After Kenny is gone

Liam Byrne

Laminations wrote: »

The question is 'if you currently wouldn't vote for FG (which rules out people like me,Liam Byrne, jmayo etc), would you be likely to vote for them if Kenny stood aside. If the No's greatly outweigh the Yes's (i.e. If his detractors still wouldn't vote for FG) then Kenny shouldn't stand aside but if it's the opposite and he truly is a significant stumbling block for voters then FG need to have a serious internal debate

I can see exactly where you're coming from, Laminations, but it did trigger another thought in my head.

If Kenny and FG are adamant that they are "right" (as distinct from just being "less wrong than FF") then surely abandoning Kenny just because enough of the electorate are happy to condone corruption and less firm convictions would be a sell-out, and thereby possibly lose some of the existing support ?

Basically, I've no interest in an X-factor popularity contest.....I want an actual fair, ethical and organisationally-sound leader who can motivate people, even if his strong point isn't soundbytes and ducking schoolboy bully tactics.

Just a thought (because yes, practicalities do come into the equation too), but it struck me as I at first nodded in agreement and then went "hang on a sec...."

T runner

jmayo wrote: »

The thing I always find amusing is that when the shi** is once again hitting the fan in ff HQ, there are as many questions being asked about Kenny's leadership as there are about biffos' leadership.

Yesterday three iminent economists/financial experts came out and basically stated that the current leader of the government and the majority party, whilst minister of finance, allowed the banking system operate in a manner which has led to it becoming basically insolvent and having to be bailed out by the taxpayers to the tune of possibly 100 billion.
That is not even mentioning him fanning the flames of the property bubble.

Yet we have a couple of threads questioning the leader of the primary opposition party and his second in command the finance spokesman.

Unfreaking believable.
Just goes to show the real power of ff spin doctors and media hacks.

Yes thats it. Clearly FF spin doctors at work.

The oppositions performance can be scrutinised as well as the Governments.
Its fair.

Im sure youll blame Sligo's hammering of Mayo last Friday on FF spin doctors also?

jmayo

T runner wrote: »

Yes thats it. Clearly FF spin doctors at work.

The oppositions performance can be scrutinised as well as the Governments.
Its fair.

Im sure youll blame Sligo's hammering of Mayo last Friday on FF spin doctors also?

You can scrutinise the oposition's performance all you want, but so far they have not cost the taxpayers, both present and future, of this country millions nevermind billions.

Who was in government and who is in government ?

The opposition have not been in charge of the dept of finance and no matter how you try and spin it the man who was in charge of that dept during the worse excesses, most construction related tax incentives, highest increases in public sector spending and most inept regulation is now the leader of ff and the government.


Mayo lost to Sligo because they were sh**e, simple fact.
And fair dues to Sligo.

stumpypeeps

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Liam Byrne

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe.

You claim that Kenny has been bad in the media, and simultaneously claim that you get a sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowen, despite their many, many appearances in the media lying through their teeth and mentioning Lehman Bros at every opportunity ?

maynooth_rules

Why is this being made such an issue of. TV3 spent 5 minutes talking about the leadership of FG, and not a thing about the fact that the leader of this country is supported at the moment by 18 in every 100 people, and his party is supported by 17 in every 100 people. FF are almost getting away with these beyond bad figures and it is somehow the figures of one of the opposition parties, who some argue are not as high as they should be that somehow has become the news story of this poll

maynooth_rules

stumpypeeps wrote: »

I'm a floating voter by and large, from my perspective, I will not back FG on the basis of the calamitous leadership offered from Kenny. I am sure as a party operator he's exemplery, however, his performance in the media clearly highlights the potential for disaster should he be made leader.

As horrible as FF in general have been, I get a clearer sense of competency from Lenihan and Cowan. Bruton is ok, but Kenny is worrying. Just from my perspective.

Competency from Cowen!!!! I am sorry now but you are talking complete and utter rubbish if you somehow get a vibe of competency from him

Laminations

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Why is this being made such an issue of. TV3 spent 5 minutes talking about the leadership of FG, and not a thing about the fact that the leader of this country is supported at the moment by 18 in every 100 people, and his party is supported by 17 in every 100 people. FF are almost getting away with these beyond bad figures and it is somehow the figures of one of the opposition parties, who some argue are not as high as they should be that somehow has become the news story of this poll

You are right, the media should be breathing down the governments neck. I don't want to get hung up on FG, I'm simply trying to prove a point - the people complaining about Kenny would never vote for FG anyway. They are the type of people who think FF is competent, and are using Kenny as a distraction from the governments failings.

