Luas Cross City (Line BX/D) [now open]

etchyed

spacetweek wrote: »

Express trams would hold off a few mins at launch in order to avoid catching up with the next one.

Luas being a turn-up-and-go style service, this sounds like nonsense. Unless there was a timetable, it would not work. You're saying a tram should be held at the terminus for 10 minutes rather than three so that it can skip stops when it eventually gets going? That just means that passengers would wait longer at a stop (potentially in rain or cold weather) for a fast tram instead of actually being on a slow one. It would add little value unless you were one of the lucky people who happened to show up just as a fast tram was departing.

Luas has on-street running and a high density of stops. It is not very fast. That's the nature of a system like it. It is not a complex rail system with multiple tracks that allows for different levels of service. Despite its lack of speed, it (for the most part) operates at capacity. Your hair-brained scheme would not only serve less people, it would serve the remainder less well. I don't know your posts well, spacetweek, but your username is familiar to me as a fairly frequent poster here and on C&T. I can't believe that you could post an idea as ridiculous as this.

strassenwo!f

spacetweek wrote: »

The Luas Red and Green lines constitute a north-south route and an east-west. The Strecktunnel (or whatever it's called in Munich) is west-east only and is more like a lot of similar routes sharing a central section (like Luas Heuston-Connolly). It's not the same thing at all.
The #1 reason why we can't have through services from Red-Green or vice versa is that it would be at the expense of frequency to the termini. If you have a tram every 5 mins to Connolly from Heuston but then require the 1st of every 3 services to turn north to Broombridge, the 2nd of every 3 to turn south to Sandyford, and the final 3rd of 3 to Connolly, then you've just divided the service frequency to Connolly by 3. Not great. I don't understand they big objection to getting off and transferring.

What I wish to illustrate to you is that, even with the pretty limited tram network which Dublin will still have even if the LUAS BXD line is built, there may be advantages to utilising the proposed connections between the lines for more than just getting trams between depots.

Let's use your example above, in which you have initially a tram every 5 minutes from Heuston to Connolly (I presume you mean Busaras, and thence to either Connolly or the Point).

When the link up is built, you could change this to a tram every 15 minutes from Heuston to Busaras (heading to either the Point or Connolly). The fall-off could be replaced by trams from Broombridge/Finglas to Busaras (and beyond) and from Sandyford/Cherrywood to Busaras (and beyond).

The corresponding fall-off on trams to Heuston (and beyond, i.e. Tallaght and Citywest) could be made up by trams running from Sandyford/Cherrywood to Heuston (and beyond) and Broombridge/Finglas to Heuston (and beyond).

Assuming that trams would travel back to the location from whence they came, and assuming that there was also a direct tram every 15 minutes between Broombridge/Finglas and Sandyford/Cherrywood, this would give a 5 minute frequency along both of Dublin's core tram routes.

The current Abbey St. stop would, as far as I can see, indeed see a lower frequency (down to about one tram every 7.5 minutes in each direction). But the proposed layout of single line traffic for the BXD line along O'Connell St. and Marlborough St. might facilitate this overall arrangement, as the connections between the lines would not be as complex as if it were all to happen at one location.

I'm not suggesting that this should happen, but I am suggesting that passenger demand in the future may indicate that there is demand along certain routes for a direct service. I am trying to ascertain why a link-up of services between the red and green lines has apparently been ruled out.

Aard

With that setup, it would still take longer to wait for the appropriate tram than to just make a quick transfer at Abbey St. If you're taking 5 minute frequencies, then the transfer would be an average 2.5 minutes. Compare this to having to wait 5 or 10 minutes extra for the right tram. I'd take a definite low transfer time over a random wait.

monument

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Really, clear demarcation should not be difficult in this day and age. It might represent a problem the first time one uses the service, but after that it's hard to think that people wouldn't learn pretty fast.

The current easy of use of Luas is one of many important reasons why so many prefer using it over buses.

AngryLips

strassenwo!f wrote: »

What I wish to illustrate to you is that, even with the pretty limited tram network which Dublin will still have even if the LUAS BXD line is built, there may be advantages to utilising the proposed connections between the lines for more than just getting trams between depots.

Let's use your example above, in which you have initially a tram every 5 minutes from Heuston to Connolly (I presume you mean Busaras, and thence to either Connolly or the Point).

When the link up is built, you could change this to a tram every 15 minutes from Heuston to Busaras (heading to either the Point or Connolly). The fall-off could be replaced by trams from Broombridge/Finglas to Busaras (and beyond) and from Sandyford/Cherrywood to Busaras (and beyond).

