Indo Front Page: 'Rugby schools tackled over body-building supplements'

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Hope this isn't a repost but read this in the shop today, on front page of Indo. Opinions?!

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/rugby-schools-tackled-over-bodybuilding-supplements-2207320.html

This is my favourite line:

Unlike performance enhancing drugs, muscle-building supplements are not illegal and are easily purchased over the counter.

... as can steak and eggs be purchased over the counter, should they be made illegal?

d'Oracle

This is actually a very different kettle of fish to the last article which we had.

This one raises some interesting points.
But obviously there is a stupid and ignorant link being made between performance enhancing drugs and food supplements.

I might do a letter.

nobbo

Same guy?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055551563

d'Oracle

No.

Davei141

ISC chairman Ossie Kilkenny said: "I was in a house and saw a letter from a school asking for a cheque for €280 for supplements when the child in question was standing there flexing his muscles.

Zamboni

Love this bit

Only three Irish athletes -- one each in motorsport, motorcycling and a League of Ireland (soccer) player -- failed drugs tests last year, but all were for recreational drugs rather than for performance enhancement.

Irish athletes don't cheat, they just get off their faces

Leaving supplement use aside for a minute, our teenagers are years behind our American, Australian and New Zealand counterparts in physical development.
Something simple like a rope climb, whilst a normal part of a physical education programme in the US, would be very difficult to our lads.
I'd argue that supplement use is unnecessary for teenagers but at least give them a fighting chance with some decent PE.

squod

Zamboni wrote: »

Love this bit


Irish athletes don't cheat, they just get off their faces

Leaving supplement use aside for a minute, our teenagers are years behind our American, Australian and New Zealand counterparts in physical development.
Something simple like a rope climb, whilst a normal part of a physical education programme in the US, would be very difficult to our lads.
I'd argue that supplement use is unnecessary for teenagers but at least give them a fighting chance with some decent PE.

Jaysus, dunno what kinda school you went to.

amacachi

Maybe there's something good in that article but I stopped reading after the first two paragraphs.
If someone was drinking 3-4 litres of milk or having 8-10 eggs a day instead would that be OK? Since they're "safe"? ****ing hell.

cc87

Same article was in the examiner as well

brianthebard

squod wrote: »

Jaysus, dunno what kinda school you went to.

One where they don't have a rope, like many others I imagine.

Danger781

To be honest I've never seen or heard of this being done where I live. I know quite a few lads on rugby teams and while they may be pretty big, it's all natural. At least with the guys I know it is. :eek:

Then again, we don't attend a rugby school..

itsallaboutheL

is it that eejit from UCC again??

cc87

Although this article mentions performance enhancing drugs more then previous ones, I think the the fact that some rugby schools advise the use of protein supplements without giving any real advice when it comes to improving the diets of there pupils is a far greater problem. IMO a good diet is far more advantageous when it comes to field sports.

I know of one school in particular that advised all its rugby players to have at least one protein shake a day. When a few changes to their diet would have achieved similar, maybe even better results.

itsallaboutheL

cc87 wrote: »

Although this article mentions performance enhancing drugs more then previous ones, I think the the fact that some rugby schools advise the use of protein supplements without giving any real advice when it comes to improving the diets of there pupils is a far greater problem. IMO a good diet is far more advantageous when it comes to field sports.

I know of one school in particular that advised all its rugby players to have at least one protein shake a day. When a few changes to their diet would have achieved similar, maybe even better results.

Am.... it is a change in their diet?

Danger781

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Am.... it is a change in their diet?

He means changing to a proper healthy diet that is focused on protein intake, rather than taking supplements.

d'Oracle

What confuses me is that there seems to be an implication that it is new to be pushing kids to get real-ass big to entertain their Daddies during "THE CUP" while their Mummies all preen for each other in a vain attempt to repeat how things were when they were young, is a new thing.

itsallaboutheL

Danger781 wrote: »

He means changing to a proper healthy diet that is focused on protein intake, rather than taking supplements.

he's talking about taking a ****ing protein supplement.

