876365]By saying 'proper wage' you're kind of implying that there's some remuneration. There isn't. Not even a token gesture. Even the ****tiest, most exploitative summer jobs I did as an undergrad offered pocket money as well as accommodation. Most of the companies offering internships aren't even willing to chip in for the £150 travel card I need to get there.[/QUOTE]
First of all, have you actually asked them if they'd be willing to cover travel expenses? Or are you just basing that on the fact it's not specifically mentioned in the advertisements?

Secondly, the ****ty summer jobs you mentioned have nothing going for them except remuneration. If they didn't offer money, no-one would take them. Internships give you the opportunity to learn the industry, further your skills and gain experience. Money is nice, but not necessarily the prime objective. You are essentially being paid in experience.

_Kaiser_

28064212 wrote: »

Internships give you the opportunity to learn the industry, further your skills and gain experience. Money is nice, but not necessarily the prime objective. You are essentially being paid in experience.

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this..

In a situation like you describe, you are for all intents and purposes treated like an employee - except you don't get paid!

You will be expected to turn up on time, carry out whatever duties are assigned to you (including probably the "donkey work" others don't want/won't do!) AND you're expected to do all this professionaly and without complaint, AND at your own expense (travel costs, lunch etc).

I'm sorry but "unpaid experience" is for students doing it as past of college work - not a graduate or experienced employee who has earned their qualifications/experience.. that's just exploitation, and while it's being dressed up as "work placement" or "internships" or whatever, it's still morally (and should be legally!) wrong!

jayteecork

I've always wondered about this.

When I hear about barristers and their "devilling" I can only assume that it was brought about to keep the working class out of the profession.

28064212

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this..

In a situation like you describe, you are for all intents and purposes treated like an employee - except you don't get paid!

You will be expected to turn up on time, carry out whatever duties are assigned to you (including probably the "donkey work" others don't want/won't do!) AND you're expected to do all this professionaly and without complaint, AND at your own expense (travel costs, lunch etc).

I'm sorry but "unpaid experience" is for students doing it as past of college work - not a graduate or experienced employee who has earned their qualifications/experience.. that's just exploitation, and while it's being dressed up as "work placement" or "internships" or whatever, it's still morally (and should be legally!) wrong!

So don't do it. I believe that the experience and skills I'm gaining are worth more than the minimum wage I could get in a menial job. If you make internships illegal, and force the minimum wage to be paid, a company will just give the job to one of the other thousand people out there who are better qualified and more experienced than me.

In the current economic climate there is zero demand for new graduates. There will always be demand for skilled and experienced workers, and there will always be demand for unskilled labour, but companies have no need for someone that has to trained up at the moment, they can get someone who is equally qualified and more experienced for the same price