NEW CHAMPIONSHIP FORMAT

DH2K9

Apologize in advance somebody has already come up with this format as I am new to boards.ie.

Play National Leagues and Provincial Championships earlier in the year and get rid of the secondary competitions in January like the O'Byrne Cup, McGrath Cup, Walsh Cup etc.

Once Provincial Championships are over use them as seedings for All-Ireland Championships.
Finalists = 1
Semi-Finalists = 2
Quarter-Finalist/Round 1 losers = 3, 4

FOOTBALL

8 groups of 4 teams (get rid of New York and London and bring back Kilkenny)

Play every team once.

1st = Qualify for Last 16
2nd = Home Play-Off with 3rd
3rd = Away Play-Off with 2nd
4th = OUT or maybe revamped Tommy Murphy Cup?

So Play-Offs, Last 16, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Final.

HURLING

4 groups of 4 teams (original 13 teams plus 3 from Christy Ring Cup)

Play every team once.

1st = Qualify for Quarter-Finals
2nd = Home Play-Off with 3rd
3rd = Away Play-Off with 2nd
4th = Relegation Play-Offs

So Play-Offs, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Final.

TV

So I would bring in Setanta and TG4 along with TV3 and RTE.

Stations bid for games with more games on TV.

Have weekend window so each individual station could choose when there games are broadcast in conjunction with relevant County Boards.

Could see Friday-Night Games.

What do you think?

PTH2009

So this would be your montly plans
Jan- NHL & NFL
Feb-NHL & NFL
Mar-NHL & NFL
Apr- Provincial Championships
May- All Ireland Grp Series
Jun- All Ireland Grp Series
Jul- All Ireland Later Stages
Aug- All Ireland Semi Finals
Sep- All Ireland Finals

IMO the Provincal championships are more vital in the Hurling Championships than they are in the Football Championships. It would ruin The Provincal Championships in both codes knowing that you get no real reward for winning it only a 1st seed place in the group stage draw (even if you lose the final you still get the same reward as the provincal champions). Teams would be showing no real desire in the provincal games knowing they have more chances of glory in the all ireland series. They would be no real atmosphere at the games in both the Provincal Hurling and Football Championships and the attendences would be low.

I do like youre system in both codes but i think the provincal championships sould play a bigger role. Provincal champions sould get a reward

Flukey

We get a plethora of suggested championship formats here each year, especially during the summer. Other than removing Galway and Antrim from the Leinster Hurling Championship, because it has been a complete and utter flop and unmitigated disaster, I'd leave things more or less the same as they are for now in both codes.

Flukey

Flukey wrote: »

Other than removing Galway and Antrim from the Leinster Hurling Championship, because it has been a complete and utter flop and unmitigated disaster

What?

You are unique with that opinion, The general consensus of Galway being added anyway is that it has been a success. Hopefully Galway will get home games now too when it is reviewed this year.

Flukey

Ariana Many Refrigeration wrote: »

What?

You are unique with that opinion,

Far from it. It was a totally ridiculous idea from the beginning. We have the farcical situation where Leinster counties aren't allowed in their own championship, but Galway and Antrim are. Since they started playing in it nothing has changed, in that they are playing counties that were playing beforehand. Prior to their entry into it, they were regularly playing counties like Laois, Offaly, Kilkenny etc., so it has achieved nothing. At least Antrim are playing in the Ulster Championship, winning it last weekend. Galway should be playing in the Connacht Championship. "What Connacht championship? The other 4 counties aren't good enough to put up a challenge?" you'll say. Exactly, and that is where the real problem lies. At the start of the year, would Galway be put down as being possible winners of the All-Ireland? Yes, of course they would. Would Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim or Mayo be regarded as contenders? Obviously not. That being the case, why is it that Galway are regarded as a problem? Galway are not the problem. The real problem, the other 4 counties in Connacht, and indeed the other counties in Leinster and Ulster, are the problem. It is like going into a doctor with a broken leg and in an attempt to treat it, the doctor puts stitches into your eyebrow.

Galway aren't and never have been the problem. Moving them to Leinster has done nothing to change their status, and has done nothing to help the real problems in Hurling. So the experiment has been a complete and utter failure. If, next year, as a result of Galway and Antrim being in Leinster, Longford and Roscommon end up playing in the All-Ireland Senior Hurling Final, then it will have achieved something. That is not going to happen, is it? So what the GAA should be doing is concentrating on plans where that Longford v Roscommon All-Ireland Final would be a possibility, instead of trying to address something that is not a problem. Longford v Roscommon in the All-Ireland Hurling Final isn't going to happen any time soon, but if the GAA started to address the problems Hurling has, it could at sometime in the future. Putting Galway into Leinster will do nothing to help that.

Go back to the pre-2009 scenario for Galway and Antrim. That will still have them playing Leinster counties during the course of the championship anyway. Then let some more Leinster counties into Leinster, and return Roscommon, a county which actually does have some strong Hurling areas, into the Connacht Championship, and we'll at least have a step towards addressing Hurling's problems. Oh, and the 2019 All-Ireland Senior Hurling Final between Roscommon and Longford, a local derby indeed, will be a cracker. I'm looking forward to it.

PatsytheNazi

I think things are fine as they are, too much chopping and changing.

FirePower

Right here goes my idea for a championship format:

Scrap the Provincial championships, the current qualifier system makes them almost redundant anyway. Its ridiculous that one provincial championship has 11 teams competing in it while another has only 6. If you want you can have the provincial championships earlier in the year before the NFL in place of the O'Byrne cup etc.

Instead of dividing the teams by province, I would divide them by regions, North, South, East and West, with each region having 8 teams. Each region would be divided into 2 groups of 4 where a team would play every other team in their group once.

the top two in each group would advance to the semi finals of their region where for eg 1st in group a plays 2nd in group b and 2nd in group a plays 1st in b. Semi final winners then contest the final to win the regional championship.