It's not unhealthy.

thirdmantackle

you will find much of the vitriol over this is directed towards creatine and the other stuff often included in training supplements

its bit silly for 16-18 year olds being encouraged to take this stuff

itsallaboutheL

thirdmantackle wrote: »

you will find much of the vitriol over this is directed towards creatine and the other stuff often included in training supplements

Other Stuff?? BCAAs, Glutamine, Fish Oil??

All which are naturally occuring and none of which are illegal/banned substances.

its bit silly for 16-18 year olds being encouraged to take this stuff

Why?

Zamboni

To be honest I think this is a non thread to anybody who has actually coached teenagers.
Supplements should be used (as always) either as a convenience or as a means to an end.
They are not there to turn kids into 'gladiators'.
Real food will have the same, if not better consequences than a variety of supplements for a growing teenager.

I don't know too much about kids in secondary school these days but my PE was effectively a teacher chucking a soccer/rugby/gaelic ball into a crowd of 40 students while he went off for a fag and a coffee after making us do 4 laps of the pitch.

Teenagers in schools are missing out on a whole variety of strength exercises that are taken as a given in other countries. I've coached 14 year old kiwis that would dwarf 18 year old Irish kids. Show me a kid in Junior Cert year who can perform 30 pull ups and I will be genuinely surprised (Unless Barry trained them of course).

I see skinny kids every day sucking supplements in a variety of different schools to no avail.
The problem is not supplement abuse, it is the lack of physical education to assist youngsters develop natural competitive physiques.

Blaming supplements is just an easy journalistic spiel.

SugarHigh

Danger781 wrote: »

To be honest I've never seen or heard of this being done where I live. I know quite a few lads on rugby teams and while they may be pretty big, it's all natural. At least with the guys I know it is. :eek:

Then again, we don't attend a rugby school..

As opposed to people who take supplements?

David Jones

I have been a PE teacher and rugby coach for the last 14 years. I have never nor will never recommend a supplement to a teenager. Diet advice is always given, protein in diet can be improved, good fats, good carbs, less junk, proper hydratio, plenty of fresh, fruit and vegetables, and plenty of sleep. For senior students and more and more these days juniors students, avoiding alcohol and cigarettes is far more important than any supplementation when it comes to sports performance.

I don't know too much about kids in secondary school these days but my PE was effectively a teacher chucking a soccer/rugby/gaelic ball into a crowd of 40 students while he went off for a fag and a coffee after making us do 4 laps of the pitch.

Im sorry that was your experience in PE, but that is not the case in the majority of schools. My students get to train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA, do gymnastics, dance, health related PE using treadmills and rowers etc at the local gym, and a variety of ball games including, tennis,softball,cricket,rugby,football, gaelic, hurling, american football, hockey, badminton, volleyball. The get to rockclimb, orienteer, hill walk, kayak, and use trampolines. PE in 2010 is not throwing a ball to a group of 40 students and if it is, I guarantee the teacher is not a PE specialist.

Teenagers in schools are missing out on a whole variety of strength exercises that are taken as a given in other countries. I've coached 14 year old kiwis that would dwarf 18 year old Irish kids. Show me a kid in Junior Cert year who can perform 30 pull ups and I will be genuinely surprised (Unless Barry trained them of course).

I see skinny kids every day sucking supplements in a variety of different schools to no avail.
The problem is not supplement abuse, it is the lack of physical education to assist youngsters develop natural competitive physiques.

I have second year kids who can bust out 30 pull ups, they train crossfit style workouts, they can snatch, clean and jerk, use kettlebells, gymnastic rings, sledgehammers, flip tyres, deadlift, bench, squat, you name it they can do it.

I spend 2 hours every day after school, the entire school year (and believe it or not as a public sector worker, during my holidays too) coaching and training kids in rugby and gym usage and I know plenty of PE teachers doing the same. 14 year old kiwis might just be genetically predisposed to being larger than their irish counterparts, Im sure the vast majority of dutch students are taller at the same age etc etc

We live in a country that thrives on using and abusing alcohol and junk food for any and every occasion, its passed on to our kids, if not by parents, by peers and peers parents. To get "locked" is the goal of many of the teenagers of this country, not to improve their lifting technique on c&J or perform a muscle up. That isnt the fault of PE teachers and coaches, its parents and society in general.