The corresponding fall-off on trams to Heuston (and beyond, i.e. Tallaght and Citywest) could be made up by trams running from Sandyford/Cherrywood to Heuston (and beyond) and Broombridge/Finglas to Heuston (and beyond).

Assuming that trams would travel back to the location from whence they came, and assuming that there was also a direct tram every 15 minutes between Broombridge/Finglas and Sandyford/Cherrywood, this would give a 5 minute frequency along both of Dublin's core tram routes.

The current Abbey St. stop would, as far as I can see, indeed see a lower frequency (down to about one tram every 7.5 minutes in each direction). But the proposed layout of single line traffic for the BXD line along O'Connell St. and Marlborough St. might facilitate this overall arrangement, as the connections between the lines would not be as complex as if it were all to happen at one location.

I'm not suggesting that this should happen, but I am suggesting that passenger demand in the future may indicate that there is demand along certain routes for a direct service. I am trying to ascertain why a link-up of services between the red and green lines has apparently been ruled out.

Doesn't the reduced frequencies to all destinations result in more people interchanging at Abbey/O'Connell Street than would otherwise be the case with the current proposals?

strassenwo!f

AngryLips wrote: »

Doesn't the reduced frequencies to all destinations result in more people interchanging at Abbey/O'Connell Street than would otherwise be the case with the current proposals?

I'm not sure I get you. Each destination (apart from Abbey St., I think) would have the same frequency of service, but the services would be coming from a greater number of origins.

Neworder79

Kenny has just said new Luas line is included in new Capital Spending Plan:

http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/category/news-room/live-video/

dubhthach

If you ask me this is a sop to make up for not proceeding with Metro North and Dart Underground. Given that DIT:Grangegorman is also on the "casualty list" that's alot of potential ridership on BXD gone.

markpb

dubhthach wrote: »

If you ask me this is a sop to make up for not proceeding with Metro North and Dart Underground. Given that DIT:Grangegorman is also on the "casualty list" that's alot of potential ridership on BXD gone.

I think Luas BX will still be successful enough. I don't think it will revolutionise transport in Dublin but it will make it more attractive as the Luas lines become a network. I agree with you about D though: a falling and ageing population and no major trip generators mean it probably won't be as successful as the other two. In the future maybe, if Grangegorman takes off the transport will be there for it.

Now that it's the only game in town, how far along is the project? The page on the RPA site is a little confusing:

The Railway Procurement Agency (RPA), on 24th June 2010, applied to An Bord Pleanala for a Railway Order for Luas Broombridge [...] An Oral Hearing in relation to this application was held between May 18th, 2011 and June 1st, 2011. [...] Opportunities were available for members of the public or any interested party to make a submission to An Bord Pleanála in relation to the proposed development of this new Luas alignment.

After considering any submissions on the application, An Bord Pleanála will hold an oral hearing on the Railway Order application. Thereafter, An Bord Pleanála will consider all of the issues presented and make a decision on the granting of the Railway Order to RPA.

Sponge Bob

BX to construction 2015 they said.

bk

markpb wrote: »

Now that it's the only game in town, how far along is the project?

According to the government report published today, construction is expected to begin in 2015!!

AngryLips

bk wrote: »

According to the government report published today, construction is expected to begin in 2015!!

Sure anything could happen before then!

Judgement Day

I can hardly wait, more delays and incidents with traffic a la Red Line, more potential for druggies/beggars etc from O'Connell Street/Abbey Street/Marlboro Street to easily access the St.Stephen's Green area and, at the end of the day, pointless. All the media people I've ever heard jump on the join-it-up bandwagon but ask them why.....anyway with the way the Euro is going even this scaled down investment plan will probably never see the light of day.

Despite this rant I still love trams and have been in favour of the development of a tram system for Dublin before many posters here were on solid food. http://irishrailways.blogspot.com/2011/11/despite-hating-luas-bxd-line-i-love.html

markpb

AngryLips wrote: »

Sure anything could happen before then!

Or more likely, nothing.

Judgement Day wrote: »

I can hardly wait, more delays and incidents with traffic a la Red Line, more potential for druggies/beggars etc from O'Connell Street/Abbey Street/Marlboro Street to easily access the St.Stephen's Green area

Why is the red line so popular if it's as bad as you describe? There are druggies and beggars in the city centre anyway and there are druggies on various Dublin Bus routes. And don't get me started on the "easy access to St. Stephens Green" - that's a daft criticism at best.