The 4 winners of each region advance to the AI semi finals and so on.

The advantages of this are that each region has the same amount of teams so it is fairer and the presence of group stages mean every team plays at least 3 games. Also the qualifiers are done away with so there will be no more "back door" winners.

When deciding which county should go into which region an effort should be made to make sure traditional provincial rivals are in the same region.

Southern Championship:
Kerry
Cork
Waterford
Tipperary
Limerick
Wexford
Carlow
London or Kilkenny if they ever take an interest in football

Wexford and Carlow are perfect for relocation since their southern counties and in Leinster football their only rivals are each other.

Western Championship:
Clare
Galway
Mayo
Sligo
Leitrim
Donegal
Longford
Roscommon

Clare have a hurling rivalry with Galway and are separated from the rest of munster by the shannon so they can be considered a western county. Donagal sees itself as a province in itself so they could be convinced to leave ulster. Longford's a trickier one because they'll be separated from their rival westmeath.

Northern Championship:
Antrim
Down
Derry
Armagh
Tyrone
Fermanagh
Cavan
Monaghan

Largely the same as ulster. Donegal no longer there of course.

Eastern Championship:
Louth
Meath
Dublin
Westmeath
Wicklow
Laois
Offaly
Kildare


So yeah, 4 regional champions out of that lot and then semi finals and a final.

BESman

A lot of typical GAA head responses here of "sure its alright the way it is".

No, its not.

OP's suggestion is the best I've heard in a long time. The Provinicial Championships are so stupid and redundant now that the qualifiers are in place. Why do we have Provincial Championships? What is the fascination with them? Another poster made a point that has always been my main argument, and that is that all the provinces have a different number of teams. One province has 11 teams in their championship while another has only 6. Is that not completely retarded?

Scrap the provincial championships, bring in some kind of seeding system based on the league and adopt a group and knockout style championship like OP has outlined.

KevIRL

Flukey wrote: »

. Other than removing Galway and Antrim from the Leinster Hurling Championship, because it has been a complete and utter flop and unmitigated disaster, I'd leave things more or less the same as they are for now in both codes.

Flukey, I agree that it hasnt gone great so far, but part of the problem with GAA imo is that they never leave things alone long enough for them to bed in. Give it a proper chance etc.

However I do feel that the Leinster Championship should be open to all counties in Leinster, seed it the way that the new Ulster hurling championship is, with the very weak teams meeting early on, the winners playing teams at the nearest level above them. For example Louth v Longford in round 1, the winners progressing to round 2 joining the likes of Meath, Wicklow, Kildare, the winners here joining Laois, Antrim, Carlow, in round 3 and the winners here joining everyone else in rd 4 onwards. That gives all counties games, and should avoid huge mis matches.

Likewise Connacht can run a championship now, without Galway. Give teams games, help them improve.

blackbelt

I think the system does need major tweaking.I'd tend to agree with the group and knockout stage finally whereas in other years I thought the system was ok.I still believe though that the provincials should be kept and the champions kept in separate groups.Also you could separate league division winners.NFL 1 - 4 winners in 4 different groups and provincial champions in the other 4 groups where applicable.

What we need is a proper system where consistency is rewarded.I like the idea of 8 groups of 4 where even weaker teams like Clare,London etc get more games.It would also get rid of the time gap that provincial champions suffer as well as the qualifier gap where teams may have to wait 6 week til their next game.

Eg

Group A

1.Cork (NFL 1 Champs)
2.Mayo
3.Fermanagh
4.Laois

Group B

1.Armagh (NFL 2 Champs)
2.Dublin
3.Down
4.Limerick

Group C

1.Sligo (NFL3 Champs and Connaught Champions)
2.Kildare
3.Derry
4.Carlow

Group D

1.Waterford (NFL 4 champs
2.Wexford
3.Galway
4.Monaghan

Group E

1.Tyrone (Ulster Champs)
2.Monaghan
3.Louth
4.Offaly

Group F

1.Kerry (Munster Champs)
2.Roscommon
3.Tipperary
4.Donegal

Group G

1.Meath (Leinster Champs)
2.Longford
3.Antrim
4.Westmeath

Group H

1.London
2.Leitrim
3.Wicklow
4.Clare


If we are to go by this years model of league and provincial winners (some of it assumed) then we would get some interesting groupsHave the other 3 teams at random.Also do a random draw where table toppers and runners up from each group are put in a drum beforehand.

Deise Tom

Can it be taken that those that look for extented championship seasons are ones that have little if any regard for the club scene, which is the most important unit of the gaa. To revert back to a play knockout system would be the best solution, and if managers and county boards were looking for meaningful games let them put more of an empuses on the league.

DH2K9

What about professionalism. My idea would support that. More games, more tv. As for the club scene why do inter-county players play for their club. Shouldn't it be a promotion. Make clubs play without their inter-county players and bring youngsters up.

Deise Tom

DH2K9 wrote: »

What about professionalism. My idea would support that. More games, more tv. As for the club scene why do inter-county players play for their club. Shouldn't it be a promotion. Make clubs play without their inter-county players and bring youngsters up.

Anyone thinking that the GAA could support professional players is away with the fairies. Hurling and Football is not like other sports. It appeals mostly to the Irish, so big tv comapnies are not going to throw millions ay it like they do with Rugby, Soccer and Crickey who all have a far bigger world wide audience. RTE, TV3, TG4 or Setanta are not going to give the association anything much greater than they do all ready. If money from gates was used to pay for these professionals you seem to be looking for, then the clubs will see hard times as much of this gate money is pumped back into the clubs year in, year out by the provincial and central councils.

Fr Tod Umptious

DH2K9 wrote: »

Apologize in advance somebody has already come up with this format as I am new to boards.ie.

Play National Leagues and Provincial Championships earlier in the year and get rid of the secondary competitions in January like the O'Byrne Cup, McGrath Cup, Walsh Cup etc.