Here is a photo of a crossfit games style competition I ran for 14 - 18 year olds at the end of this year.

http://crossfit.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/sportday.jpg

PE is not the problem (there are cases of lousy PE teachers like in any job) Irish society is the problem. Obesity is on the rise, PE teachers arent feeding your kids, and advice is exactly that words unless acted upon.

d'Oracle

thirdmantackle wrote: »

you will find much of the vitriol over this is directed towards creatine and the other stuff often included in training supplements

its bit silly for 16-18 year olds being encouraged to take this stuff

Its not.
They are certain compounds isolated from the food source, to allow increased intake. This is actually common practice, there is a huge industry built around this concept. But its usually referred to as "health food".

The problem arises when people put a picture of a man in a thong or a rugby player on the cover/ads and imply that it promotes muscle growth. This sets alarm bells in the heads of the ignorant. Who equate taking anything to assist muscle growth to drug abuse. Protein which (along with creatine) is the issue we are talking about, is something that can be gotten from a large amount of food, but not as easily.

I reckon growing muscles in your mid to late teens is pretty much natural.
The "muppet from UCC" as L put it, is implying that developing muscle is dangerous for athletes later in life, I would suggest that poor training or poor player management would be more likely. There are plenty of examples of sportsmen who came to the top flight very young and lead a career filled with injury.

I'd like to hear the opinion of someone a bit more knowledgeable on this, but I would be more concerned about kids getting big muscles through poorly performed isolation exercises and suffering from tendon joint issues as a result. As opposed to being properly trained, developing joint integrity alongside strength and mass and being properly rehabbed from Injury. (That last bit being my biggest worry.)

The usual applies: I Don't know much bout anything, open to contradiction yadda blah blah.....

Zamboni

@ David Jones

I am honestly delighted to hear what you do but there is no way you are in the majority of PE teachers in this country.
Keep up the good work

Dazd_N_Confusd

David Jones wrote: »

I have been a PE teacher and rugby coach for the last 14 years. I have never nor will never recommend a supplement to a teenager. Diet advice is always given, protein in diet can be improved, good fats, good carbs, less junk, proper hydratio, plenty of fresh, fruit and vegetables, and plenty of sleep. For senior students and more and more these days juniors students, avoiding alcohol and cigarettes is far more important than any supplementation when it comes to sports performance.



Im sorry that was your experience in PE, but that is not the case in the majority of schools. My students get to train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA, do gymnastics, dance, health related PE using treadmills and rowers etc at the local gym, and a variety of ball games including, tennis,softball,cricket,rugby,football, gaelic, hurling, american football, hockey, badminton, volleyball. The get to rockclimb, orienteer, hill walk, kayak, and use trampolines. PE in 2010 is not throwing a ball to a group of 40 students and if it is, I guarantee the teacher is not a PE specialist.



I have second year kids who can bust out 30 pull ups, they train crossfit style workouts, they can snatch, clean and jerk, use kettlebells, gymnastic rings, sledgehammers, flip tyres, deadlift, bench, squat, you name it they can do it.

I spend 2 hours every day the entire school year (and believe it or not as a public sector worker, during my holidays too) coaching and training kids in rugby and gym usage and I know plenty of PE teachers doing the same. 14 year old kiwis might just be genetically predisposed to being larger than their irish counterparts, Im sure the vast majority of dutch students are taller at the same age etc etc

We live in a country that thrives on using and abusing alcohol and junk food for any and every occasion, its passed on to our kids, if not by parents, by peers and peers parents. To get "locked" is the goal of many of the teenagers of this country, not to improve their lifting technique on c&J or perform a muscle up. That isnt the fault of PE teachers and coaches, its parents and society in general.

Here is a photo of a crossfit games style competition I ran for 14 - 18 year olds at the end of this year.

http://crossfit.ie/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/sportday.jpg

PE is not the problem (there are cases of lousy PE teachers like in any job) Irish society is the problem. Obesity is on the rise, PE teachers arent feeding your kids, and advice is exactly that words unless acted upon.

