Why are engineering points so low?

boblong

The standard of maths in Ireland is not exactly high as far as I can see and attaching extra incentive to a subject which has both poor takeup rates as well as massive importance in the real world can surely only be a good thing.

just-joe

Seems as though it'll only lead to more people doing it though, and not a better standard?

If they're giving more points for the same performance (or even making the exams easier), then people won't improve at maths?

boblong

just-joe wrote: »

Seems as though it'll only lead to more people doing it though, and not a better standard?

If they're giving more points for the same performance (or even making the exams easier), then people won't improve at maths?

More people doing an exam (the LC) would increase competition and therefore ideally drive standards up. But I'm in total agreement with the idea that Project Maths is stupid (if that's what you're implying) and that it will have a negative effect on those hoping to do third level.

just-joe

Hmmmm, I just can't see that more poeple doing it would improve standards.. Ideally yes, but in practice? You'd just end up with the same amount of people doing well, and lots more people getting average grades.

And if its not done in the right way (i.e. project maths) then that definitely isn't good for anyone. The difficulty of second level can't go down if we want to produce "big thinkers", through tough third level education. So i def agree with ya there.

me_right_one

Offy wrote: »

There are very few jobs in engineering in Ireland and the pay is poor when compared to other professions. If your going to spend 4+ years in Uni you might as well spend them doing something that will pay well afterwards. At present Tesco's pay better than a lot of engineering jobs.

True. Depressing, but true

C.D. wrote: »

Biomedical and computer/electrical industries employ very large numbers of people in this country. The starting salaries have been, and still are, above most other professions (one of my posts here or in work and jobs links to the gradireland salary survey, which confirms this).

Complete and utter scutter. Engineering, especially in manufacturing / computers / bio is the biggest dead duck ever. Pfizer cut 700 jobs, Intel has one out of 3 Irish Fabs making profit, F14 is a hole in the ground, F10 is closing next February, they've had 3 redundancies in the last 3 years, EVERYBODY on the fab floor has a degree or masters or other, and they're just pressing stop and go on machines for 12 hours. The pay is just about worthwhile to keep yourself off the dole. Dont do it kids. You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

just-joe

me_right_one wrote: »

You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

I had a few mates who were making 60 quid an hour on busking last summer. Each. Maybe we should all be busking?!

C.D.

me_right_one wrote: »

Complete and utter scutter. Engineering, especially in manufacturing / computers / bio is the biggest dead duck ever. Pfizer cut 700 jobs, Intel has one out of 3 Irish Fabs making profit, F14 is a hole in the ground, F10 is closing next February, they've had 3 redundancies in the last 3 years, EVERYBODY on the fab floor has a degree or masters or other, and they're just pressing stop and go on machines for 12 hours. The pay is just about worthwhile to keep yourself off the dole. Dont do it kids. You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

I never meant it as in "a land of golden opportunities"- in terms of graduate employment, there are still people picking up jobs in these areas (I'm a recent grad working in Pharma). I can safely say of my friends who graduated last year and this year, it has been difficult to land a job anyway, but those who had a Comp/Elec, Biomed Engineering degree fared much better than those with Business, Arts, Marketing etc. degrees. Perhaps I should have been a little clearer-I meant relative to other industries.

With regards to pay, it is as I said, like in any industry to earn good money you'll need to break into management. Grad salaries in the Pharma/Medical devices company I work in range from mid twenties to thirty plus for the best so is a bit more than "worthwhile to stay off the dole".

Furthermore, Pfizer cutting jobs was not indicative of the industry or the health of the company, it was due to overcapacity after the Pfizer/Wyeth business.

Group of my mates made €500+ between four of them in a single night busking and selling their album on Grafton Street. Don't know why he needs a job

just-joe

I also had a mate who sat on Grafton St with a sign saying "Need some money for a few pints later!" and made 20 euros in an hour!

Don't know if ya could do it 40 hours a week all year, but still, not a bad rate!?

To get back on topic... I would think the main reason points going down would be because of the lack of graduate opportunities for engineers.

C.D.