Once Provincial Championships are over use them as seedings for All-Ireland Championships.
Finalists = 1
Semi-Finalists = 2
Quarter-Finalist/Round 1 losers = 3, 4

FOOTBALL

8 groups of 4 teams (get rid of New York and London and bring back Kilkenny)

Play every team once.

1st = Qualify for Last 16
2nd = Home Play-Off with 3rd
3rd = Away Play-Off with 2nd
4th = OUT or maybe revamped Tommy Murphy Cup?

So Play-Offs, Last 16, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Final.

Good post, I'd debate the merits of Kilkenny v London as the 32nd team though

Also I don't understand the Play-off

Does the 2nd placed team, play off against the 3rd placed from another group

BESman wrote: »

OP's suggestion is the best I've heard in a long time. The Provinicial Championships are so stupid and redundant now that the qualifiers are in place. Why do we have Provincial Championships? What is the fascination with them?

Even though the provinicial championship are flwaed you cannot deny that they are going to be a huge deal for Louth, Sligo, Roscommon and Monaghan this year, plus had Limerick won last Sunday then they would be huge in that county

Fr Tod Umptious

Deise Tom wrote: »

Anyone thinking that the GAA could support professional players is away with the fairies. Hurling and Football is not like other sports. It appeals mostly to the Irish, so big tv comapnies are not going to throw millions ay it like they do with Rugby, Soccer and Crickey who all have a far bigger world wide audience. RTE, TV3, TG4 or Setanta are not going to give the association anything much greater than they do all ready. If money from gates was used to pay for these professionals you seem to be looking for, then the clubs will see hard times as much of this gate money is pumped back into the clubs year in, year out by the provincial and central councils.

Totally agree, we do not have the market size in Ireland to support a large professional league

If it were to happen we may just end up with 6 teams in Football

Dublin + one more in the East
One in the North
One in West
Kerry + one more in the South

Deise Tom

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Totally agree, we do not have the market size in Ireland to support a large professional league

If it were to happen we may just end up with 6 teams in Football

Dublin + one more in the East
One in the North
One in West
Kerry + one more in the South

All you have to do is look at what has happened in soccer when someone got the idea that Ireland could sustain professional or near professional clubs. How many have gone out of buisness or nearly went out of buisness in recent years. Rugby folk wont want to hear this but i feel that Rugby will go the same route. Sky and Setanta will not keep pumbing money into the game. I only hope depite what Sean Óg, John Mullane and Jason Sherlock in recent times have been saying, that the GAA will never go professional.

jordainius

Professionalism; NO...

Firstly, it would be unsustainable, there would have to be a dramatic increase in the amount of games, admission prices would have to go up, merchandise and marketing would go in to overdrive.

And free to air TV would probably go out the window too. Professionalism would only turn the GAA primarily into a money making machine. Some might argue that it already is, but professionalism would only make it ten times worse and it wouldn't be possible to continue with 32 counties. No more than eight counties would be able to survive.

Why do I follow Limerick? Because it is my county, and because the 15 guys on the pitch are the same as the rest of us, they are farmers, doctors, solicitors, college students, salesmen, and so on. They are not doing it for fiscal reward, they are doing it because like myself, they love my county.

Also, professionalism would only take the players away from their clubs. I absolutely love going to watch my club games at all levels, and I'm lucky enough that my club has had a nice supply of players who have been on the county panel for the last 10/15 years, the club has had a successful decade and it would not have happened but for a handful of our better players.

Look what professionalism has done for the AIL in rugby; once a province picks a Paul O'Connell from Young Munster or a John Hayes from Bruff, he pretty much never plays for his club again.


That's one thing that bothers me about all these championship formats people keep suggesting is that nine times out of ten they are all bad for the clubs, the more championship games the counties get the more it impacts negatively on the clubs.

The backdoor is what has caused the problems; there was no talk of professionalism or pay for play before ten years ago, because the backdoor has only served to increase the workload required from the players.

The backdoor has only served to dilute the importance of the national leagues and while it has given weaker counties more games, it has only served to increase the chances of success for stronger counties. The backdoor probably cost Waterford an All-Ireland in 2004 and it has probably cost Cork, Dublin and a few others the Sam Maguire too.

Take away the backdoor and the leagues take on more importance, we go back to good old traditional knockout one chance only hurling (and football) which produced an undefeated All-Ireland champion, the club county championships would benefit, and the decreased workload on intercounty players would put an end to talk of pay for play. It's not perfect but when we had it up to 1997 in hurling and 2001 in football, it worked fine. Yes, it was harsh that a season was over after just one defeat, but apart from that there was nothing wrong.

And there is no need to point out to me that it will never happen because I already know that!!

Deise Tom

jordainius wrote: »

Take away the backdoor and the leagues take on more importance, we go back to good old traditional knockout one chance only hurling (and football) which produced an undefeated All-Ireland champion, the club county championships would benefit, and the decreased workload on intercounty players would put an end to talk of pay for play. It's not perfect but when we had it up to 1997 in hurling and 2001 in football, it worked fine. Yes, it was harsh that a season was over after just one defeat, but apart from that there was nothing wrong.

Agree 100%. If county managers and County Boards put more of an imputus on the leagues there would be no need for back door competitions and these champion league style championships that people alook for. Straight knockout championships work best, always did and always will. Do teams in england get a second chance if they are beaten in the FA Cup. No. You loose and you are out. The Hurling and Football Championships should be the same. Imagine the boust a weaker county would get if Kilkenny were knocked out of the hurling championship at the first hurdle, or if Kerry, Cork, Dublin or Tyrone were to fall in football. Right now the weaker county will have to watch the sting in the tail of the stronger counties if they are knocked out of the provincial championships without silverware.

DC_Roscommon

IMO the easiest thing to do would be to start the championship in March and play the league throughtout the season. Get rid of the qualifiers. Have league one week, championship the next. It would give counties knocked out of the championship something to play for. eg for Roscommon something like...