Irlandese

irishh_bob wrote: »

bruton has a genuine understanding of policy where as kenny is just another populist politician who would rely on civil servants or handlers to feed him , neither are my choice for leader ( leo varadkar is the man ) but at least bruton can be taken seriously when discussing serious matters

Varadkar is as much up to his neck in the bankers/builders trough as the average FF
cannon fodder. What we need are rules like the one once (still?) applied by the green party in Germany, with any politician sitting just once in any political seat. They rotated all cxandidates to avoid corruption. Jesus, what a change that would have made in Ireland.
It still could..................

bored and fussy

I believe enda kenny is a very bad leader, just listen, listen to him always complaining and blaming, everyday it is something or other no question of national interest or anything like that, no, he just wants to get into power. The sickening thing is he would have done the same as FF had he been in power over the last few years, and to make matters worse he would do the same as FF are doing now if he got into power.
I could not bring myself to vote for this man and if anyone is in any doubt about his lack of sincerety just listen to him on the confidence motion next week, me thinks he should look in the mirror. I think Bruton should strike while the iron is hot. But on the other hand Inda kenny is the best thing that FF has going for them.

Liam Byrne

bored and fussy wrote: »

I believe enda kenny is a very bad leader, just listen, listen to him always complaining and blaming, everyday it is something or other no question of national interest or anything like that, no, he just wants to get into power.

Sorry ? Complaining and blaming FF for refusing to hold by-elections and refusing to discuss the reports is somehow not "in the national interest" ?

News to me

bored and fussy wrote: »

The sickening thing is he would have done the same as FF had he been in power over the last few years, and to make matters worse he would do the same as FF are doing now if he got into power.

The sickening thing is that we'll never know what he would have done.

bored and fussy wrote: »

I could not bring myself to vote for this man

So can we ask what "man" you could bring yourself to vote for ?

bored and fussy

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Sorry ? Complaining and blaming FF for refusing to hold by-elections and refusing to discuss the reports is somehow not "in the national interest" ?

News to me



The sickening thing is that we'll never know what he would have done.



So can we ask what "man" you could bring yourself to vote for ?

Do you know something i will probably vote independent, and it goes against the grain to have a motley crew of party half party and independents as we have now. But please not Enda Kenny

bored and fussy

Yes we do, we know exactly what he would have done and what he would do if the electorate were silly enough to believe him. take the expenses debacle just last week we had them all at it again and who but James Reilly up to his tonsils and unavailable for comment, and did Enda Kenny complain about that?
No he did not. No difference. he would be exactly the same only worse for his arrogance.

nacho libre

Laminations wrote: »

You are right, the media should be breathing down the governments neck. I don't want to get hung up on FG, I'm simply trying to prove a point - the people complaining about Kenny would never vote for FG anyway. They are the type of people who think FF is competent, and are using Kenny as a distraction from the governments failings.

I don't mean to be harsh as Kenny seems to be a genuine guy, and as has been said is a great organiser, but he regularly shoots himself in the foot with his public utterances without the FF spin machine having to do anything. so rather than spin doctors shaping/manfacturing the perception of him they are captialising on the public's perception of him.
I definitely think there is quite a few people who would vote for FG if Enda Kenny was replaced. Of course there are some ff loyalists using deflection tactics to take the focus off Cowen, but again if Kenny was a better performer this wouldn't work.

91011

The main reason both FG & Kenny just can't get acceptance from the public is that they simply do not off an alternative.

Name 5 FG politicians that you could see as Taosaich / Tanaiste or even as a senior minister?

Kenny - no, Bruton - possibly, Varadka - NO (he gets Sooo many facts wrong that his mouth is oversized due to number of times he's got his fott stuck in it), Hayes - nice guy, but no presence, coveney - possibly, but unheard from recently. Michael ring - possibly. Lucinda creiton - possibly Haven't heard from any others recently.

Do the same for labour. Gilmore - yes, Tommy Broughan - possibly, roisin shorthall - possibly, ivan bacik (assuming she's elected - yes, alex white - if elected, ruari quinn - yes, joan burton - annoying, but yes, michael d - of course, pat rabitte, jan o sullivan, willie penrose - all good too. Then yoiu also have liz mc manus & brendan howlin.


