Sunday Times - Roadbuilding hits a dead end

darkman2

Doomed to repeat the mistakes of the 80's it seems

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article7144925.ece


So what do we do now. Surely the NRA should be wound up if it has no work to do?

Bards

darkman2 wrote: »

Doomed to repeat the mistakes of the 80's it seems

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/article7144925.ece


So what do we do now. Surely the NRA should be wound up if it has no work to do?

another reason to vote this incompetant government out at the earliest oppurtunity

Roads/Infrastructure are an investment in our future not an expense or luxury to be cut.

It will take years to build up the expertise and Scale once the construction companies go somewhere else.

Tech3

The NRA was eventually going to come out and mention that capital investment in roads has hit a dead end. But we have to be realistic that this country is being drip fed by the EU and that new road schemes being funded by taxpayers money will be few and far between in the next 5-10 years.

But to note the following which may be done within that time frame excluding the PPP's:

Planned schemes which could not fall off the priority list include a number of works on the N17 between Galway and Sligo, and bypasses of towns such as Adare on the N21 and Dungarvan on the N25. Some projects on the N5, recently criticised by American multinationals based in Mayo, may not go ahead.

The N17 is a very important route and schemes such as Tuam-Claremorris need to be fastracked. Not only does it provide better travel times it also bypasses some of the most dangerous parts of the national primary route. The N5 is in a far worse condition than the N21 and one shouldnt be prioritised over the other given both routes are important. The N24 doesnt get a mention on the article

galwayrush

If common sense prevailed, they should build a dual carriageway from Loughgeorge to Galway to by pass that traffic nightmare that is Claregalway.
I don't see the M17 doing too much to lessen that problem as it is too far away.

Jayuu

galwayrush wrote: »

If common sense prevailed, they should build a dual carriageway from Loughgeorge to Galway to by pass that traffic nightmare that is Claregalway.
I don't see the M17 doing too much to lessen that problem as it is too far away.

This is such a short-term attitude. A bypass of Claregalway will alleviate one traffic hotsport but so what. All that happens is the traffic ends up being jammed somewhere else down the road. This was the approach that was taken for years with Ireland's infrastucture and its taken us this long to try and catch up.

Yes things are going to be tough for the next few years, but its not as if its only road building that is suffering and while it may slow to a crawl it will continue.

As for the M17 being too far away, it will be a couple of miles away from Claregalway and will eventually link three different pieces of major infrastructure. You can't expect the motorways to twist and turn so that they run close to every single town along their path.

galwayrush

Jayuu wrote: »

This is such a short-term attitude. A bypass of Claregalway will alleviate one traffic hotsport but so what. All that happens is the traffic ends up being jammed somewhere else down the road. This was the approach that was taken for years with Ireland's infrastucture and its taken us this long to try and catch up.

Yes things are going to be tough for the next few years, but its not as if its only road building that is suffering and while it may slow to a crawl it will continue.

As for the M17 being too far away, it will be a couple of miles away from Claregalway and will eventually link three different pieces of major infrastructure. You can't expect the motorways to twist and turn so that they run close to every single town along their path.

Sorry, that wasn't the point i was making.
The M 17 is an excellent piece of important infrastructure, but i feel a proper Claregalway bypass is needed as well, as opposed to the proposed by pass with it's 9 roundabouts.

Jayuu

galwayrush wrote: »

Sorry, that wasn't the point i was making.
The M 17 is an excellent piece of important infrastructure, but i feel a proper Claregalway bypass is needed as well, as opposed to the proposed by pass with it's 9 roundabouts.

Understood. I didn't know anything about a proposed bypass of Claregalway, independent of the M17. Is this going ahead?

serfboard

galwayrush wrote: »

.. but i feel a proper Claregalway bypass is needed as well, as opposed to the proposed by pass with it's 9 roundabouts.

Claregalway will get one bypass. It will be called the M17. That's it. We're lucky to be even getting that, considering the way things are.

Claregalway will remain congested at peak times for the next 4 years (2011 + 3).

galwayrush

Jayuu wrote: »

Understood. I didn't know anything about a proposed bypass of Claregalway, independent of the M17. Is this going ahead?

Suppost to be going ahead as part of Noel Grealish's deal to back FF in Government, although with much of the route severely affected by the winter flooding , i doubt if it will go ahead even if the money is there.

galwayrush

serfboard wrote: »

Claregalway will get one bypass. It will be called the M17. That's it. We're lucky to be even getting that, considering the way things are.

Claregalway will remain congested at peak times for the next 4 years (2011 + 3).

You can add many more years to that.:mad:

Chris_5339762

Claregalway inner relief road. Cheap and piss and a vote-winner for the west of Ireland. Still possible once the M17 fails to clear the town.

Sponge Bob

Roadbuilding hit a dead end in 2008 save that the contracts for the MIUs were signed by then.

Only the Crusheen Gort and the Castleisland schemes have been signed off since. Dempsey then diverted the money that was left to to 'planning' roads that will not be built in my lifetime to give the FF yahoos somthing to announce.