March 5 London --- Connaght Quater-Final
March 18 Limerick --- League r1
March 29 Louth --- League r2
April 10 Leitrim --- Connaght Semi Final
etc.......


:cool:

Deise Tom

DC_Roscommon wrote: »

IMO the easiest thing to do would be to start the championship in March and play the league throughtout the season. Get rid of the qualifiers. Have league one week, championship the next. It would give counties knocked out of the championship something to play for. eg for Roscommon something like...

March 5 London --- Connaght Quater-Final
March 18 Limerick --- League r1
March 29 Louth --- League r2
April 10 Leitrim --- Connaght Semi Final
etc.......


:cool:

Great idea, but when and where are clubs going to get to play if this happens. Its ok in Soccer and Rugby where big name players dont play with a unit beneath the high level they play at. GAA players, the best of them, play for a county and for something called a club

DC_Roscommon

Between October and March

Fr Tod Umptious

DH2K9 wrote: »

Apologize in advance somebody has already come up with this format as I am new to boards.ie.

Play National Leagues and Provincial Championships earlier in the year and get rid of the secondary competitions in January like the O'Byrne Cup, McGrath Cup, Walsh Cup etc.

Once Provincial Championships are over use them as seedings for All-Ireland Championships.
Finalists = 1
Semi-Finalists = 2
Quarter-Finalist/Round 1 losers = 3, 4

FOOTBALL

8 groups of 4 teams (get rid of New York and London and bring back Kilkenny)

Play every team once.

1st = Qualify for Last 16
2nd = Home Play-Off with 3rd
3rd = Away Play-Off with 2nd
4th = OUT or maybe revamped Tommy Murphy Cup?

So Play-Offs, Last 16, Quarter-Finals, Semi-Finals and Final.

Based on this years Provincial Championships this is what a system would look like, note the only rule I used was that a semi-finalist cannot play in the same group as the finalist they lost to.

Does not look to bad, mind you Group 1 is a bit of a tough one

Monaghan
Galway
Kildare
Derry

Kerry
Down
Wicklow
Armagh

Sligo
Fermamagh
Laois
London

Louth
Letrim
Wexford
Carlow

Tyrone
Cork
Mayo
Longford

Roscommon
Westmeath
Antrim
Offaly

Meath
Waterford
Donegal
Derry

Limerick
Dublin
Cavan
Tipperary

Deise Tom

DC_Roscommon wrote: »

Between October and March

I hope you are like me at times on the forums and say things to get some people going.

aDeener

i was thinking of something similar enough myself op only for football though.

where you play the provincial championships first and seed the teams depending on where they finish into 8 groups of 4 - london, kilkenny and new york should have a 3 way play off to determine who gets the 32nd spot.

then into a last 16 knock out. i think this would keep traditionalists who are in favour of retaining the provincial championships happy, also those who like knockout (for the all-ireland winners, they will end up having played 4 knockout matches - back in the day kerry often only had to play 4 games to win, munster semi/final and AI semi/final) and those who want a more equitable system as currently it simply is not fair to everyone.

there are no doubt flaws to this as it would mean much more games (finding time for everything is difficult enough as it is), but as a player i know well this is what i would prefer. if there werent matches there would be training. give me matches every day over training.

it would need to be well laid out in advance so as not to interfere with club football (which is the major drawback) and also it would more than likely necessitate the scrapping of the o'byrne/mcgrath cups etc which i would not like to see as i think they are very useful competitions for blooding young players and i feel that teams would be playing challenges anyway so may as well have competitive games.

Pete_Cavan

aDeener wrote: »

where you play the provincial championships first and seed the teams depending on where they finish into 8 groups of 4 - london, kilkenny and new york should have a 3 way play off to determine who gets the 32nd spot.

There is not enough time to play both a meaningless (as it would be under that proposal) provincial championship and some crazy group thing, the league doesn’t really work so why would doing it on a smaller scale be bigger success? And why do you need to seed teams? Its a championship, you win one match and progress to the next round, simple. A back door gives teams a second chance.
Heres what I propose;

Basically its the same as the present system except provincial structure is reorgansied into four regional championships with 8 teams in each. This allows a more structured system with all teams playing the same amount of games. The problem with the current system is some teams can get to a provincial final by playing one game and so can reach a All Ireland quarter final with two wins while some teams would have to play six games to reach that stage.

Divide the teams up as FirePower sugested earlier in the thread, allowing local rivalries to be retained and keeping the prestige of a provincial championship:

FirePower wrote: »

Southern Championship:
Kerry
Cork
Waterford
Tipperary
Limerick
Wexford
Carlow
London or Kilkenny if they ever take an interest in football

Wexford and Carlow are perfect for relocation since their southern counties and in Leinster football their only rivals are each other.

Western Championship:
Clare
Galway
Mayo
Sligo
Leitrim
Donegal
Longford
Roscommon

Clare have a hurling rivalry with Galway and are separated from the rest of munster by the shannon so they can be considered a western county. Donagal sees itself as a province in itself so they could be convinced to leave ulster. Longford's a trickier one because they'll be separated from their rival westmeath.

Northern Championship:
Antrim
Down
Derry
Armagh
Tyrone
Fermanagh
Cavan
Monaghan

Largely the same as ulster. Donegal no longer there of course.

Eastern Championship:
Louth
Meath
Dublin
Westmeath
Wicklow
Laois
Offaly
Kildare

The way it works then is as follows (Note: each game week as I have called them means matches played over Friday, Saturday and Sunday of a weekend, although not necessarily on each day just that weekend, and they do not need to be in consecutive weekends, eg. Game Week 2 can be played two weeks after Game Week 1);

Game Week 1; Championship kicks off (or throws in!) with a bang with a weekend long feast of football. Quarter finals in each regional championship with all 32 counties in action on one weekend. With a few big local clashes (Tyrone v Armagh or Cork v Kerry), a doubleheader at Croker maybe on Sunday and the right promotion should get fans out in force. Winners into Semi finals while losser have to go through the backdoor.

