Why are engineering points so low?

ainrialai

points were 405 last year.anyone think theyll shoot up

No.

pocket aces

The points won't shoot up, the reason they're so low is that so few people are doing honours maths.

Chuchoter

No-one wants to do it. Thats the only reason things like psychology and med are high, lots of applicants. They won't shoot up unless theres a massive honours maths uptake.

Jonathan

Dónal wrote: »

No.

There is a strong possibility that they will go up this year.

The school is reducing the number of places for incoming students in order to have the same amount of students in the school when it moves to a five year program.

boblong

However I would imagine that in the future, Project Maths will make the higher level requirement more accessible.

electrogrimey

They're also making an A1 in higher maths worth 200 points, or so I heard. Not sure when it's coming in.

PurpleFistMixer

boblong wrote: »

Project Maths

boblong

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

*facepaw*

Now now, students need to learn the merits of shape drawing and venn diagrams!

:P

timmywex

No one wants to do engineering these days with the whole perceived construction industry in ruins etc! Its dropped by like 50 points last year!

Denerick

200 points for honours maths is crazy. Mainly because I'm rubbish at maths.

Does nobody else find it mad that someone who managed to get an A1 in maths and a D3 in all of his other honours subjects will get the same amount of points as someone who averages a C1 across the board?

FruitLover

Denerick wrote: »

Does nobody else find it mad that someone who managed to get an A1 in maths and a D3 in all of his other honours subjects will get the same amount of points as someone who averages a C1 across the board?

What's more useful to an engineer - an A1 in maths or a C1 in French, History and Home Economics?

Denerick

FruitLover wrote: »

What's more useful to an engineer - an A1 in maths or a C1 in French, History and Home Economics?

Personally I despise our education system, which seems to think that the development of 'skills' is more important than the fostering of a freethinking, fully rounded individual. Why not make an A1 in English worth 200 points? or Art? Why maths? Is this what our education system has become? A factory for economic units to ply their days at mirthless occupations in order to facilitate another generation to live in a grey myopia?

SimpleLogic

Denerick wrote: »

A factory for economic units to ply their days at mirthless occupations in order to facilitate another generation to live in a grey myopia?

lol nice sentence and all, but really be realistic. High level computer work and research are high level growth areas in the future along with other jobs that require a high standard of maths. It is hardly evil of the government to encourage people to be well trained so they get those jobs. Just because you wouldnt enjoy these jobs doesnt mean other wouldnt too. People will still learn the other subjects, they are just encouraged to focus on maths

claire h

Is that 200 points for honours maths across the board, regardless what course you've applied for? Because that does seem a tad idiotic.

boblong

Denerick wrote: »

mirthless occupations .... grey myopia?

All in the eye of the beholder. There's hardly anything malignant with a government trying to promote areas that it thinks will serve to further the nation. I do have to laugh at any insinuation that a greater focus on science and mathematics will spawn some sort of Orwellian hive-mind though :-)

Denerick

I stand by my hyperbole.

amacachi

Denerick wrote: »

200 points for honours maths is crazy. Mainly because I'm rubbish at maths.

Does nobody else find it mad that someone who managed to get an A1 in maths and a D3 in all of his other honours subjects will get the same amount of points as someone who averages a C1 across the board?

You really are rubbish at maths, believe it or not 325 is not equal to 420. It's crazy huh? See this is what you're missing out on by being rubbish at maths. Actually no, maybe you're freethinking enough that they do equal each other in your little world.

Denerick

amacachi wrote: »

You really are rubbish at maths, believe it or not 325 is not equal to 420. It's crazy huh? See this is what you're missing out on by being rubbish at maths. Actually no, maybe you're freethinking enough that they do equal each other in your little world.

What use is maths when I'm gazing at the stars dear lad?

amacachi

Denerick wrote: »

What use is maths when I'm gazing at the stars dear lad?

I enjoy looking at the stars far more when I understand what's keeping them there, how far away they are, why we can see them and pretty much everything about them.

Denerick

amacachi wrote: »

I enjoy looking at the stars far more when I understand what's keeping them there, how far away they are, why we can see them and pretty much everything about them.

Where's the mystery in that?

amacachi

Denerick wrote: »

Where's the mystery in that?

If you're happy being a free-thinking ignoramus while others educate themselves and can still feel wonder at things they understand then more power to you.

A Primal Nut

Denerick wrote: »

What use is maths when I'm gazing at the stars dear lad?

What use is French, English, Art or any other subject while gazing at the stars? By that logic we shouldn't study any subject because apparently they are no use to use while starting at stars (is this all you do with your life or something).

Offy

There are very few jobs in engineering in Ireland and the pay is poor when compared to other professions. If your going to spend 4+ years in Uni you might as well spend them doing something that will pay well afterwards. At present Tesco's pay better than a lot of engineering jobs.

C.D.

Offy wrote: »

There are very few jobs in engineering in Ireland and the pay is poor when compared to other professions. If your going to spend 4+ years in Uni you might as well spend them doing something that will pay well afterwards. At present Tesco's pay better than a lot of engineering jobs.