The dept of Transport has a programmed in a deliberate underspend of around €400-500m without tellingg anobody about it. Dempseys grand announcement in December was but a pack of lies as you can all see.

L1011

darkman2 wrote: »

So what do we do now. Surely the NRA should be wound up if it has no work to do?

The NRA is the National Roads Authority, not the New Roads design Authority. It has work to do at all times, irrespective of new schemes being built or not.

Jayuu

We've got to realise that we've built a huge amount of road network in the last 10 years. Assuming we get the finish on the M7 and progress on the M11, M17 M18 and M20 routes over the next few years, we will have covered a significant portion of the country with an excellent road infrastructure. There surely isn't the need then for huge road infrastrcture project at that point although I'm not saying that we shouldn't continue to improve the road network.

We now have to consider other sections of infrastructure. Our rail network is third world at best and we need to focus next on bringing that up to a decent standard. The national and regional bus networks need more money (and potentially more competition). What we also have to do in the next few years is justify the cost of our infrastructure spend, not just in terms of revenue but in quality of life issues as well.

The era of big road building is probably over but that doesn't necessarily means its doomsday.

dowlingm

When those byelections are held, this government is done so the clock is ticking. I suspect it may be harder to hold the govt to ransom individually by demanding NRA projects since many of those who propped up the government will likely be out of work just as surely as BIFFO.

D'Peoples Voice

dowlingm wrote: »

When those byelections are held, this government is done so the clock is ticking. I suspect it may be harder to hold the govt to ransom individually by demanding NRA projects since many of those who propped up the government will likely be out of work just as surely as BIFFO.

Yes unfortunately once the current incompetent fools are thrown out,
the next lot will come in, and soon realise that we really have no money.
Ignore the bank bailout, that will at most cost us EUR 70 billion,
but we ran a budget deficit of circa EUR 20 for each of the last two years,
and look to continue that deficit for each of the next 4-5 years,
and no that does not include money being borrowed to pay for the bailout nor interest on those loans.
Hence our day to day spending needs to be cut, and no TD wants to cut CURRENT spending as it affects votes, cutting capital spending like roads is a much easier target - roads don't vote - people do.
Hence anyone that expects the next government to change its investment priorities is a fool...:rolleyes:

T Corolla

So there is no chance of doing up the N52 Belvedre-Tyrellpass and completing the road to Delvin and maybe taking some of the 90 degree bends out of it

runway16

Jayuu wrote: »

We've got to realise that we've built a huge amount of road network in the last 10 years. Assuming we get the finish on the M7 and progress on the M11, M17 M18 and M20 routes over the next few years, we will have covered a significant portion of the country with an excellent road infrastructure. There surely isn't the need then for huge road infrastrcture project at that point although I'm not saying that we shouldn't continue to improve the road network.

We now have to consider other sections of infrastructure. Our rail network is third world at best and we need to focus next on bringing that up to a decent standard. The national and regional bus networks need more money (and potentially more competition). What we also have to do in the next few years is justify the cost of our infrastructure spend, not just in terms of revenue but in quality of life issues as well.

The era of big road building is probably over but that doesn't necessarily means its doomsday.

We need to stop using this phrase "thrild world" in relation to anything in this country. While I get that you are simply pointing out that they are not up to standard, third world is way extreme. I hear thinsg reffered to as third world in this country, that so patently are not. Anyone who says this hasnt been to a third world country IMHO.

The trains are nicer and more comfortable than Dutch, Belgian or French trains on the IC network. The problem is frequency, but we need to realise that the demand for the type of network we want just isnt there. This is a small country with low population densities. IE put extra frequencies on Dublin - Limerick and demand was woeful even with low fares. This country is only the same size in population terms as Berlin, with about half of all that within 60 miles of Dublin.

Yes, there is scope to improve - speed is critical. even true 100mph running would be enough, and that woudnt take the world to achieve. We also need double tracking on some stretches, and improved ability for connections.

Needs work? YES!!! ;-)

Third world? NO. Just a realisation that we dont have a billion people like India.

Now lets stop doing everything in this country down all the time! ;-)

Aidan1

The dept of Transport has a programmed in a deliberate underspend of around €400-500m without tellingg anobody about it

Untrue, I'm afraid. The primary difficulty is to do with a lack of sanction to commit to new programmes which would entail expenditure in 2011, and so capital expenditure this year falls. It's happening everywhere.

Jayuu

runway16 wrote: »

We need to stop using this phrase "thrild world" in relation to anything in this country. While I get that you are simply pointing out that they are not up to standard, third world is way extreme. I hear thinsg reffered to as third world in this country, that so patently are not. Anyone who says this hasnt been to a third world country IMHO.

I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. The phrase "third world" in this usage has a common meaning and everybody understands what it means.

And the fact is that our rail network is below standard. The idea that it can still take almost three hours on a train to get to Waterford from Dublin when it will soon take around 2/3 of that time by car is not acceptable in this day and age.

runway16

Jayuu wrote: »

I'm not going to get bogged down in semantics. The phrase "third world" in this usage has a common meaning and everybody understands what it means.