Game Week 2; The 16 lossing teams from Game Week 1 playoff in what is effectively the backdoor.

Game Week 3; Semi Finals in each regional championship. 8 matches in total across the weekend. Again if its well marketed and venues chosen carefully there could be big attendences across the country. Winners advance to regional finals while lossers again drop to back door.

Game Week 4; 8 winners from Game Week 2 (round 1 of Qualifiers) are joined by the 8 lossers from the regional championships semi finals. 16 teams in round 2 with 8 progressing to round 3.

Game Week 5; Regional championship finals weekend, probabily two on Saturday and two on Sunday for TV coverage.

Game Week 6; Round 3 of the qualifiers, the 8 winners from round 2 in Game Week 4.

Game Week 7; Round 4 of the qualifiers, the 4 winners from round 3 are joined by the 4 lossing regional championship finalists.

Game Week 8; All Ireland quarter finalists with 4 regional champions playing the 4 teams to have made it through the back door.

Game Week 9; All Ireland semi finals

Game Week 10; All Ireland final

The advantages of this are;

• The 10 Game Week structure allows for greater planning. No club games on these weekends, theres only ten game weeks so plenty of time in the rest of the calander for club fixtures (last years chmpionship started on 10th May and finished on 20th September with games on 16 weekends). County leagues and championships can be better fixed around these set dates
• Boosts both because clubs have their county players and counties get more supporters (some games in Cavan this Sunday even though county team plays Cork on Saturday, thats just retarded)
• Local rivalries are retained through regional championships
• You also get a few random fixtures in the back door (Im heading to Cork tomorrow for the Cavan game on Saturday, dont know when the last time we played them was)
• Weaker teams who have no chance of winning the All Ireland still have the pride of being regional champions to aim for
• Every county is gauranteed at least two championship matches with only 8 teams playing two and very other team gets three or more (with straight knock out teams that only get one championship match each year will lose support and if it continues interest and playing numbers will drop)
• Regional winners play three matches to get to quarter finals, back door teams play five (better than 2 and 6). Back door has to be a longer route anyway otherwise there is no advantage for regional winners
• The cream will rise to the top and the most deserving team will be crowned All Ireland champions. Even if the big teams lose the first day they will continue through the qualifiers meaning we get to see the top players again, upping the standard and drawing crowds. Weaker teams who get hammered the first day also get a second bit of the cherry to redeem themselves

aDeener

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is not enough time to play both a meaningless (as it would be under that proposal) provincial championship and some crazy group thing, the league doesn’t really work so why would doing it on a smaller scale be bigger success? And why do you need to seed teams? Its a championship, you win one match and progress to the next round, simple. A back door gives teams a second chance.

i know what i proposed isn't perfect, i don't think any system is i was just throwing it out there as there certainly is better formats available than the current one. that said.
i dont think the provincial championship is meaningless: only cork, kerry, dublin, galway, mayo & tyrone don't truly value them every other county would cherise such a win. seeding would give all counties that extra incentive to perform in them as it would give an easier group. the group also gives a second chance as a team can still lose yet qualify for the last 16. this guarantees 1 provincial match and 3 championship games in the group. i dont see how you think the league doesnt work thats purely subjective, imo the league is excellent, gives all counties something to strive for and prepares teams for championship.

i accept your point on the time frame of this, that would be a problem.

i like the notion of an open draw competition i have to say

Pete_Cavan

aDeener wrote: »

i dont think the provincial championship is meaningless: only cork, kerry, dublin, galway, mayo & tyrone don't truly value them every other county would cherise such a win. seeding would give all counties that extra incentive to perform in them as it would give an easier group.

I dont think the provincial championship is meaningless, but it would be if it was only a way of improving your seeding for a group stage. Even if you were a no 1 seed for the draw you could still end up in a very difficult group. Based on this years provincial championships, Dublin, Cork, Armagh and Derry could all be lower seeds. A team like Roscommon could end up in a group with two of these plus maybe Kerry or Tyrone. A good run in provincial championship could potentially be of no benefit to a weaker team when it comes to the group stage and therefore it becomes meaningless to them.

aDeener wrote: »

i dont see how you think the league doesnt work thats purely subjective, imo the league is excellent, gives all counties something to strive for and prepares teams for championship.

Theres nothing wrong with the league as such, imo. What I meant was it doesnt draw crowds the way a good local darby in the provincial championship does. I just dont see they doing it with groups of four would be any different.

aDeener wrote: »

i like the notion of an open draw competition i have to say

No, just... No.

aDeener

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I dont think the provincial championship is meaningless, but it would be if it was only a way of improving your seeding for a group stage. Even if you were a no 1 seed for the draw you could still end up in a very difficult group. Based on this years provincial championships, Dublin, Cork, Armagh and Derry could all be lower seeds. A team like Roscommon could end up in a group with two of these plus maybe Kerry or Tyrone. A good run in provincial championship could potentially be of no benefit to a weaker team when it comes to the group stage and therefore it becomes meaningless to them.

a provincial title will be looked at as a huge achievement from say the likes of limerick, sligo, louth were they to win it regardless of what may happen afterwards. the chances are though the better the seeding you get the easier the group should be, i know that that will not always work out that way given the luck of the draw but there is nothing that can be done about it. which is the same now, a team could wind up in the q-final from the qualifiers due to getting poor teams whereas a decent enough team like donegal are out.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with the league as such, imo. What I meant was it doesnt draw crowds the way a good local darby in the provincial championship does. I just dont see they doing it with groups of four would be any different.

that is down to the piss poor attempts from the gaa at marketing. look at what they achieved for the 1st round dublin tyrone league match in 2009. its unreal what can/could be achieved with a bit of effort.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

No, just... No.

it'll not happen anyway, i like the romanticism of it like the fa cup, one chance, drawn against anybody! the centenary cup was a fair success when it was done

Deise Tom

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

There is not enough time to play both a meaningless (as it would be under that proposal) provincial championship and some crazy group thing, the league doesn’t really work so why would doing it on a smaller scale be bigger success? And why do you need to seed teams? Its a championship, you win one match and progress to the next round, simple. A back door gives teams a second chance.
Heres what I propose;

Basically its the same as the present system except provincial structure is reorgansied into four regional championships with 8 teams in each. This allows a more structured system with all teams playing the same amount of games. The problem with the current system is some teams can get to a provincial final by playing one game and so can reach a All Ireland quarter final with two wins while some teams would have to play six games to reach that stage.