Basically most sitting labour TD's would be suitable for office, are well known and have ability to govern. - The advantage they have is they are allowed to speak to the press, they're articulate and they have the confidence of the person in the street.

Unfortunately for FG, they don't seem to be allowed to open their mouths and too many times when they do they get it wrong / wrong timing. They have no depth in their ranks and the old guard controls everything. There seems to be no confidence about them and this comes out in both the way they have approached the leadership issue (got rid of dukes far too early, and have left kenny far too long), so until they get an air of confidence similar to labour (or even FF who seem to be straightening their backs at this stage) they will continue to fall back in polls.

irishh_bob

91011 wrote: »

The main reason both FG & Kenny just can't get acceptance from the public is that they simply do not off an alternative.

Name 5 FG politicians that you could see as Taosaich / Tanaiste or even as a senior minister?

Kenny - no, Bruton - possibly, Varadka - NO (he gets Sooo many facts wrong that his mouth is oversized due to number of times he's got his fott stuck in it), Hayes - nice guy, but no presence, coveney - possibly, but unheard from recently. Michael ring - possibly. Lucinda creiton - possibly Haven't heard from any others recently.

Do the same for labour. Gilmore - yes, Tommy Broughan - possibly, roisin shorthall - possibly, ivan bacik (assuming she's elected - yes, alex white - if elected, ruari quinn - yes, joan burton - annoying, but yes, michael d - of course, pat rabitte, jan o sullivan, willie penrose - all good too. Then yoiu also have liz mc manus & brendan howlin.


Basically most sitting labour TD's would be suitable for office, are well known and have ability to govern. - The advantage they have is they are allowed to speak to the press, they're articulate and they have the confidence of the person in the street.

Unfortunately for FG, they don't seem to be allowed to open their mouths and too many times when they do they get it wrong / wrong timing. They have no depth in their ranks and the old guard controls everything. There seems to be no confidence about them and this comes out in both the way they have approached the leadership issue (got rid of dukes far too early, and have left kenny far too long), so until they get an air of confidence similar to labour (or even FF who seem to be straightening their backs at this stage) they will continue to fall back in polls.

is thier meant to be some kind of objectivity in your short list of who could be a suitable taoiseach from the labour party :rolleyes:

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

I...but he regularly shoots himself in the foot with his public utterances without the FF spin machine having to do anything

This is one thing that I don't understand, though. Cowen and Lenihan (and indeed most of those trotted out over the past year when apologist bluffers / liars were required, as seen on PrimeTime's intro) regularly put both feet in it with blatant lies and mistruths, and so the FG spin machine (or indeed Kenny) shouldn't really "have to do anything" either.....the con should be obvious.

Is it that FF supporters are more blinkered and potential FG supporters (because they're more objective) are less forgiving ?

Irlandese

The key question is why the same old corrupt caste are elected time after time.
It is the same old story with the tenants tugging their forelocks for the landlord
or the dublin gurriers doing it for the merchant classes.
Are we genetically tied to being slaves and sheep or do we just lack the courage to
try democracy and vote for new, young, one-term only, politicians every time.
Experience in politics only corrupts. The civil service is there to explain the ins and outs
of how to do whatever the politicians want. It is getting honest politicians in the first place that seems to defy us.
My votes from now on are only going to people in politics for thefirst time to SERVE not be served by us sheep.
Forget your beauty contest limited to the same old corrupt old goats. Pick local community leaders, who have no links to political parties and certainly none to drug-controlling former or still paramilitaries, an even worse cancer than the old goats.

91011

irishh_bob wrote: »

is thier meant to be some kind of objectivity in your short list of who could be a suitable taoiseach from the labour party :rolleyes:

This is the biggest error that FG & their supporters make - they are so unsure about themselves that whenever someone makes a suggestion, they automatically assume that that person has a personal agenda for saying that.

No - I'm not a Labour voter, but like many 1995 - 2008 FF voters, I'd probably vote aganst FF if there was an election in the morning. - Previously I voted FG and even canvassed for Olivia Mitchel & Alan Shatter.