I really wish you were around when I was in school, rather then the teachers who made fun of fat people because they done crap in the Bleep test.

Chris89

i wrote them a letter on friday morning, probably not as well worded as it could have been but the intention was there;

Dear Editor,



I was reading the above article and wondering what relevance recreational drugs, performance enhancing drugs and Irish Athletes failing drug tests has to the topic. I was also compelled to comment on some of the points put across;



The reality of the situation is these supplements are all derived from food sources, dairy and soy products in most cases (protein powders) and for a mass building supplement (used to “bulk up” as it was so eloquently put in the article) there is usually carbohydrate in the form of ground oats or sugar. There is also Creatine which is produced by the human body and also found in Red Meats.



I realise the article is quoting a “leading sports scientist”, but I would like to highlight some very important FACTS.



All the above supplements contain nutrients that could be found in whole foods, red and white meats for protein, red meats for creatine and carbohydratess in vegetables, fruit, rolled oats etc. Unfortunately in 2010, it is these healthy foods that cost the most in your local supermarket while kids can buy sweets, crisps and fizzy drinks for less than their bus fare.



Supplementing their diet with these products (and that’s what it is, supplementing a healthy diet, not replacing meals) is a cheap and practical alternative to eating large ‘meat and two veg’ type dinners throughout the day.



In order to “bulk up” an individual needs to consume surplus calories to their maintenance level, essentially eat more calories then they are burning in a day. While supplements are obviously not required for this, I stress that they are a much more economical and practical alternative.



I quote from the article; "You can see tribunals about this in 20 years' time," he warned, saying the practice was not exclusive to school rugby, but that was the guiltiest party.



The only side effect from any of these products I have ever heard or read about is a low level of water retention from creatine, how that is hazardous I do not know. I am also baffled as to what relevance this would ever have in a tribunal



The parents of these kids will more than likely be supplementing their diet as we speak with fish oil tablets, multivitamins etc. The level of hypocrisy is laughable. What, I ask, is the difference (apart from the obvious one) of supplementing your diet with omega 3 fatty acids(fish oils), and supplementing your diet with Amino Acids (protein)?



I for one would be far more inclined to let my teenager sip on a protein shake after a training session then let him eat pizza and chips and sit in front of the television every week.



Regards,



Chris Leddy

Danger781

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

he's talking about taking a ****ing protein supplement.

It's not unhealthy.

I never said protein shakes were unhealthy I said the same results can be achieved from eating a healthy diet.

SugarHigh wrote: »

As opposed to people who take supplements?

Yup

Davei141

Danger781 wrote: »

Yup

There you have it folks, if you take protein shakes your muscle isn't "natural". Why is it always the most ignorant who like to give their ill informed 2c into this topic?

Bottle_of_Smoke

cc87 wrote: »

I know of one school in particular that advised all its rugby players to have at least one protein shake a day. When a few changes to their diet would have achieved similar, maybe even better results.

In practical terms it wouldn't though. The school knows the parents make the meals for a whole family. Get them to drink a shake they'll still eat the meals. Ask them to change their diet they prob won't be arsed

brianthebard

Danger781 wrote: »

I never said protein shakes were unhealthy I said the same results can be achieved from eating a healthy diet.

If protein shakes aren't unhealthy, then including them in your diet does not affect the 'healthiness' of the overall diet negatively or positively. Ergo they are a part of a healthy diet.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

In practical terms it wouldn't though. The school knows the parents make the meals for a whole family. Get them to drink a shake they'll still eat the meals. Ask them to change their diet they prob won't be arsed

This, a thousand times this. Protein shakes are probably the cheapest and easiest way of adding anywhere between 20 and 100g of protein to a persons diet without impacting their ability to eat the rest of their meals. Its just simple, that's why 'teh kidz' are having them.

thirdmantackle

I cannot see how anyone could encourage teenagers to take supplements. its setting them up for bad habits all through life - ie taking short cuts

surely they should be educated about proper nutrition and training habits - eating, sleeping, hydration etc

along with proper training methods