Divide the teams up as FirePower sugested earlier in the thread, allowing local rivalries to be retained and keeping the prestige of a provincial championship:



The way it works then is as follows (Note: each game week as I have called them means matches played over Friday, Saturday and Sunday of a weekend, although not necessarily on each day just that weekend, and they do not need to be in consecutive weekends, eg. Game Week 2 can be played two weeks after Game Week 1);

Game Week 1; Championship kicks off (or throws in!) with a bang with a weekend long feast of football. Quarter finals in each regional championship with all 32 counties in action on one weekend. With a few big local clashes (Tyrone v Armagh or Cork v Kerry), a doubleheader at Croker maybe on Sunday and the right promotion should get fans out in force. Winners into Semi finals while losser have to go through the backdoor.

Game Week 2; The 16 lossing teams from Game Week 1 playoff in what is effectively the backdoor.

Game Week 3; Semi Finals in each regional championship. 8 matches in total across the weekend. Again if its well marketed and venues chosen carefully there could be big attendences across the country. Winners advance to regional finals while lossers again drop to back door.

Game Week 4; 8 winners from Game Week 2 (round 1 of Qualifiers) are joined by the 8 lossers from the regional championships semi finals. 16 teams in round 2 with 8 progressing to round 3.

Game Week 5; Regional championship finals weekend, probabily two on Saturday and two on Sunday for TV coverage.

Game Week 6; Round 3 of the qualifiers, the 8 winners from round 2 in Game Week 4.

Game Week 7; Round 4 of the qualifiers, the 4 winners from round 3 are joined by the 4 lossing regional championship finalists.

Game Week 8; All Ireland quarter finalists with 4 regional champions playing the 4 teams to have made it through the back door.

Game Week 9; All Ireland semi finals

Game Week 10; All Ireland final

The advantages of this are;

• The 10 Game Week structure allows for greater planning. No club games on these weekends, theres only ten game weeks so plenty of time in the rest of the calander for club fixtures (last years chmpionship started on 10th May and finished on 20th September with games on 16 weekends). County leagues and championships can be better fixed around these set dates
• Boosts both because clubs have their county players and counties get more supporters (some games in Cavan this Sunday even though county team plays Cork on Saturday, thats just retarded)
• Local rivalries are retained through regional championships
• You also get a few random fixtures in the back door (Im heading to Cork tomorrow for the Cavan game on Saturday, dont know when the last time we played them was)
• Weaker teams who have no chance of winning the All Ireland still have the pride of being regional champions to aim for
• Every county is gauranteed at least two championship matches with only 8 teams playing two and very other team gets three or more (with straight knock out teams that only get one championship match each year will lose support and if it continues interest and playing numbers will drop)
• Regional winners play three matches to get to quarter finals, back door teams play five (better than 2 and 6). Back door has to be a longer route anyway otherwise there is no advantage for regional winners
• The cream will rise to the top and the most deserving team will be crowned All Ireland champions. Even if the big teams lose the first day they will continue through the qualifiers meaning we get to see the top players again, upping the standard and drawing crowds. Weaker teams who get hammered the first day also get a second bit of the cherry to redeem themselves

If this type of championship was to be used you would have to scrap the National Leagues, so that counties could get some chance to play their county championships. If this was to happen you would have certain managers crying into their tea-cups as they would be claiming that they would not have enough games to try out new players ahead of the championship.

Deise Tom

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I dont think the provincial championship is meaningless.

Neither do i, and i dount the Munster Council would want to loose its Senior Hurling Championship, Leinster would not want to loose it football because of the numbers that attend Dublin's games and the ulster council would not want to loose its football championship.

DC_Roscommon

Deise Tom wrote: »

I hope you are like me at times on the forums and say things to get some people going.

Couldn't help it lol......

DC_Roscommon wrote: »

IMO the easiest thing to do would be to start the championship in March and play the league throughtout the season. Get rid of the qualifiers. Have league one week, championship the next. It would give counties knocked out of the championship something to play for. eg for Roscommon something like...

March 5 London --- Connaght Quater-Final
March 18 Limerick --- League r1
March 29 Louth --- League r2
April 10 Leitrim --- Connaght Semi Final
etc.......


:cool:

With a break in the middle for clubs...(?)

Pete_Cavan

Deise Tom wrote: »

If this type of championship was to be used you would have to scrap the National Leagues, so that counties could get some chance to play their county championships. If this was to happen you would have certain managers crying into their tea-cups as they would be claiming that they would not have enough games to try out new players ahead of the championship.

Didnt you read my post? I suggested 10 game weeks that can be set aside at the start of the year and countys can plan there club championships around that. Last years championship had games played on 16 different weekends and no county was to know what weekend they would play on. My suggestion allows for six extra weeks over the summer for club fixtures and it would not affect the National League at all, I have no idea where you pulled that one from.

I also suggested alternating between the regional championships and qualifiers (game week 1 regionals, game week 2 qualifiers, game week 3 regionals and so on) so if you have to replay a regional semi final or final it can go ahead the same weekend as qualifiers allowing you stick to the 10 game week format. This allows better planning for club fixtures from the start of the year than the current system because at the minute you have no idea how far your county will get in the championship/qualifiers or when the games will be played. My suggestion means only ten weeks are needed for county games, less than at present so more time for club games.