I think there are also misconceptions and a low awareness of what Engineers do/are. I remember when I started my degree and I'd tell people what I was doing, they would presume that I would graduate and become a mechanic or fix people's boilers. Even career guidance counselors displayed a shocking lack of knowledge about what Engineers actually do. I think the blame has to be partly borne Engineers Ireland:

1) The title "Engineer" is not protected, so the guy who fixes your cooker after doing a 1 week course is an Engineer. This naturally confuses people and leads them to believe this is the type of career/work you would do after college- when in fact Engineering is more more diverse and challenging than most people realise.

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

3) Engineers seem to have a very low media profile, the only person who comes to mind is John Power (Engineers Ireland). Raising the media profile of Engineers and engineering achievements in Ireland would go a long way to educating people about the profession.

Denerick

just-joe wrote: »

I also had a mate who sat on Grafton St with a sign saying "Need some money for a few pints later!" and made 20 euros in an hour!

You do know that your mate isn't just some whacky irritating student type, he's literally a beggar. I'm sure his parents must be proud.

just-joe

Indeed, thats exactly what I said to him "Don't you know you're not just some whacky irritating student type, you're literally a beggar."

And he said "Chill out dude, I just made 20 quid, who gives a fcuk"

And then I thought, hmmm theres definitely one person out there who'd have a sarcy comment to make. And I was right.

Charlington

C.D. wrote: »

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

This is x2 worse if you do computer science.

shay_562

C.D. wrote: »

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

For what it's worth, the guidance counsellors at my school didn't have a bollox notion about Business, Psychology or Arts-based courses either. As a general rule, secondary school counsellors seem to be a bit useless.

TheAmateur

What's the story with this Project Maths? The "overview" on the webpage isn't exactly a mine of information. And is it true they're thinking of letting people who fail maths into courses, or was this just another one of Coughlan's gaffes (think it was her who said it)?

Denerick

just-joe wrote: »

Indeed, thats exactly what I said to him "Don't you know you're not just some whacky irritating student type, you're literally a beggar."

And he said "Chill out dude, I just made 20 quid, who gives a fcuk"

And then I thought, hmmm theres definitely one person out there who'd have a sarcy comment to make. And I was right.

Oh for Christs sake, he uses the word 'dude'? I don't know him and I already assume he's a horrible wanker.

just-joe

shay_562 wrote: »

For what it's worth, the guidance counsellors at my school didn't have a bollox notion about Business, Psychology or Arts-based courses either.

Seems we can conclude guidance counsellors don't have a bollox notion about anything.

@Denerick - FYI using the word "dude" is actually cool. Get with it dude.

ainrialai

This thread has got a bit of topic.anyone else hoping to do engineering in trinity.what points you hoping for?

brownacid

Aim to get at least higher than the ucd points and you'l be guaranteed your spot pretty much

ApeXaviour

claire h wrote: »

Is that 200 points for honours maths across the board, regardless what course you've applied for? Because that does seem a tad idiotic.

Agreed, that would just unbalance the system in the opposite direction. However I think it's a great idea for courses like Engineering, MSISS, Economics, Finance, Science, Medicine, CS etc.

whenever

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Agreed, that would just unbalance the system in the opposite direction. However I think it's a great idea for courses like Engineering, MSISS, Economics, Finance, Science, Medicine, CS etc.

Its objective is to increase the number of LC student who opt for HC Maths. This is not intended to simply raise the apparent points for Engineering etc rather it will improve the overall educational attainment of the LC cohort. We have too few school leavers/graduates with HC maths and this is generally recognised as being partly because the time required for the subject is substantially greater than for others.
I do have a concern that the bonus will be discriminatory towards students from poorer areas. There, schools generally have lower (or zero) numbers taking HC maths and pupils do not have access to outside school grinds etc

sarahisdeadly

ainrialai wrote: »

This thread has got a bit of topic.anyone else hoping to do engineering in trinity.what points you hoping for?

I'm thinking about it. I'm hoping to get high enough points, but am worried because i haven't done physics...I dunno if this will be too much of a hinderence.

dermo1990

sarahisdeadly wrote: »

I'm thinking about it. I'm hoping to get high enough points, but am worried because i haven't done physics...I dunno if this will be too much of a hinderence.

I've just finished JF, and I found the physics course somewhat challenging to say the least. I did Physics for the leaving cert and still found it difficult, but that was mainly down to how they structured the course by starting with the most challenging of topics. It's possible after the amount of complaints that this structure will be reviewed.
Assuming there is not going to be any change in the physics lecturer you probably will be fine given that his notes are fairly thorough