When I look at FG, all I see is a group of people who attack everything but rarely come up with good proposals - though their social welfare proposals are quite good (unfortunately the only thing of note for many years) - whereas Labour continue to argue the point rather than the man, and seem to have the nations interest at heart rather than scoring political points.

Thats how it comes across to joe public - I'd be your classic undecided voter, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that would entice me to vote FG at the moment. If FG themselves start believeing in themselves and each individual member makes themselves be heard, then things might change. But they absolutely must change leadeship becasue if cowen goes and Micheal Martin / Dermot ahern take over in FF, it will be a whole new ballgame.

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

This is one thing that I don't understand, though. Cowen and Lenihan (and indeed most of those trotted out over the past year when apologist bluffers / liars were required, as seen on PrimeTime's intro) regularly put both feet in it with blatant lies and mistruths, and so the FG spin machine (or indeed Kenny) shouldn't really "have to do anything" either.....the con should be obvious.

Is it that FF supporters are more blinkered and potential FG supporters (because they're more objective) are less forgiving ?

well, yes ff loyalists ten to be disingenous. i think they know deep down that if the opposition were in power the staunch defense they use for FF would suddenly not be applicable. their line would be "Fine Gael are a disaster, look at the mess they have made of things once they got power"
a lot of people would have fallen for it, because they don't follow the logical sequence of events- like keen observers of politics tend to do.
that's why it was a blessing in disguise FG didn't win the last election because the party would have been obliterated for years

as for potential FG voters, i think they acknowledge Cowen's faults, but many have admiration for Lenihan.
now to you this is down to the FF spin machine, but if you watch interviews with Brian Lenihan he is able to think on his feet and doesn't come out with cringeworthy statement like "i'm going to be myself".

in the final analysis Kenny is simply put a lousy salesman - he simply doesn't convince people that he is leadership material.

so rather than the electorate endorsing FF they simply have no confidence in the alternative thanks to Kenny.
A good leader should be able inspire confidence in his followers even if he privately is full of uncertanity. He should be able to think on his feet, be charismatic, and have a commanding presence whereby his words resonate with people when he speaks.
Can you honestly say you recognise any of these attributes in Enda Kenny.

Irlandese

Kenny is a perfect leader for FG right now. It is exactly like when Ireland kept on winning the Eurovision and nearly bankrupted RTE to put it on every year. Eventually they decided to put in awful entries until they succeded in losing. The last thing FG want is to be in government, cutting and generating future enemies across the shop.
So? What to do? Simple- put a moronic, red-necked, squeeky-voiced, little runt of a possibly androgenous git that no-one can love, as their deplorably un-electable front-man.
Yes, it certainly is working...............


Was that a bit harsh? Too near the truth? Especially the androgenous bit? Ah well, at least he won't know what it means. And he didn't say " I'm going to be myself" , he said, " I ham going tu be miss-elf" :

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

as for potential FG voters, i think they acknowledge Cowen's faults, but many have admiration for Lenihan.
now to you this is down to the FF spin machine, but if you watch interviews with Brian Lenihan he is able to think on his feet and doesn't come out with cringeworthy statement like "i'm going to be myself".

I laughed my head off when I read this. The idiot who sold us down the swanee with an over-enthusiastic, panicked bank bailout ?

And the same idiot that blamed Lehmans ?

As a "potential FG voter", my admiration is reserved for people who deserve it; and I would certainly vote for Kenny & Bruton ahead of Cowen & Lenihan - either combined or individually - any day of the week.

nacho libre wrote: »

in the final analysis Kenny is simply put a lousy salesman - he simply doesn't convince people that he is leadership material.

Neither does Cowen, and neither - IMHO - did Ahern. So what's your point ?

nacho libre wrote: »

A good leader should be able inspire confidence in his followers even if he privately is full of uncertanity. He should be able to think on his feet, be charismatic, and have a commanding presence whereby his words resonate with people when he speaks.

A good leader should also be honest and make rational, fair decisions.

I couldn't care less whether there is "charisma" (some people said both Haughey and Ahern had it, although I never saw it, and look where that got us) or whether someone comes out with naff soundbites, as long as they can do their job.

nacho libre wrote: »

Can you honestly say you recognise any of these attributes in Enda Kenny.

Maybe because I prefer to focus on honesty, integrity and ability, I haven't looked hard enough to be overly critical. I will admit that some of those are only there in small amounts, and I'll admit that - ideally - we should have someone that has all of Kenny's pros and some more of those.

