Sinn Fein

BlaasForRafa

T.W.H Byron wrote: »

You could apply all of the to Fianna Fail up until the mid-ninties. "We must tighten our belts" etc etc.

I can't stand Fianna Fail but offhand I can't recall any in the last couple of decades actually jailed for importing illegal arms (Haughey, Blaney et al never did time)

Until a new generation replaces the old guard like Ferris, Sinn Fein will find it hard to be seen as an acceptable party in government.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Martin Ferris alone fulfills most of it.

Involvement with killers of our national legitimate police force:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0805/breaking14.html

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement".

prinz wrote: »

Murder and scumbaggery:
http://irishelectionliterature.wordpress.com/2010/02/03/esther-uzell-justice-for-joe-rafferty-dublin-south-east-2007/

Do you ever investigate anything before posting, or do you just google "sinn fein evil IRA killers" and post the first blog that comes back?

That death had nothing to do with Sinn Féin, nor was it even political. It was a petty dispute between an alleged former IRA member, and the lad in question - Joe Rafferty. Infact, Daithi Doolin (a SF councillor) tried to intervene on behalf of Rafferty to smooth things over.

His death was made into a political issue, when it was anything but a political issue. It was a spat between two people, one of which just so happened to be an alleged former IRA member. The IMC found that Rafferty's murder was not authorised by the IRA. Infact, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Féin. If we were to associate the death of every single person in this country by the political party that they support - the Government would collapse. But don't let that get in the way of a good spin.

prinz wrote: »

Intimidation:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/killer-gang-link-to-attack-on-candidate-1756659.html

Ah yes, the Independant. Sure, they'd never print anything to besmirch the name of Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with that murder, so it's irrelevant to Sinn Féin as a party.

You're going to have to try harder.

Nehaxak

Reading through this whole thread, in fairness, it's those posting in support/defense of SF that come out as the most intelligent, most eloquent and most refined in their replies.

Just to point out also, "rabble rabble IRA blah blah blah" no longer cuts it as a rubuke to anything mentioned in relation to SF - if you could step back and move away from that old, lazy rebuttal and actually formulate intelligent discussion around and against their policies - it might help your case a little better when arguing against.

gleep

I know this will be scoffed at but........

Would the Gerry Adams/ Martin McGuinness bashers on here consider Nelson Mandela a terrorist who has no place in politics and should not be voted for?

The reason I ask is because he admitted to leading a paramilitary group in
South Africa.This group were formed after peaceful protests by the oppressed people of SA, demanding their basic human rights, were viciously put down by the Apartheid government. It was clear that non-violence protest would not bring about change.
Mandela admitted that his MK group carried out bombings and shootings that killed civilians.
He also played a major part in the peace process that ended the violence and resulted in a fairer society and the abolition of the oppressive government.

Sound familiar?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement"....

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers? Again nice brush over his own criminal past.

dlofnep wrote: »

That death had nothing to do with Sinn Féin, nor was it even political. It was a petty dispute between an alleged former IRA member, and the lad in question - Joe Rafferty. Infact, Daithi Doolin (a SF councillor) tried to intervene on behalf of Rafferty to smooth things over...

Ah yes, is this the man who gave a guarantee IIRC that no harm would come to Joe? How did he manage that? You seem to refuse to acknowledge that those known to have been involved are also SF members.

dlofnep wrote: »

His death was made into a political issue, when it was anything but a political issue. It was a spat between two people, one of which just so happened to be an alleged former IRA member. The IMC found that Rafferty's murder was not authorised by the IRA. Infact, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sinn Féin..

SF had involvement before the murder and after the murder. The IMC also found that SF did nothing to prevent it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Ah yes, the Independant. Sure, they'd never print anything to besmirch the name of Sinn Féin. Sinn Féin had nothing to do with that murder, so it's irrelevant to Sinn Féin as a party. You're going to have to try harder.

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? Sure I thought SF were well in with community groups and sorting out anti social behaviour? When it's on their own doorstep what happens?

btw I don't have to 'try' anything.

Nodin

Pauleta wrote: »

. I hate them now because of their crazed far left agenda.

That hysteria thing again.

prinz wrote:

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? .

You've proof of that?

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers?

They certainly do.

prinz wrote: »

Ah yes, is this the man who gave a guarantee IIRC that no harm would come to Joe?

Daithi Doolin doesn't have control over everyone in Dublin. He put in a word, but ultimately it wasn't enough.

prinz wrote: »

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that those known to have been involved are also SF members.