And the fact is that our rail network is below standard. The idea that it can still take almost three hours on a train to get to Waterford from Dublin when it will soon take around 2/3 of that time by car is not acceptable in this day and age.

Which is pretty much exactly what I said above....

I just dont like us referring to aspects of our country as Third world. If we say it about ourselves, thats how others percieve us.

Poster King

No mention of Galway Bypass in that article. Is it assumed that it will go ahead once the legal issues are sorted out?

clon

check out all the suspended road schemes from the nra 2009 annual report 2009 now posted online in the nra website.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/GeneralPublications/file,17197,en.pdf

JohnC.

N24 Mooncoin bypass suspended. I remember that starting "any time now" in the 90's.

Chris_5339762

There sure arent 90 schemes in this lot that are marked as 'suspended' though. Reckon theres more.

Somewhat surprising ones that are listed as suspended -

Leinster Outer Orbital
Cork North Ring Road Western section (!)
Ringaskiddy to Cork (!)

Does listing the Galway Bypass as Suspended mean it wont go ahead as a PPP even if it gets through the courts? There is no WAY it should be postponed and should have been built as part of the M6 MIU anyway.

Sponge Bob

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Does listing the Galway Bypass as Suspended mean it wont go ahead as a PPP even if it gets through the courts?

Yes.

Sponge Bob

But none of this is new

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0324/1224243317036.html

Government halts up to 80 major road schemesTIM O'BRIEN
THE GOVERNMENT has ordered a halt to planned spending on almost 80 national road-building schemes, worth billions of euro, until further notice.
The instruction was issued to the National Roads Authority late last month. Under it, the NRA is forbidden from spending on all capital projects which are not already under way, unless each new project is individually sanctioned by the Department of Finance.
The curbs will affect 78 major construction projects in the NRA Roads Programme, 55 of them national primary roads and 23 national secondary roads.
The curb will also extend to road maintenance where contracts for items such as road resurfacing will also need to be pre-approved by the Department of Finance.
A spokesman for the NRA said the authority was “very concerned”, particularly as a lot of current inter-urban schemes were ahead of schedule, and would be completed this year.
Under normal circumstances the NRA would then move ahead with 55 planned improvement schemes on national primary routes, including those linking Dublin with Monaghan, Sligo, Mayo and Wexford, as well as inter-regional routes, such as Limerick to Waterford and Limerick to Cork, and national secondary roads.
In effect the move means that as the inter-urban routes are completed over the coming 20 months, the NRA will gradually run out of work, unless schemes are individually approved by the department.


Road schemes affected

Two schemes between Kells, Co Meath and Belturbet, Co Cavan on the N3

Three schemes on the N2 between Ashbourne and Co Monaghan

Three schemes on the N4 between Mullingar and Castlebaldwin

Three schemes on the N16 in counties Sligo, Leitrim and Cavan

Four schemes between Longford and Westport on the N5

Six schemes on the N25 between New Ross, Co Wexford and the Cork Southern Ring

Four schemes on the N13/N14/N15 group of roads in the northwest

Five schemes on the N22 between Tralee and Cork

Seven schemes on the N24 in Co Tipperary

23 schemes on national secondary roads.

These schemes will not now go ahead unless specifically sanctioned by the Department of Finance.

JohnC.

Yeah, it's not new, but it is more detailed.

spacetweek

clon wrote: »

check out all the suspended road schemes from the nra 2009 annual report 2009 now posted online in the nra website.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/GeneralPublications/file,17197,en.pdf

Based on that list, I put together some stats. I know how you guys all love stats so much


National Primaries

Construction 8/81 = 10%
Tender 5/81 = 6%
Approved 9/81 = 11%
Awaiting 4/81 = 5%
Planning 31/81 = 38%
Suspended 24/81 = 30%

Cancelled: 18 Schemes


National Secondaries

Approved 2/32 = 6%
Awaiting 1/32 = 3%
Planning 11/32 = 34%
Suspended 18/32 = 56%

Cancelled: 4 Schemes


Note 1 : I split schemes out when they covered more than one route number.
Note 2 : Cancelled schemes are listed, or used to be listed, on the NRA's site. Now they're missing from the PDF, which leads me to believe they are kyboshed. However, some of them are missing due to being superceded by other schemes, so they may eventually get built in a different form. Not necessarily gone forever, then.
Note 3: In the last 10 years, 58 HQDC or higher quality schemes have been completed (primary and secondary)

A summary:
In the case of the Primaries, 8 will come in this year, with another 18 probably starting within the next 5ish years. So there'll be around 3 or 4 new starts per year every year for the next while. Ten of these are covered by the PPP program. The secondaries are doing pretty bad: Only 3 within the next ~5 years.

Chris_5339762

But the numbers just dont add up. Your stats show 22 cancelled, the papers say 90. And there wont be 3 or 4 starts each year; 2 maybe but no more. And once the PPPs are all being built that'll drop further.

L1011

The papers claim includes suspended schemes, and if I can speculate, Green Party hyperbole to make figures sound better/'greener'