DH2K9

Maybe not full-time professional but ill give you a few examples.

A Garda plays for Dublin at Croke Park, turns up goes home. Yet his mate who is also a Garda can earn potential ovetime at Croke Park. Is that fair?

Secondly if the GAA is a so called amateur organisation then it should be across the board. Why are these hierarchy people who turn up once a year at Congress get paid while the stars don't. The players should be getting their fair share.

What is the fascination in the provincial system it is out of date, I agree with the N, S, E, W system.

Also nobody cares about a clubs league, it is purely getting ready for championships. These championships should be straight knockout which would give ample time for expanded format and possible professionalism.

Deise Tom

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Didnt you read my post? I suggested 10 game weeks that can be set aside at the start of the year and countys can plan there club championships around that.

Casn i take it so that you are saying that it is ok for players to play in the club championships in sh!t and slop. What do these same players do then all the rest of the year. Play in possible mickey mouse league or challenge games.

aDeener

DH2K9 wrote: »

Maybe not full-time professional but ill give you a few examples.

A Garda plays for Dublin at Croke Park, turns up goes home. Yet his mate who is also a Garda can earn potential ovetime at Croke Park. Is that fair?

Secondly if the GAA is a so called amateur organisation then it should be across the board. Why are these hierarchy people who turn up once a year at Congress get paid while the stars don't. The players should be getting their fair share.

What is the fascination in the provincial system it is out of date, I agree with the N, S, E, W system.

Also nobody cares about a clubs league, it is purely getting ready for championships. These championships should be straight knockout which would give ample time for expanded format and possible professionalism.

fuck sake do you not realise that club for many many people is way more important than county? countless interviews ive seen with players who have all-ireland medals rank wins with their clubs as their most cherished achievement.


anyone who even considers professionalism in the GAA is either completely deluded or does not have the best interests of the association at heart.

i bet you anything if that guard won an all ireland with dublin he would not trade it for any over time

Pete_Cavan

Deise Tom wrote: »

Casn i take it so that you are saying that it is ok for players to play in the club championships in sh!t and slop. What do these same players do then all the rest of the year. Play in possible mickey mouse league or challenge games.

Again, did you read my post? I was promoting a more streamlined version of the current setup. The National Leagues do not change so it is exactly the same as the present system, with the exact same amount of time for National League and club games as present in the first half of the year. 8 regional championships means there are no preliminary rounds to be played in the inter-county championship so it does have to start until June, and all counties play their first match on the same weekend. It is played over the summer but in a shorter time period so their are more club games in the summer so no slop. Simple.

Pete_Cavan

DH2K9 wrote: »

Maybe not full-time professional but ill give you a few examples.

A Garda plays for Dublin at Croke Park, turns up goes home. Yet his mate who is also a Garda can earn potential ovetime at Croke Park. Is that fair?

Secondly if the GAA is a so called amateur organisation then it should be across the board. Why are these hierarchy people who turn up once a year at Congress get paid while the stars don't. The players should be getting their fair share.

What is the fascination in the provincial system it is out of date, I agree with the N, S, E, W system.

Also nobody cares about a clubs league, it is purely getting ready for championships. These championships should be straight knockout which would give ample time for expanded format and possible professionalism.

Can we put something in the forum charter that makes it an offense to suggest the GAA turn professional, punishable by flogging. Okay maybe thats going too far, Il settle for a ban from the site. There is absolutely no justification for the GAA going pro, unless you want to destroy it. Now lets not have any more of this nonsense.

Deise Tom

aDeener wrote: »

i bet you anything if that guard won an all ireland with dublin he would not trade it for any over time

Especially as a manager.

DH2K9

aDeener wrote: »

fuck sake do you not realise that club for many many people is way more important than county? countless interviews ive seen with players who have all-ireland medals rank wins with their clubs as their most cherished achievement.


anyone who even considers professionalism in the GAA is either completely deluded or does not have the best interests of the association at heart.

i bet you anything if that guard won an all ireland with dublin he would not trade it for any over time

First of all a guard would win no All-Ireland with Dublin!

Do you know how much effort these guys put in. What about a lad working in Dublin travelling to Galway four times a week for training. What help does he get from the GAA. 50 cent per litre max. At least increase their milage.

Maybe not play for pay but these players deserve something. They have to sacrifice a lot of time with their family so they can represent their county.

By the way I have never heard any club player who gave a **** about the league. These were all leading up to the championship. Nobody cares who wins Division 1 in a county it is all about the Championship. With this inter-county format you would only need to decrease amount of league games because at the end of the day these are played like challenge matches.

aDeener

DH2K9 wrote: »

First of all a guard would win no All-Ireland with Dublin!

Do you know how much effort these guys put in. What about a lad working in Dublin travelling to Galway four times a week for training. What help does he get from the GAA. 50 cent per litre max. At least increase their milage.

Maybe not play for pay but these players deserve something. They have to sacrifice a lot of time with their family so they can represent their county.

By the way I have never heard any club player who gave a **** about the league. These were all leading up to the championship. Nobody cares who wins Division 1 in a county it is all about the Championship. With this inter-county format you would only need to decrease amount of league games because at the end of the day these are played like challenge matches.

i do know how much they put in, club players put in just as much effort as county players but this is rarely ever recognised. gaa players are unbelievably well looked after, the gear, the physio expenses not to mention the one that cant be measured in monetary terms - the sheer joy of playing the game you love.

you would find a lot of players giving a shit about the league if you got rid of it or significantly reduced the number of games. thats what club players want - games!

what county are you in? most league matches ive been to are played with great intensity as like the national league its a stepping stone to championship and places are cemented here

DH2K9

All I'm saying is there is room for my system if you took away a couple of extra league games. I mean there used to be a time in Dublin when being in the first division meant you were an elite club. Nowadays there is to many teams in Division 1 so there isn't as much meaning to the games.