But when the opposition is Cowen and Lenihan, he shouldn't really need those; honesty, fairness and integrity should be enough.

Liam Byrne

91011 wrote: »

This is the biggest error that FG & their supporters make - they are so unsure about themselves that whenever someone makes a suggestion, they automatically assume that that person has a personal agenda for saying that.

I don't think FG supporters have a monopoly on that one!

nacho libre

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I laughed my head off when I read this. The idiot who sold us down the swanee with an over-enthusiastic, panicked bank bailout ?

And the same idiot that blamed Lehmans ?

As a "potential FG voter", my admiration is reserved for people who deserve it; and I would certainly vote for Kenny & Bruton ahead of Cowen & Lenihan - either combined or individually - any day of the week.



Neither does Cowen, and neither - IMHO - did Ahern. So what's your point ?



A good leader should also be honest and make rational, fair decisions.

I couldn't care less whether there is "charisma" (some people said both Haughey and Ahern had it, although I never saw it, and look where that got us) or whether someone comes out with naff soundbites, as long as they can do their job.



Maybe because I prefer to focus on honesty, integrity and ability, I haven't looked hard enough to be overly critical. I will admit that some of those are only there in small amounts, and I'll admit that - ideally - we should have someone that has all of Kenny's pros and some more of those.

But when the opposition is Cowen and Lenihan, he shouldn't really need those; honesty, fairness and integrity should be enough.

at the risk of coming across as sycophantic, the problem is most people in this country when it comes down to it don't priortise the qualities that you do in their elected official.
if this was the case we would never have tolerated shannon being used by the US during the Iraq war. Most people up till now(perhaps it will change come the next election??) don't vote on the basis is this guy ethical and principled, the criteria seems to be is this guy presentable, charismatic and would i like to share a drink with him?

So in that sense Ahern was a good salesman. Part of his popularity was no doubt due to the good times but essentially he knew how to connect with people - he understood the Irish psyche.

I knew you would laugh at my statement about Lenihan, but i feel you're being harsh on him. Ideally a finance minister should have a background in finance. it is also a damning indictment of the department of finance that a lot of the civil servants don't have a finance related degree.
He(Lenihan) was prepared to face Vincent Browne when other people from FF weren't prepared to do so. Also the fact he has decided to stay on despite being diagnosed with cancer is admirable. I think he felt sense of duty to do this as well as it being perhaps a helpful distraction from his illness.

I want to see FF removed as much as anybody but i do have regard for Lenihan. Bruton with his knowledge of economics would of course have been a better choice as finance minister over the last few years.

Although I suspect Bruton is secretly delighted he never got the job as finance minister over the last few years as he and FG would be destroyed at the polls, as people would blame them for being inexperienced and out of their depth thus causing the crisis, despite the reality being they inherited an economic quagmire from a party who engaged in populism despite public spending spiralling out of control and there over reliance on a property bubble to keep the party going.

irishh_bob

91011 wrote: »

This is the biggest error that FG & their supporters make - they are so unsure about themselves that whenever someone makes a suggestion, they automatically assume that that person has a personal agenda for saying that.

No - I'm not a Labour voter, but like many 1995 - 2008 FF voters, I'd probably vote aganst FF if there was an election in the morning. - Previously I voted FG and even canvassed for Olivia Mitchel & Alan Shatter.

When I look at FG, all I see is a group of people who attack everything but rarely come up with good proposals - though their social welfare proposals are quite good (unfortunately the only thing of note for many years) - whereas Labour continue to argue the point rather than the man, and seem to have the nations interest at heart rather than scoring political points.

Thats how it comes across to joe public - I'd be your classic undecided voter, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that would entice me to vote FG at the moment. If FG themselves start believeing in themselves and each individual member makes themselves be heard, then things might change. But they absolutely must change leadeship becasue if cowen goes and Micheal Martin / Dermot ahern take over in FF, it will be a whole new ballgame.

fine gael have come out with many new policy documents and proposals but have failed to excite the public

labour have come out with nothing but populist opposition to everything yet have surged in the polls

rightwingdub

I can't stand Kenny but does Richard Bruton want to be FG leader, he comes across too much as a gentleman and FG are sometimes seen as a 19th century gentleman's club. Personally, if there is a heave against Kenny its a complete overreaction because of one opinion poll result, remember the clown Michael Noonan, after John Bruton was shafed in 2001, many FGers in 2002 probably regretted shafting Bruton, they wouldn't have won the 2002 general election but they wouldn't have lost 23 seats, probably about 5-10 seats and Bruton would have stepped down as FG leader.