I don't refuse to acknowledge anything. The person who killed him may or may not have been a member or former member of Sinn Féin. You missed my point completely that it wasn't a political murder. It was a spat between two people. Sinn Féin bears no responsibility for the killing.

prinz wrote: »

SF had involvement before the murder and after the murder.

No they did not. What involvement did Sinn Féin as a party have? And why didn't the sister or the lad in question ever go to the Gardaí?

prinz wrote: »

The IMC also found that SF did nothing to prevent it.

Sinn Féin had no control over the person involved. Since when are Sinn Féin the Gardaí? Didn't you make a comment early about "legitimate police force"? But now you're asking Sinn Féin to police every street hood in Dublin?

prinz wrote: »

A known SF member? The same people who later go around intimidating a women who dares stand against them in elections? Sure I thought SF were well in with community groups and sorting out anti social behaviour? When it's on their own doorstep what happens?

Once again - What has this to do with Sinn Féin as a party? It is the actions of an individual person, acting on their own individual standing. It was not authorised by the IRA, nor was it a political murder by Sinn Féin. Not that it matters, but I assume you have proof that he was a member of Sinn Féin. (Not that SF is to be held accountable for every single one of it's thousands activists across Ireland).

prinz wrote: »

btw I don't have to 'try' anything.

Oh believe me, you do. Your tantrums & hyperbole are getting you nowhere.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

They certainly do.

Care to provide a source for any other member of our parliament waiting outside a prison to collect prisoners?

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin had no control over the person involved. Since when are Sinn Féin the Gardaí? Didn't you make a comment early about "legitimate police force"? But now you're asking Sinn Féin to police every street hood in Dublin?

They should have cooperated with the gardaí. They didn't. Despite tears and calls for anyone to give information... none was forthcoming. Odd.

dlofnep wrote: »

Oh believe me, you do. Your tantrums & hyperbole are getting you nowhere.

:pac: The difference is I don't really care who agrees with me. I am giving opinion why I will never vote SF. It's not a popularity contest. Perhaps I should set up a group and get my online buddies to thank my posts though, maybe that will work.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

You've proof of that?

Has anyone been convicted? You want to hide behind that go ahead.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

So he met with them upon their release to discuss the peace process? Hardly constitutes as "involvement".

Where did you get that idea from ?

And what other TDs meet with murderers on their release to discuss issues related to law & order and political policies ?

SF repeatedly claim that it wasn't anything to do with them or the IRA (thereby implying that the ceasefire was upheld), and yet still claim that these thugs qualified under the GFA.

Yet again, they want it both ways.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Has anyone been convicted? You want to hide behind that go ahead.

Hide behind the fact that no-one knows who did what.....yes, I think I will.

A number of cars have been damaged out the front of my house. Damage has included windscreens and side windows put in, wing mirrors kicked off, paint being "keyed", contents stolen, and an attempt to bend the door open from the top. Oddly enough, it being Dublin, I don't connect it with my political views. Neither do neighbours, ranging from FF to FG, who've had similar over the years.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Care to provide a source for any other member of our parliament waiting outside a prison to collect prisoners?

That's not what you stated. Don't change your wording now.

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers?

This man has more blood on his hands that the IRA ever had.

prinz wrote: »

They should have cooperated with the gardaí. They didn't. Despite tears and calls for anyone to give information... none was forthcoming. Odd.

They did co-operate with the Gardaí. SF probably knew just as much as that lad's sister - the possible suspect's name, and beyond that - nothing more. So what exactly was it that they were not co-operating on? Provide a Gardaí statement that might indicate such matters, rather than citing an article from a hyperbolic partisan hack of a paper like the Independent.

prinz wrote: »

:pac: The difference is I don't really care who agrees with me. I am giving opinion why I will never vote SF. It's not a popularity contest. Perhaps I should set up a group and get my online buddies to thank my posts though, maybe that will work.

Nobody asks anybody to thank their posts. There's a conspiracy forum for such topics. I'm not asking if you care or not whether people agree with you. In truth, I have no problem whether you vote for Sinn Féin or not. I do however have a problem with your disgusting use of the death of an innocent man to propagate your anti-Sinn Féin rhetoric. Especially when Sinn Féin had absolutely nothing to do with the attack.

dlofnep

Liam Byrne wrote: »

And what other TDs meet with murderers on their release to discuss issues related to law & order and political policies ?

No other TD's were in a position that Sinn Féin TD's are in to uphold the peace process. Just like Nelson Mandela was in a position to uphold peace due to his leverage over the UWS. What an absurd question.