Not quite true my friend. Biomedical and computer/electrical industries employ very large numbers of people in this country. The starting salaries have been, and still are, above most other professions (one of my posts here or in work and jobs links to the gradireland salary survey, which confirms this). The issue of low pay relative to other industries only happens mid to late career if you don't make the jump into management- but that is not unusual, that's always where the big money is.

However, in reference to Civil Engineers (who outnumber the rest of us!) jobs are very tough to come by and I can't think of any Civil Engineering graduate from 2008 onwards who has a job in their field.

Jonathan

Tone down the insults but carry on as you were.

just-joe

Hmmm, I can agree somewhat with both sides of the argument here. Its unfair to reward those who are gifted in one area (ie maths) and give them more points, and leave those who prefer languages etc with whatever they normally get.

Obviously they are doing this for a reason, because there is a need for people who are good at maths, but at the same time, isn't it unfair?

Theres nothing stopping the government saying "forget numbers lets focus on design..", money can be made in many different places, not just finance/computers/electronics?

And also, I think its unwise to give more points to maths, thus dropping the standard you need to get in to these courses. So many people will get a nasty surprise when they realise the amount of maths involved in so many 3rd level courses. I guess this is more relevant to that project maths lark, setting a lot of people up for a tough time in college.

ajjmk

back to the original question....i hope they dont shoot up, engineering in trinity is 1st on my cao! the way im looking at it is that if we're still this deep in recession in 4-5 years time, we're all fecked!:P

just-joe

As a really random aside, a talk from Ignite (which was in the science gallery) about the importance of creativity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZNHpafnvPY

Kinda says something about why we should not just focus on maths..



(There was a lot of cool talks on that night about various things, click on the links and watch them if you have time!)

trellheim

But we don't focus on maths. And I think we need to.

just-joe

Maybe there is no focus in Irish education then? Cos there definitely isn't a focus on language/art/music..

And from what I can remember there was always a lot of maths homework, and a bit of everything else..

boblong

The standard of maths in Ireland is not exactly high as far as I can see and attaching extra incentive to a subject which has both poor takeup rates as well as massive importance in the real world can surely only be a good thing.

just-joe

Seems as though it'll only lead to more people doing it though, and not a better standard?

If they're giving more points for the same performance (or even making the exams easier), then people won't improve at maths?

boblong

just-joe wrote: »

Seems as though it'll only lead to more people doing it though, and not a better standard?

If they're giving more points for the same performance (or even making the exams easier), then people won't improve at maths?

More people doing an exam (the LC) would increase competition and therefore ideally drive standards up. But I'm in total agreement with the idea that Project Maths is stupid (if that's what you're implying) and that it will have a negative effect on those hoping to do third level.

just-joe

Hmmmm, I just can't see that more poeple doing it would improve standards.. Ideally yes, but in practice? You'd just end up with the same amount of people doing well, and lots more people getting average grades.

And if its not done in the right way (i.e. project maths) then that definitely isn't good for anyone. The difficulty of second level can't go down if we want to produce "big thinkers", through tough third level education. So i def agree with ya there.

me_right_one

Offy wrote: »

There are very few jobs in engineering in Ireland and the pay is poor when compared to other professions. If your going to spend 4+ years in Uni you might as well spend them doing something that will pay well afterwards. At present Tesco's pay better than a lot of engineering jobs.

True. Depressing, but true

C.D. wrote: »

Biomedical and computer/electrical industries employ very large numbers of people in this country. The starting salaries have been, and still are, above most other professions (one of my posts here or in work and jobs links to the gradireland salary survey, which confirms this).

Complete and utter scutter. Engineering, especially in manufacturing / computers / bio is the biggest dead duck ever. Pfizer cut 700 jobs, Intel has one out of 3 Irish Fabs making profit, F14 is a hole in the ground, F10 is closing next February, they've had 3 redundancies in the last 3 years, EVERYBODY on the fab floor has a degree or masters or other, and they're just pressing stop and go on machines for 12 hours. The pay is just about worthwhile to keep yourself off the dole. Dont do it kids. You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

just-joe

me_right_one wrote: »

You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

I had a few mates who were making 60 quid an hour on busking last summer. Each. Maybe we should all be busking?!

C.D.

me_right_one wrote: »

Complete and utter scutter. Engineering, especially in manufacturing / computers / bio is the biggest dead duck ever. Pfizer cut 700 jobs, Intel has one out of 3 Irish Fabs making profit, F14 is a hole in the ground, F10 is closing next February, they've had 3 redundancies in the last 3 years, EVERYBODY on the fab floor has a degree or masters or other, and they're just pressing stop and go on machines for 12 hours. The pay is just about worthwhile to keep yourself off the dole. Dont do it kids. You might aswell try and make a living busking as any of the above.

I never meant it as in "a land of golden opportunities"- in terms of graduate employment, there are still people picking up jobs in these areas (I'm a recent grad working in Pharma). I can safely say of my friends who graduated last year and this year, it has been difficult to land a job anyway, but those who had a Comp/Elec, Biomed Engineering degree fared much better than those with Business, Arts, Marketing etc. degrees. Perhaps I should have been a little clearer-I meant relative to other industries.