AngryLips

Judgement Day wrote: »

I can hardly wait, more delays and incidents with traffic a la Red Line, more potential for druggies/beggars etc from O'Connell Street/Abbey Street/Marlboro Street to easily access the St.Stephen's Green area and, at the end of the day, pointless. All the media people I've ever heard jump on the join-it-up bandwagon but ask them why.....anyway with the way the Euro is going even this scaled down investment plan will probably never see the light of day.

Exactly the type of attitude that resulted in two disconnected Luas lines to begin with.

Heroditas

AngryLips wrote: »

Exactly the type of attitude that resulted in two disconnected Luas lines to begin with.

Exactly. Let's just give in to the scumbags and junkies and let their behaviour dictate the way the city should be run.

Irish and Proud

Sponge Bob wrote: »

BX to construction 2015 they said.

That seems very late - I would have expected this to be getting underway by around 2013 at the latest - AFAIK, the track layout and stop design is done along the entire BXD route. However, at least it's going ahead!

DWCommuter

2015 before it starts construction. LOL!!!

More "put it on the long finger and hope it happens or is forgotten about" crap talk. Its a mere token gesture in light of not having the money and gumption to make things happen.

I doubt this will be built either.

Judgement Day

AngryLips wrote: »

Exactly the type of attitude that resulted in two disconnected Luas lines to begin with.

I'll think you find a lot of the reasoning behind the non-connection of the Luas lines can be attributed to Dr.Garrett Fitzgerald, Mary O'Rourke and vested business interests who didn't want their commercial enterprises to suffer during construction. The fact remains that linking the Green Line to the DART would be a much better use of whatever few quid is left.

AngryLips

Irish and Proud wrote: »

That seems very late - I would have expected this to be getting underway by around 2013 at the latest - AFAIK, the track layout and stop design is done along the entire BXD route. However, at least it's going ahead!

It's just the railway order that's outstanding. What's the issue?

Heroditas

AngryLips wrote: »

It's just the railway order that's outstanding. What's the issue?

Have a listen to Joe Duffy right now and you'll get a good idea!

Judgement Day

Joe 'Different size tracks'...........and the 46a was 10 minutes late last Wednesday week......................:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Judgement Day wrote: »

I'll think you find a lot of the reasoning behind the non-connection of the Luas lines can be attributed to Dr.Garrett Fitzgerald, Mary O'Rourke and vested business interests who didn't want their commercial enterprises to suffer during construction. The fact remains that linking the Green Line to the DART would be a much better use of whatever few quid is left.

Tom Coffey from City Centre Business Association on Joe Duffy now 'railing' against Metro North and Luas connector - I rest my case.

trellheim

The worst possible project was chosen. BXD will be a complete nightmare, causing utter chaos in the city for years to little gain. Metro North would be the better project for those who want to "interchange" ,a serious ROI (not as good as the Interconnector though )

1huge1

trellheim wrote: »

The worst possible project was chosen. BXD will be a complete nightmare, causing utter chaos in the city for years to little gain. Metro North would be the better project for those who want to "interchange" ,a serious ROI (not as good as the Interconnector though )

I don't think anyone will argue with you about the metro north not being a better use of money, but the fact is we don't have the kind of money available to build such a piece of infrastructure.

Luas BXD will no doubt be worthwhile when completed.

D.L.R.

Jaysus, Ireland is becoming a caricature of itself at this stage. All we can hope for now is a Franco-German invasion.

trellheim

Luas BXD will no doubt be worthwhile when completed.

It's a complete vanity project. The core of BX is cheerfully served by the hundreds of buses that lash up and down Nassau St, College Green and OCS daily.


Let's not forget folks we are stuffing overhead lines and poles on OCS and Marlboro St ( where will the buses go ? ... both are absolutely key corridors )

when a perfectly good plan (MN) that tunnels underground to get more or less the same result with separation of modes, is deferred.

Give the money to cycle lanes and proper integrated ticketing and that'd be a much better use of the cash.

LXFlyer

Plus the bus stops on Grafton Street, O'Connell Street (Easons), Marlborough Street, Hawkins Street and College Street are all shown on the EIS as having to be "relocated".

Relocated where I have to ask?

Zebra3

Judgement Day wrote: »

more potential for druggies/beggars etc from O'Connell Street/Abbey Street/Marlboro Street to easily access the St.Stephen's Green area

Like something out of the Ross O'Carroll-Kelly books complaining about poor people having access to the southside. Let's tear down the Loopline bridge asap!!!!!!

Sweet jaysus. :rolleyes:

Judgement Day

Listening to Varadkar on various programmes this evening and he was, as I suspected he would, laying the groundwork for abandoning "BXD" and other projects if the financial situation doesn't improve - in other words it's already dead in the water.