Liam Byrne wrote: »

SF repeatedly claim that it wasn't anything to do with them or the IRA (thereby implying that the ceasefire was upheld), and yet still claim that these thugs qualified under the GFA.

There is no implication. The IRA was on a cease-fire. That is fact. The bank robbery was not authorised, and it was wrong.

"The releases were conditional on the IRA decommissioning and an end of paramilitarism. Sinn Fein have made it clear that they are unable to convince the IRA leadership to take the necessary steps without the Castlerea prisoners situation being resolved." Bertie Ahern's words, not mine.

It was necessary for the peace process to move forward. Remember, there was only so much leverage a group of politicians had or can have over an armed paramilitary group. Certain concessions had to be made, whether I or you like them or not.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

The difference is I don't really care who agrees with me. I am giving opinion why I will never vote SF. It's not a popularity contest. Perhaps I should set up a group and get my online buddies to thank my posts though, maybe that will work.

.....theres no agreement between people to thank posts. If you think there is, then post a complaint in the appropriate forum.

Liam Byrne

dlofnep wrote: »

There is no implication. The IRA was on a cease-fire. That is fact. The bank robbery was not authorised, and it was wrong.

"The releases were conditional on the IRA decommissioning and an end of paramilitarism. Sinn Fein have made it clear that they are unable to convince the IRA leadership to take the necessary steps without the Castlerea prisoners situation being resolved." Bertie Ahern's words, not mine.

Tough.

They didn't qualify, therefore SF should not be claiming that they did. The IRA can claim all they want, because they're wrong. SF should not damage their own credibility by claiming that these individuals were entitled to release.

And that is what they claim. They did not claim "the IRA thinks they're entitled", they - SF - claimed that they were entitled.

As for what Ahern's words are.....well, we all know the level of credibility that little rat has.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

That's not what you stated. Don't change your wording now. This man has more blood on his hands that the IRA ever had.

Laughable. How much time has George Bush spent in prison for killing Irish citizens?

dlofnep wrote: »

Nobody asks anybody to thank their posts. There's a conspiracy forum for such topics.

Oh really.... interesting membership there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=556

dlofnep wrote: »

I do however have a problem with your disgusting use of the death of an innocent man to propagate your anti-Sinn Féin rhetoric..

A bit like the disgusting use of the deaths of innocent people on Bloody Sunday to sprea anti-British Army rhetoric... oh no wait, that's ok.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

A bit like the disgusting use of the deaths of innocent people on Bloody Sunday to sprea anti-British Army rhetoric... oh no wait, that's ok.

...more venom and blather....?

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Laughable. How much time has George Bush spent in prison for killing Irish citizens?

He hasn't killed Irish citizens. You are changing your words yet again. You stated.

Do members of our national parliament make a habit of meeting and greeting killers?

And yes, for the third time - they do.

prinz wrote: »

Oh really.... interesting membership there.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=556

I haven't had a look at that group in months. We have a new Republican forum for where we discuss Republican topics. If someone posted on that group asking for thanks, they were falling on deaf ears because I doubt anyone visits it considering the last post I made on there was posting a link to our new forum.

You found one post asking for thanks, by a pretty much lurking poster - and all of a sudden, you believe that there is a secret agreement between us all to thank posts. If you think that there is a pact, report it to moderation. But you're bordering conspiracy theory stuff at this point.

prinz wrote: »

A bit like the disgusting use of the deaths of innocent people on Bloody Sunday to sprea anti-British Army rhetoric... oh no wait, that's ok.

Where did I use the deaths of Bloody Sunday to spread anti-British army rhetoric? Believe me - I don't need to use Bloody Sunday to put the British Army in a bad light. They do all that on their own.

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

He hasn't killed Irish citizens. You are changing your words yet again. You stated.And yes, for the third time - they do..

You know exactly what was meant. Rather telling that you have to go as far as George Bush to try and counter Ferris meeting garda killers though.

dlofnep wrote: »

Where did I use the deaths of Bloody Sunday to spread anti-British army rhetoric? Believe me - I don't need to use Bloody Sunday to put the British Army in a bad light. They do all that on their own.

I believe I have yet to see you describe the use of the innocent victims of Bloody Sunday to rabble rouse as disgusting.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

I believe I have yet to see you describe the use of the innocent victims of Bloody Sunday to rabble rouse as disgusting.