With regards to pay, it is as I said, like in any industry to earn good money you'll need to break into management. Grad salaries in the Pharma/Medical devices company I work in range from mid twenties to thirty plus for the best so is a bit more than "worthwhile to stay off the dole".

Furthermore, Pfizer cutting jobs was not indicative of the industry or the health of the company, it was due to overcapacity after the Pfizer/Wyeth business.

Group of my mates made €500+ between four of them in a single night busking and selling their album on Grafton Street. Don't know why he needs a job

just-joe

I also had a mate who sat on Grafton St with a sign saying "Need some money for a few pints later!" and made 20 euros in an hour!

Don't know if ya could do it 40 hours a week all year, but still, not a bad rate!?

To get back on topic... I would think the main reason points going down would be because of the lack of graduate opportunities for engineers.

C.D.

I think there are also misconceptions and a low awareness of what Engineers do/are. I remember when I started my degree and I'd tell people what I was doing, they would presume that I would graduate and become a mechanic or fix people's boilers. Even career guidance counselors displayed a shocking lack of knowledge about what Engineers actually do. I think the blame has to be partly borne Engineers Ireland:

1) The title "Engineer" is not protected, so the guy who fixes your cooker after doing a 1 week course is an Engineer. This naturally confuses people and leads them to believe this is the type of career/work you would do after college- when in fact Engineering is more more diverse and challenging than most people realise.

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

3) Engineers seem to have a very low media profile, the only person who comes to mind is John Power (Engineers Ireland). Raising the media profile of Engineers and engineering achievements in Ireland would go a long way to educating people about the profession.

Denerick

just-joe wrote: »

I also had a mate who sat on Grafton St with a sign saying "Need some money for a few pints later!" and made 20 euros in an hour!

You do know that your mate isn't just some whacky irritating student type, he's literally a beggar. I'm sure his parents must be proud.

just-joe

Indeed, thats exactly what I said to him "Don't you know you're not just some whacky irritating student type, you're literally a beggar."

And he said "Chill out dude, I just made 20 quid, who gives a fcuk"

And then I thought, hmmm theres definitely one person out there who'd have a sarcy comment to make. And I was right.

Charlington

C.D. wrote: »

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

This is x2 worse if you do computer science.

shay_562

C.D. wrote: »

2) Schools and guidance counselors (at least back in my day) didn't seem to have the same level of knowledge about Engineering that they had about Science/Medicine/Business degrees. The knowledge they did have was relevant to Civil Engineers and my questions were greeted with a vague "Oh, you'll build roads and bridges".

For what it's worth, the guidance counsellors at my school didn't have a bollox notion about Business, Psychology or Arts-based courses either. As a general rule, secondary school counsellors seem to be a bit useless.

TheAmateur

What's the story with this Project Maths? The "overview" on the webpage isn't exactly a mine of information. And is it true they're thinking of letting people who fail maths into courses, or was this just another one of Coughlan's gaffes (think it was her who said it)?

Denerick

just-joe wrote: »

Indeed, thats exactly what I said to him "Don't you know you're not just some whacky irritating student type, you're literally a beggar."

And he said "Chill out dude, I just made 20 quid, who gives a fcuk"

And then I thought, hmmm theres definitely one person out there who'd have a sarcy comment to make. And I was right.

Oh for Christs sake, he uses the word 'dude'? I don't know him and I already assume he's a horrible wanker.

just-joe

shay_562 wrote: »

For what it's worth, the guidance counsellors at my school didn't have a bollox notion about Business, Psychology or Arts-based courses either.

Seems we can conclude guidance counsellors don't have a bollox notion about anything.

@Denerick - FYI using the word "dude" is actually cool. Get with it dude.

ainrialai

This thread has got a bit of topic.anyone else hoping to do engineering in trinity.what points you hoping for?

brownacid

Aim to get at least higher than the ucd points and you'l be guaranteed your spot pretty much

ApeXaviour

claire h wrote: »

Is that 200 points for honours maths across the board, regardless what course you've applied for? Because that does seem a tad idiotic.

Agreed, that would just unbalance the system in the opposite direction. However I think it's a great idea for courses like Engineering, MSISS, Economics, Finance, Science, Medicine, CS etc.

whenever

ApeXaviour wrote: »

Agreed, that would just unbalance the system in the opposite direction. However I think it's a great idea for courses like Engineering, MSISS, Economics, Finance, Science, Medicine, CS etc.

Its objective is to increase the number of LC student who opt for HC Maths. This is not intended to simply raise the apparent points for Engineering etc rather it will improve the overall educational attainment of the LC cohort. We have too few school leavers/graduates with HC maths and this is generally recognised as being partly because the time required for the subject is substantially greater than for others.
I do have a concern that the bonus will be discriminatory towards students from poorer areas. There, schools generally have lower (or zero) numbers taking HC maths and pupils do not have access to outside school grinds etc