Smiley Burnett

91011 wrote: »

This is the biggest error that FG & their supporters make - they are so unsure about themselves that whenever someone makes a suggestion, they automatically assume that that person has a personal agenda for saying that.

No - I'm not a Labour voter, but like many 1995 - 2008 FF voters, I'd probably vote aganst FF if there was an election in the morning. - Previously I voted FG and even canvassed for Olivia Mitchel & Alan Shatter.

When I look at FG, all I see is a group of people who attack everything but rarely come up with good proposals - though their social welfare proposals are quite good (unfortunately the only thing of note for many years) - whereas Labour continue to argue the point rather than the man, and seem to have the nations interest at heart rather than scoring political points.

Thats how it comes across to joe public - I'd be your classic undecided voter, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever that would entice me to vote FG at the moment. If FG themselves start believeing in themselves and each individual member makes themselves be heard, then things might change. But they absolutely must change leadeship becasue if cowen goes and Micheal Martin / Dermot ahern take over in FF, it will be a whole new ballgame.

Who do you think you are kidding?? "classic undecided voter"-- my @rse!!!

Bersouth

Laminations wrote: »

This is what I want to explore. I suppose a poll would have been better than a thread because a thread gets dragged into debating Kenny as party leader (which has been done to death elsewhere). What I want to do is much simpler, I want to quantify the number of votes that would be brought in by Kenny stepping aside. The question is 'if you currently wouldn't vote for FG (which rules out people like me,Liam Byrne, jmayo etc), would you be likely to vote for them if Kenny stood aside. If the No's greatly outweigh the Yes's (i.e. If his detractors still wouldn't vote for FG) then Kenny shouldn't stand aside but if it's the opposite and he truly is a significant stumbling block for voters then FG need to have a serious internal debate

Dump Enda Kenny and put in Bruton one of the last ment to forego his pension.....

Liam Byrne

nacho libre wrote: »

So in that sense Ahern was a good salesman. Part of his popularity was no doubt due to the good times but essentially he knew how to connect with people - he understood the Irish psyche.

He certainly didn't connect with me or understand my psyche. He came across as an untrustworthy used car salesman, tbh.

nacho libre wrote: »

I knew you would laugh at my statement about Lenihan, but i feel you're being harsh on him. Ideally a finance minister should have a background in finance. it is also a damning indictment of the department of finance that a lot of the civil servants don't have a finance related degree.

Hang on a sec! I'm being harsh on him, because he isn't qualified ?

If I I took on a job as a brain surgeon and killed someone, would you forgive me on the same basis ?

nacho libre wrote: »

He(Lenihan) was prepared to face Vincent Browne when other people from FF weren't prepared to do so.

Facing Vincent Browne is irrelevant if you do so to repeat the lie that this had anything to do with Lehmans.

nacho libre wrote: »

Also the fact he has decided to stay on despite being diagnosed with cancer is admirable. I think he felt sense of duty to do this as well as it being perhaps a helpful distraction from his illness.

OMG!!!! The fact that he's sick is irrelevant, and I hope to God that even FF have more sense than to allow someone do the most important job in the state because "it's perhaps a helpful distraction from his illness" !!! :eek:

I mean, I was almost happy simply disagreeing with you until I read the above!

nacho libre wrote: »

I want to see FF removed as much as anybody but i do have regard for Lenihan.

That's your call, but I cannot see why, and anything that you said in the above post is about as convincing as Ahern's claims about his finances.

sesna

I cant believe how badly FG are f*/king themselves up, with all this focus on Kenny. FF are being let off the hook in a week when Cowen was blamed officially and independently for messing up the country, and when he was rated at his lowest ever.

I used to never understand how the electorate could vote FF back in to office again and again. It all makes sense now with whats been going on over the past few days with their friends in FG.

Richard Brutons silence over the past few days and failure to express confidence in his leader has undone years of hard work by FG on the ground and by Kenny.

I hear Brian Hayes Coveney are also behind this leadership heave.