I believe you failed to remark upon the deaths of children in custody of the HSE. Obviously whoever is thinking of the children, its not you.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

You know exactly what was meant. Rather telling that you have to go as far as George Bush to try and counter Ferris meeting garda killers though.

Say what you mean, instead of what you should have meant and we won't have this problem in future.

prinz wrote: »

I believe I have yet to see you describe the use of the innocent victims of Bloody Sunday to rabble rouse as disgusting.

Bloody Sunday was a political event, and as such is used in political discussion. It was an army which murdered civilians, and then whitewashed by a political Government. The death of Rafferty was not a political issue. Therefore - it is impossible to discuss the events of Bloody Sunday outside of a political or social context. The murder of Joe Rafferty however was not politically motivated, so it is wrong to make it a political issue - which is what you were doing.

That is why your use of his murder was disgusting.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

I believe you failed to remark upon the deaths of children in custody of the HSE. Obviously whoever is thinking of the children, its not you.

That may have worked if I was one of the main contributors to a thread dedicated to the deaths of children in the custody of the HSE.

IrishTonyO

Nodin wrote: »

I believe you failed to remark upon the deaths of children in custody of the HSE. Obviously whoever is thinking of the children, its not you.

what the hell has that got to do with anything being discussed here??

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

The murder of Joe Rafferty however was not politically motivated, so it is wrong to make it a political issue - which is what you were doing. That is why your use of his murder was disgusting.

The aren't many people who have a private army to fall back on to be fair. So yes it is very much a political issue. Particularly so when his sister was targetted again for daring to run for public office, unless of course that's just another huge coincidence.

Nodin

IrishTonyO wrote: »

what the hell has that got to do with anything being discussed here??

He's using the alleged lack of a statement to posit that a poster holds a certain view. By that "logic" a failure to make a statement on any issue would allow one to extrapolate a persons views.

Nodin

prinz wrote: »

Particularly so when his sister was targetted again for daring to run for public office, .........

You've failed to show that such was the case.

IrishTonyO

Nodin wrote: »

He's using the alleged lack of a statement to posit that a poster holds a certain view. By that "logic" a failure to make a statement on any issue would allow one to extrapolate a persons views.

Logic does not come into your post I am afraid, it was completely off topic, I know that you are aware of the charter of this forum.

Nodin

IrishTonyO wrote: »

Logic does not come into your post I am afraid, it was completely off topic, I know that you are aware of the charter of this forum.

Report the post, if you have a problem.

prinz

Nodin wrote: »

You've failed to show that such was the case.

Last week in Dublin South-East a young mother, Esther Uzell, whose brother Joseph Rafferty was killed a number of years ago, declared that she would run as an Independent candidate in the local authority elections. Only three nights ago, her car was smashed to bits at 1.30
a.m. by five hooded people. They destroyed her car, shouted abuse at her apartment and called for her and her husband to come out. This was an act of serious intimidation by thugs, for whom scum is the more accurate description.

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/Xml/30/DAL20090527.PDF Deputy Chris Andrews.

If you are going to claim the two incidents are unrelated then this is turning into a farce. Her campaign against SF in the area is widely known. The thugs thought responsible for the above acts are also known to have SF connections.

sceptre

OK, from the top (please take note)

This thread is a mess.

This thread has far too much lowish-level personalisation and very little mutual respect for other forum members at times. As always, I don't care if you like or disagree with the views of the other guy, you're expected to show reasonable respect for them, if not their views.

There's a chunk of inane comparisons going on here that add nothing to the universe. I'll highlight the GW Bush comparison as completely wacky but there are others. Kindly knock that on the head immediately.

With the latter in mind, if you guys could rediscover the concept of on-topic that'd be good. That's a hope. Rediscover the concept of on-topic and follow it. That's an instruction.

The topic and what it means is nicely explained in the opening post, written by someone who was good enough to explain what they were asking, why they were asking it and quite reasonably setting the parameters of the discussion. If you can't follow that then you've no place contributing to the topic. If you can't follow that, then just don't contribute to the topic as you're making the universe worth just a little bit less.

I'm going to assume you've all read this post when you choose to make another one on this thread.

/mod

Aside, I don't particularly pay any attention to the amount of thanks a post gets, especially on this forum - it's little more than a general indicator of encouragement for the person writing a post and doesn't indicate a groundswell of anything for anyone else. But asking for "a bit of Irish [or whatever] support, would you please thank post..." is firmly in the idiot clown category (as it doesn't particularly indicate even a general indicator of anything for the post-writer). If you're going to do that, please consider whether you should be allowed outside on your own, as you probably shouldn't.