Going back to the format, at the end of the day, we want to see who is the best team in the country. This system will prove it like it has in the World Cup. It will give teams three championship games to prove themselves after playing their respective provincial championships and national leagues. Yes, you may get some dull, boring games and some low attendances but is that not the same as the current system.

The GAA needs to try something to inject new life into this great sport. This year Roscommon had to beat London and Leitrim and Limerick had to beat Waterford to make the last 12 of this years Championship while Meath had to go out and play Offaly, Laois(twice) and the Dubs. Is this fair? Can anybody justify this system. We want the best teams in the latter stages of the All-Ireland with maybe one or two fairytales so long as they have been merited. Are Limerick, Roscommon and to a certain extent Louth in the top 12 in the country? I'd say Limerick and Roscommon bottom 8 yet they find themselves in the last 12 with a shot at a Quarter-Final spot. If one of these teams get to a Quarter-Final the media will be saying it is great for football. Maybe it is but all they had to do was have one big win. The group stage will separate the men from the boys and if a Roscommon were to advance I would say fair play to them. There is to much emphasis nowadays on this out-dated system. Scrap it or use it as a seeding. Simple as.

As for the players being well looked after well that is just a load of bull. Maybe a club player does put a decent shift in at training but it is not inter-county. Ever heard of what a Clare player said about Ger Loughanne's training up a mountain one day. "If you saw a dog do that there would be a case for the ISPCA" While I admire a club player effort, determination in pride in representing their club, their parish, the place they grew up in is nothing compared to the average inter-county player. The club player can still have the few pints in the loacal while the inter-county player is on water. I represent my local team with dedication and a sense of emotion but I know that the inter-county player is in a gym during the winter and come the summer is still in that same gym despite the countless training sessions. Coming up to the championship the dubs were training six times a week! I mean come on what club side trains six times a week? What club trains 3 times week? None.

So these players deserve something a bit extra because they are the elite of our sport yet get as much help as the Division 12 club player. Is that fair?

aDeener

DH2K9 wrote: »

All I'm saying is there is room for my system if you took away a couple of extra league games. I mean there used to be a time in Dublin when being in the first division meant you were an elite club. Nowadays there is to many teams in Division 1 so there isn't as much meaning to the games.

Going back to the format, at the end of the day, we want to see who is the best team in the country. This system will prove it like it has in the World Cup. It will give teams three championship games to prove themselves after playing their respective provincial championships and national leagues. Yes, you may get some dull, boring games and some low attendances but is that not the same as the current system.

The GAA needs to try something to inject new life into this great sport. This year Roscommon had to beat London and Leitrim and Limerick had to beat Waterford to make the last 12 of this years Championship while Meath had to go out and play Offaly, Laois(twice) and the Dubs. Is this fair? Can anybody justify this system. We want the best teams in the latter stages of the All-Ireland with maybe one or two fairytales so long as they have been merited. Are Limerick, Roscommon and to a certain extent Louth in the top 12 in the country? I'd say Limerick and Roscommon bottom 8 yet they find themselves in the last 12 with a shot at a Quarter-Final spot. If one of these teams get to a Quarter-Final the media will be saying it is great for football. Maybe it is but all they had to do was have one big win. The group stage will separate the men from the boys and if a Roscommon were to advance I would say fair play to them. There is to much emphasis nowadays on this out-dated system. Scrap it or use it as a seeding. Simple as.

As for the players being well looked after well that is just a load of bull. Maybe a club player does put a decent shift in at training but it is not inter-county. Ever heard of what a Clare player said about Ger Loughanne's training up a mountain one day. "If you saw a dog do that there would be a case for the ISPCA" While I admire a club player effort, determination in pride in representing their club, their parish, the place they grew up in is nothing compared to the average inter-county player. The club player can still have the few pints in the loacal while the inter-county player is on water. I represent my local team with dedication and a sense of emotion but I know that the inter-county player is in a gym during the winter and come the summer is still in that same gym despite the countless training sessions. Coming up to the championship the dubs were training six times a week! I mean come on what club side trains six times a week? What club trains 3 times week? None.

So these players deserve something a bit extra because they are the elite of our sport yet get as much help as the Division 12 club player. Is that fair?

i practically agree with your new format proposal but i dont like the dismissive attitude towards club.

man i dont know what kind of club you are from but when it comes to preparing for championship they are off the beer. yes they drink during the league, but let me tell you something for nothing - so do the intercounty players!

club players do all the same - gym in the winter, what have ya as intercounty players, dont fool yourself. they are very bit as dedicated (possibly even more so in an attempt to improve fitness or strength to make the inter county panel) just not as talented with the ball.


what much more do you want? you say you are against pay for play but players are already receiving expenses, getting meals after trainings and matches, getting fruit. bars and energy drinks. physio treatments all paid for. all gear given to them. the dublin players last year got blackberry phones ffs. increasing what the get for their miles would be fair enough, but after that they are extremely well looked after

DH2K9

What do you think in just having this format for hurling and not football?

aDeener

DH2K9 wrote: »

What do you think in just having this format for hurling and not football?

hurling is very difficult to get right but i think the way it is structured at the moment - with ring, rackard and meagher cups is the right way as there are huge gaps in the quality between them and how they are ran is fine imo.

i have no idea to be honest how to best run off the liam mccarthy. football is much easier to format as nearly all counties are fairly competitive. take longford beating mayo for example - a 3rd from bottom division 4 team beating the no.2 team in div.1!! that could never happen in hurling. i understand and appreciate the brilliance of the munster championship but this probably is hindering a better format.

DH2K9

After the last 2 weekends, what does everybody feel now about this new format?

Magi11

If anyone has any notion of getting any of these off the floor, you need to be aware of the reality of GAA and that somethings are sacred. The provincial councils have a lot of power so every plan submitted will have to have Provincial Championships included. Also any idea will have to leave lots of time for the club.
Two more quick things; professionalism is a non starter and it's losing not loosing.